D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
The whole gaming discussion section is turning into this shit, with pure hate topics about systems we don't know anything about, just the companies that made them...
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Foamy
Unconfirmed Member
I agree. I reported this thread: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/post...y-tracing-crap-please.1519480/#post-256495921 and the mods did nothing.The whole gaming discussion section is turning into this shit, with pure hate topics about systems we don't know anything about, just the companies that made them...
And that's the first time I've ever reported a thread in my life I think.
I'm just sick to death of the console flaming.
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existensmaximum
Member
Be the BEAST - almost as good as "You are the controller!"
Nickolaidas
Banned
BUT MY PLASTIC TOY IS BETTER THAN YOUR PLASTIC TOY !!!!!
TBiddy
Member
Could be an idea with two separate threads, but I don't thinik that wouldn't stop the rampant trolling and misinformation that keeps beeing spread, it would just move it.
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DJ12
Member
Funny you should say that as it appears to be exactly opposite of what's happening, 80% of the neo members are Xbox fans chatting shit I just guess you like what they are saying so it doesn't register.
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Agnostic2020
Member
Last time they had 20 days between invites and event . So if event is mid February they have 9 more days before they send out invites
Imtjnotu
Member
Sony sent out invites to the ps4 event on January 31st 2013. The event was set for February 20th 2013.
It's only the
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
It’s been a little too one sided here recently, I won’t lie. I’ve been chatting to a few people who have noticed the same. Very weird. The moderation has taken a bit of a hit recently. Jokes are lost, and serious attempts at trolling and being a twat are ignored. I myself have gotten 3 points for a joke and telling somebody to calm down. Said person and others have had nothing even though many keep posting babble, insults and generally messing up the joint with misinformation.
One things for sure, new console launches bring out the idiots on both sides. I guess it just depends what side you are on as to if you get slapped. If it stays this insufferable I feel I may go back to era instead. At least there everybody gets banned equally quick for anything tiny lol
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TLZ
Banned
You good there mate?
icerock
Member
No, this isn't necessarily true.
Chip production doesn't follow the linear path which you described i.e. based on size. When you're breaking up a wafer sheet for chips, the resultant chips aren't born equal because they will have variant quality. For example, one chip may have all CUs activated but in order to hit the required clock, draws more power than another chip which will hit the same clocks at lesser power. Then there could be another chip where few CUs are not aligned. There are too many factors at play here. There is a reason why GPU manufacturers prescribe a set of criterias so they can tier their cards.
Why do you think AMD has two different products in form of 5700 and 5700XT when they are made from same wafer? They created two different SKUs because of variance in silicon quality and prescribed few requirements in accordance to which the chips are divided. Chips which are of higher quality are allocated in a 5700XT bin while ones which are of lower quality, go into 5700 bin. Before a chip can be used in 5700XT, it has to tick the requirements of a) 40/40 active CUs b) Reach 1905MHz and c) Draw 225W power at max. The lesser capable chips can be used in 5700 if it a) Has 36/40 active CUs b) Reaches 1725MHz clock speed and c) Draws 180W power at max.
If a chip has 40/40 active CUs but draws 260W of power to reach 1905MHz, it goes in the 5700 bin. Similarly, if a chip has 36/40 active CUs but can reach 1905MHz while drawing 200W of power, it'll still go into 5700 bin. Why? Because the baseline requirements which AMD prescribed for these SKUs are final. The whole idea was conjured up by them in first instance because going narrow and fast significantly reduces the yields. Having a 2nd SKU saves them cost and make this production of narrow and fast chips somewhat feasible.
Now console manufacturers on the other hands, specifically Sony do not have the same luxury of different SKUs. Before they decide on a chip which goes in the final product, they have to decide upon a baseline which is low enough i.e. have a moderate clock speed, hit the required clock speed without any discrepancy between power drawn and thermal targets so majority of chips which are manufactured can be used. The 36CU chip which you are on about is the same chip as used in 5700/5700XT, their requirements would be a) Have 36/40 active CUs, b) Reach 2000MHz clock speed c) Draw ~150W power. Any scenario in testing, when a chip misses any of the requirements has to be binned and unlike AMD they do not have different SKUs where binned chips could be used.
This is the main reason why people who are knowledgeable about these stuff parrot that going narrow and fast for console manufacturers doesn't make any sense because it is much more expensive than going wide and slow. The threshold for chips making the cut is too high, you are basically throwing ton of chips away, and in turn spending more money to make your APU.
60% of sales? I assume you're referring to Xbox 2nd SKU here in Lockhart. First and foremost, the APU size of Series X is ~400mm2 which is ginormous. It makes zero sense to use binned chips of Series X in a Lockhart when it is targeting 1/3rd of total compute power. The cooling, design, form factor would be all be rendered futile if they have to house a chip that big. The APU in Lockhart will be significantly smaller and significantly cheaper to produce.
Take into account what I wrote and you'll realize your simplistic view of smaller chip = more wafers = cheaper = better yields isn't true. A chip with 36CU@2.0 GHz is smaller than a 56CU@1.67GHz but isn't cheaper to produce. Because even though console manufacturers are paying for giant sheets of wafer, regardless of size of the chip, if the threshold/requirement is too high (such as 2.0GHz while drawing ~150W power), they'll end up wasting more chips and therefore more money.
It's pretty abundant that you are not as knowledgeable as you pretend to be.
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FeiRR
Banned
My Pro sounds like a jet engine. I tried replacing the thermal paste and cleaning it to no avail. I generally play in a headset so it's not a huge problem. But I hope it lives till November because it would really suck to have to buy another one right now.
On the other hand, one of the 360s I had generated a terrible high-pitched noise from the fan. It wasn't loud but incredibly annoying. I checked, the fan was Sunon, one of the cheapest off-the-shelf fans you can buy for PC. Nobody with at least a bit of knowledge about building PCs buys that crap. Xbox One has a better solution with one big slowly rotating fan. But at the same time, they put a fan in the separate PSU, what a terrible idea (I mean the fan, separate PSU actually makes it a lot easier to reduce thermals and noise inside the box).
I'm actually more curious about the cooling solution of PS5 than the exact number of TeraFlops it'll have.
llien
Member
I've read a story about 2 CELLS being planned.
But the catch here is that there would be no GPU, chuckle.
Cerny told them to get back to Planet Earth, and so they did.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
No one really knows until we see the games. Everyone is just spitballing the whole time. Obviously you can do more with more power, but then again that doesn't mean they are actually good enough to use that power efficiently. There are so many variables, that we actually don't know anything until we play a game.
CasperDarling
Member
When did he say this? Ever since his GAF days all Matt does is shit on Xbox any chance he can. I always assumed his credibility in regards to being an insider was on the same level of Thuway...........which means he knows nothing
Rightisright
Banned
I'm sure Digital Foundry with their pixel counting and 100x zooms will be able to. But to be honest, its pretty hard to tell the difference between an Xbox One X and Pro game unless you have them in front of you.
The real difference is in the developers. Look what a quality studio on crytek did with Ryse, on the most basic of all the hardware this gen.
We are coming from previous generations where we have bottlenecks in all the systems. Both PS3 and 360 suffered from too small RAM. PS4 and Xbox One suffered from a gimped CPU. I think this gen both consoles wont have such bottlenecks. They will have great CPUs, 16gig of Ram at least, high bandwidth speeds and also the addition of SSDs.
Both should be able to do 4k60 for games. The only thing I can think of is if maybe overusing RT could tax the GPUs too much.
Rightisright
Banned
Go and read Era to see where he said he thinks XSX will have the power edge. Also go back in this thread to read all the "Matt and Klee said" posts.
I agree, he isn't an insider. I said he was full of shit. I was using him as an example of why you cant put these So called insiders information on too high a pedestal.
Nickolaidas
Banned
Change your ps4 pro's shitty thermal pads alongside the thermal paste. I guarantee you'll get a 30% less noisy ps4 as a result.
Thermal pads are often ignored, while they're crucial to the cooling.
Keep in mind you must always change your thermal pads whenever you open up your console.
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Since I am on mobile phone, I wont be able to make detailed response, but I will respond to 3 things.
1) Comparing rushed out, first gen AMD GPUs on 7nm to what will be coming out in 1.5yrs time on more mature node (N7P), which guarantees 10% lower TDP on same clocks, and with higher budget is questionable.
1) Wide and slow is definitely not the way everyone is going at the moment. Its pretty much a race towards higher frequency per mm² because design and production of 7nm chips is considerably higher then it was with 28 and even 16nm nodes and you want to maximize expensive die.
Just wafer price for 7nm is twice that of 16nm. AMD just announced Renoir chip which will feature reworked Vega GPU with 8CUs instead of 12CUs in 3000 series that will higher clocks to match it.
3) I never said Lockhart will use Arden die, you are assuming that for whatever the reason. It was a point about having single SKU with gigantic die not being logical for Sony, while with 2 you can have much smaller chip + big one and still provide enough consoles on market. If Sony wants fastest transition ever, as they said, and they dont want to be constrained by low stock, then it makes 0 sense to have 400mm² die because they will have allocated wafers and if they cannot produce more chips then they have a big problem.
Now, if they have 2 SKUs and one of them is hiding, then that changes quite a few things.
I also want to clarify that Github leak has config file, where 2.0GHz is specified as core clock and says - "upperlimit". There is lower limit column as well, with 90% clock (1.8GHz) which would be much more believable for chip going into consoles, but we dont know what Sony was aiming at 2-3yrs ago and what decision actually is. We do know that Gonzalo and Flute leaks contained 1.8GHz GPU though.
Gudji
Member
That was just a guess he never said Klee was wrong. In fact he even agree with Klee in that both systems are pretty much identical.
He also did manage xbox fans expectations on the "we will not be out of position in power or price" thread by saying "He [Phil] is just saying that scarlett performance and price will be similar to PS5".
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Anyone can go to Resetera and read Klees threadmarked posts. When you read them top to bottom, you will notice many illogical things about it.
Among them being ones where he starts as just a fan asking his good ol friend about next gen and getting shown vertical slice of NG game on USB, to his friend "assuming both are 10+ TF" to him knowing exact specs and asking for a ban after Github leak.
The moment he said "bingo" to post about Anaconda being 64CUs * 1470MHz was when I knew he was full of shit.
Among them being ones where he starts as just a fan asking his good ol friend about next gen and getting shown vertical slice of NG game on USB, to his friend "assuming both are 10+ TF" to him knowing exact specs and asking for a ban after Github leak.
The moment he said "bingo" to post about Anaconda being 64CUs * 1470MHz was when I knew he was full of shit.
Gudji
Member
1) He has no reason for lying
2) He has given his real name and face
3) He never was biased, in fact he said MS would be awesome next-gen too
4) He left because he was constantly attacked by fanboys - like you - that just can't handle the things he says
Also, there's nothing illogical about his posts it's all very cohesive. He never changed his tune since the beginning!
And regarding the "bingo" comment he later clarified it was in relation to ~12.1 TF, not the CUs. He's a journalist, not a tech guy.
bitbydeath
Member
You speak of illogical things yet still believe in the Github leak which is filled with them.
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Gudji
Member
Shhh don't tell him. Let him ride the "I only trust data despite not having context for what I'm seeing".
No, you see now you are being irrational. I didnt attack him nor I saw someone attacking him on Resetera. In fact, his word is taken as gospel by 99% of people there.
He has no reason to lie, but then again many people didnt have a reason yet they still lied. Perhaps he has gone with a flow, and him being vague is exactly what he aimed at until shit hit the fan. Arthur Gies had no reason to lie, yet he did.
Your comment about "dont worry guys, xbox will have great gen as well" is exactly whats wrong with Klee. Vague. Again, go read his threadmarks one by one from top to bottom and you will see why he talked the way he did. And yes, I know he couldnt reply for 2 weeks on Resetera duo to working night shifts at Alaska, but it still doesnt explain why he was constantly reading the thread. But yea, no reason for him to lie...
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Rightisright
Banned
My point is that both Klee and Matt arnt a source of high level leaks. Klee doesn't work in the industry as far as I can see, as he was working in Alaska cutting down trees, well that's the excuse he gave when he said he couldn't reply.
If he was confident about his info he would have just said, well folks you will find out in a few weeks. But no, he had to do the big self ban on Reee. The github leaks contradicted what he said, and off he ran.
It was bizarre.
Back when he came out with his "info" he was just repeating what others were saying. Nearly everyone thought they would be nearly identical, with one having a slight advantage. And last gen it was Sony, so lets go with Sony again. No big deal. Well from what we can make out from the AMD leaks there might actually two different approaches. Wide and slow by MS.and think and fast with Sony. No one expected that and in pure flops the AMD leaks showed a lead to XSX. It shook him. He couldn't respond, wouldn't respond, then went out in a bizarre way by announcing he was going to ask for a self ban, and giving living advice to other posters before running.
That's how I figure it.
Long story short, dont believe anyone on Twitter or a forum who tells you they have inside info. I have no doubt the exact specs of both console have been leaked, but good luck working out which ones they are with all the disinfo that has been put out. Deliberately no doubt.
bitbydeath
Member
Rightisright
Banned
Hes not a journalist. He is a tree chopping guy lol.
So if he didn't want attention, why post what he did? He liked all the "Klee said" when there wasn't any contradicting information.
And if he knew he was right, why go through the whole self ban, and to publicly announce the self ban before he did it even. He could have just logged off and then logged back in when he was proved correct after the reveals.
CuriousToe
Member
What is that related to?
All fake insiders, if you followv
But people believe what they want to believe ... and that’s their good right. But I rather believe a leak from AMD, that ended up on Github.
fun part is they believed his Alaska story, but if I had to guess he got a grand-child in his absence... he confirmed that semi afterwards.
But people believe what they want to believe ... and that’s their good right. But I rather believe a leak from AMD, that ended up on Github.
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sonomamashine
Member
DJ12
Member
He reminds me of the Iraqi information minister.Still a better love story than github
He's either going to look a legend or an absolute bellend.
Considering everyone in the know is saying the consoles are very close this probably isn't going to end well for r600 not that we'd know, I expect when he's wrong he will never post here again.
Gudji
Member
You're here saying he's a liar, so yes you're attacking him, a guy that is giving his name and face! Which other "insider" is doing that? None.
Not even Tom Warren which is a MS journo is giving specific numbers, he said it was 12 TF at first and later backtracked on his info. lmao.
At least Klee is not changing is tune!
I've read all his comments multiple times, I've been in the next-gen threads for almost 1.5 years now. He was never inconsistent with is info!
But believe what you want.
It was not suddenly, it was after months! He always said >10 TF for both consoles and kept that for months, only recently did he said he had spec sheets.
Klee worked in the industry for 15-20 years as a journalist on gaming magazines (Gamefan and EGM). He still knows guys working in the industry, but he has a close friend which is a dev in california, the guy giving him info! Matt is (or was) a developer, he's the guy I trust the most no doubt. No one questions him when he says something and there's a reason for that... before going to ERA he's was here on GAF leaking shit for years! He has a really solid track record.
Matt already said the github thing doesn't confirm anything but keep trusting that.
I dunno what he does for a living now but he is a journalist. Saying other is just being disingenuous.
He wasn't expecting websites to pick up on the stuff he says and to be honest not a single one that is credible did AFAIK.
He liked the "Klee said"? I'm sure he did but, he was not expecting fanboys to start bickering him after saying PS5 > Scarlett.
Also to both of you R R600
Rightisright
his info is in line with what Matt and Jason Schreier have been saying for months now.
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Burrito Bandito
Banned
thats just blatantly false. At the absolute least this forum is 60% Sony and 40% Xbox fanboys. id wager its more like 70/30 tbh.
policestationx
Banned
We're already in 2020 and people are still believing in insiders' BS.
Gudji
Member
You must be new at GAF.
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Kazekage1981
Member
I honestly don’t trust the insiders in this forum, there is just too much vague bullshit fuckery with PS5 along with so many highs and lows (9.2 TFLOPS to 18 LOL ) from supposed leaks. I don’t trust Klee either. A journalist to a wood chopping guy in Alaska ? People can do whatever they want but why not continue being a journalist ? A journalist who is able to articulate himself can do any other things anywhere besides wood chopping in Alaska. What does all this attention get you when the truth will eventually be revealed ?
Gudji
Member
Well this thread certainly isn't. TimDog is like 30% of Xbox fans alone.
TLZ
Banned
I told you all dude types like a 7 year old.
policestationx
Banned
That's the other way of saying they're lying I guess.
policestationx
Banned
My estimation, 60% Sony, 25% XBOX, and 15% Nintendo.
icerock
Member
What has any of this got to do with what I originally wrote? You're just stating the bleeding obvious '7nm production is much more expensive than previous iterations'. No shit, how about rebutting the points I made earlier?
You pigeon-holed on 7nm wafer costs, when that isn't even in contention here. I'm sure MS and Sony know full well how expensive the tech is. My point was and is about 'yields'. You stated smaller size = better yields and I showed you why that wouldn't be the case as there are several factors at play which dictate the yields. If Sony are going for absurdly high 1.8-2.0GHz clocks with realistic TDP the yields would be significantly poorer than a bigger GPU clocked lower. And no, 10% lower TDP wouldn't magically be a game changer. A 5700XT at its peak clock draws 227W of power. 10% reduction gets you at ~200W mark but that is a GPU clocked at 1905MHz, now imagine what would happen at 2.0GHz?
Also keep in mind these power curves don't apply the same way for console chip, that 5700XT is a very high quality piece of silicon, the same chip is used in 5700 but carefully hand picked for 5700XT because of its higher quality nature. Expecting a console binned chip such as in PS5 or Series X to perform on same level as 5700XT is lunacy as they will never have as good as thermals and power draw.
36CU@1.8GHz is still way too high. Its equivalent would be 5700 which has 36CUs@1.625GHz. How are Sony gonna squeeze out 175MHz-375MHz more speed out of it without destroying power curve and fucking over their yields?
I'm gonna summarize once again in hope you get it, if you continue to be deliberately obtuse about it and post some more irrelevant stuff then don't reply.
Even if I agree with you, that going narrow and fast has some merit. It has to be under some realms of practicality. Consoles are generally underclocked compared to their PC counterparts because the mantra has always been about efficiency in power, performance, thermal and cost. Now let's assume that Sony decided to push the envelope and asked AMD to sandwich their GPU between 5700 and 5700XT @1.8GHz. The silicon required to fit into that wouldn't be as high quality as a 5700XT. But what would happen to those chips which have 36CUs but can't hit 1.8GHz? Or if they have 36 active CUs but can't hit 1.8GHz without going past ~200W? What would Sony do with these binned chips? Throw them away?
This is where your entire argument breaks down, if Sony has a limited supply of 7nm wafer sheets then it DOESN'T make sense for them to design an APU in ~300-325mm2 territory, when in order to achieve those targets they have to clock their GPU at 1.8-2.0GHz while maintaining the power curve. All those precious $ they're trying to save on wafer sheets to the tune of 50-70mm2 would backfire because yields will be incredibly poor which means more precious wafer sheets wasted which means limiting supply, and in the end will cost them more money to make their APU.
MS aren't stupid when their Series X SoC is that big, they are facing the same hurdles as Sony do as far as production is concerned. They could've gone 'narrow and fast' but didn't because its just more costly and inefficient even on a 'more mature N7P node'. Wide and slow is what MS went with, and is very likely the way Sony is heading too. Github leak while being legit lacks context, don't take it as gospel. My interpretation is, that it is a very early dev-kit Sony made to allow their developers to learn the tools and have games ready for PS5 launch. I don't know anything about what their targeted performance is, it could be 9.2TF, or 10.4TF or higher. My point is the final retail PS5 will achieve those targeted performance by having a GPU which is NOT clocked @1.8-2.0GHz. It'll be done by a bigger NAVI at lower clock speeds.
It means they potentially had and shared accurate information at a certain point. That their intelligence is now old, or that MS/Sony changed something and didnt see fit to notify someone who had a friend who works at 2K games, doesn't mean the subject presented lies. People and their pitchforks man...
Thedtrain
Member
Probably his own YouTube channel
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
I dont care about power, its just funny that a grown up caht realise to log off a website when they "feel" they can't handle it.
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