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[CrunchinJelly]

I thought we'd gone through this shit.

Last month Kirby was 50Hz.

Super Metroid is out this week for 30p and guess what?

50-fucking-Hertz.

Fix this shit, Nintendo.

This is the European version of the game, which was optimised originally by the developer to offer gameplay and music speed similar to the US version. Demos and animations may run at PAL speed. The aspect ratio has been corrected for this release.

 

[Hasney]

They're claiming that 50Hz optimised versions are just as good. In some cases, they are, but Super Metroid wasn't one of them.

The reason is the languages. If a game was translated for other countries, we get the PAL version. No idea why they can't throw up the US ROM for the UK at the very least.

I really don't understand the logic behind it, the language reasoning especially since Super Mario World probably has more text than Super Metroid and also the fact that they had no problem releasing Mario's Super Picross which was in Japanese with the English tutorials and explanation being in the digital manual.

In the other VC PAL thread, they were saying that Super Mario World never got translated for Europe until the GBA version. No idea on the validity of that.

 

[MKUltra]

I really don't understand the logic behind it, the language reasoning especially since Super Mario World probably has more text than Super Metroid and also the fact that they had no problem releasing Mario's Super Picross which was in Japanese with the English tutorials and explanation being in the digital manual.

 

[Waylon Drums]

I'm not fully up on my 50-60 hz stuff, but was 50 hz the way the games were played by European folks when they were originally released? Given Nintendo's odd fascination with giving everyone the original experience again, flaws and all, maybe that's why? Not that I agree with their line of thinking, but I can't think of another reason they'd keep doing it.

 

[ashbash159]

Oh, I didn't know that. I won't be getting that this week, then.

 

[Glass Rebel]

We Yuropeans are too dumb to understand that the last Metroid is in captivity.

 

[v1oz]

The screen refresh rate really shouldn't affect game speed. Some of those games are just shoddy port jobs. Because the internal frame rate and the screen refresh rate of a game are different.

 

[Neo Child]

MiiVerse protest!

 

[Hasney]

I'm not fully up on my 50-60 hz stuff, but was 50 hz the way the games were played by European folks when they were originally released? Given Nintendo's odd fascination with giving everyone the original experience again, flaws and all, maybe that's why? Not that I agree with their line of thinking, but I can't think of another reason they'd keep doing it.

So far, this is what happened:

Balloon Fight released at 50Hz kicked off all the hoopla.
Nintendo announced that F-Zero and Punch-Out!! were the 60Hz versions as they came out.
Kirby's Adventure came out at 50Hz in "optimised" format
All the other games that came out on the VC launch were 60Hz I believe (someone feel free to correct me on that one)
Super Metroid will be 50Hz.

 

[NotLiquid]

The reason is the languages. If a game was translated for other countries, we get the PAL version. No idea why they can't throw up the US ROM for the UK at the very least.

Prety sure this is the reason. Super Mario World was released in 60hz here despite coming after Kirby which was 50hz after the entire hoopla started. If a game has some sort of European language in it, it's probably going to be released in 50hz.

 

[Jazzem]

...this was the one VC promotion game I was hoping would be in 60Hz -_-

 

[CrunchinJelly]

This weeks other new releases:

Super Mario Bros 2 - 60Hz
Super Ghouls & Ghosts - 60Hz

So why are they just seemingly doing this at random? Kirby and Metroid? WHY?!

 

[Morfeo]

Seriously? Nintendo gets a lot of shit for overblown stuff, but this is just unacceptable in this day and age.

 

[Yazan]

Ridiculous that we have to do anything.. But please spam all possible mediums. Ffs stupidity at its best

 

[NotLiquid]

This weeks other new releases:

Super Mario Bros 2 - 60Hz
Super Ghouls & Ghosts - 60Hz

So why are they just seemingly doing this at random? Kirby and Metroid? WHY?!

Super Metroid has French and German subtitles in this region.

 

[Baleoce]

And there I thought miiverse was going to be an effective tool for getting our thoughts across to them as direct feedback. Seems more likely that they are just giving us 60Hz games when there is no dialogue in it. I don't care if colour is spelled as color. But I guess they don't see it like that.

 

[Yazan]

Super Metroid has French and German subtitles in this region.

Not very useful in rest of Europe, which makes the whole thing very annoying.

People in UK, Nordics, Spain, Italy or whatever will be very satisfied having that.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Doesn't really bother me tbh since I am so used to playing those games in 50hz. I mean of course I'd rather get the 60hz version but it doesn't really bother me at all. Same for PS1 classics, the only one that is annoying for me is FF9 and that is slow ass game to begin with.

I can imagine going from 60hz to 50hz being a nightmare tho. Few games that I played 60hz first and saw 50hz later were terrible.

 

[Rich!]

You want Nintendo to stop screwing us Europeans over?

do not buy their shoddy 50hz games

If you're aware of the issue, and
annoyed by it then don't buy it. Not even for 30p. If you do, then why would Nintendo ever change their stance? They have your money already!

What I don't understand is why a site like Eurogamer, who by all rights should be sticking up for us, hasn't made a big thing over this. Fucking hell.

 

[BGBW]

People in UK, Nordics, Spain, Italy or whatever will be very satisfied having that.

In the UK we can't even turn off the subs. You have to have one or the other.

 

[Kerub]

Because they despise their customers.

 

[SmokyDave]

In the UK we can't even turn off the subs. You have to have one or the other.

Wait, really?!

.....pffft.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Ack I thought they'd seen sense. Should have known better.

 

[JAYSIMPLE]

So it has borders and runs slower?

 

[Sendou]

Yeah this is pathetic and unacceptable.

 

[Jucksalbe]

I really don't understand the logic behind it, the language reasoning especially since Super Mario World probably has more text than Super Metroid and also the fact that they had no problem releasing Mario's Super Picross which was in Japanese with the English tutorials and explanation being in the digital manual.

The difference is that the games you mentioned were never originally translated. They are not doing new translations for VC games, but they include them if they already exist.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

What I don't understand is why a site like Eurogamer, who by all rights should be sticking up for us, hasn't made a big thing over this. Fucking hell.

They've got bills to pay, dude. Don't want to upset the apple-cart...

 

[Jucksalbe]

So it has borders and runs slower?

The description says they corrected the aspect ratio, whatever that means exactly.

 

[Mael]

In the other VC PAL thread, they were saying that Super Mario World never got translated for Europe until the GBA version. No idea on the validity of that.

In Super Metroid, for the French/Holland version they put subtitles in the cinematics to translate the voice acting in these 2 languages specifically (the Wii VC is that exactly too).
In SMW, everything is in English so when they 1rst released (in the 90's) it they must have converted it to PAL/Secam and called it a day with everything else intact.
That's why SMW is different from Super Metroid for them I guess.

 

[The_Lump]

Call me naive, but what's the noticeable difference exactly?

 

[Mileena]

If the sheep keep buying, Nintendo keeps shitting on you guys. Stop buying this garbage and send them a message.

 

[Foshy]

Call me naive, but what's the noticeable difference exactly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqEls6Wk3Ps

 

[Beer Monkey]

Nintendo is lazy as fuck when it comes to this stuff. Localizing ROMs is always very, very do-able, even if original source code is missing. GBA games can be patched to support pausing (flash cart utilities can do this for most GBA games, so this is already proven). Changing color palettes to match colors on different LCD screens is not hard either. And so on.

Nintendo just doesn't give a shit.

 

[ec0ec0]

people... I understand that for many, me included, 50hz pal was the original version but... theres not reason for paying for something that is not the "true" game again. Pay for 60hz but not for 50hz. If back in the day you thought that games like pal super mario 64 were mind blowing... try them on 60 hz.

 

[Jucksalbe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqEls6Wk3Ps

To be fair, that's only a suitable comparison for games that had no PAL "optimization" done in the past at all. The difference for Super Metroid is not that big.

 

[Coolwhip]

... Nintendo. Hope a Miiverse protest helps.

Great service to the fans! Cough.

 

[wrowa]

I would be okay with it, if Nintendo wouldn't charge a premium for VC games. Games outside of the current promotion, are ridiculously overpriced and even though Nintendo charges a defty premium, they don't offer a premium service. That's a joke.

Honestly, even if it's too much work to retranslate the old 60Hz ROMs, could you at least give us the option to decide whether we want to play the 50Hz localized version or the 60Hz english-only? That's not much too ask for, is it? We give you fucking 5€ for fucking Ice Climber after all. That's about 5€ more than it's worth!

 

[Omikaru]

And I was looking forward to Super Metroid too. Won't be buying any garbage 50hz version of games.

 

[also]

To be fair, that's only a suitable comparison for games that had no PAL "optimization" done in the past at all. The difference for Super Metroid is not that big.

Actually, this version will be worse than the original version in terms of controls:

Yeah, the difference on PAL and NTSC consoles is pretty miniscule. But now the Wii U can only output a 60hz signal, it means 50hz games have to repeat every 5th frame creating the new janky effect that wasn't actually present on consoles.

It's not just "This is going to be as bad as it was when we were kids", it is in fact "This is going to be worse now than when we were kids".

And the translation apparently sucks and the game isn't even fully translated, only the intro and self destruct message are.

Just to clarify the Super Metroid situation:
Upon starting the European version, you have to choose either German or French subtitles. The whole game is still completely in English, but short subtitles are added in the intro and for the self-destruct emergency messages.

The menus and explanations you see whenever you pick up a new item, are all in English only.

What's worse though (and what bothered me even back then), is that the subtitles feel like the "cliffnotes" version (at least the German ones, can't judge the French ones). I guess they had to shorten them because of space limitations, but just to show you two examples from the intro:

English:
I first battled the Metroids on Planet Zebes. It was there that I foiled the plans of the space pirate leader Mother Brain to use the creatures to attack galactic civilization.

German sub:
Auf Zebes bekämpfte ich die Metroids und ihren Anführer Mother Brain.

Translated back into English:
I fought the Metroids and their leader Mother Brain on Zebes. (<--- This is just wrong, no matter how you look at it. MB is not the "leader of the Metroids")

English:
I next fought the Metroids on their homeworld, SR388. I completely eradicated them except for a larva, which after hatching followed me like a confused child.

German:
Als nächstes musste ich die Metroids auf ihrem Heimatplaneten SR388 ausrotten.

Translated back:
Next, I had to eradicate the Metroids on their homeworld, SR388.

As you can see, the translations are really bad, even confusing, and I always wondered why Nintendo translated it at all. The story could have been properly explained in the manual, and even without it, you don't even need to understand it to play the game. It's not a visual novel or RPG.

So what I'm saying is: We are getting the inferior 50 Hz version just so we can get the inferior translation. I'm at a loss for words here.

Thanks for nothing, Nintendo.

 

[Jucksalbe]

Honestly, even if it's too much work to retranslate the old 60Hz ROMs, could you at least give us the option to decide whether we want to play the 50Hz localized version or the 60Hz english-only?

It's the solution people should campaign for and really the best solution for everyone. It shouldn't be hard to do at least for Nintendo's own games, I could see this being problematic for games that had different publishers in NA and Europe, though.

 

[Robin64]

I made a little image to better picture what's going on with optimised PAL games, both then and now. It's slightly more technical than this, but this is the basic gist.

In the top row we see the original American release, displaying frames 1 to 20 perfectly.

The second row shows the original PAL SNES release. To get it matching the same speed, they just drop every 5th frame. It's not really all that noticable because the raw output of the SNES is 50hz. There's nothing to account for. It looks okay and plays okay.

The third row is what happens when we take an optimised 50hz game and play it on the Wii U. Because the Wii U can only output at 60hz, this means a 50hz source has to repeat a frame every so often. But because the optimisation already dropped a frame, and now we're repeating one to make up for the hz difference between source and output, we get the effect people are calling "janky". I love the term to describe it.

You can see, the 4th frame is now displayed twice, then the next frame is America's frame 6. If we had the US ROM, we'd just go 4 -> 5 -> 6, but the U "breaks" these optimised games and we're forced to live with 4 -> 4 -> 6. Even without playing, you can imagine this is not ideal..

 

[Jucksalbe]

Why can't they output in 1080p 50Hz, though? I'm pretty sure they do it in Wii mode. Is it because of the GamePad?

 

[Kerub]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqEls6Wk3Ps

Damn, that's a much bigger difference than I thought.

 

[Hasney]

Why can't they output in 1080p 50Hz, though? I'm pretty sure they do it in Wii mode. Is it because of the GamePad?

The Wii U doesn't output a 50Hz signal at all.

 

[Katzii]

At least be reassured that they can't do the same for Earthbound.

Right?

...Right?

 

[Jucksalbe]

The Wii U doesn't output a 50Hz signal at all.

Just checked again. It does output a 50 Hz signal in Wii mode.

At least be reassured that they can't do the same for Earthbound.

Right?

...Right?

There's no 50Hz version of Earthbound, so they have to use the US 60Hz version.

 

[Kontergurke]

What's really stupid is that we're getting Super Metroid and Kirby's Adventure in 50 Hz only because they've been translated into German and French, but both games didn't really need any translation to be playable.

Also, both translations leave something to be desired.
For example, Kirby's Adventure came out at a time when Nintendo Germany would make up their own names for characters if they felt like it. That's why King Dedede is called "König Nickerchen" (King Little Nap) in the German NES version, although they use his real name in later games and Smash Bros. Brawl.

And I already mentioned the shoddy Super Metroid translation.

In other words, those two games are being released in 50 Hz just to give us those bad, old translations nobody asked for, which are inconsistent with later releases or sometimes even factually wrong.

 

[Mael]

What's really stupid is that we're getting Super Metroid and Kirby's Adventure in 50 Hz only because they've been translated into German and French, but both games didn't really need any translation to be playable.

Also, both translations leave something to be desired.
For example, Kirby's Adventure came out at a time when Nintendo Germany would make up their own names for characters if they felt like it. That's why King Dedede is called "König Nickerchen" (King Little Nap) in the German NES version, although they use his real name in later games and Smash Bros. Brawl.

And I already mentioned the shoddy Super Metroid translation.

In other words, those two games, which really didn't need any translation at all to be playable, are being released in 50 Hz just to give us those bad, old translations nobody asked for.

Kirby Adventure is fully in French with a not shite translation to begin with.
And Super Metroid was competently made, nothing special considering the limitations.
I guess that's why we're not so loud about it.

 

[Robin64]

Not sure how the Wii mode's 50hz works. Will have to play around there.

 

[Foshy]

I made a little image to better picture what's going on with optimised PAL games, both then and now. It's slightly more technical than this, but this is the basic gist.

In the top row we see the original American release, displaying frames 1 to 20 perfectly.

The second row shows the original PAL SNES release. To get it matching the same speed, they just drop every 5th frame. It's not really all that noticable because the raw output of the SNES is 50hz. There's nothing to account for. It looks okay and plays okay.

The third row is what happens when we take an optimised 50hz game and play it on the Wii U. Because the Wii U can only output at 60hz, this means a 50hz source has to repeat a frame every so often. But because the optimisation already dropped a frame, and now we're repeating one to make up for the hz difference between source and output, we get the effect people are calling "janky". I love the term to describe it.

You can see, the 4th frame is now displayed twice, then the next frame is America's frame 6. If we had the US ROM, we'd just go 4 -> 5 -> 6, but the U "breaks" these optimised games and we're forced to live with 4 -> 4 -> 6. Even without playing, you can imagine this is not ideal..

So there's like some micro-stutter going on every five frames? ew. I'd rather take normal 50 Hz over that.