• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

huraga

Neophyte
Nov 19, 2020
102
170
135
Artificial Intelligence engineer and you?

Im engineer in computer sciencie (6 years in Europe with project included (old system)) and I have three masters, one in electronics, another in java, and one mba. Also i was studying 3 years electronics before start computer science.

Also I was working as Java dev for 5 years, Android dev and before that like a system administrator.

I have knowledge in ASM 8086, Pascal, Cobol, C++, Python, BBDD, HTML5 and CSS3.

Currently I´m general manager in a manufacturer company from 7 years ago.

Oh yes, i started programming computers with 8 years, I have 45 now.
 
Last edited:

draliko

Member
Aug 15, 2015
299
341
405
what the fuck, when this place turned into linkedin? Are we now comparing e-dicks again but on qualification this time (instead of framerates?)? I mean come on :) naturally joking, but as time passes seems like no one is actually playing games no more, just counting frames and reflections :messenger_grinning_sweat::messenger_winking_tongue:
 

Mr Moose

Member
Sep 10, 2013
4,539
8,732
815
England
Im engineer in computer sciencie (6 years in Europe with project included (old system)) and I have three masters, one in electronics, another in java, and one mba. Also i was studying 3 years electronics before start computer science.

Also I was working as Java dev for 5 years, Android dev and before that like a system administrator.

I have knowledge in ASM 8086, Pascal, Cobol, C++, Python, BBDD, HTML5 and CSS3.

Currently I´m general manager in a manufacturer company from 7 years ago.

Oh yes, i started programming computers with 8 years, I have 45 now.
Toast.makeText(iamhungry.this,"I want some toast",Toast.LENGTH_SHORT).show();
 

Setsuna Mudou

Member
May 29, 2020
523
3,009
435
In an attempt to try and show the ps5 version at its worst, you accidentally left the graphic which shows the xbox frame time dipping to 33.3 ms. You know that's 30 fps right? :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Talk about self own lol
 

IllegalLemon

Member
Jan 18, 2020
220
928
295
Some great insight into coherency for those interested in diving into the nitty-gritty stuff regarding its uses. Could be invaluable in helping to deepen understanding about coherency in general. This is the article if you're interested. It's a great read!!!
 

draliko

Member
Aug 15, 2015
299
341
405
Alright, put the weapons down for a sec, I need to elicit the help of the Gaf forensics team
i say control, but i might be wrong, but is the first thing that comes to my mind with the sinister red light
 
Last edited:

Elog

Member
Aug 28, 2016
490
1,844
460
Anyway only the time will be explain this.

Well, trust in engineers and professionals, I guess they thought in bottlenecks before you. I´m repeating all the time, to judge a system you need to know the system in deep.

Not any system gets the maximum performance ever but I´m pretty sure that Xbox has a lot to say and we can´t put in doubt this only for a few shitty games with non elite devs.

I think a lot of people here overvalue developers and a lot of them aren't as smart as they think. They make a lot of mistakes.

You seem to think I do not believe MS hardware engineers are any good. Why would they create those bottle-necks that seemingly seems to riddle the XSX?

Fair question. Fortunately, we know that basics of the answer.

While Sony set out to do one thing - create the best gaming machine possible within a cost envelope of 499 USD, Microsoft did something else with the same cost envelope.

Microsoft set out to do 3 things at the same time and the boundary conditions were: The APU needs to be able to run as 4 Xbox one S consoles in a server configuration, the APU needs to ensure hardware based backward compatibility with Xbox One (no patches required by developers) and the APU needs to scale across two models (XSX and XSS).

Every boundary condition per above adds sub-optimizations. We can discuss the size and nature of those sub-optimisations but they are there. The most likely performance we see right now are the result of those sub-optimisations.

So this is not a case of bad engineering,. It is two approaches that succeeded with what they set out to do.
 
Last edited:

raul3d

Member
Mar 30, 2020
74
294
220
Im engineer in computer sciencie (6 years in Europe with project included (old system)) and I have three masters, one in electronics, another in java, and one mba. Also i was studying 3 years electronics before start computer science.

Also I was working as Java dev for 5 years, Android dev and before that like a system administrator.

I have knowledge in ASM 8086, Pascal, Cobol, C++, Python, BBDD, HTML5 and CSS3.

Currently I´m general manager in a manufacturer company from 7 years ago.

Oh yes, i started programming computers with 8 years, I have 45 now.
I can't even say if you are serious or not. Your knowledge list is quite odd, to say the least, listing ASM and HTML5/CSS3 in the same sentence. Not that I doubt your list, but I never understood the point of posting your resume online for no reason.

So anyways: What did you program with 8 years and what does BBDD stand for?
 
T

Three Jackdaws

Unconfirmed Member

as predicted he dropped some interesting nuggets
  • Sony being coy with the PS5 internals and deep technical features was mostly because of the bad reception of the Road to PS5 talk, there was an internal mandate from Jim Ryan himself and developers also followed suit hence the very slow drip of information
  • CPU is Zen 2 with a unified 8MB L3 cache (confirmed by two developers), there is no option to turn off SMT of the CPU. The unified cache allows significantly lower latency when accessing the cache memory.
  • One CPU core is dedicated to operating system and similar functionality which leaves the rest of the 7 cores for developers
  • The DDR4 chip is for SSD caching and OS tasks, developers will completely ignore this.
  • PS5 does not feature Sampler Feedback Streaming however there are tools which offer similar results/functionality by developers (however it's a little more complicated)
  • PS5's Primitive Shaders are much more advanced than the ones used in RDNA 1 and allow "extreme" levels of precision to the GPU
  • VRS also runs on "extreme" precision with the Geometry Engine
  • Unreal Engine 5's "Nanite" technology was making good use of the PS5's Geometry Engine and has been the best showcase of the GE so far
  • The cache scrubbers have been overlooked and are not getting enough attention, according the the developer they offer a significant speedup of the GPU and reduce a lot of overhead
  • The Tempest Engine is already being used by developers for CPU related tasks and is great at things like physics
  • PS5's compute unit architecture is pretty much the same as that in the desktop implementation of RDNA 2 and the Series X
There's a bunch of other stuff too which I left out which he was re-confirming in this video as well like the PS5 being designed around "raw geometry throughput and data latency". I recommend watching the whole video.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Metroiddarks

Member
Mar 3, 2020
1,655
6,858
420
Im engineer in computer sciencie (6 years in Europe with project included (old system)) and I have three masters, one in electronics, another in java, and one mba. Also i was studying 3 years electronics before start computer science.

Also I was working as Java dev for 5 years, Android dev and before that like a system administrator.

I have knowledge in ASM 8086, Pascal, Cobol, C++, Python, BBDD, HTML5 and CSS3.

Currently I´m general manager in a manufacturer company from 7 years ago.

Oh yes, i started programming computers with 8 years, I have 45 now.
So you really think Treyarch and Ubisoft doesn't have elite devs? for the resumen you wrote I don't see any related to game development that explain your
conclusions.

I am sure you wrote your resume as way to impress, which doesn't works so much as many of your knowledge is share by a big majority of our colleagues,
probably is for your age but give an advice don't share too much your personal info using a nickname is not linkedin and I never ask for those details.

BTW I have years without hear about Cobol.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: roops67

azertydu91

Member
Sep 11, 2013
1,644
3,094
670
France
Meanwhile Garani in his/her normal life:


Jokes aside the degrees doesn't matter I know high school kids with better technical skills
than mine as well as I have better skills than many people who use their master's degrees
as a way to show off.
Degrees are important, I had 3rd degrees burns and they were important...
Now I will retire since I will be canceled on twitter.
 

Garani

Member
Oct 22, 2014
562
1,923
555
Im engineer in computer sciencie (6 years in Europe with project included (old system)) and I have three masters, one in electronics, another in java, and one mba. Also i was studying 3 years electronics before start computer science.

Also I was working as Java dev for 5 years, Android dev and before that like a system administrator.

I have knowledge in ASM 8086, Pascal, Cobol, C++, Python, BBDD, HTML5 and CSS3.

Currently I´m general manager in a manufacturer company from 7 years ago.

Oh yes, i started programming computers with 8 years, I have 45 now.

Honestly, I would feel embarassed to declare any knowledge of HTML(5!), CSS(3!), Pascal, Java and Python. Especially Python.

So you really think Treyarch and Ubisoft doesn't have elite devs? for the resumen you wrote I don't see any related to game development that explain your
conclusions.

I am sure you wrote your resume as way to impress, which doesn't works so much as many of your knowledge is share by a big majority of our colleagues,
probably is for your age but give an advice don't share too much your personal info using a nickname is not linkedin and I never ask for those details.

BTW I have years without hear about Cobol.

Cobol has been ruling the world from day 1 and you still haven't caught it. One line of Cobol and all your bank statements go into debt hell forever!
 

DarkParadise

Formerly 'Vaber'
May 29, 2018
253
1,678
480
looks like xbox family will outsell ps5 this holiday in usa
according to benji saels
he deleted his tweet though
anyway i cant wait for the next npd lol
he assumes Xbox will sell more, just because the demand for the PS5 is too high and people literally can't get their hands on a PS5. But i still doubt that people will buy a Xbox because of doubt. I think people who were determined to get a PS5 will just wait until they can get one.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dec 29, 2018
3,220
9,257
705
Im engineer in computer sciencie (6 years in Europe with project included (old system)) and I have three masters, one in electronics, another in java, and one mba. Also i was studying 3 years electronics before start computer science.

Also I was working as Java dev for 5 years, Android dev and before that like a system administrator.

I have knowledge in ASM 8086, Pascal, Cobol, C++, Python, BBDD, HTML5 and CSS3.

Currently I´m general manager in a manufacturer company from 7 years ago.

Oh yes, i started programming computers with 8 years, I have 45 now.
 

Metroiddarks

Member
Mar 3, 2020
1,655
6,858
420
Honestly, I would feel embarassed to declare any knowledge of HTML(5!), CSS(3!), Pascal, Java and Python. Especially Python.



Cobol has been ruling the world from day 1 and you still haven't caught it. One line of Cobol and all your bank statements go into debt hell forever!
Yes I found funny how he thinks those skills are special accordly to his resume the guy barely touch the UI or web page development in general so
probably his knowledge in CSS and HTML is very close to a student at least he changed the approach of his career in some moment.


About Cobol yeah I know is old and good for me I don't work in a bank.
 
Last edited:

Dave_at_Home

Member
Jun 19, 2020
964
3,061
375
as predicted he dropped some interesting nuggets
  • Sony being coy with the PS5 internals and deep technical features was mostly because of the bad reception of the Road to PS5 talk, there was an internal mandate from Jim Ryan himself and developers also followed suit hence the very slow drip of information
  • CPU is Zen 2 with a unified 8MB L3 cache (confirmed by two developers), there is no option to turn off SMT of the CPU. The unified cache allows significantly lower latency when accessing the cache memory.
  • One CPU core is dedicated to operating system and similar functionality which leaves the rest of the 7 cores for developers
  • The DDR4 chip is for SSD caching and OS tasks, developers will completely ignore this.
  • PS5 does not feature Sampler Feedback Streaming however there are tools which offer similar results/functionality by developers (however it's a little more complicated)
  • PS5's Primitive Shaders are much more advanced than the ones used in RDNA 1 and allow "extreme" levels of precision to the GPU
  • VRS also runs on "extreme" precision with the Geometry Engine
  • Unreal Engine 5's "Nanite" technology was making good use of the PS5's Geometry Engine and has been the best showcase of the GE so far
  • The cache scrubbers have been overlooked and are not getting enough attention, according the the developer they offer a significant speedup of the GPU and reduce a lot of overhead
  • The Tempest Engine is already being used by developers for CPU related tasks and is great at things like physics
  • PS5's compute unit architecture is pretty much the same as that in the desktop implementation of RDNA 2 and the Series X
There's a bunch of other stuff too which I left out which he was re-confirming in this video as well like the PS5 being designed around "raw geometry throughput and data latency". I recommend watching the whole video.
Pretty obvious at this point that neither console has infinity cache. Although, it seems the cache scrubbers essentially produce the same results. If Timdog or any of the other FUD patrol wants to understand why the PS5 is matching, or exceeding, Series X, than they should watch this video.
 

Garani

Member
Oct 22, 2014
562
1,923
555
Meanwhile Garani in his/her normal life:


Jokes aside the degrees doesn't matter I know high school kids with better technical skills
than mine as well as I have better skills than many people who use their master's degrees
as a way to show off.

I have the outmost respect for degrees and for the pain of learning that everyone goes through. Fuck I can't cut meat like my butcher does, and he doesn't have a degree. I can't raise veggies like a farmer does, and he doesn't have a degree. I can't make a pizza like the chef in the restaurant, and he doesn't have a degree. I can't enjoy my PS5 if that cool guy that drives a red van didn't deliver it to me, and he doesn't have a degree.

Everyone is important and does its best to be productive in society. For this reason I mock whoever flexes a degree in a stupid discussion. Degrees are important, but is not the only learning path that is available out there. Without a builder, a carpenter and a plumber, an architect or an engineer would be sitting ducks.
 

Metroiddarks

Member
Mar 3, 2020
1,655
6,858
420
I have the outmost respect for degrees and for the pain of learning that everyone goes through. Fuck I can't cut meat like my butcher does, and he doesn't have a degree. I can't raise veggies like a farmer does, and he doesn't have a degree. I can't make a pizza like the chef in the restaurant, and he doesn't have a degree. I can't enjoy my PS5 if that cool guy that drives a red van didn't deliver it to me, and he doesn't have a degree.

Everyone is important and does its best to be productive in society. For this reason I mock whoever flexes a degree in a stupid discussion. Degrees are important, but is not the only learning path that is available out there. Without a builder, a carpenter and a plumber, an architect or an engineer would be sitting ducks.

When I was a kid/tennager I work with my father as photographer and electrician and with my mother as baker I know
what is work since I was a child I feel prod of my parents to teach me that.

For me a degree was just a way to learn from good teachers and be able to found a good work faster but I know people who
did the same without that.

But there are people who do and work with cobol on a daily basis. And your financial wellness is in their hands. No pressure, bro :D
Believe me I don't need them to ruin my financial situation I can do it myself.

oh wow. While I was busy playing games, people have been busy with posting resumes in a gaming forum. life is full of surprises.

This the beginning of NeoLinkedin, just a bunch of people trying to draw attention to themselves but more fun.
 
Last edited:

LiquidRex

Member
Jan 21, 2020
848
2,863
370
as predicted he dropped some interesting nuggets
  • Sony being coy with the PS5 internals and deep technical features was mostly because of the bad reception of the Road to PS5 talk, there was an internal mandate from Jim Ryan himself and developers also followed suit hence the very slow drip of information
  • CPU is Zen 2 with a unified 8MB L3 cache (confirmed by two developers), there is no option to turn off SMT of the CPU. The unified cache allows significantly lower latency when accessing the cache memory.
  • One CPU core is dedicated to operating system and similar functionality which leaves the rest of the 7 cores for developers
  • The DDR4 chip is for SSD caching and OS tasks, developers will completely ignore this.
  • PS5 does not feature Sampler Feedback Streaming however there are tools which offer similar results/functionality by developers (however it's a little more complicated)
  • PS5's Primitive Shaders are much more advanced than the ones used in RDNA 1 and allow "extreme" levels of precision to the GPU
  • VRS also runs on "extreme" precision with the Geometry Engine
  • Unreal Engine 5's "Nanite" technology was making good use of the PS5's Geometry Engine and has been the best showcase of the GE so far
  • The cache scrubbers have been overlooked and are not getting enough attention, according the the developer they offer a significant speedup of the GPU and reduce a lot of overhead
  • The Tempest Engine is already being used by developers for CPU related tasks and is great at things like physics
  • PS5's compute unit architecture is pretty much the same as that in the desktop implementation of RDNA 2 and the Series X
There's a bunch of other stuff too which I left out which he was re-confirming in this video as well like the PS5 being designed around "raw geometry throughput and data latency". I recommend watching the whole video.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
43,381
83,650
1,335

What gets annoying about his videos now and I noticed this with a few tech Youtubers, they literally have to fellate the competing console with little plugs or say good fluffy Carebear disclaimers out of the fear that their comment sections will be attacked by fanatical cunts.

Videos can never just completely focus on the content at hand.

Rich from ReviewTechUSA does this constantly. Spent literally the first minute or two of the “Xbox being bricked by Call of Duty“ video talking about PS5 issues like he needed a disclaimer or fanboy preemptive “whatabout” shield. Though he seems to do it in one direction more often than the other.

It’s so mentally numbing. Nobody can just focus in context since fanaticunts lack nuance.
 

dotnotbot

Member
Feb 9, 2019
325
986
320


I am really confused right now... I thought HDMI 2.0 would not degradade colour gamut at all. Is it problem with only Spider Man? Damn I got 2.0 HDMI TV with peak brightness around 1500 nits and damn... that makes me sad.

So there might be something wrong with whole PS5 when it comes to downconverting Full RGB to YCC 422. Vincent needs to test more PS5 games.
 

geordiemp

Member
Sep 5, 2013
11,804
24,473
1,010
UK
as predicted he dropped some interesting nuggets
  • Sony being coy with the PS5 internals and deep technical features was mostly because of the bad reception of the Road to PS5 talk, there was an internal mandate from Jim Ryan himself and developers also followed suit hence the very slow drip of information
  • CPU is Zen 2 with a unified 8MB L3 cache (confirmed by two developers), there is no option to turn off SMT of the CPU. The unified cache allows significantly lower latency when accessing the cache memory.
  • One CPU core is dedicated to operating system and similar functionality which leaves the rest of the 7 cores for developers
  • The DDR4 chip is for SSD caching and OS tasks, developers will completely ignore this.
  • PS5 does not feature Sampler Feedback Streaming however there are tools which offer similar results/functionality by developers (however it's a little more complicated)
  • PS5's Primitive Shaders are much more advanced than the ones used in RDNA 1 and allow "extreme" levels of precision to the GPU
  • VRS also runs on "extreme" precision with the Geometry Engine
  • Unreal Engine 5's "Nanite" technology was making good use of the PS5's Geometry Engine and has been the best showcase of the GE so far
  • The cache scrubbers have been overlooked and are not getting enough attention, according the the developer they offer a significant speedup of the GPU and reduce a lot of overhead
  • The Tempest Engine is already being used by developers for CPU related tasks and is great at things like physics
  • PS5's compute unit architecture is pretty much the same as that in the desktop implementation of RDNA 2 and the Series X
There's a bunch of other stuff too which I left out which he was re-confirming in this video as well like the PS5 being designed around "raw geometry throughput and data latency". I recommend watching the whole video.

He added no information that was not already known or in sony patents / road to Ps5. Nothing. No unique information at all.
 
Last edited:
May 7, 2014
499
739
580
Ireland
Honestly, I would feel embarassed to declare any knowledge of HTML(5!), CSS(3!), Pascal, Java and Python. Especially Python.

Really, Python, the most ubiquitous machine learning language in the world? Built on Fortran Math functions? Really?

Java? CSS3? Hell, I found an issue in CSS that required knowledge of framebuffers back in 2006 to solve.

Stop posturing. Every language is a tool and has it's use. I've pretty much programmed any you care to mention professionally, . hell, even MUMPS!
 

elite09

Member
May 18, 2013
2,571
647
630
Madrid, Spain
www.musicapararunners.com
He added no information that was not already known or in sony patents / road to Ps5. Nothing. No unique information at all.

And the CPU L3 cache being only 8MB sounds like complete bullshit to me. I'm pretty sure Sony is trying to reduce as much as possible how much bandwidth the CPU takes from the GPU. This is the complete opposite of that.

So they have build, according to him, these amazing cache management precisely to improve hit rates and improve overall bandwidth but then they decide to give the CPU an L3 that is 1/4 the size of the commercial CPUs.
 

LiquidRex

Member
Jan 21, 2020
848
2,863
370
And the CPU L3 cache being only 8MB sounds like complete bullshit to me. I'm pretty sure Sony is trying to reduce as much as possible how much bandwidth the CPU takes from the GPU. This is the complete opposite of that.

So they have build, according to him, these amazing cache management precisely to improve hit rates and improve overall bandwidth but then they decide to give the CPU an L3 that is 1/4 the size of the commercial CPUs.
I'm sure the PS5 CPU cache is similar to that of Zen 3, so thus more efficient. 🤔
 
  • LOL
Reactions: onesvenus

Garani

Member
Oct 22, 2014
562
1,923
555
Really, Python, the most ubiquitous machine learning language in the world? Built on Fortran Math functions? Really?

Python is shit. I know that it triggers a lot of people, but when I see banks asking Python competencies for their traders, I feel vindicated. I did think it was buzz-bloatware 15 years ago, I do think it now. And my best friend makes a living with python, mind you :D
 

sircaw

has bigger MS points balance than reaction score.
Jul 3, 2019
5,977
32,545
825
A local pond.
Python is shit. I know that it triggers a lot of people, but when I see banks asking Python competencies for their traders, I feel vindicated. I did think it was buzz-bloatware 15 years ago, I do think it now. And my best friend makes a living with python, mind you :D

Excuse me but the python system is one of the best water change systems available on the market and i guess we are not talking about fish tank stuff, nvm carry on.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Mar 31, 2006
6,325
4,542
1,535
Midlands, UK
And the CPU L3 cache being only 8MB sounds like complete bullshit to me. I'm pretty sure Sony is trying to reduce as much as possible how much bandwidth the CPU takes from the GPU. This is the complete opposite of that.

So they have build, according to him, these amazing cache management precisely to improve hit rates and improve overall bandwidth but then they decide to give the CPU an L3 that is 1/4 the size of the commercial CPUs.

8MB L3 is almost certainly what it has as XSX/XSS APU and Renoir mobile APUs have exactly this. The question is if PS5 does so unified.
 

Metroiddarks

Member
Mar 3, 2020
1,655
6,858
420
Python is shit. I know that it triggers a lot of people, but when I see banks asking Python competencies for their traders, I feel vindicated. I did think it was buzz-bloatware 15 years ago, I do think it now. And my best friend makes a living with python, mind you :D


Btw I will try to ignore the fact HTML is having the same treatment in this discussion as a language like C ++ has
 
May 7, 2014
499
739
580
Ireland
Python is shit. I know that it triggers a lot of people, but when I see banks asking Python competencies for their traders, I feel vindicated. I did think it was buzz-bloatware 15 years ago, I do think it now. And my best friend makes a living with python, mind you :D

Developers are generally where the issues are, not languages.
I've heard plenty of advocates for strongly typed, const correct, static analysis friendly code. It's amazing how much shit code you can write within those boundaries too.
 

Shio

Member
Jan 28, 2020
202
605
265
I think it will be funny to watch the reactions when a dev does make a game that run into compute limits more & it play better on Xbox Series X because people will act as if things have changed & that the tools are finally up to date lol. DF will accept the results & not reach out to the devs telling them to fix the bugs lol.
Cross gen launch games that's all it is, Valhalla now runs better on Xbox, Dirt 5 has a bug in 120hz mode but doesn't have the framerate plummet like PS5 version, Call Of Duty doesn't have the framerate plummets on set pieces like PS5, DMC5 runs better on Xbox on 3 out of 4 modes, Xbox Watch Dogs can reflect puddles. It's actually just a mixed bag at the moment, the launch version of Valhalla was the main problem but that's been corrected quickly to a degree.
Main point is these are all last gen engine games, we'll find out a lot more as we get actual next games on next gen engines.
Ermm, no. For example valhalla runs worse than ps5, DF even said using the latest patch