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[Shangounchained]

44mln x 3bytes = 132 mbytes
Is it huge?

I guess it's the textures on the polygons not just the polycount is what he meant

 

[Shangounchained]

M

Vanishing corpses... it's a small ask but Next Gen please can we move on from vanishing corpses?

I want to proudly stride through hallways and chambers festooned with the bodies of the slain. I want to retrace my steps littered with the mounds of dead and say there was the killing ground, there was the bottle neck, there I had the fight of my life and I triumphed!

Vanishing corpses reminds you that 'all this is just a game'. You have your environments and your mobs but they're not really connected. I want that immersion. You could even cleverly use it as a gameplay element. Blocking a route by creating a mound of dead badies that the others have to clamber over or go around.

Mhhhhhhh this is a hard one it will tank the ram,but then again I'd welcome it with my 14 year old childlike gaming brain

 

[DeepEnigma]

D
Do u mind telling us a bit of those tricks?

I am of course speculating, but I believe since they will have an ultra fast SSD solution, the APU will be able to communicate directly, similar to their SSG setup.

AMD has just put an SSD on a graphics card

Radeon Pro SSG will be ideal for VR content creation and the likes of 8K video post-production

www.techradar.com

AMD announces Radeon Pro SSG: A GPU with 1TB of SSD storage attached

AMD announced a major new prototype today -- an "SSG" graphics card with 1TB of on-board PCI Express NAND flash.

www.extremetech.com

Which helps speed up latency bottlenecks for specific tasks. Like higher resolution buffers.

 

[EDMIX]

Ps2 sold because of the great titles it had

Thats it. Gamecube and XB and clearly PC where all stronger, yet PS2 sold better because of those games, soooo we can relax on this whole idea that it MUST be x y z times better then to do well. That just isn't the case. It being stronger then PS4 is enough so long as they have the software.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Thats it. Gamecube and XB and clearly PC where all stronger, yet PS2 sold better because of those games, soooo we can relax on this whole idea that it MUST be x y z times better then to do well. That just isn't the case. It being stronger then PS4 is enough so long as they have the software.

It will always come down to the games and global brand recognition.

 

[grfunkulus]

2080 has about the same vram size as a PS4, most graphics today are average 8gb this is because of consoles, games today don't need more than 6gb vram because they are console ports and even with a 2080 you get the same assets as a PS4 only with better resolutions and frame rates, this is mainly due to the bandwidth this pc cards have but it's the same 6gb assets and you can check this on Ur pcs vram usage!

If next gen consoles come out with 24gb of vram then only a rtx titan can compare to them in asset quality per frame a 2080 can't it might be faster but the vram size would be a problem the CPU would have to use the main ram as vram and this will slow the FPS and lead to Poppins and missing assets!

Next gen devs would be stupid to have vram usage exceed 8gb in most scenarios.

How are next gen consoles going to have 24gb of vram? That's insanely overkill

 

[JordanN]

44mln x 3bytes = 132 mbytes
Is it huge?

I guess it's the textures on the polygons not just the polycount is what he meant

psorcerer is correct that raw polygons alone don't use up a lot of memory.

But my footprint is still high because my software (3DS Max) does other things with it.

These are hi poly objects with materials applied that I converted to proxies and in total, they use 3.23 GB.


Meanwhile, I have a TV remote that has 14,513 polygons and when exported as an .OBJ file it's only 1.57 mb.

 

[psorcerer]

psorcerer is correct that raw polygons alone don't use up a lot of memory

I think the most of the problems with grass will come from overdraw and efficiency of subpixel polygon culling.

 

[VFXVeteran]

They did ray marching in horizon you should read about how they made clouds here

That's not 3d world space ray-marching. The clouds are still 2D sprites and it's not very complex compared to RTX. They are doing a 2D ray-march from a square (using 2 tris) and evaluating a noise in object space to create the shape of the cloud. Very nice, but that's not the ray-marching I'm talking about. I'm talking about already having a full 3D space (i.e. a cube) and ray-marching through that cube to determine lighting/shadowing information based on the density of the cube. This will also need to evaluate a noise, but imagine having multiple cubes where they overlap each other and you somehow combine all their shapes smoothly with using an implicit metaball function. For every point in that cube, you ray-march again to the light source to see if you are deep inside the cloud or at it's edge. Then there is Global illumination within that 3D volume that will determine light scattering and now we are in VFX territory where our renders are taking hours to complete.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Lastly most gaming innovation comes from consoles because it's where the money is at developers every new generation come with new tricks and better looking games it's no exception for coming consoles and I'm expressing what I hope to see!

Contrary to popular belief, most game studios these days actually port "down" from a higher end machine, not up. I'm talking multiplatform games. If the PC can support 2k textures but the console can't, they still make the 2k texture and port it down. Every multiplat game last gen suffered from scaled down assets but the PC had the original assets. It won't be any different this gen.

 

[Starfield]

2080 has about the same vram size as a PS4, most graphics today are average 8gb this is because of consoles, games today don't need more than 6gb vram because they are console ports and even with a 2080 you get the same assets as a PS4 only with better resolutions and frame rates, this is mainly due to the bandwidth this pc cards have but it's the same 6gb assets and you can check this on Ur pcs vram usage!

If next gen consoles come out with 24gb of vram then only a rtx titan can compare to them in asset quality per frame a 2080 can't it might be faster but the vram size would be a problem the CPU would have to use the main ram as vram and this will slow the FPS and lead to Poppins and missing assets!

Consoles share their vram with normal ram though. So implying that ps4 has the same ram size than a 2080 is just laughable. Its like saying a Ferrari with 500hp is as good as 500 horses.

 

[Shangounchained]

I am of course speculating, but I believe since they will have an ultra fast SSD solution, the APU will be able to communicate directly, similar to their SSG setup.

AMD has just put an SSD on a graphics card

Radeon Pro SSG will be ideal for VR content creation and the likes of 8K video post-production

www.techradar.com

AMD announces Radeon Pro SSG: A GPU with 1TB of SSD storage attached

AMD announced a major new prototype today -- an "SSG" graphics card with 1TB of on-board PCI Express NAND flash.

www.extremetech.com

Which helps speed up latency bottlenecks for specific tasks. Like higher resolution buffers.

I posted that stuff about SSG, I thought u had new intel about next gen ssd

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Going by the past year of PR, next gen graphics will be all about power sapping ray tracing, so that torch accurately reflects every atom of light off the moldy dungeon bricks.

Yay?

 

[Shangounchained]

Consoles share their vram with normal ram though. So implying that ps4 has the same ram size than a 2080 is just laughable. Its like saying a Ferrari with 500hp is as good as 500 horses.

You can laugh and flip upside down

Consoles share their vram with normal ram though. So implying that ps4 has the same ram size than a 2080 is just laughable. Its like saying a Ferrari with 500hp is as good as 500 horses.

8gb is pointless for next gen it doesn't matter how fast the gpus and CPUs are ram is the most important part n with next gen I expect 24 GB no less

 

[Starfield]

You can laugh and flip upside down
8gb is pointless for next gen it doesn't matter how fast the gpus and CPUs are ram is the most important part n with next gen I expect 24 GB no less

lel

 

[Shangounchained]

Contrary to popular belief, most game studios these days actually port "down" from a higher end machine, not up. I'm talking multiplatform games. If the PC can support 2k textures but the console can't, they still make the 2k texture and port it down. Every multiplat game last gen suffered from scaled down assets but the PC had the original assets. It won't be any different this gen.

Up
You idiot your so wrong it's pointless to explain but I'll do, company's spend millions designing games on consoles first for instance rdr2, they spent millions designing the game to work on PS4 and Xbox one then after months port it on pc, the reason pc games don't look advanced is simply because they are console games at heart all the budget went In designing them. To work on console, what I'll get on pc is simply high FPS resolution and a few it's and that's. Petiod

 

[Shangounchained]

That's not 3d world space ray-marching. The clouds are still 2D sprites and it's not very complex compared to RTX. They are doing a 2D ray-march from a square (using 2 tris) and evaluating a noise in object space to create the shape of the cloud. Very nice, but that's not the ray-marching I'm talking about. I'm talking about already having a full 3D space (i.e. a cube) and ray-marching through that cube to determine lighting/shadowing information based on the density of the cube. This will also need to evaluate a noise, but imagine having multiple cubes where they overlap each other and you somehow combine all their shapes smoothly with using an implicit metaball function. For every point in that cube, you ray-march again to the light source to see if you are deep inside the cloud or at it's edge. Then there is Global illumination within that 3D volume that will determine light scattering and now we are in VFX territory where our renders are taking hours to complete.

It works better than the sprites we have, n u can look at ace combat the clouds are volumetric, modern warfare uses volumetric fog on consoles so does God of war

 

[Shangounchained]

psorcerer is correct that raw polygons alone don't use up a lot of memory.

But my footprint is still high because my software (3DS Max) does other things with it.

These are hi poly objects with materials applied that I converted to proxies and in total, they use 3.23 GB.


Meanwhile, I have a TV remote that has 14,513 polygons and when exported as an .OBJ file it's only 1.57 mb.

It's the textures on the polygons not just the polygons remember that.

 

[Shmunter]

I agree, world simulation is the missing factor this gen. The world needs to react how I expect it to react to increase immersion. Higher res does little if the world is nothing but static window dressing.

I fully expect physics to be a focus on next gen as the differentiating factor over current gen.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Up
You idiot your so wrong it's pointless to explain but I'll do, company's spend millions designing games on consoles first for instance rdr2, they spent millions designing the game to work on PS4 and Xbox one then after months port it on pc, the reason pc games don't look advanced is simply because they are console games at heart all the budget went In designing them. To work on console, what I'll get on pc is simply high FPS resolution and a few it's and that's. Petiod

I'm sorry but I know folks in the gaming industry and can assure you that not all games are started with console capabilities in mind. RDR2 already had a Win64 platform with Xbox. There was no need to port anything over. The development was done in tandem. High end assets are always made beyond what a console can do. Every single "port" that went to the PC (after exclusive contracts were up) included those higher end assets. Most of these things can be turned on within the engine but you can't upsize textures. Games like FFXV had enormous high res textures over the consoles.. you think those textures were redone at a higher res? That would be very inefficient to do and a waste of a lot of time and money.

 

[Shangounchained]

Next gen devs would be stupid to have vram usage exceed 8gb in most scenarios.

How are next gen consoles going to have 24gb of vram? That's insanely overkill

What do u mean overkill, nigga there's nothing like enough ram, problem is Ur thinking of graphics on current generation levels, the discussion is about next gen not GTA 5 and how much we need to render that!

 

[Shangounchained]

I'm sorry but I know folks in the gaming industry and can assure you that not all games are started with console capabilities in mind. RDR2 already had a Win64 platform with Xbox. There was no need to port anything over. The development was done in tandem. High end assets are always made beyond what a console can do. Every single "port" that went to the PC (after exclusive contracts were up) included those higher end assets. Most of these things can be turned on within the engine but you can't upsize textures. Games like FFXV had enormous high res textures over the consoles.. you think those textures were redone at a higher res? That would be very inefficient to do and a waste of a lot of time and money.

You can know everybody in the industry but current games all look the same from consoles to pc and you can go all around the universe n the fact still remains they freakin make games on console specs then port to pc

 

[VFXVeteran]

It works better than the sprites we have, n u can look at ace combat the clouds are volumetric, modern warfare uses volumetric fog on consoles so does God of war

Those aren't true volumes man. Sorry. They are multiple plane sprites. I'm flying in DCS World daily (which is a true flight simulator with said "volumetric" clouds) and they look great but they are 2d sprites that face you no matter which direction you look and when you fly through them they transition very fast. I wrote a volume cloud renderer for the movie BOLT when I worked at Disney Animation. These are not it.

 

[Shangounchained]

Thats it. Gamecube and XB and clearly PC where all stronger, yet PS2 sold better because of those games, soooo we can relax on this whole idea that it MUST be x y z times better then to do well. That just isn't the case. It being stronger then PS4 is enough so long as they have the software.

Nope I clearly said it was more than titles but you picked only the titles statement

 

[Shangounchained]

N

Those aren't true volumes man. Sorry. They are multiple plane sprites. I'm flying in DCS World daily (which is a true flight simulator with said "volumetric" clouds) and they look great but they are 2d sprites that face you no matter which direction you look and when you fly through them they transition very fast. I wrote a volume cloud renderer for the movie BOLT when I worked at Disney Animation. These are not it.

Nope god of war uses voxel cone tracin for volumetric s, I bet Ur not reading the articles or never read the articles on how they pulled it of but you should, they use ray tracing on the tomorrow children in PS4 they use raytracing on claybook. Which is on PS4 and Xbox one, and they use SDF a d point clouds in dreams PS4 it's all volumetrics on dreams go watch it.

 

[VFXVeteran]

N
Nope god of war uses voxel cone tracin for volumetric s, I bet Ur not reading the articles or never read the articles on how they pulled it of but you should, they use ray tracing on the tomorrow children in PS4 they use raytracing on claybook. Which is on PS4 and Xbox one, and they use SDF a d point clouds in dreams PS4 it's all volumetrics on dreams go watch it.

Voxel cone tracing is used in very limited circumstances. TTC used it for GI. Ray-tracing and ray-marching are not the same thing. Ray-tracing is used so far in games has been in a limited capacity and usually in 2D space like parallax occlusion mapping (which is quite expensive) and some of the games you mentioned. Never in 3D world space at a level that's being done with RTX. There you have to check for bounding boxes for intersection hits and the hardware has to be there to accelerate those kinds of recursive calls. Ray-marching is far more complex as it's not only stepping through a volume, but ray-tracing at each step and that's not even factoring into it's all being done in 1 pixel out of a full 1080p image. I could go on and on but I somehow feel you will not accept the truth...

 

[Shangounchained]

Voxel cone tracing is used in very limited circumstances. TTC used it for GI. Ray-tracing and ray-marching are not the same thing. Ray-tracing is used so far in games has been in a limited capacity and usually in 2D space like parallax occlusion mapping (which is quite expensive) and some of the games you mentioned. Never in 3D world space at a level that's being done with RTX. There you have to check for bounding boxes for intersection hits and the hardware has to be there to accelerate those kinds of recursive calls. Ray-marching is far more complex as it's not only stepping through a volume, but ray-tracing at each step and that's not even factoring into it's all being done in 1 pixel out of a full 1080p image. I could go on and on but I somehow feel you will not accept the truth...

You talk alot of mambo Jambo but you don't look at the games, go look at the tomorrow children and see, go look at dreams and see, and yes god of war uses voxel cone tracing!

 

[xPikYx]

Don't expect much from next gen, at the moment this is apparently what we will start with... Very disappointing

 

[VFXVeteran]

You talk alot of mambo Jambo but you don't look at the games, go look at the tomorrow children and see, go look at dreams and see, and yes god of war uses voxel cone tracing!

I'm not sure what you are arguing about. I had GoW.. never was interested in TTC and never interested in Dreams. What's your point? We went from true ray-marching clouds to voxel cone tracing in 3 games.

 

[JordanN]

Up
You idiot your so wrong it's pointless to explain but I'll do, company's spend millions designing games on consoles first for instance rdr2, they spent millions designing the game to work on PS4 and Xbox one then after months port it on pc, the reason pc games don't look advanced is simply because they are console games at heart all the budget went In designing them. To work on console, what I'll get on pc is simply high FPS resolution and a few it's and that's. Petiod

Wait, what? PC games have never been console games just up ported.

What platform do you think Doom (1993) first came out on? It was ported to the home consoles (SNES/Genesis) but it still had to make compromises.

DF Retro: we play every single Doom console conversion

December 10th 2018 marks the 25th anniversary of Doom, the first-person shooter that changed everything, not only for P…

www.eurogamer.net

Even today, there are still games designed with PC in mind that would have to be changed in a console release. Star Citizen, the Total War series and ARMA are not console up-rezzes.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

T

That's all i want too!

 

[Shangounchained]

Wait, what? PC games have never been console games just up ported.

What platform do you think Doom (1993) first came out on? It was ported to the home consoles (SNES/Genesis) but it still had to make compromises.

DF Retro: we play every single Doom console conversion

December 10th 2018 marks the 25th anniversary of Doom, the first-person shooter that changed everything, not only for P…

www.eurogamer.net

Even today, there are still games designed with PC in mind that would have to be changed in a console release. Star Citizen, the Total War series and ARMA are not console up-rezzes.

2% of games out of 100 are designed for pc first today the rest 98% are designed on consoles. U can explode if u like but it is what it is. And most of those pc games u just mention like Star citizen arma and such either haven't come out have problems or are simply unenjoyable tech demos that never get finished

 

[Shangounchained]

I'm not sure what you are arguing about. I had GoW.. never was interested in TTC and never interested in Dreams. What's your point? We went from true ray-marching clouds to voxel cone tracing in 3 games.

I showed you dreams because it does volume rendering and I said God of war does voxel cone tracing, digital foundry found that out!

 

[Shangounchained]

Don't expect much from next gen, at the moment this is apparently what we will start with... Very disappointing

Really disappointing besides the extreme polycounts the 60 FPS and so forth the game really looks like a current gen game I can't tell the difference between this and death stranding, I hope it's running on a Xbox one or X and hope they made this as a multi generational game and not designed for Scarlett

Cause if this is what next gen will look like then we have a dark and dull future, if not then Microsoft are simply taking an "L" again because I'm sure playstation will come with some avatar looking game and blow everyone out!

 

[bhunachicken]

Digital Foundry did a video on the Halo Infinite trailer. Worth watching:

 

[GymWolf]

Vanishing corpses... it's a small ask but Next Gen please can we move on from vanishing corpses?

I want to proudly stride through hallways and chambers festooned with the bodies of the slain. I want to retrace my steps littered with the mounds of dead and say there was the killing ground, there was the bottle neck, there I had the fight of my life and I triumphed!

Vanishing corpses reminds you that 'all this is just a game'. You have your environments and your mobs but they're not really connected. I want that immersion. You could even cleverly use it as a gameplay element. Blocking a route by creating a mound of dead badies that the others have to clamber over or go around.

I'm far more disturbed by bodies who glu on the terrain after death.
you kill something and they become part of the scenery without any reaction to explosion or external forces.

i fucking hate this thing lol...

 

[GymWolf]

Bloodborne was still able to capture the gothic victorian era, while Order 1886 try to achieve that by sacrificing gameplay.

From I have see this generation most games that tried to achieve better visuals sacrificed interactivity and gameplay.



I mean just look at InFAMOUS Second Son, it visuals its beyond first two games but the amount enemy diversity InFAMOUS 2 had it blows Second Son out of the water and not to mention 2nd game had building size monsters.

Huge infamous fan and even with less enemy variety, the enemy in the third chapter are more fun to battle tbh.


Giant monsters in games are usually very lame in term of mechanics (like the giant thing you battle in infamous 2)
The dragon in god of war 2018 is by far the worst boss fight in that game for example.

 

[GymWolf]

Don't expect much from next gen, at the moment this is apparently what we will start with... Very disappointing

Are you aware that next halo has original xone in mind during the development right?

It's not a full fledged next gen games because he has to run on a ancient old hardware too, no matter what microsoft told ya, it is not a fully next gen developed title, they are chained to an old console.

They are not gonna develop 2 completely different games for old gen and next gen, just to be clear.

 

[bitbydeath]

And this was without any actual wind effects or animation (i.e moving grass). It will certainly be decades before we see these graphics running in real time.

 

[GymWolf]

Going by the past year of PR, next gen graphics will be all about power sapping ray tracing, so that torch accurately reflects every atom of light off the moldy dungeon bricks.

Yay?

God i hope it's not the case...
On pc they can do whatever they want, unlimited power etc.

But please dear devs, don't use basic shit looking rtx on a hardware who cost 500 dollars tops...

We can absolutely live another gen with great prebaked lights, shadows and reflections...

 

[Danjin44]

Huge infamous fan and even with less enemy variety, the enemy in the third chapter are more fun to battle tbh.

I enjoyed Second Son and even platinum it but I vastly prefer first two games, I liked the story, gameplay and enemy designs in InFAMOUS 1&2 over Second Son.

 

[Shangounchained]

Are you aware that next halo has original xone in mind during the development right?

It's not a full fledged next gen games because he has to run on a ancient old hardware too, no matter what microsoft told ya, it is not a fully next gen developed title, they are chained to an old console.

They are not gonna develop 2 completely different games for old gen and next gen, just to be clear.

That's what I thought aswell

 

[GymWolf]

I enjoyed Second Son and even platinum it but I vastly prefer first two games, I liked the story, gameplay and enemy designs in InFAMOUS 1&2 over Second Son.

Yeah, they are better in almost every aspect compared to the third game.

Enemy design was better in the first 2, but mechanically the enemies on the third game are more challenging and fun to battle for me.

Story and pg are trash in the 3 chapter, the first game is the only one with a legit good story and a fantastic finale, the second one was kinda underwelming in the story departement.

Gameplay and combat imho are far better in the third, more fluid, mesty and with better framerate, except climbing who sucks ass in all infamous games.

 

[Matt_Fox]

M
Mhhhhhhh this is a hard one it will tank the ram,but then again I'd welcome it with my 14 year old childlike gaming brain

Ha! My body may be 47 but my gaming brain is still 14 too!

 

[Matt_Fox]

I'm far more disturbed by bodies who glu on the terrain after death.
you kill something and they become part of the scenery without any reaction to explosion or external forces.

i fucking hate this thing lol...

We need non-vanishing corpses, but yes have to keep them as ragdolls! We dont want polygonal rigor mortis setting in too early...

 

[JordanN]

2% of games out of 100 are designed for pc first today the rest 98% are designed on consoles.

And that includes mobile games too?
98% of games are made on console and then ported down to mobile?

U can explode if u like but it is what it is. And most of those pc games u just mention like Star citizen arma and such either haven't come out have problems or are simply unenjoyable tech demos that never get finished

Besides Star Citizen, that's not even close to true.

Arma (series) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Total War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

List of Civilization media - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

StarCraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Several PC games have came out and are 100% playable.

Also, your logic equally applies to consoles. There have been many console games that have gotten cancelled or delayed indefinitely.

 

[Matt_Fox]

I agree, world simulation is the missing factor this gen. The world needs to react how I expect it to react to increase immersion. Higher res does little if the world is nothing but static window dressing.

I fully expect physics to be a focus on next gen as the differentiating factor over current gen.

This is why I will always defend The Elder Scrolls from the 'buggy mess' accusations. Every table in Skyrim is covered in actual individualised objects, bowls, fruit, goblets, that will literally scatter around the room and roll away if disturbed. Should you choose to you can shoot an arrow from the highest mountain top and then head downhill and pick up that same arrow again lodged in a mossy hillside. The level of ambition to create a fully simulated world of physics and forces is incredible.

Compare that to The Witcher or almost any other RPG and you'll find a game with pretty tableaus but as you say, those environments are just 'static window dressing'. A fallen bandit can't have his body dragged around, and can't be ransacked for the armor and loot on his person - all you get is a generic glowing treasure bag that takes you to the menu screen. It's all faked.

We need more immersion next gen, more emergent gameplay, and that means 'physics and forces' and individual objects for environments. That ability to manipulate everything in the game world from a chair to a fallen body will also really be symbiotic with VR too, and I will be willing to suffer a few more games that are a 'buggy mess' if that ambition yields a revolution in gaming physics.

 

[JordanN]

They're getting better each generation. I don't know if I'm ready to call it on par with CGI yet.

Something like Avatar from 10 years ago still set a benchmark in terms of realistic vegetation that the above gif doesn't capture IMO.

 

[GymWolf]

We need non-vanishing corpses, but yes have to keep them as ragdolls! We dont want polygonal rigor mortis setting in too early...

I know it sound stupid but it bothers me so much

 

[sonomamashine]

You should know that if devs dont target higher resolution + high fps (120) this is a given, i dont understand this thread.
What you are suggesting is possible on 1080p & 1440p.