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Nintendo 64 Mini?

EverydayBeast

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Does Nintendo need to maneuver back into the Mini crowd to pump up their fans?

We seem to have moved on from N64 mini talks when the Switch Lite talk came up, now the holidays have passed and Nintendo loss that opportunity to dominate this niche console crowd, for me an N64 mini is Day 1.

GAF?
 
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Ban Puncher

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Won't happen. Not because of any computing power but because having an analogue stick drives the cost of the controller hardware right up over just a simple all digital button pad with all the specialised and tiny moving parts required.

It's why Sony cheaped out on including Dual Shocks in with the PlayStation Classic Console.
 

AvenueWinning

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N64 is a historically great console, been around for 20 years so I don't know why Nintendo is hesitating to release the damn thing, I get that there are other things with higher priorities but this is gaming.
 

laser_printer

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Won't happen. Not because of any computing power but because having an analogue stick drives the cost of the controller hardware right up over just a simple all digital button pad with all the specialised and tiny moving parts required.

It's why Sony cheaped out on including Dual Shocks in with the PlayStation Classic Console.
You can get the Logitech F310 for 20 bucks with dual analogs and more compatibility than even Microsofts Xbox controllers (It works with older titles, which is awesome for all those early to mid 2000s games) and more buttons than a which means that wholesale it's probably 10-12 bucks.
 
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I'm done with those mini consoles personally. I had both the NES and SNES, and I played them for a bit when they were new, but they were just gathering dust after a few days, so I sold them. I'd much rather have them come to Switch.
 

lukilladog

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Won't happen. Not because of any computing power but because having an analogue stick drives the cost of the controller hardware right up over just a simple all digital button pad with all the specialised and tiny moving parts required.

It's why Sony cheaped out on including Dual Shocks in with the PlayStation Classic Console.
The xbox/ps4 type stick potentiometers are cheap as dirt these days, they can buy them for less than $1. I think the problem is that the open source emulators require lot more power and they suck.
 

Max_Po

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N64 is a historically great console, been around for 20 years so I don't know why Nintendo is hesitating to release the damn thing, I get that there are other things with higher priorities but this is gaming.
nothing great about n64. Yes those 18 fps Zelda games were really great... ROFL

Expensive to manufacture and the emulation is crap.

Just adding: FUCKING TRASH Controller. I don't even want it to scratch the depths of my ass with that hideous controller.
 
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hunthunt

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Won't happen. Not because of any computing power but because having an analogue stick drives the cost of the controller hardware right up over just a simple all digital button pad with all the specialised and tiny moving parts required.

It's why Sony cheaped out on including Dual Shocks in with the PlayStation Classic Console.

I have bought cheap chinese usb dual shock clones for like $10, they are just fine for day to day use for an adult which is the target for these mini consoles anyway.

The problem is getting cheap hardware to emulate with accuracy and filters because n64 games in 480p look like shit.
 

Ban Puncher

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You can get the Logitech F310 for 20 bucks with dual analogs and more compatibility than even Microsofts Xbox controllers (It works with older titles, which is awesome for all those early to mid 2000s games) and more buttons than a which means that wholesale it's probably 10-12 bucks.
And the Logitech F310 costs even less to manufacture than wholesale. But a controller with an analogue stick would cost more to manufacture than one that is just moulded plastic with a circuit board and a rubber membrane inside it. If Nintendo were to make N64 controller for a Mini Console they would have to pay to re-engineer it, fire up a plant and build new moulds, and because it wasn't the most robust controller initially they would have to make a call on whether to stick true to the original design or risk 'affecting the purity' by say subbing in the more sturdy GC analouge stick (which some people do as a mod themselves). And this is all about the controller - still have to make the actual software and hardware.

Then Nintendo has to weigh up if all this R&D and manufacture cost is worth the potential sales. A Mini N64 would probably sell less than the NES or SNES variants and cost more to make. These mini consoles are built to a cost and to a particular RRP to maximise profit and with an N64 it just doesn't seem to be as an easy pay day. Plus, where's the NES and SNES can look okay on a modern day display, a lot of people are going to have their childhood memories shattered when they see a blurry, early 3D game running at 12fps on their giant screen a home.

Also, the Mini console boom may be over now and that's another thing Nintendo may have taken into consideration. The newly released Sega Mega Drive/Genesis was fantastic, especially after all the half-arsed efforts that were coming out from third parties until Sega finally gave a shit and did it themselves, but is already available in some places with a significant discount. And there was that recent thread about Konami being worried that the PC Engine mini console pre-orders have been weak (https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumor-pc-engine-mini-pre-orders-are-faring-very-poorly.1518463/unread). This I attribute to a lot of cowboy companies jumping on the mini console/tiny arcade machine band wagon and flooding the market with absolute garbage and now customers are more wary. Nobody needed dogshit like this running a single terrible old NES game;







So there probably won't be a Mini N64 anytime soon but that doesn't mean people won't be able to play it's great games. Be it remakes or emulation on newer home hardware (official or 'otherwise'), there will always be a way to make people tear their palms into bloody messes via Mario Party.


 

psygn0sis

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NES/SNES Mini are nothing more than Raspberry Pi 3 Ninty-branded and Raspberry Pi 3 can't handle N64 emulation on many games.
 
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Sp3eD

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Make it on switch online. It’s laughable how everybody was going crazy for the NES and SNES minis and then Nintendo just put the switch stuff up and made them completely irrelevant.
 

laser_printer

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NES/SNES Mini are nothing more than Raspberry Pi 3 Ninty-branded and Raspberry Pi 3 can't handle N64 emulation on many games.
And the Logitech F310 costs even less to manufacture than wholesale. But a controller with an analogue stick would cost more to manufacture than one that is just moulded plastic with a circuit board and a rubber membrane inside it. If Nintendo were to make N64 controller for a Mini Console they would have to pay to re-engineer it, fire up a plant and build new moulds, and because it wasn't the most robust controller initially they would have to make a call on whether to stick true to the original design or risk 'affecting the purity' by say subbing in the more sturdy GC analouge stick (which some people do as a mod themselves). And this is all about the controller - still have to make the actual software and hardware.

Then Nintendo has to weigh up if all this R&D and manufacture cost is worth the potential sales. A Mini N64 would probably sell less than the NES or SNES variants and cost more to make. These mini consoles are built to a cost and to a particular RRP to maximise profit and with an N64 it just doesn't seem to be as an easy pay day. Plus, where's the NES and SNES can look okay on a modern day display, a lot of people are going to have their childhood memories shattered when they see a blurry, early 3D game running at 12fps on their giant screen a home.

Also, the Mini console boom may be over now and that's another thing Nintendo may have taken into consideration. The newly released Sega Mega Drive/Genesis was fantastic, especially after all the half-arsed efforts that were coming out from third parties until Sega finally gave a shit and did it themselves, but is already available in some places with a significant discount. And there was that recent thread about Konami being worried that the PC Engine mini console pre-orders have been weak (https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumor-pc-engine-mini-pre-orders-are-faring-very-poorly.1518463/unread). This I attribute to a lot of cowboy companies jumping on the mini console/tiny arcade machine band wagon and flooding the market with absolute garbage and now customers are more wary. Nobody needed dogshit like this running a single terrible old NES game;



So there probably won't be a Mini N64 anytime soon but that doesn't mean people won't be able to play it's great games. Be it remakes or emulation on newer home hardware (official or 'otherwise'), there will always be a way to make people tear their palms into bloody messes via Mario Party.

Look up retrofighters. Those guys have managed to make a a totally new N64 controller for 30 bucks and they have two versions, one that works on computers and another on original hardware with brand new engineering so it's not like Nintendo doesn't have options if these smaller companies can do it with smaller investments.
 
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CJY

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traditional emulation sucks imo since the dawn of FPGA driven approaches. Well, it’s still good on PC or other computing devices like smart phones or SBC, but as a stand-alone device, I won’t buy another piece of plastic that only does software emulation. They’re a waste of time and resources. FPGA/ASIC or go home.
 
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Ban Puncher

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Look up retrofighters. Those guys have managed to make a a totally new N64 controller for 30 bucks and they have two versions, one that works on computers and another on original hardware with brand new engineering so it's not like Nintendo doesn't have options if these smaller companies can do it with smaller investments.
enthusiast market =/= mainstream market
 
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nkarafo

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Just adding: FUCKING TRASH Controller.
The only single analog controller where you can play FPS games properly, using similar schemes as modern controls. It gives you the option to hold it's left side and use the D-pad + analog, plus the trigger for shooting and L for aiming.

It was the first controller where this scheme first appeared and became possible. Dual analog controller only just refined it by replacing the D-pad with another analog.

If you want real trash look at the Dreamcast controller.
 
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nkarafo

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i would want FPGA emulation to finally tackle that n64 tho
FPGA won't do better than software if there isn't enough information/knowledge to make an accurate, 100% compatible, mature N64 emulator.

Plus, any existing attempts at LLE and accurate graphics (angrylion) require no less than a top desktop CPU to run at full speed and even then you have edge cases where you have to wait for future CPUs with even better IPC. Are FPGAs even powerful enough for accurate N64 emulation?
 
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Spukc

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FPGA won't do better than software if there isn't enough information/knowledge to make an accurate, 100% compatible, mature N64 emulator.

Plus, any existing attempts at LLE and accurate graphics (angrylion) require no less than a top desktop CPU to run at full speed and even then you have edge cases where you have to wait for future CPUs with even better IPS. Are FPGAs even powerful enough for accurate N64 emulation?
the FPGA on the DE-10 NANO has enough logic blocks to contain the whole n64.
so it would def work in theory.
 

SCB3

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Is there a good enough PC emulator for N64 games yet or are we still on PJ64 stuff? Not followed that scene for awhile
 

nkarafo

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the FPGA on the DE-10 NANO has enough logic blocks to contain the whole n64.
so it would def work in theory.
Still, you need the code to fill them. If you take a look at existing FPGA solutions you will see that all the systems are close to perfect and all had already close to perfect and accurate software emulators before that. There isn't a FPGA system that does better than the best software emulator, it's either a bit worse or the exact same. I don't expect the N64 to be different. And right now there isn't a mature, accurate core. CEN64 is abandoned and Larper64 is completely new (less than a month old) and still preliminary with no sound or any options, not to mention it's closed source so i don't know how this will help further N64 development. The only open source, accurate and mature enough thing that exists about the N64 is the angrylion graphics plugin but it's still missing features and it's not 100% compatible as a FPGA should be.

So in other words, anyone who is going to make a FPGA for the N64 will also have to figure out how to accurately emulate the thing.
 

Spukc

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Still, you need the code to fill them. If you take a look at existing FPGA solutions you will see that all the systems are close to perfect and all had already close to perfect and accurate software emulators before that. There isn't a FPGA system that does better than the best software emulator, it's either a bit worse or the exact same. I don't expect the N64 to be different. And right now there isn't a mature, accurate core. CEN64 is abandoned and Larper64 is completely new (less than a month old) and still preliminary with no sound or any options, not to mention it's closed source so i don't know how this will help further N64 development. The only open source, accurate and mature enough thing that exists about the N64 is the angrylion graphics plugin but it's still missing features and it's not 100% compatible as a FPGA should be.

So in other words, anyone who is going to make a FPGA for the N64 will also have to figure out how to accurately emulate the thing.
people laughed at sega CD being on a fpga.
it will depend heavily on the community.

only time will tell
 
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nkarafo

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Is there a good enough PC emulator for N64 games yet or are we still on PJ64 stuff? Not followed that scene for awhile
The best thing you can do is a custom Mupen64 build (m64p) using the latest GlideN64 graphics plugin, which has matured pretty well but it's still HLE. 90% of games will run without problems. Any midrange PC will be able to handle that but no raspberries or low-end android devices. If you want better accuracy and emulate even the N64 filters you need the latest multithreaded angrylion graphics plugin in that build. This however will require a fast 4th gen i3 at least. And even that won't be enough for a lot of games. I have an i5 and many games still won't run well, i assume even the latest, baddest CPU won't be able to run a few games at full speed.

people laughed at sega CD being on an fpga.
it will depend heavily on the community.

only time will tell
There's already a couple of almost perfect open source Sega CD emulators. GenesisPlusGX and Picodrive. Plus a few closed source ones. I would be a bit more impressed if they also had a 32X FPGA core.
 
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nkarafo

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NO.




YES


N64 aged like milk. It would be tough getting those games to look good on a modern screen, while sprite-based games can be filtered and upscaled to at least look decent (though not exactly accurate) on a modern display.
With RetroArch and the correct shaders you can make anything look good and pretty accurate. Though the N64 is somewhat hard, here's my take (view full image for correct scanlines):



I feel like this is the closest i can get to a real N64 using a few shaders, with the correct amount of blur and antialiasing, without using angrylion. You can make it sharper if you want but i like some blur on the N64 for the accurate look.
 
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Cattlyst

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Won't happen. Not because of any computing power but because having an analogue stick drives the cost of the controller hardware right up over just a simple all digital button pad with all the specialised and tiny moving parts required.

It's why Sony cheaped out on including Dual Shocks in with the PlayStation Classic Console.
This. This is the exact reason why 'mini' versions of post 32-bit era consoles won't happen for a long time. Emulation isn't the thing holding them back. It's the ability to create super cheap repros of the controllers that have analogue at their heart. Same reason we probably won't see a mini Dreamcast any time soon - that system had analogue triggers as well as a stick.
 

nkarafo

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maybe on a filthy ntsc crt
def not here
A filthy CRT is what i had :(

Guess you can disable this or use a different mask, like a trinitron or somethign else. Original point is, you can make it look as you like in RetroAech.
 

Spukc

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A filthy CRT is what i had :(

Guess you can disable this or use a different mask, like a trinitron or somethign else. Original point is, you can make it look as you like in RetroAech.
i have seen better filters. But yeah you can come really close in looks.
those scanlines are just weird as hell.
 

nkarafo

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i have seen better filters.
You mean filters that make the N64 look good or ones that make it look accurate?

Excluding the scanlines that depend on the CRT model, i don't think you can get a more accurate representation of N64 graphics than this.

But make it look good/better than the real N64? That's the easiest thing. Just don't use any filters.


Edit: BTW, this is the raw output of Angrylion (pixel perfect, accurate plugin).



This is how the real N64 looks without the CRT treatment. Which is how a FPGA would look, assuming you want 100% accuracy. There are ways to disable the native antialiasing and ditheting filters to make it sharper but it will cause other artifacts and pixellation. Some of the low res textures expect those filters in order to look correct.
 
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SegaShack

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nothing great about n64. Yes those 18 fps Zelda games were really great... ROFL

Expensive to manufacture and the emulation is crap.

Just adding: FUCKING TRASH Controller. I don't even want it to scratch the depths of my ass.
Yes everyone back in the day complained about the framerate, and how the games were unenjoyable because of it.

/s

Gamers now are so nitpicky. Awesome games on that system, which is all that matters.
 
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Vawn

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The N64 was probably the most dissapointing console I ever owned. After NES and SNES, I was convinced Nintendo consoles would always blow away the competition.

Starting with Mario 64 it seemed like it would again. But outside of Mario and Zelda, there wasn't a whole lot. Losing third-parties like Squaresoft was too much and I found myself spending 90% of my gaming focus on PlayStation.
 

jufonuk

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Does Nintendo need to maneuver back into the Mini crowd to pump up their fans?

We seem to have moved on from N64 mini talks when the Switch Lite talk came up, now the holidays have passed and Nintendo loss that opportunity to dominate this niche console crowd, for me an N64 mini is Day 1.

GAF?
The truth is that a lot of the classic N64 games would have aged badly. Compared to the NES and SNES. Unless they can get goldeneye in the system I personally wouldn’t want one.