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Nintendo, achievements and Super Mario 3D Land

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
Well thats a decision nintendo has made. Maybe they thought people that care about achievements are not likely to buy nintendo systems and games anyway
Well they choose not to because frankly people that care about achievements most likely moved on to the competition and nothing nintendo will do on that front will bring them back unless its something truly groundbreaking in the achievements department

Well I'm not sure about groundbreaking, but they were in the perfect position to introduce a meaningful achievement system. Microsoft and Sony laid the groundwork, but really only did the bare minimum.
 

btkadams

Member
I'm by no means a trophy-whore, but I do wish there were system-level achievements on 3DS and Wii U. I don't check it often, but it's cool to look at games my friends and I both own and compare what we did. I most definitely enjoy in-game achievements like the OP outlined, but I do wish there was a standard system implemented.
 
I think achievements can add more value and fun to games, but they aren't necessary. I have friends who have accomplished ridiculous feats in games (Such as beating Bioshock in hard mode without dying, getting all the audio files, etc) that I can look at on Xbox Live. It's fun.
 
Yes, if those achievements were arbitrary and nothing more than a ploy to keep you from selling the game back to GameStop (i.e. get killed by 100 goombas!)

So you're saying Nintendo couldn't come up with good achievements and instead would just put junk in there? And you're saying this after they releases a game where they fell you to get a million coins to unlock a new title screen?
 

Nekki

Member
http://www.ps3trophies.org/game/uncharted-drakes-fortune/trophies/

Achievement/Trophy lists like these are just mundane tasks that are trying to pass for something that deepens the game experience.

They do not. They're useless. I don't want anything like this in any game whatsoever.

Achievements should be that, something you achieve. Kill X boss with a knife. Finish X stage without dying, in a platformer for example. Totally optional things that present a challenge to the user. The reward is good either being a piece of text or a useful item. Of course a useful item is much more useful to the game than a piece of text you can brag about.

Kill 50 enemies with every gun in the game (for example) is not a challenge.

So you're saying Nintendo couldn't come up with good achievements and instead would just put junk in there? And you're saying this after they releases a game where they fell you to get a million coins to unlock a new title screen?

Why nag on this so much? It is a shitty incentive, that's for sure, but alongside you have Kid Icarus' Treasure Hunt and 3DLand's challenge, which fhar outweigh the million coins.
 
http://www.ps3trophies.org/game/uncharted-drakes-fortune/trophies/

Achievement/Trophy lists like these are just mundane tasks that are trying to pass for something that deepens the game experience.

They do not. They're useless. I don't want anything like this in any game whatsoever.

Achievements should be that, something you achieve. Kill X boss with a knife. Finish X stage without dying, in a platformer for example. Totally optional things that present a challenge to the user. The reward is good either being a piece of text or a useful item. Of course a useful item is much more useful to the game than a piece of text you can brag about.

Kill 50 enemies with every gun in the game (for example) is not a challenge.



Why nag on this so much? It is a shitty incentive, that's for sure, but alongside you have Kid Icarus' Treasure Hunt and 3DLand's challenge, which fhar outweigh the million coins.

I'm nagging on it because the argument presented was "achievements are dumb and just exist to stop you selling a game to GameStop" when I was talking about a game that seems to go out its way to do just that. I have no problem with it as a goal. As I said earlier though, I liked that game and would have been cool with achievements to give me more reason to replay.
 

Javier

Member
So you're saying Nintendo couldn't come up with good achievements and instead would just put junk in there? And you're saying this after they releases a game where they fell you to get a million coins to unlock a new title screen?
What achievements could you add to NSMB2 that don't feel like pointlessly fattening up the game and isn't in the game already?
 
I don't really care for achievements but it would have been awesome if Nintendo could have created an achievement system that linked well with MiiVerse while also making it easy to organize them. I just don't understand them leaving it out...
 

TheOGB

Banned
I've always said that the ideal system would be Smash Bros. trophy system on an OS-level.
Pretty much this. Nothing wrong with system-level achievements, just have some kind of proportional reward instead of a meaningless point value.

Or better, give the points actual value. Make em like play coins or something; let us "purchase" things with the points we get from doing well in a game (in-game or out; hats/clothes for our Miis, maybe? Stationary in Swapnote?)
 
What achievements could you add to NSMB2 that don't feel like pointlessly fattening up the game and isn't in the game already?

Time trials based on completion time. Beating worlds without losing a life. The usual stuff. If you think giving somebody more things to do is "pointlessly fattening up" the game than we're just gonna disagree. But I don't see how you could say they'd make the game worse for you, and they'd make it better for me.
 

Javier

Member
Time trials based on completion time. Beating worlds without losing a life. The usual stuff. If you think giving somebody more things to do is "pointlessly fattening up" the game than we're just gonna disagree. But I don't see how you could say they'd make the game worse for you, and they'd make it better for me.
Time Trials are not achievements. You're thinking of leaderboards, which I agree would have been a nice addition.

And how would you implement "Beat worlds without losing a life"? As in, if you lose a life, the achievement is lost forever and have to start a file all over? That seems unfairly cruel just to achieve something.

It seems to me that people just like to suggest achievement lists without ever bothering to check if this stuff can actually be executed proper. I don't mind achievements, but adding them for the sake of "more stuff to do", you might as well suggest "Stomp on 1,000 Goombas" or "Lose a life on every stage".
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
While a new title screen is a rubbish reward (though not exactly a new thing from Nintendo I may add) for a million coins I don't see how a little message popping up is any better.
 

Servbot24

Banned
I would love it if Nintendo integrated a SSB type trophy reward system on an OS level. Wouldn't be hard for devs to accommodate, just throw some models on a trophy pedestal.
 
Time Trials are not achievements. You're thinking of leaderboards, which I agree would have been a nice addition.

What? Beat Level 1-1 in less than one minute, get achievement. That's an achievement. You could also do leaderboards in addition to this.

And how would you implement "Beat worlds without losing a life"? As in, if you lose a life, the achievement is lost forever and have to start a file all over? That seems unfairly cruel just to achieve something.

The achievement would work precisely like the Miiverse prompts in New Super Mario Bros. U in that you give out an achievement for not having to use another life on the same level.

It seems to me that people just like to suggest achievement lists without ever bothering to check if this stuff can actually be executed proper.

Conversely, I think it can be argued that some are so down on the very notion of achievements that they write them off without even bothering to check if this stuff can actually be executed quite easily.
 
If they were going to do achievements for 3DS, they should've earned you Play Coins. I think the people that like achievements would've really gotten hooked on a constant reward system that then integrates into a system where you save up and use those coins to play an OS-level Find Mii game or buy 3D posters.
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
What? Beat Level 1-1 in less than one minute, get achievement. That's an achievement. You could also do leaderboards in addition to this.



The achievement would work precisely like the Miiverse prompts in New Super Mario Bros. U in that you give out an achievement for not having to use another life on the same level.



Conversely, I think it can be argued that some are so down on the very notion of achievements that they write them off without even bothering to check if this stuff can actually be executed quite easily.

Exactly this, achievements should be challenges that make you go "neat, I'd like to try that". They get a bad rep because some lazy companies make the "Press Start to begin the game" achievements.

They're there to give some people reason to go back to go a game who might not usually do that. I personally try to get all the Star Coins in NSMB games anyway, why not get an achievement to show off to my friends for doing it.
 

AntMurda

Member
The XBOX 360 score achievement is ok, but SONY's trophy achievement is definitely the best of the bunch.

Nintendo's lack of anything just sucks. If you are going to bother having in-game achievements, it be cool to figure out a way to track those feats somehow on the OS. It actually encourages people to go back and finish certain tasks.
 
Time Trials are not achievements. You're thinking of leaderboards, which I agree would have been a nice addition.

And how would you implement "Beat worlds without losing a life"? As in, if you lose a life, the achievement is lost forever and have to start a file all over? That seems unfairly cruel just to achieve something.

It seems to me that people just like to suggest achievement lists without ever bothering to check if this stuff can actually be executed proper. I don't mind achievements, but adding them for the sake of "more stuff to do", you might as well suggest "Stomp on 1,000 Goombas" or "Lose a life on every stage".

Time trials as in "beat this level in x seconds". "Beat par on all levels in world 3". And no, obviously you wouldn't need a new save file to do the no deaths thing.

None if this stuff us difficult to execute. This is why it's exclusion is tedious.
 

Christopher

Member
Never have I seen fans so die hard about a. Huge missing feature that's totally optional.

I'm sorry if they released their game for the 8th time again id like some insetive or new way to find something that maybe I overlooked before
 

Javier

Member
What? Beat Level 1-1 in less than one minute, get achievement. That's an achievement. You could also do leaderboards in addition to this.



The achievement would work precisely like the Miiverse prompts in New Super Mario Bros. U in that you give out an achievement for not having to use another life on the same level.



Conversely, I think it can be argued that some are so down on the very notion of achievements that they write them off without even bothering to check if this stuff can actually be executed quite easily.
1.- But if you like to compete through timed runs, all you need is a leaderboard, really. By the time you start going for the top time you don't really care about the achievement. It's redundant.

2.- That would be "Beating each level without losing a life", not "Whole worlds". Also, if done like Miiverse prompts, it would mean permanently missing on achievements, or having to go play a different level in order to be able to retry the previous level in case you screw up.

Again, people need to check if this stuff actually works.

3.- Again, I'm not against the concept of achievements. I'm against adding them for the sake of pointlessly fattening up a game.
 

Christopher

Member
"Pointlessly fattening up a game"...as opposed to that's right nothing

Remeber what happened when you got all the shines in Mario sunshine not a damn thing. Your telling me your opposed to a system saying hey nice job you got all the shines instead of nothig...?
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
1.- But if you like to compete through timed runs, all you need is a leaderboard, really. By the time you start going for the top time you don't really care about the achievement. It's redundant.

2.- That would be "Beating each level without losing a life", not "Whole worlds". Also, if done like Miiverse prompts, it would mean permanently missing on achievements, or having to go play a different level in order to be able to retry the previous level in case you screw up.

Again, people need to check if this stuff actually works.

3.- Again, I'm not against the concept of achievements. I'm against adding them for the sake of pointlessly fattening up a game.

1. Sure a leaderboard would also be nice, same as achievements. The people who want to compete will, and those that don't, can ignore it.
2. Complete World 3 without losing a life, pretty self explanatory, start at 3-1, and finish every level without dying in one run. No need to create a new save file. You never permanently miss out on achievements.

It works, You're just arguing the worst case scenario each time.
 
1.- But if you like to compete through timed runs, all you need is a leaderboard, really. By the time you start going for the top time you don't really care about the achievement. It's redundant.

Perhaps I just need to be prodded to beat a respectable time on a particular level without trying to go for the best time in the world/among my friends? This is how the challenges work in New Super Mario Bros. U. A leaderboard might be useful in addition to this if I was really into this, but they can serve two different purposes.

2.- That would be "Beating each level without losing a life", not "Whole worlds". Also, if done like Miiverse prompts, it would mean permanently missing on achievements, or having to go play a different level in order to be able to retry the previous level in case you screw up.

I think you are employing semantics to misunderstand what is being argued. And even if worlds was meant instead of levels, I would assume that we would again just be talking about beating all the individual levels without having to use multiple lives, which is easily tracked. This doesn't necessitate a new save file for every attempt.

You are being unfairly dismissive and reading into suggestions what you want to make them appear more stupid than they are.
 

MrT-Tar

Member
"Pointlessly fattening up a game"...as opposed to that's right nothing

Remeber what happened when you got all the shines in Mario sunshine not a damn thing. Your telling me your opposed to a system saying hey nice job you got all the shines instead of nothig...?

I'm opposed to a console manufacturer forcing developers to programme such messages in every game on their platform. I have no problem with developers choosing to implement them if they personally feel it would be beneficial.
 
Definitely need tons of rewards and unlockables for player achievement in a game. Adds tons to the game, for sure.

The overarching, detached, annoying, intrusive Trophy/Achievement system isn't it; much prefer the game-by-game approach.

I know I'm in the minority in this one, but I really hate OS-level achievements. I don't want to be constantly reminded that I'm playing a game on a certain system with all the PS/XB-flavored notifications, etc. I want to be immersed in the audio and visuals of my game world, and I want the rewards to fit into that world too, notifications and all.



They ruin in-game immersion. Done.
What I don't get about the notification argument is that I've never seen people moaning as much about their friend list notifications. And these are way more random than achievement/trophy notifications.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Time Trials are not achievements. You're thinking of leaderboards, which I agree would have been a nice addition.

And how would you implement "Beat worlds without losing a life"? As in, if you lose a life, the achievement is lost forever and have to start a file all over? That seems unfairly cruel just to achieve something.

It seems to me that people just like to suggest achievement lists without ever bothering to check if this stuff can actually be executed proper. I don't mind achievements, but adding them for the sake of "more stuff to do", you might as well suggest "Stomp on 1,000 Goombas" or "Lose a life on every stage".

dude, have you ever played a game that has achievements? :p
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
I'm opposed to a console manufacturer forcing developers to programme such messages in every game on their platform. I have no problem with developers choosing to implement them if they personally feel it would be beneficial.

They don't even have to force developers to do it, but at least giving them the tools to do it easily, and have it integrated right into the system with extra stuff like coins you can spend on things.

Game specific achievements are next to pointless if they don't offer something else, like Kid Icarus' actually do.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Time Trials are not achievements. You're thinking of leaderboards, which I agree would have been a nice addition.

And how would you implement "Beat worlds without losing a life"? As in, if you lose a life, the achievement is lost forever and have to start a file all over? That seems unfairly cruel just to achieve something.

It seems to me that people just like to suggest achievement lists without ever bothering to check if this stuff can actually be executed proper. I don't mind achievements, but adding them for the sake of "more stuff to do", you might as well suggest "Stomp on 1,000 Goombas" or "Lose a life on every stage".

Dude...what?
 
There's no argument I've ever read that successfully makes a valid case for system achievements being a bad thing.

In-game unlockables are great too, but it isn't either/or. The replay value of a lot of Nintendo games could be improved with simple achievements. Smash Bros Melee basically had achievements and it made the game a lot better. But that's the exception, not the norm.

They encourage lazy game design. I realized this when playing Assassin's Creed 3 on Wii U after years of playing them on achievement capable hardware. Without the carrot of an achievement, I didn't feel compelled to put up with the BS required to get 100% sync, and if you aren't trying to get 100% sync the level and mission design falls apart.

It was like peeking behind the curtain and learning that there is no wizard.
 

lamaroo

Unconfirmed Member
They encourage lazy game design. I realized this when playing Assassin's Creed 3 on Wii U after years of playing them on achievement capable hardware. Without the carrot of an achievement, I didn't feel compelled to put up with the BS required to get 100% sync, and if you aren't trying to get 100% sync the level and mission design falls apart.

It was like peeking behind the curtain and learning that there is no wizard.

That's not the fault of achievements, that's the fault of bad developers.
 

Christopher

Member
They encourage lazy game design. I realized this when playing Assassin's Creed 3 on Wii U after years of playing them on achievement capable hardware. Without the carrot of an achievement, I didn't feel compelled to put up with the BS required to get 100% sync, and if you aren't trying to get 100% sync the level and mission design falls apart.

It was like peeking behind the curtain and learning that there is no wizard.

How is that the fault of the achievement system? Bad game design is not the fault of a reward system acknowledging your gaming feats...

For instance if Nintendo re-releases Mario Kart:

Play an entire race with Yoshi or beat cup within such a specific time is really something that bad...? I have a Wii U, I get "Nintendo Pride" but to stand up for something that is so simplistic yet rewarding to so many is such a fault.

If they had achievements on the Pokémon games we may never see kids again.
 
My personal problem with trophies/achievments is they are mostly nonsensical afterthought additions even to games whose structure hasn't planned to have such a reward system. I'm glad Nintendo didn't embrace such an annoying feature and I think that OP's execellent example with SM3DLand is what all developers should aim in their game.
 

TheOGB

Banned
I would love it if Nintendo integrated a SSB type trophy reward system on an OS level. Wouldn't be hard for devs to accommodate, just throw some models on a trophy pedestal.
Instead of scrolling through friends' achievement lists, invite them (their Mii) to your achievement gallery.


How is that the fault of the achievement system? Bad game design is not the fault of a reward system acknowledging your gaming feats...

For instance if Nintendo re-releases Mario Kart:

Play an entire race with Yoshi or beat cup within such a specific time is really something that bad...? I have a Wii U, I get "Nintendo Pride" but to stand up for something that is so simplistic yet rewarding to so many is such a fault.

If they had achievements on the Pokémon games we may never see kids again.
They do on Black 2/White 2
 
They encourage lazy game design. I realized this when playing Assassin's Creed 3 on Wii U after years of playing them on achievement capable hardware. Without the carrot of an achievement, I didn't feel compelled to put up with the BS required to get 100% sync, and if you aren't trying to get 100% sync the level and mission design falls apart.

It was like peeking behind the curtain and learning that there is no wizard.

If you let achievements dictate how you play a game, thats your problem, not mine. Just because achievements can be dumb or boring doesn't mean the concept is flawed and Nintendo shouldn't be supporting it on an OS level. I assume, for better or worse, that Nintendo is capable of implementing achievements for their games that won't be shit.
 
What are ghosts in Mario Kart, then? In Mario 3D Land you have a timer that you can compare with people that you cross by Streetpass. Why not online? Or OS level? And also completing a level without being hit, like the stage I was talking about and made it so interesting. Or even with more than 100 coins, like Sunshine did, if I'm not wrong.

But obviously, optional stuff that adds replay value and gives some sort of small reward each time you achieve something, even if it is a notification.



Then why is it a bad thing. If people does it, it means theres fun into it. And also, what if somebody doesn't think about that things by themselves. Or because they are not from the 90s...
What? I didn't mean to intend that achievements are bad. I like the idea of achievements/trophies. I just personally don't have the collectors itch to get them all.

I'm just saying that it's not surprising that someone would draw a parallel between collecting coins in Super Mario games and achievements because "achievements" were around far before anyone decided to put a point system in to represent them. You would just collect stuff to collect all the stuff. Now you collect stuff to collect all the stuff and get all the achievements. It's just another layer that can add more to the game.

I think what you're ignoring is that some people need some direction in terms of what to do in the playground. Sure, some players are fine on their own setting their own goals are in general just messing around with the system and seeing what's possible. But others just stick with the objectives that are directly in front of them. It doesn't have to be just about getting fifty points or what have you in as much as it can be about rethinking what's possible in the game world.

And this extends beyond just the system-wide achievements. Whether it's a laundry list of checboxes that add up to 1,000 points, or getting the 3 star coins in every level, the point of these carrots is to focus your attention on exploration or any of numerous other mechanics you may not have considered in addition to challenging you to simply get from Point A to Point B while jumping on/avoiding enemies.
See above. Achievements are cool, I totally get why people would enjoy them. They're just not something I personally set out to do anymore then I would to get everything anyway. I'm teetering at the edge of like a 900/950 gamerscore on some games but I'm not going to go out of my way to get the other 100 because those aren't things I personally want to spend time doing.
 

RionaaM

Unconfirmed Member
Quite possibly the lamest excuse ever. I've seen it a few times too.
It actually did for me, during a certain part in Spec Ops: The Line. The achievement box popped up just as a powerful scene was finishing, totally ruining the mood.

That said, it's the only time I had it happen, but I didn't like it at all.
 
Remeber what happened when you got all the shines in Mario sunshine not a damn thing. Your telling me your opposed to a system saying hey nice job you got all the shines instead of nothig...?

No, when you get all the shines in Mario Sunshine, you unlock a Hawaiian shirt for Mario, and a congratulations screen after beating bowser (again). Mario 64 lets you meet yoshi, and mario galaxy 1/2 give you a bonus level. All the 3D console marios have given you a reward for 100% completion.
 

EVH

Member
My personal problem with trophies/achievments is they are mostly nonsensical afterthought additions even to games whose structure hasn't planned to have such a reward system. I'm glad Nintendo didn't embrace such an annoying feature and I think that OP's execellent example with SM3DLand is what all developers should aim in their game.

I think we all can agree that nonsensical achievments are just another bad design decission / lazy choice in games, and that there are lots of examples for that nowadays.

But personally, and with the SM3DLand example, I can see the life of that game could be considerably expanded with a few ideas such as "kill all the enemies in the level X", "get 100 coins on every level", "complete the X level without being hit" or "beat the last stage as mini mario without using objects". This all is stuff that of course, one can do by himself, but the fact that they give you guidelines and that this counts as an added feature in game, is what I'm talking about when I say getting rewards such as a small notification.
 

Chairhome

Member
Not a big fan of achievements, but I love things that either reward me (with some kind of unlockable or something) for an accomplishment or make me feel like a badass without having to say "achievement unlocked". Case in point, SM3Land spoiler
having unlocked the final level and painstakingly beating it. The end of the level with the "thank you" was a nice touch.
. Really tested my resolve, and it was something that I really wanted to do because the game is so good.
 
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