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Nintendo 1H 2012 results - $367M operating loss, 5.06M 3DS, 5.5M Wii U forecast

kswiston

Member
It's not split between 700k apps, since many of those apps are free, and the figure doesn't include ad payments.

I think the rate of growth is very notable--how much do you think total revenue will be after this holiday season? At the end of next year?

Half the apps are free. You are still looking at 350k paid apps, including 60k paid iOS games.

http://148apps.biz/app-store-metrics/?mpage=appprice

Out of the 114.3k gaming apps, 113.1k are $5 or less (106k are $2 or less). About 900 more are between $5-20. That leaves less than 300 other titles at price points starting at what is considered DS budget prices. I am not sure how many of those actually sell, but if they were selling well, I am sure they wouldn't represent a tiny 0.3% of the Gaming apps releases.

AppStore Market share growth has been impressive, but that pie is split among over 100k developers and hundreds of thousands of apps. There are also close to a half billion iDevices out there, so $20 per person spent on apps (excluding money made on ads like you pointed out) is not exactly an amazing figure.
 

Miles X

Member
Last christmas doesn't speak for itself, infact MS massively overshipped and paid for that for the next two quarters in the current year with really low shipments.
Also at this point the Kinect 'effect' is vanished in the US too.

The first 2 Q's wernt results of just generally being down YOY like NPD and every other tracker suggests then? I mean they were down so much Q1 yoy because the previous was massive, this year wasn't that much further down than previous normal years.
 
N64 lived longer (thanks iQue!). :3

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the ique player only plays like 15 N64 games? If so, I wouldn't really say that the N64 outlived the PSX.

Use this along with the other charts to get a better representation of things:
15l.jpg

Can someone do percentages for everything else besides just 3DS?

You''re not looking at the numbers correctly.

First, the App Store launched in 2008, so it's 4 years, 3 years as of last year.
Second, the rate of growth is more important than the total.

Look at the rate based on announced payments:
October 2012: $6.5 billion paid to developers.
June 2012: $5 billion paid to developers.
January 2012: $4 billion paid to developers.
October 2011: $3 billion paid to developers.
March 2011: $2 billion paid to developers.
June 2010: $1 billion paid to developers.
July 2008: $0 paid.

From 2008 to 2010 (2 years): $1 billion
From June 2010 to March 2011 (10 months): $1 billion
From March 2011 to October 2011 (7 months): $1 billion
From October 2011 to January 2012 (3 months, including holiday): $1 billion
From January 2012 to June 2012 (5 months): $1 billion
From June 2012 to October 2012 (5-6 months): $1.5 billion

It took from July 2008 to October 2011 (3.25 years) to make the first $3 billion.
It took from October 2011 to October 2012 (1 year) to make the next $3.5 billion.

Thanks for that, very impressive.

It was a joke.

Sorry, couldn't tell :/
 

Elios83

Member
The first 2 Q's wernt results of just generally being down YOY like NPD and every other tracker suggests then? I mean they were down so much Q1 yoy because the previous was massive, this year wasn't that much further down than previous normal years.

Well no because they shipped just 1.4m units during Q1 which is down from 2.7m a year before but it is also their lowest shipment since 2007 while they actually sold through almost 1m units just in the US during the quarter. So no, they definetly overshipped.
This holiday season MS sales will be much lower than last year, who will win I don't know but I think it will be a close battle.
 

jcm

Member
Looks to me like 360 is slightly above PS3, but what's most important is recent years. 10/11 they did sell a lot more consoles, they had to ship stock from Q1 in, resulting in a very high Q1 shipment. Last xmas speaks for itself. Perhaps though I should have said, ever since Kinect and slim 360 has done much better during the holidays.

I don't see why this holiday will be any different.

Assuming you don't count the PS3's launch quarter (which is obviously aberrant), they are 2-2-1 in holiday quarters. Now you are changing your contention to use a single quarter in isolation as the basis for defining sales trends. That's a lousy basis for your analysis.

Personally, I think last year's holiday number was the result of overshipping, and I don't expect to see it repeated this year. Low to mid 6's is pretty clearly the expected holiday number for both of them.
 

Miles X

Member
Well no because they shipped just 1.4m units during Q1 which is down from 2.7m a year before but it is also their lowest shipment since 2007 while they actually sold through almost 1m units just in the US during the quarter. So no, they definetly overshipped.
This holiday season MS sales will be much lower than last year, who will win I don't know but I think it will be a close battle.

I already told you why they sold 2.7m that Q. The previous Q1's yes they are down, but not hugely, not anything that can't be expained with just being down YOY.
 
I think the indicator that their channel was (too) full after the holiday shipment isn't that subsequent shipments were down year-over-year.

Rather, it's that sell-through estimates exceed shipment figures for both CYQ1 (by my count, sell-through exceeded shipments by 0.37M) and CYQ2 (sell-through exceeded shipments by 0.15M).
 

Elios83

Member
I already told you why they sold 2.7m that Q. The previous Q1's yes they are down, but not hugely, not anything that can't be expained with just being down YOY.

No because during that Q1 they sold through 1m units just in the US (NPD numbers), so with 1.4m shipped ww, they clearly undershipped compared to actual ww sales to offset the previous overshipment made during Q4.
Honestly it's funny that you perfectly understand that Q1 2011 was so high because they undershipped in the previous quarter, while you refuse that Q1 2012 was so low precisely for the opposite reason. This year with ww sales treding down I expect both PS3 and 360 to ship around 6m units during Q4. We'll see of course.

About Nintendo, with Wii U being sold at a loss it will be hard not to post a second annual loss. They're betting their financial results on Wii U having a 4:1 tie ratio but that's really hard to achieve during the launch window when tie ratios are tipically around 1:1.
 
Split between over 700k apps though, more than 500k which have nothing to do with gaming (there are currently 125k gaming apps on iOS according to tracking sites which document this stuff).

Figure just short of $10B in revenue since the appstore launched when you factor in Apple's share, with around $5 billion from this past year. Even if 60% of that money is coming from gaming apps, it's a lot smaller than the global dedicated handheld software revenue. Nintendo's bigger sellers do $250M-$1B in revenue each. What game has done $100M+ in revenue on iOS? Maybe Angry Birds? Zynga managed just over $1B in total revenue from Facebook, iOS and Android last year with over 300 million active users. That's all of $4 a person spent over the full year if we bump up that total by 30% to account for licensing/distributor fees.
It's already been discussed in this thread. iOS games almost certainly generate more revenue than the entire dedicated handheld software market. If you only compare 3rd parties, they get over 3 times as much revenue from iOS games than 3DS, DS, Vita and PSP put together.

But the average third party 3DS game generates about 40x as much revenue as the average iOS one (this includes the free iOS games).
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
I wonder how much of the Nintendo lost market is due to the 3DS being a secure system. We all know that not an small number of people bought a DS with a flash card with tons of (pirated) games for their kids/themselves. That is not longer an option with the 3DS. Now we have the $1 to free games to pirated mobile games covering that niche.
 

donny2112

Member
I can but agree. We're seeing NDS cannibalize 3DS here in same way.

GBA launched at $100. GBASP was the same price (I think). DS was the first Nintendo handheld to launch above $100 at a whopping $150, and it sold terribly after that first Christmas. Nintendogs + $130 price drop in August 2005 slowed the hemorrhaging and made for an interesting "race" between it and PSP each month. When DSLite launched, it was a price increase in Japan (Japan has historically been much less price-sensitive than any other market), but Nintendo decided to not raise the price in the U.S. Therefore DSLite launched at the same $130 as DS was selling at and was a rocketship to the moon. At that point, the DS was an established system with games people wanted (e.g. Nintendogs, Brain Age, NSMB, Mario Kart, Animal Crossing), so a new hardware launch at the old hardware price had a dramatic effect felt for years.

I think the DSi launch in April 2009 (~3 years after DSLite) was sort of the market expecting DSi to be the successor the DS instead of just another revision. It's timing was right (~5 years after DS launched when DS launched ~4.5 years after GBA launch) for a successor, and 1 million in a month outside of Nov/Dec was basically unheard of. The price was higher ($170, I think), but the DSLite didn't stop selling, either. Therefore monthly totals were still quite high for the old+new. I think this kind of confused the market that maybe thought DSi was the successor to DS/DSL. From Nintendo's standpoint, it made sense, as it was their real attempt to stop piracy, which was horrible worldwide on the original DS. But it might've confused the market some, possibly.

3DS two years later at a +50% price increase over DSi was just way too much. 1) Market confusion from multiple angles (e.g. didn't the new DS just launch - DSi, isn't this just another DS but with 3-D). 2) No real gaming reason to upgrade ("potential" doesn't make it much out of the hardcore to sell a system). 3) Economy made the price prohibitive, in any case, so just one more reason not to upgrade thrown on the pile. During this time, DS continued to decline (e.g. 2.5m in Dec-2010 to < 700K in Dec-2011). Then the price drop to $99 in late May, and DS about equaled 3DS in June/July (not that 3DS was doing good, but as you said, it was eating into potential buyers of the 3DS; Personally, I don't consider that a bad thing at all, since the handhelds need to last a long time, and as long as Nintendo can keep the handheld environment active, even if it's not on the 3DS alone, that's better than a smaller overall handheld environment without the contribution from DS). This Nov/Dec, wouldn't be surprised to see a big increase YOY for DS, as long as the stock holds. 3DS would do well to match last year's totals, in comparison. That would still have 3DS selling a lot more than DS, but it should just re-emphasize that the handheld market needs to be a cheap market. It doesn't work well with keeping raising the prices. $40 standard games for 3DS gets brought up a lot as a big issue with software sales on the system. It's just too much for the mainstream buyer to "risk" on a handheld game, especially with the free/$.99 options available on other platforms. Returning to the DS model pricing (top $35 with most $30 or below) would be great for units, but it may not work for revenue to support much development on the system...
 

donny2112

Member
Just want to be clear that my wording ("I can but agree") was intended to mean I agree. (As in, "I can do nothing but agree.") Sorry if it were confusing.

Yeah, figured it was supposed to be something like "can't help but agree." Just felt like supplying some background for the reasoning. I think DS was the first initial release of a Nintendo handheld to launch > $100, too. GBC was $80?
 

jvm

Gamasutra.
Yeah, figured it was supposed to be something like "can't help but agree." Just felt like supplying some background for the reasoning. I think DS was the first initial release of a Nintendo handheld to launch > $100, too. GBC was $80?
That sounds right to me. If we don't have a firm source on that, I can go look in Lexis-Nexis for a contemporaneous PR or news item.

Just for completeness:
Investor's Business Daily

November 23, 1998

By: Michael Lyster
<snip>

Game Boy Color. This pocket-size game device from Nintendo Co. now has a full-color screen and improved graphics. It goes for $ 80 and appeals to young game players. Nintendo has released new game cartridges for Game Boy Color. The device adds color to older black-and-white Game Boy titles.

Video games. For your favorite video game fans, Nintendo's ''The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time'' promises to be the top-selling game of the year, analysts say. The epic, movie-like game for the Nintendo 64 console sells for $ 70. For Sony Corp.'s PlayStation console, ''Crash Bandicoot: Warped'' is hot and goes for $ 40.

<snip>
 

Hobby

Member
The Q&A session is up, but it's in Japanese. I decided to skim through it and pick out some interesting bits and pieces.

- Iwata can't say exactly when Wii U will no longer be sold at a loss, but he believes that by the next fiscal year that software and hardware combined for WIi U will contribute a satisfactory profit.

- As you can probably guess, Iwata and Nintendo weren't happy with how Nintendo-related information was being transmitted on the net before they even had a chance to post anything about it themselves. This is how Nintendo Direct came to be.

- Nintendo Directs have had a positive effect on hardware sellthrough, rate of hardware usage (guessing he means 3DS), and download numbers for demos and 3D videos.

- Iwata: "I don't know when our fans will get bored with seeing a regular guy in his 50s talking about games over and over, but I'd like to continue doing it for as long as they enjoy watching and paying attention to Nintendo Directs."

- Doesn't believe Nintendo Directs are the be all end all for marketing for them, but merely a new axis for it.

- Iwata feels the period post-holidays is of great importance for Wii U sales. They realize that they have had issues in the past with deploying too many titles at launch and then having nothing after. Luckily, they've been able to secure a very large number of games from western devs, so Nintendo have been able to shift some of their titles to post-holidays.

- What happened last year with Nintendo 3DS's sudden price drop has had an impact on what they priced Wii U at. They realized that they had to price Wii U in a price range that wouldn't cause consumers to worry that Nintendo might suddenly drop the price on Wii U again.

- Miiverse is built in to Wii U and will be available at launch.

- Don't need to stop playing a game to pull up Miiverse.

- Seems like Friend Codes might be gone? Kind of vague. Can befriend people you met through Miiverse.

- Sounds like Miiverse basic functions supports all games, and developers can choose to use additional Miiverse-specific features.

- Sounds like there's going to be a Miiverse focused Nintendo direct before launch.

- Doesn't seem like there'll be paid DLC for Animal Crossing: New Leaf because it'd make the game be too costly.

- Won't have DLC for all games, really depends on the game.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/library/events/121025qa/index.html
 
- What happened last year with Nintendo 3DS's sudden price drop has had an impact on what they priced Wii U at. They realized that they had to price Wii U in a price range that wouldn't cause consumers to worry that Nintendo might suddenly drop the price on Wii U again.

This makes me think that prior to 3DS disaster/price drop they were planning on launching WiiU at a higher price. Maybe $350/$400?

Also makes me think that maybe they wouldn't have lost money at those prices so the loss shouldn't be too great.
 

Drago

Member
- Doesn't seem like there'll be paid DLC for Animal Crossing: New Leaf because it'd make the game be too costly.

Iwata is my hero

I sorta want to make a new thread about this, no paid DLC (as far as we can tell) for AC must be thread-worthy no?
 
Excellent news. I look forward to hearing more MiiVerse details soon. It's great that Nintendo decided to spread games out, but some big-name titles are still arriving months later than other versions. They may become negligible.
 

Hobby

Member
Iwata is my hero

I sorta want to make a new thread about this, no paid DLC (as far as we can tell) for AC must be thread-worthy no?
NOA will have the Q&A session fully translated by Monday, so I'd say just wait until then so you can quote that.
 

donny2112

Member
This makes me think that prior to 3DS disaster/price drop they were planning on launching WiiU at a higher price. Maybe $350/$400?

Also makes me think that maybe they wouldn't have lost money at those prices so the loss shouldn't be too great.

This could be true, but it's still a lot of assumption. Safe to say that if they had priced it some indeterminate price higher, the hardware would not cause a loss, but can't really put a number on it. Therefore, can't say how much the loss is per console. They're not even 100% sure that software+hardware will be profitable next fiscal year, whereas GameCube was sold at a small loss initially and was profitable after six months.

Again, you could be correct, but it'd just be a shot in the dark hitting the mark, as there's not really anything in what was posted to pull a specific number out of.

Agree that it's not some exorbitant price difference or they wouldn't even have hopes of getting profitable with SW+HW next year, but just can't put a specific number on the loss from that.
 

noobie

Banned
Wii Worldwide Unit Sales (Unit:Million)

Code:
Hardware       Ap-Jn    Jl-Sp    Oc-Dc    Ja-Mr      FY      LTD

FY 2006/07       -        -      3.19     2.65      5.84     5.84

FY 2007/08     3.43     3.90     6.96     4.32      18.61    24.45   

FY 2008/09     5.17     4.93     10.42    5.43      25.95    50.39

FY 2009/10     2.23     3.53     11.30    3.48      20.53    70.93

FY 2010/11     3.04     1.93     8.75     1.36      15.08    86.01

FY 2011/12     1.56     1.79     5.61     0.88      9.84     95.85

FY 2012/13     0.71     0.61      -        -        1.32     97.18

Is there a remote possibility that Wii will fail to cross 100 million? Is Nintendo going to support it or kill after the launch of WiiU
 
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