Support NeoGAF

[RagingAvatar]

I see that Ninja Gaiden 2 is on sale on Xbox 360 and I've never gotten around to playing it despite loving Ninja Gaiden (and Black) - and despite owning Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2.

However, I've noticed that GAF has a real dislike of Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 and generally considers it to be vastly inferior to NG2.. the thing is:

Why?
Please explain to me GAF.

 

[adamsapple]

i think they lessened the enemies or something

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

This video shows some of the big differences off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

The big thing is that your abilities in Ninja Gaiden 2 are balanced around fighting large amounts of enemies at once. In Sigma 2, they lowered the enemy count and compensated by increasing enemy health and strength, but since your moveset is basically the same, the game's balance gets thrown off.

 

[Eolz]

Way easier and no gore are basically the reason.
If you play ninja gaiden, it's more for the reverse if this.

 

[Sayad]

NG2 > NGS2, even though NGS2's performance is better, NGS2's negatives outweighs it's positives in that comparison. What I never got is people saying NG3:RE is better than NGS2, I can only accept that as bad taste.

 

[Ninja Dom]

Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma has:

Far, far less blood.
Purple hazy graphical effect to replace blood
Reduced amount of enemies to fight on screen (to help the frame rate), Epic Staircase Battle is no way near as epic in Sigma 2
LOADING WHEN OPENING CHESTS
Noticeable loading when moving to a new area in the same level
Reduced Inceniary Shuriken Ninja's who were extremely frustrating in the Xbox version
New playable characters, Ayane, Momiji and Rachel

Overall, Sigma 2 is a more fleshed out and complete package with all the different play modes but the game isn't as "raw" to play.

 

[Peff]

It's a bit of a square peg in a round hole. The original game was designed so that it would allow for huge, lightning-fast brawls with over-the-top blood splotches and dismemberment that would remain on screeen, which is pretty unique. Sigma 2 went back to the original game instead, so it generally has 5-6 enemies which take a lot longer to kill and it tries to focus more on defense but not really instead of staying on the offensive, not to mention it's censored by having dismemberment evaporate the body parts in a weird purple mist. Of course, while Ninja Gaiden 1 was designed with this in mind and it has more corridors and closed areas to funnel you into the fights, NG2 without the enemies can look quite empty. There are more differences related to performance and content, but that's the gist of it.

 

[TheSeks]

Way easier and no gore are basically the reason.
If you play ninja gaiden, it's more for the reverse if this.

Not really. NG:Black didn't have extreme gore (it did have blood and decaps) and played fine. I don't play Ninja Gaiden for the gore. I play Ninja Gaiden for the challenge and combat.

In any case I'm forever in the "NGS2 > NG2" camp because they rebalanced the "above normal/Warrior" difficulties from "fucking infuriating" to "actually possible to beat because the game isn't throwing shit at you every two seconds."

(Yes, "challenge." There's good challenge like NG:Black, there's bad challenge like NG2 above Warrior, Peanut gallery.)

 

[Dead Man Typing]

Both have their merits, but both make me sad that we didn't get a proper Ninja Gaiden 2 Black.

I prefer 2 over Sigma 2, simply because of the intensity of the combat. Enemy counts combined with the high levels of gore make NG2 a very unique experience.

Let us not mention Ninja Gaiden 3 or it's Razors Edge variant - they aren't good.

 

[Ninja Dom]

NG2 > NGS2, even though NGS2's performance is better, NGS2's negatives outweighs it's positives in that comparison. What I never got is people saying NG3:RE is better than NGS2, I can only accept that as bad taste.

Razors Edge is good, you know. You must play it on Hard difficulty and above. But the levels of Sigma 2 are better than Razors Edge. In RE Ryu is basically globe-trotting and the levels feel like a Mario game set up - Desert level, Snow level, Forest level etc.

 

[Shinta]

Watch this in full, with the captions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A

Game over. That's it. Wrap the thread up. You're welcome.

The enemy hit points are different, the enemy placement is different, the blood is different, the bow ability to absorb souls is different, some entire levels and bosses are straight up deleted in Sigma 2.

If you care enough to make this thread, watch this video in full. You will know exactly why Ninja Gaiden 2 (360) is the definitive version. It's not even close.

That said, Sigma 2 is still fun, and I got it on PS3 and Vita. I enjoyed the extra content. But at no point in time does it replace the true Ninja Gaiden 2. Never.

The entire premise of adding stylistic finishing moves to rapidly take out enemies is because you have large numbers of enemies. The entire difficulty of enemies that have limbs missing being more dangerous is because they can hide in crowds. Even just one simple change, the number of enemies on screen, can fully, and completely, and irreversibly damage the entire point and pacing of the game as it was originally intended.

 

[Seyavesh]

This video shows some of the big differences off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

The big thing is that your abilities in Ninja Gaiden 2 are balanced around fighting large amounts of enemies at once. In Sigma 2, they lowered the enemy count and compensated by increasing enemy health and strength, but since your moveset is basically the same, the game's balance gets thrown off.

holy hell watch this vid

if this isn't edited then lmao sigma 2 is a massive downgrade geez

 

[Eggbok]

Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma has:

Far, far less blood.
Purple hazy graphical effect to replace blood
Reduced amount of enemies to fight on screen (to help the frame rate), Epic Staircase Battle is no way near as epic in Sigma 2
LOADING WHEN OPENING CHESTS
Noticeable loading when moving to a new area in the same level
Reduced Inceniary Shuriken Ninja's who were extremely frustrating in the Xbox version
New playable characters, Ayane, Momiji and Rachel

Overall, Sigma 2 is a more fleshed out and complete package with all the different play modes but the game isn't as "raw" to play.

Completely scrapped those from Sigma 2.
Sigma 2 also has coop which is/was really fun minus the lag.

 

[Dizzy]

Sigma 2 was a lot better. I think some of the people shitting on the sigma games are just trying to be elitist.

 

[Plywood]

This video shows some of the big differences off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

The big thing is that your abilities in Ninja Gaiden 2 are balanced around fighting large amounts of enemies at once. In Sigma 2, they lowered the enemy count and compensated by increasing enemy health and strength, but since your moveset is basically the same, the game's balance gets thrown off.

Holy shit @ the enemy count neuter.

 

[Shinta]

holy hell watch this vid

if this isn't edited then lmao sigma 2 is a massive downgrade geez

It's not edited. And this is the tip of the ice berg. This is one section of one level in the entire game.

Some entire sections of levels and entire bosses are straight up deleted in Sigma 2.

I'm literally holding onto my 360 almost entirely just for NG2 so I have the real version.

 

[Peff]

Sigma 2 was a lot better. I think some of the people shitting on the sigma games are just trying to be elitist.

As it so happens Sigma 2 sold quite a bit worse than NG2, so technically you'd be the elitist here.

 

[420bits]

Razors Edge is good, you know. You must play it on Hard difficulty and above. But the levels of Sigma 2 are better than Razors Edge. In RE Ryu is basically globe-trotting and the levels feel like a Mario game set up - Desert level, Snow level, Forest level etc.

I love NG but I think the controls in RE was strange, not sure what it was but they were not as tight as they used to be, havn't played it since release so I should revist it at some point to finish it but there was something odd about the controls i didn't like.

 

[Sayad]

Razors Edge is good, you know. You must play it on Hard difficulty and above. But the levels of Sigma 2 are better than Razors Edge. In RE Ryu is basically globe-trotting and the levels feel like a Mario game set up - Desert level, Snow level, Forest level etc.

I enjoyed RE for what it was, and sad as it may be, I'll be really excited if Tecmo Koei announce a new NG. But RE was an inferior game in almost every possible way, battle system, weapons, enemy types, bosses, ...

 

[Xav]

Finishing Ninja Gaiden II felt satisfying and rewarding despite the cheapness. Ninja Gaiden II Sigma on the other hand left me feeling empty, almost as if I typed in a cheat code and cheapened the experience for myself.

I wanted Sigma II to be a polished version of Ninja Gaiden II, instead what I got was a watered down version.

 

[MattKeil]

Sigma 2 was a lot better. I think some of the people shitting on the sigma games are just trying to be elitist.

After watching that video I don't see how this is a viable stance.

 

[Lemmy]

I always assumed much of the arguing about the two versions of the game boiled down to console warz nonsense tbh. In my view, they're both very flawed games in differing ways, with neither being "better" in any real way over the other (eg. where Sigma 2 has a slightly reduced enemy count and reduced gore, it also has better visuals and performance and more gameplay content, etc).

However, it's worth noting that while NG2 has what is easily the single worst gameplay segment of any NG game (Underground worm boss), NGS2 excises this sequence completely. This was a big plus imo.

 

[UltraGunner]

The fact that its a Ninja Gaiden game that is too easy is (partly) why its hated.

 

[Robot Pants]

Playing the original on Mentor or above and then playing Sigma on the same difficulties will make everything clear, my friend.

Spoiler

Also, Hayashi sucks

 

[jns]

Sigma was a much more casual friendly game and if all you are playing on is an easy difficulty, then it will alleviate some of the frustration of NG2. However, in my opinion, NG2 can be likened to Bayonetta in that the 360 version is hands down the definitive version. If however, you only own a PS3, then you can still have a ton of fun with Sigma, I know I put a good 50-60 hours in it before going back to NG2, but as an action game I really feel its inferior to the original. The youtube video posted gives a really great understanding o the different philosophies of the two developers. basically, Itagaki just wanted you rto fuck shit up or die tryin..

 

[JordanN]

Since Ninja Gaiden on the original Xbox got a PS3 remaster, Ninja Gaiden 2 could get a PS4/XBO update as well?

Take the increased enemies and blood of the Xbox 360 version and the better graphics and playable female characters of the PS3 version and combine them into one package on the next gen consoles. Everyone wins!

 

[danmaku]

I always assumed much of the arguing about the two versions of the game boiled down to console warz nonsense tbh. In my view, they're both very flawed games in differing ways, with neither being "better" in any real way over the other (eg. where Sigma 2 has a slightly reduced enemy count and reduced gore, it also has better visuals and performance and more gameplay content, etc).

However, it's worth noting that while NG2 has what is easily the single worst gameplay segment of any NG game (Underground worm boss), NGS2 excises this sequence completely. This was a big plus imo.

It's also worth noting that NGS2 excises the best gameplay segment of any NG game: chapter 11. This is a much bigger minus.

 

[grandwizard]

This video shows some of the big differences off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

The big thing is that your abilities in Ninja Gaiden 2 are balanced around fighting large amounts of enemies at once. In Sigma 2, they lowered the enemy count and compensated by increasing enemy health and strength, but since your moveset is basically the same, the game's balance gets thrown off.

All that needs to be said/seen really... The return to the ninja village was one of the most epic and grueling series of fights in an action game. The cut down version is a disgrace.

 

[Xav]

Take the increased enemies and blood of the Xbox 360 version and the better graphics and playable female characters of the PS3 version and combine them into one package on the next gen consoles. Everyone wins!

Who said the PS3 version always had the better graphics?

 

[Maxim726X]

Not really. NG:Black didn't have extreme gore (it did have blood and decaps) and played fine. I don't play Ninja Gaiden for the gore. I play Ninja Gaiden for the challenge and combat.

In any case I'm forever in the "NGS2 > NG2" camp because they rebalanced the "above normal/Warrior" difficulties from "fucking infuriating" to "actually possible to beat because the game isn't throwing shit at you every two seconds."

(Yes, "challenge." There's good challenge like NG:Black, there's bad challenge like NG2 above Warrior, Peanut gallery.)

This encapsulates how I feel about the game too... Random projectiles killing you from every angle does not a hard game make. It was infuriatingly cheap. Fuck NG2, game was shit compared to the classic that is NG Black.

 

[Shinta]

This encapsulates how I feel about the game too... Random projectiles killing you from every angle does not a hard game make. It was infuriatingly cheap. Fuck NG2, game was shit compared to the classic that is NG Black.

It just emphasizes defense, blocking and using i-frames even more.

Some small parts of it are cheap, and most notably, the bosses are worse than Black. It's not as fully polished overall.

But compared to NG2's core combat system, NGB is embarrassingly slow and simplistic.

NG2 is the best action game ever made.

 

[Village]

Way easier and no gore are basically the reason.
If you play ninja gaiden, it's more for the reverse if this.

I play ninja gaiden, to murden people as a ninja with good controls, confetti could fly out. Actually that would be amazing . The point is , I do not play games for gore, I play them because they are fun.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Sigma 2 (and all Sigma games) is an unbalanced mess compared to NG2. They reduced the enemy counts, removed entire sections and took what was an incredible but somewhat rushed title and turned it into a complete crapfest.

Hayashi is a terrible developer and the world weeps that he's in charge of the Ninja Gaiden series.

 

[geordiemp]

Watch this in full, with the captions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A

Game over. That's it. Wrap the thread up. You're welcome.

The enemy hit points are different, the enemy placement is different, the blood is different, the bow ability to absorb souls is different, some entire levels and bosses are straight up deleted in Sigma 2.

If you care enough to make this thread, watch this video in full. You will know exactly why Ninja Gaiden 2 (360) is the definitive version. It's not even close.

That said, Sigma 2 is still fun, and I got it on PS3 and Vita. I enjoyed the extra content. But at no point in time does it replace the true Ninja Gaiden 2. Never.

The entire premise of adding stylistic finishing moves to rapidly take out enemies is because you have large numbers of enemies. The entire difficulty of enemies that have limbs missing being more dangerous is because they can hide in crowds. Even just one simple change, the number of enemies on screen, can fully, and completely, and irreversibly damage the entire point and pacing of the game as it was originally intended.

Thanks for that, loved watching NG2 again. I bought a 360 (after Ps3) and got every version for both, god what a game.

The sad fact is no other fighting games do it for me, 3rd person + CAMERA control is just so immersive and intense.

I tried like other fighting games (Wii Smash / SF / God war etc) but they just pale into insignificance against NG.

NGS2 also had a coop option for certain stages, I had 2 copies and 2 Ps3 so we could have a slice fest with a mate, but it still was not NG2....

We really need a next gen version...

NG2 is the best action game ever made.

..truth

 

[Skilotonn]

Well, you got detailed video (the best way to show a point) and detailed text showing you why Ninja Gaiden II should be regarded as the only 3D Ninja Gaiden after Ninja Gaiden Black. Without even mentioning the Mission Mode that only Ninja Gaiden II has.

Glad that it was done before I came to the thread so I didn't have to say much. But now if anyone else ever asks in the future, they can always be linked to this thread's collection of info.

Who said the PS3 version always had the better graphics?

You don't even have to look further than the health and Ninpo bar to see the huge difference between the two in terms of quality and skill behind the version really.

Team Ninja Dog is nothing compared to the original Team Ninja.

 

[Ascenion]

NG2 was a game ahead of its time really is all this comes down to. The Xbox 360 simply wasn't ready and in my honest opinion NGS2 is the definitive version simply because it actually performs well all of the time and adds more umph into the package and fixes more than it messes up. NG2 barely ever ran at its advertised 60 fps, shit it struggled to keep 30 during the times it needed it most. It was better designed gameplay wise but it was a technical mess.


Edit: Please lord, outsource NG to Platinum. They are the devs Ryu deserves AND the ones he needs right now. I mean at their worst they could make something better than NG3.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

I played through both NG2 and NGS2.
Now first off I didn't put nearly as much time into the games as others on this forum so I'm just noting what I saw.

In Venice there are a few fights that take place over water in NG2. I didn't much care for them due to the weird controls. So what happened in NGS2? On normal difficulty those water-fights were removed completely. So at one point in Venice Ryu just goes for a leisurely swim. There were other segments of the game where enemies were either missing or replaced by lesser stuff (like ghost-fish). It was very jarring.

Also while this might not seem like much, NGS2 is also missing all of the switch-pulling, key-grabbing, and most minor of puzzle-solving. This is such a weird cut to make. It makes the stages in NGS2 appear lifeless.

NG2 had some unpolished and frustrating bosses that I couldn't stand (Hello Water Dragon). I will say this, at least they were ambitious. NGS2 changed up fights like that one and while they're more fair they're also less creative. Everything was dialed back instead of polished. It gave off the vibe that ehh..I don't know if I want to see these guys making a NG sequel (I'm playing Razor's Edge right now and uh...hmmm).

NG2 really deserves a new edition that cleans up the issues between both versions. It really should be the ultimate ninja-action game.

 

[geordiemp]

Does anyone know if a new Ninja Gaiden is in the works ?

 

[JordanN]

Does anyone know if a new Ninja Gaiden is in the works ?

They hinted at a new one last year.

I suspect it will come out after Dead or Alive 6/Xtreme 3 since Team Ninja said they're learning soft body physics on PS4 (or maybe it's for Ninja Gaiden 4? Who knows).

 

[Toski]

The sad fact is no other fighting games do it for me, 3rd person + CAMERA control is just so immersive and intense.

I tried like other fighting games (Wii Smash / SF / God war etc) but they just pale into insignificance against NG.

NGS2 also had a coop option for certain stages, I had 2 copies and 2 Ps3 so we could have a slice fest with a mate, but it still was not NG2....

We really need a next gen version...

..truth

I usually let things like this slide, but I gotta correct you. Ninja Gaiden, God of War, Devil May Cry, etc. aren't fighting games. They're character action/beat em up games usually focusing on single player and high scores. Fighting games (Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken) don't have camera control and are primarily focused on 1v1 competitve multiplayer.

 

[wiggleb0t]

Replacing blood with purple efffects and iircc toning down decapitations isn't good in anyway considering the brutality of the game. It's like cheesy laugh tracks on tv comedies.

That aside, surely it's still entact gameplay so, fun.

 

[Eggbok]

In Venice there are a few fights that take place over water in NG2. I didn't much care for them due to the weird controls. So what happened in NGS2? On normal difficulty those water-fights were removed completely. So at one point in Venice Ryu just goes for a leisurely swim. There were other segments of the game where enemies were either missing or replaced by lesser stuff (like ghost-fish). It was very jarring.

I think a lot was sacrificed in order for them to add the new things. No clear reason why they chose to do that. But that's what I assume the reason is.

Also while this might not seem like much, NGS2 is also missing all of the switch-pulling, key-grabbing, and most minor of puzzle-solving. This is such a weird cut to make. It makes the stages in NGS2 appear lifeless.

They did the same for OG Sigma as well. Although I don't think it was on the same scale as Sigma 2 in terms of what was cut out. The enemies in Sigma are about the same as Black/OG Ninja Gaiden though.

NG2 had some unpolished and frustrating bosses that I couldn't stand (Hello Water Dragon). I will say this, at least they were ambitious. NGS2 changed up fights like that one and while they're more fair they're also less creative. Everything was dialed back instead of polished. It gave off the vibe that ehh..I don't know if I want to see these guys making a NG sequel (I'm playing Razor's Edge right now and uh...hmmm).

NG3 and Razor's Edge don't exist, shh...

NG2 really deserves a new edition that cleans up the issues between both versions. It really should be the ultimate ninja-action game.

Not while TN is making the game :/ I would love if Platinum made a Ninja Gaiden game, but I worry they would change it. But at the same time they would do a way better job than TN.

 

[Eolz]

Not really. NG:Black didn't have extreme gore (it did have blood and decaps) and played fine. I don't play Ninja Gaiden for the gore. I play Ninja Gaiden for the challenge and combat.

I play ninja gaiden, to murden people as a ninja with good controls, confetti could fly out. Actually that would be amazing . The point is , I do not play games for gore, I play them because they are fun.

You know what I meant, one of the criticisms was about the reduced violence and the purple mist. I'm not saying the game was worse because of that.

Team Ninja Dog is nothing compared to the original Team Ninja.

At least we got a better DoA out of this, and RE fixed as many mistakes as this was possible without making a new game.

Edit: Please lord, outsource NG to Platinum. They are the devs Ryu deserves AND the ones he needs right now. I mean at their worst they could make something better than NG3.

Platinum is one of my favorite developers, but I wouldn't want that with the risk of becoming more like DMC/Bayonetta (which is also my favorite 3D BTA). Team Ninja is competent, they just need to understand what they did wrong for the 4th game.
RE's challenge mode was great.


And what JordanN said. I'm sure NG4 will be their first next-gen project if it isn't a port of DoA5 or DoAX3.
I would assume most of their team is working on it, a small part on DoA5 (dlc, support, etc), a small part on side projects (DoAX3, ports, preprod, etc) and helping other KT teams (Hyrule Warriors for example)

 

[geordiemp]

I usually let things like this slide, but I gotta correct you. Ninja Gaiden, God of War, Devil May Cry, etc. aren't fighting games. They're character action/beat em up games usually focusing on single player and high scores. Fighting games (Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken) don't have camera control and are primarily focused on 1v1 competitve multiplayer.

Fair enough, but its so annoying that its hard to get a Ninja Gaiden like game / genre / feel anywhere on any system.

I hope Sony make a God of War game with a controllable camera, but it still would not be NG.

 

[Coriolanus]

Not particularly worried about a new NG game because after NG3 fiasco, it is clear that someone in the company went to TN and said "WTF ARE YOU DOING YOU TWATS? SALVAGE THIS NOW", hence them adding almost all the stuff that should have never been removed in the first place.

Can't do much about the level design in a rehash, obviously, and they sure could go back to either NGB or NG2 dodge styles (cuz dear gods the reduced iframes in ng3re annoyed me).

So, y'know, if the guy that forced hayashi to get his head out of his ass for the rehash is still around, it might be....decent, even.

Also, NG2>NGS2, even with all the ranged attack crap.

Sidenote: gods, i remember booting NG3 for the first time, starting the game, seeing that square prompt in the middle of a black screen, going w0t, u serious m8, and waiting to see what would happen. Press Square to Continue is what happens. Followed by a quicktime event. Was all "how the fuck could they get Ninja Gaiden so wrong?"

 

[UrbanRats]

Well, you got detailed video (the best way to show a point) and detailed text showing you why Ninja Gaiden II should be regarded as the only 3D Ninja Gaiden after Ninja Gaiden Black. Without even mentioning the Mission Mode that only Ninja Gaiden II has.

Glad that it was done before I came to the thread so I didn't have to say much. But now if anyone else ever asks in the future, they can always be linked to this thread's collection of info.



You don't even have to look further than the health and Ninpo bar to see the huge difference between the two in terms of quality and skill behind the version really.

Team Ninja Dog is nothing compared to the original Team Ninja.

Comparing the perfection that was NGBlack, to the unpolished mess that was NG2... smh.

Not that NGS2 was much better in terms of balance, but NG2 was hardly as perfect as NGB was.

 

[Uraizen]

Huh... I see the reasons have already been given. Just throwing this out here, but NG2 is currently $5.09 USD on the XBL Marketplace. Just sayin'

 

[synce]

The short answer is: anything Hayashi touches is shit. If you look at all the NG games he's worked on, the only thing he knows how to do is add more boobage. Sigma 2's biggest problem is that there's no challenge. They lessened the enemy count and yet there's still slowdown. Also they replaced blood with purple stuff, which makes no sense.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 promised the world and underdelivered.

If it was just NG2 with less slowdown it would be 10X the game it is.

 

[benzy]

You don't even have to look further than the health and Ninpo bar to see the huge difference between the two in terms of quality and skill behind the version really.

Team Ninja Dog is nothing compared to the original Team Ninja.

You could also look at the stages between the Master Ninja games compared to Ninja Gaiden 3. The Ninja Dog team were completely uninspired and extremely bland when creating levels for 3/RE, so not only were they incompetent in enemy placement, a.i. design, combat design, and general game progression where you just fight wave after wave of enemies spawning ala Dynasty Warriors style, they basically removed everything that makes Ninja Gaiden great, including the absurd and over top level design of the hell stages.