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Nintendo DMCAs Project AM2R and 562 smaller fangames

CoryCubed

Member
Jun 7, 2004
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Earth
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How do people support Nintendo on these things? You are basically calling us all idiots who can't distinguish what Nintendo makes from what fans make and play, and assuming we aren't going to buy Nintendo games because we play those fan games, or assuming we will expect features from the fan games in Nintendo games and vice versa, which is 100% false.

Neither have any effect on each other, and if someone is so stupid they can't distinguish or blur the lines, I bet they work a shitty job, if any, because of their stupidity and can't afford to buy the game anyway. Maybe it's simply I want to play more because it is impossible for Nintendo to make a new game every two weeks for me to play. It's so easy to play 20 fan games and still be out day one for the newest Pokemon, cash in hand.
 

DSix

Banned
Nov 10, 2011
3,933
0
0
I feel bad for defending Nintendo's action last time they did this. I thought they were somehow legally obliged to remove AM2R links. But this goes beyond any supposed legal obligation.
Sega never massively outlawed Sonic fangames and their legal copyright is still fine, so I see no good reasons for Nintendo to do such things to their community.

It's been already proven by their asinine youtube policies: They're just out of touch assholes.
 

Rogue Agent

Banned
Feb 19, 2013
4,103
0
475
Yorkshire, England, UK.
A slightly unrelated question: If you develop and sell an original game with your own assets, but use the same or very similar formulas of an existing IP (like damage formulas from an RPG game, etc.), would this be considered copyright infringement and therefore illegal?
 

udivision

Member
May 19, 2009
12,060
0
790
udivision.blogspot.com
A slightly unrelated question: If you develop and sell an original game with your own assets, but use the same or very similar formulas of an existing IP (like damage formulas from an RPG game, etc.), would this be considered copyright infringement and therefore illegal?

Considering how many games there are and the overlap of game systems, I don't think companies have exclusive rights stuff like that unless they specifically patent it.
 

Lynx_7

Member
Apr 27, 2013
2,955
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350
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Making a fan fiction using Harry Potter is not the same as rewriting Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets in a different font and giving it away for free.

Remaking Super Mario Bros in HD and giving it away for free is not the same as drawing a picture of mario and putting on your deviantart by any measure. Especially not by the law. There is a such thing as severity. One is actually much closer to fair use than the other. You wouldnt say manslaughter is the same thing as murder, would you?

You'd have a point if the only fangames Nintendo were cancelling were remakes, but that's not the case.

Let's forget AM2R for a second because, while I don't agree with their decision, I can definitely understand why Nintendo would want to shut down a direct remake of a game they still commercialize. But what's the difference between Pokemon Uranium and Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality? Or any other fanfiction for that matter? They're both derivative of a copyrighted source material while adding their own original ideas and not being "remakes" of said works (well, in a way I guess you could consider HPMOR a "remake" of HP, but that'd actually help my point).
Actually, there is a difference: one of them isn't being shut down by an overzealous company.
 

LordRaptor

Member
Aug 20, 2015
9,768
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520
Considering how many games there are and the overlap of game systems, I don't think companies have exclusive rights stuff like that unless they specifically patent it.

Even in cases where a mechanic is patented, 'ideas' can't be patented, only specific implementations; so even though Sega own the 'swooping camera' transitions used in Virtua Racing, plenty of other racing games let you change views, they just can't use the same camera transition.

e:
But what's the difference

Games not directly using copyrighted assets can't be DMCAed.
Don't use someone elses artwork is should be pretty easy to understand.

e2:
You brought Federation Force up. I was responding to your point about Federation Force. You denied making that point, and even after I showed you your own quote of you making that point, you're still blaming me for the fact that we're talking about Federation Force.

Holy shit dude, talk about seeing what you want to see - wtf. Look at that quote again.
 

Nerrel

Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,631
0
0
$40 is the standard price for a 3DS game.
Maybe you should let Federation Force go. You seem obsessed with it.

This is either trolling or willful ignorance, but either way the entertainment value is keeping me in this. You brought Federation Force up. I was responding to your point about Federation Force. You denied making that point, and even after I showed you your own quote of you making that point, you're still blaming me for the fact that we're talking about Federation Force. If you don't want to talk about FF...stop talking about it. That would go a long way toward not having to hear about FF.

I already addressed your other point. $40 is the standard price for a full 3DS game. AM2R, if it were released on the eshop, would not be a full $40 3DS game. It's equivalent to indie titles like Cave Story, Axiom Verge, and all the other games largely developed by a single individual, which are almost always digital titles that sell for around $15. That's just the way it is. That's how small developers share their work with the world. This wasn't a first party game with a team of professionals working on it. It was an indie sidescroller, and they're not boxed, full priced games.

Even if it were a boxed $40 game, yeah, it would still probably have sold better just on the virtue of the fact that fans actually want to play this. And If you don't want to accept that... like I said, a fully new sidescroller that actually was a $40 first party release would also handily sell better. At least 10x better, if historical precedent is any indication. You invited this argument about sales, but you're not acknowledging any of this. Do you have a response to contradict the things I'm saying? Is there a reason a $40 Metroid sidescroller wouldn't sell?

Point being that there's an audience out there that wants Metroid games and Nintendo isn't satisfying them at all. Nintendo hasn't been listening to them at all, even in the wake of major commercial failures. That's bad for a company to do. Not just for the fans, but for the company itself and the health of its IP.

If you want to talk about AM2R using Nintendo assets, it's supposed to feel like a lost third GBA title. It had the goal of being a companion to Zero Mission and Fusion, and in that sense, it makes sense to match the look and feel of those games. Could he have done absolutely ever sprite from scratch? Yes, but that would have caused an already painfully long 8 year development to take even longer. Being able to play with these assets is part of what makes projects like this practical to create. He wasn't selling this game or making any money off of it. Just the opposite; I'm sure he invested a good deal of his own cash in order to make it. And if he hadn't done this, the game wouldn't exist. Nintendo wasn't doing a Metroid II remake. Is it wrong for fans to try to deliver their own dream-games when the company that owns the property will not? Again, this was not someone looking to make money and build a career out of someone else's intellectual property.

Nintendo aren't exactly saints when it comes to respecting other people's property. They monetize fair use youtube videos that they have no business to monetize. They're a company that maximizes control over their content to an authoritarian degree, sometimes to the point of going beyond the limits of what they have the right to even do. I love Nintendo, but this is a very ugly side of the company.


Do you believe it is okay to rip large amounts of someone else's work, then make money off said work without the original creator's permission/license by creating a product directly competing with the creator's main form of business?

Not talking about AM2R here, because as far as I know, that fangame was not monetized.

If it's monetized, of course it's wrong. But when a fan is just putting their own project together for the fun of it, and when it's bringing excitement to a community that hasn't had anything to be excited about in a decade, coldly and impersonally bringing down the hammer probably isn't the best way to proceed.

Capcom shut down a RE2 remake after politely asking their fans about what they wanted to happen (which I think was widely misinterpreted as Capcom asking if they should remake RE2 themselves), and when the project was shut down they flew those developers to their studio to show them the real REmake 2 and to listen to their opinions and input on the game. That's... pretty nice of Capcom to have done, and they weren't even close to being the same kind of deep shit with their fanbase Nintendo is with Metroid now.

Nintendo could have been a lot more gentle. They could have at least posted a youtube vid of Reggie doing his PR speak to the fans to explain why this had to be done. Anything. Anything that showed that they understood that the fans were very unhappy with their handling of the series- that this was the 30th anniversary of said series- and that fans were really looking forward to this game in the hopes of finally feeling good about Metroid for the first time in a long while.
 

Zunnoab

Neo Member
May 8, 2011
25
0
450
Milwaukee area, Wisconsin, USA
I have read all these replies and I'm surprised it didn't come up how Nintendo seems to be using the DMCA rather than a cease and desist letter, unless I somehow missed that. I still see people erroneously cite a cease and desist letter too, unless one of those popped up recently that I missed. It's like they have so little respect for this fan tribute they won't even bother communicating with its creator and instead send DMCA take-downs. Is a DMCA take-down request directed at an email address a typical thing even?

Let's shoot down the myth that it would be unprecedented. It was odd seeing people try to wriggle out of that argument by bashing the subjective quality of Sonic or whether Valve makes games anymore. Those are only two examples though. I've seen worth of the IP come up but let's shoot that one down right away because Morrowind and The Elder Scrolls series are very relevant IPs and Bethesda is allowing Skywind to continue development. Before any exaggerated claims come up about the series' bugs or subjective rants bout filler content and such, the value of the IP is objectively very important to ZeniMax/Bethesda. The subjective opinions over the series are irrelevant to the argument, as they are for Metroid and Sonic and Valve's IPs for that matter.

I also would like to bring up Project99, an EverQuest fan server/game. This game outright uses the game's assets. EverQuest is still an active game, and Daybreak is a heck of a lot smaller company than Blizzard. This is relevant because Activision Blizzard lied that it had no choice but to shut down fan-run classic WoW servers. Take note that Daybreak opens special progression servers that start out at the beginning of the game and unlock further expansions over time. Even considering that, they still gave Project99 official blessing years after it operated in the background anticipating eventual legal action by Sony Online Entertainment (the part of Sony that spun off to form Daybreak). I emphasize Daybreak is so much smaller than Activision Blizzard because the EverQuest budget needs those active subscribers and expansion purchasers, which makes the fact Project99 got blessing even more noteworthy in shooting down Activision Blizzard's lie about the WoW fan servers it shut down. I say lie because reality directly contradicts the claim both Activision Blizzard and Nintendo have made about "having" to do this. If it's not a lie then they are embarrassingly out of touch with what their competition is doing.

The notion that it would be "unprecedented" for Nintendo to allow or adopt the project is just plain outright untrue in the face of Black Mesa, Street Fighter X Mega Man, and the recent Sonic releases. It remains to be seen how in the end Skywind will be implemented when it is completed likely a few years from now. Also, Square Enix officially released a fan overhaul of the original Deux Ex on Steam as well, yet another example of fan content getting official releases not being unprecedented. For that matter dating all the way back to the 1990s TNT and Plutonia were originally free Doom fan projects! My point with all these examples is to prove definitively that Nintendo working out some kind of deal for this game would not be unprecedented at all. People in the topic already did so, but I don't think it's been emphasized enough that all these examples cannot just be hand waved.

Okay I went on a long wall of text there, but in summary the point of that is to prove two things:
1.) The notion that Nintendo "had to" do this to protect its IP is point blank false, even ignoring fan works and fan cuts of films and such that have been ignored over the years.
2.) The notion that Nintendo embracing it would be unprecedented in the industry is also indisputably untrue.

Now as to why Nintendo has lost my support over this, it's not some "tantrum." See the thing that calling people entitled implies is that they have some sort of obligation to buy Nintendo products and that it's unreasonable to give feedback as to what products people want. That completely ignores the fact that Nintendo is a business selling products. No one owes Nintendo commitment to buy its machines or games. On the contrary, the responsibility is on Nintendo to convince people to buy Nintendo gaming machines and games. Sega has recently capitalized on this to inspire a wave of all kinds of loving chatter. Nintendo has done the opposite. That isn't the fans' fault for getting upset. It's Nintendo's fault for not managing its PR as well as Sega, Bethesda, Valve, Capcom, Microsoft, Daybreak, and probably others have.

Now I'll finally get to why this matters to me:
Now is a wonderful time to be a gamer. There are tons of games catering to all tastes spanning back the last few decades and even more wonderful games come out every year. This is subjective, but in my opinion it's not hard to find great gaming experiences. From my perspective, if Nintendo is treating its fans paying tribute to its games so consistently poorly I have no reason to support the company when I already have access to more games than I have time to realistically play on the PC alone and that is not even counting the legacy consoles I still have with tons of great games I never played.

In short: Nintendo needs its fans. I don't need Nintendo. The company has very nearly burned its last bridge with me. It may have every legal right to do what it has done. What it does not have a right to is immunity from comparison to its competition handling things like this way better. Sega and Capcom may have done differently in the past but they evolved. Nintendo has not.
 

Nerrel

Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,631
0
0
It may have every legal right to do what it has done. What it does not have a right to is immunity from comparison to its competition handling things like this way better. Sega and Capcom may have done differently in the past but they evolved. Nintendo has not.

Great post. Why people are not only accepting this behavior but vehemently defending it is beyond me.
 

Branduil

Member
Sep 20, 2006
64,603
2
0
Excellent Eriador
I have read all these replies and I'm surprised it didn't come up how Nintendo seems to be using the DMCA rather than a cease and desist letter, unless I somehow missed that. I still see people erroneously cite a cease and desist letter too, unless one of those popped up recently that I missed. It's like they have so little respect for this fan tribute they won't even bother communicating with its creator and instead send DMCA take-downs. Is a DMCA take-down request directed at an email address a typical thing even?

Let's shoot down the myth that it would be unprecedented. It was odd seeing people try to wriggle out of that argument by bashing the subjective quality of Sonic or whether Valve makes games anymore. Those are only two examples though. I've seen worth of the IP come up but let's shoot that one down right away because Morrowind and The Elder Scrolls series are very relevant IPs and Bethesda is allowing Skywind to continue development. Before any exaggerated claims come up about the series' bugs or subjective rants bout filler content and such, the value of the IP is objectively very important to ZeniMax/Bethesda. The subjective opinions over the series are irrelevant to the argument, as they are for Metroid and Sonic and Valve's IPs for that matter.

I also would like to bring up Project99, an EverQuest fan server/game. This game outright uses the game's assets. EverQuest is still an active game, and Daybreak is a heck of a lot smaller company than Blizzard. This is relevant because Activision Blizzard lied that it had no choice but to shut down fan-run classic WoW servers. Take note that Daybreak opens special progression servers that start out at the beginning of the game and unlock further expansions over time. Even considering that, they still gave Project99 official blessing years after it operated in the background anticipating eventual legal action by Sony Online Entertainment (the part of Sony that spun off to form Daybreak). I emphasize Daybreak is so much smaller than Activision Blizzard because the EverQuest budget needs those active subscribers and expansion purchasers, which makes the fact Project99 got blessing even more noteworthy in shooting down Activision Blizzard's lie about the WoW fan servers it shut down. I say lie because reality directly contradicts the claim both Activision Blizzard and Nintendo have made about "having" to do this. If it's not a lie then they are embarrassingly out of touch with what their competition is doing.

The notion that it would be "unprecedented" for Nintendo to allow or adopt the project is just plain outright untrue in the face of Black Mesa, Street Fighter X Mega Man, and the recent Sonic releases. It remains to be seen how in the end Skywind will be implemented when it is completed likely a few years from now. Also, Square Enix officially released a fan overhaul of the original Deux Ex on Steam as well, yet another example of fan content getting official releases not being unprecedented. For that matter dating all the way back to the 1990s TNT and Plutonia were originally free Doom fan projects! My point with all these examples is to prove definitively that Nintendo working out some kind of deal for this game would not be unprecedented at all. People in the topic already did so, but I don't think it's been emphasized enough that all these examples cannot just be hand waved.

Okay I went on a long wall of text there, but in summary the point of that is to prove two things:
1.) The notion that Nintendo "had to" do this to protect its IP is point blank false, even ignoring fan works and fan cuts of films and such that have been ignored over the years.
2.) The notion that Nintendo embracing it would be unprecedented in the industry is also indisputably untrue.

Now as to why Nintendo has lost my support over this, it's not some "tantrum." See the thing that calling people entitled implies is that they have some sort of obligation to buy Nintendo products and that it's unreasonable to give feedback as to what products people want. That completely ignores the fact that Nintendo is a business selling products. No one owes Nintendo commitment to buy its machines or games. On the contrary, the responsibility is on Nintendo to convince people to buy Nintendo gaming machines and games. Sega has recently capitalized on this to inspire a wave of all kinds of loving chatter. Nintendo has done the opposite. That isn't the fans' fault for getting upset. It's Nintendo's fault for not managing its PR as well as Sega, Bethesda, Valve, Capcom, Microsoft, Daybreak, and probably others have.

Now I'll finally get to why this matters to me:
Now is a wonderful time to be a gamer. There are tons of games catering to all tastes spanning back the last few decades and even more wonderful games come out every year. This is subjective, but in my opinion it's not hard to find great gaming experiences. From my perspective, if Nintendo is treating its fans paying tribute to its games so consistently poorly I have no reason to support the company when I already have access to more games than I have time to realistically play on the PC alone and that is not even counting the legacy consoles I still have with tons of great games I never played.

In short: Nintendo needs its fans. I don't need Nintendo. The company has very nearly burned its last bridge with me. It may have every legal right to do what it has done. What it does not have a right to is immunity from comparison to its competition handling things like this way better. Sega and Capcom may have done differently in the past but they evolved. Nintendo has not.

Good post. Nintendo really needs to learn about fan outreach from other companies, but given how historically poor they've been at this as well as notoriously culturally conservative, I'm not holding my breath.
 

Lynx_7

Member
Apr 27, 2013
2,955
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350
Brazil
Games not directly using copyrighted assets can't be DMCAed.
Don't use someone elses artwork is should be pretty easy to understand.

Chrono Resurrection would disagree with your first claim, though to be fair they were apparently going to monetize said project so I can't really blame Square for doing what they did
(though I'm still salty they haven't done shit with the franchise ever since)
.

Can you give me any legal basis as to why using characters, plotlines, locations and the ideas/concepts of a work in a free fanwork is ok but using assets of a game to make a free fangame is not? If you can then I'll drop the argument. I'd imagine both are illegal, but you don't see many companies going after fanfiction writers, fan artists or even online fanzines or fan movies. It's only when talking about fangames that it becomes ok to defend this sort of practice.
 

Nerrel

Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,631
0
0
Holy shit dude, talk about seeing what you want to see - wtf. Look at that quote again.
You chose a boxed $40 3DS game as your frame of comparison for an AM2R release, rather than a digital $15 eshop release which is certainly the appropriate format for an indie game. That was inviting the comparison to Federation Force. That's why all of the posts afterward went there:

In answer to your sales question: it would handily outsell Federation Force by 10x easily, and thats a pessimistic estimate.
You have literally no basis to assert that as a fact.
Any "X would definitely sell Y because I like Z" statements are inherently make-believe wishful thinking.
Looking at week 1 sales of FF in one single territory and then extrapolating that out to hypothetical worldwide sales of a completely different product is, well, I don't know how to say idiotic in a less confrontational or insulting way.
A much larger number of people than those who bought Federation Force for 40 dollars.
you have no idea what a hypothetical title today would or would not sell.

If you weren't trying to make a point about AM2R being unable to sell any better than FF, then why did you keep arguing that very thing afterward, and why did you choose a $40 3DS title for your hypothetical argument to begin with? I was left with no other clear way to read your argument.

Whatever the case is, you were implying one way or another that the people playing AM2R wouldn't be willing to buy it if it were a legitimate release, and that should clearly not be the case. The precedent of Nintendo's own similarly styled Metroid games on the GBA and current indie games make it clear that AM2R has an audience that will pay for games like this, and even if it's not massive, it's far bigger than the one for the actual Metroid game they just released.
 

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,276
7,725
1,070
Now as to why Nintendo has lost my support over this, it's not some "tantrum." See the thing that calling people entitled implies is that they have some sort of obligation to buy Nintendo products and that it's unreasonable to give feedback as to what products people want. That completely ignores the fact that Nintendo is a business selling products. No one owes Nintendo commitment to buy its machines or games. On the contrary, the responsibility is on Nintendo to convince people to buy Nintendo gaming machines and games. Sega has recently capitalized on this to inspire a wave of all kinds of loving chatter. Nintendo has done the opposite. That isn't the fans' fault for getting upset. It's Nintendo's fault for not managing its PR as well as Sega, Bethesda, Valve, Capcom, Microsoft, Daybreak, and probably others have.

Now I'll finally get to why this matters to me:
Now is a wonderful time to be a gamer. There are tons of games catering to all tastes spanning back the last few decades and even more wonderful games come out every year. This is subjective, but in my opinion it's not hard to find great gaming experiences. From my perspective, if Nintendo is treating its fans paying tribute to its games so consistently poorly I have no reason to support the company when I already have access to more games than I have time to realistically play on the PC alone and that is not even counting the legacy consoles I still have with tons of great games I never played.

In short: Nintendo needs its fans. I don't need Nintendo. The company has very nearly burned its last bridge with me. It may have every legal right to do what it has done. What it does not have a right to is immunity from comparison to its competition handling things like this way better. Sega and Capcom may have done differently in the past but they evolved. Nintendo has not.
Thank you.
 

LordRaptor

Member
Aug 20, 2015
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520
Can you give me any legal basis as to why using characters, plotlines, locations and the ideas/concepts of a work in a free fanwork is ok but using assets of a game to make a free fangame is not?

...are you actually asking what the difference between broad concepts and actual work product is?

A photographer owns the rights to a photograph they have taken.
Even if it is a photograph of, say, a mountain. A mountain that the photographer does not own.

An artist owns the rights to a picture they have drawn. Even if the picture they have drawn is of a trademarked character - like Batman or Mario.

e:

Holy fucking shit dude, I am saying that nobody knows what AM2R would sell if it was an officially licenced product and you and others seem to want to keep bringing FF into it.

you are actually coming across like a goddamn crazy ass zealot right now, so please stop quoting me.

FFs sales are irrelevant to this topic. I don't give a shit about FFs sales. Stop going on about fucking FF. It killed your dog or whatever. Okay.
 

Fluxdyne

Member
Sep 8, 2010
300
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Chrono Resurrection would disagree with your first claim, though to be fair they were apparently going to monetize said project so I can't really blame Square for doing what they did
(though I'm still salty they haven't done shit with the franchise ever since)
.
I don't think they were going to monetize it, as far as I remember it was going to be distributed for free.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Dec 14, 2013
26,816
1
570
...are you actually asking what the difference between broad concepts and actual work product is?

A photographer owns the rights to a photograph they have taken.
Even if it is a photograph of, say, a mountain. A mountain that the photographer does not own.

An artist owns the rights to a picture they have drawn. Even if the picture they have drawn is of a trademarked character - like Batman or Mario.

e:


Holy fucking shit dude, I am saying that nobody knows what AM2R would sell if it was an officially licenced product and you and others seem to want to keep bringing FF into it.

you are actually coming across like a goddamn crazy ass zealot right now, so please stop quoting me.

FFs sales are irrelevant to this topic. I don't give a shit about FFs sales. Stop going on about fucking FF. It killed your dog or whatever. Okay.

FF sales are very relevant though. If they can greenlight a dumb spin-off that no one wants, surely they can greenlight a far superior game that actually caters to Metroid gans.
 

Lynx_7

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Apr 27, 2013
2,955
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350
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...are you actually asking what the difference between broad concepts and actual work product is?

Robocop, Mickey, Harry Potter, Batman and Mario are not broad concepts, they're characters protected under copyright law.

I don't think they were going to monetize it, as far as I remember it was going to be distributed for free.

I remember reading somewhere that it was going to be sold but it's been a looooong time so I could be wrong.
 

LordRaptor

Member
Aug 20, 2015
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520
Robocop, Mickey, Harry Potter, Batman and Mario are not broad concepts, they're characters protected under copyright law.

Do you see the difference between you drawing and writing a Batman comic, and you photocopying a Denny O'Neill issue of Batman?

Becuase one is a C&D if WB can be bothered, one is a DMCA takedown for using other peoples work
 

Nerrel

Member
Oct 13, 2014
1,631
0
0
Holy fucking shit dude, I am saying that nobody knows what AM2R would sell if it was an officially licenced product and you and others seem to want to keep bringing FF into it.

you are actually coming across like a goddamn crazy ass zealot right now, so please stop quoting me.

FFs sales are irrelevant to this topic. I don't give a shit about FFs sales. Stop going on about fucking FF. It killed your dog or whatever. Okay.

They're completely relevant in a discussion about what a practical product that people would want to buy is. Federation Force is the current state of health for Nintendo's own releases in the series, and if your point was that AM2R's sales wouldn't be guaranteed if it were an actual product, the fact that people like the game much better and have been asking for such a game for so long makes it very clear a game like AM2R- or a polished port of AM2R itself- would be a much healthier path for the series than the one Nintendo has chosen. That's why FF is appropriate to bring up. It's the absolute worst case scenario for the series, and almost any other path is inherently less risky. That kind of undermines your argument about the doubt of AM2R being a viable product.

It's also relevant just in terms of the general health of the series and the current context this DCMA notice was issued in. If you don't want to talk about FF, don't. You don't have to respond to these posts about the game (which aren't just coming from me). For someone who doesn't give a shit, you're certainly getting pretty riled up about it.
 

Mysterious

Banned
Oct 18, 2012
7,315
0
0
What's their problem with fangames anyway? I'm totally aware it's their right to get these fangames removed but... why?

As somebody who loves modding and appreciates people dedicated enough to pull through and do game conversions or whatever, this just makes me lose the little respect I had left for them.

You lose the right to your IP if you don't actively protect it.
 

LordRaptor

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Aug 20, 2015
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They're completely relevant in a discussion about what a practical product that people would want to buy is.
...
That's why FF is appropriate to bring up.
...
If you don't want to talk about FF, don't.

You brought Federation Force up. I was responding to your point about Federation Force. You denied making that point, and even after I showed you your own quote of you making that point, you're still blaming me for the fact that we're talking about Federation Force. If you don't want to talk about FF...stop talking about it. That would go a long way toward not having to hear about FF.



.
 

KingBroly

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Mar 18, 2015
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Lynx_7

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Do you see the difference between you drawing and writing a Batman comic, and you photocopying a Denny O'Neill issue of Batman?

Becuase one is a C&D if WB can be bothered, one is a DMCA takedown for using other peoples work

The second one wouldn't be much of a fanwork, just a straight up reproduction.

I'm not really arguing the difference between a DMCA takedown and a C&D because the end result is the same, which is said fan work being taken down. At any case, 8-bit theater uses character assets from Final Fantasy I to tell a parody of said game's story. Would you think it reasonable if Square-Enix issued a DMCA take down? I'm not arguing they aren't within their rights to do so, but it certainly seems like a waste of time and effort that could be better spent not antagonizing your fans.
 

EatinOlives

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Oct 23, 2011
16,849
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What's their problem with fangames anyway? I'm totally aware it's their right to get these fangames removed but... why?

As somebody who loves modding and appreciates people dedicated enough to pull through and do game conversions or whatever, this just makes me lose the little respect I had left for them.

They probably don't want any of these games to get "confused" with their own games. Some of the fan games are of extremely high quality.

But as far as fans are concerned, Nintendo's been treating its fans like garbage lately. All they do right now is announce amiibos, cancel fan games, and starve their fans of anything to look forward to as they continue to drag their feet on anything NX related for a bafflingly long time. It's a pretty dire time to be a Ninty fan right now. They better knock it out of the park with the NX reveal because right now they're not giving anyone a reason to keep up with them.
 

Zunnoab

Neo Member
May 8, 2011
25
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Except you still have to buy games to do that. Big difference. AM2R isn't buying a game. It's (was) free and not on a platform Nintendo supports. You also seem to forget all of the illegal mods out there for licensed games on that very service that Sega has to curate so they don't get sued over it for allowing illegal use of somebody else's IP.
That was already covered several times, but in case you do not know Sega has not only allowed fan Sonic games to exist but it has hired someone that made a fan port to officially port it to mobile platforms

I went out and searched for a direct description of the situation because I didn't know the details. Well, here you go.
The Taxman is a longtime Sonic scener and creator of the famous Retro Sonic fangame, which exhibits a very accurate representation of the classic Sonic engine on the x86 platform. He also created a page documenting the Sonic CD 510 Beta.

He is now working on Retro Sonic Nexus with Sir Euan, a merger of three previous fan games, Sonic XG, Retro Sonic and Sonic Nexus.

In July 2009, he contacted Sega with plans to re-release Sonic CD for the iPhone. This lead to The Taxman being brought on board to create a new version of said game alongside Sega. Instead of being a port of the original ROM, it was re-created, true to the original game from scratch using his Retro Engine. This allowed for an array of personal control and adjustments for the game, provide a full 60fps frame-rate, and provide an aspect ratio to match the Apple device. The idea became a reality in December, 2011, with the release of the new Sonic CD. The new game is available on PSN, XBox Live, Steam, the Apple Store, and also as an Android app. Since then he has also worked on and released Sonic the Hedgehog (2013 game) and Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (2013) for Android and iOS.

He's also on the team making Sonic Mania. As I said whether Nintendo is looked on favorably for what it has done is subjective, but what is objective is that they did not have to and it is not unprecedented for fan projects to be adopted. This has also happened with Street Fighter X Mega Man and Black Mesa, and the Deus Ex: Revision. Also, for an official game hack (which I've bafflingly seen people call illegal in this topic) see the Skyrim Script Extender which is on Steam.
 
Sep 19, 2015
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In short: Nintendo needs its fans. I don't need Nintendo. The company has very nearly burned its last bridge with me. It may have every legal right to do what it has done. What it does not have a right to is immunity from comparison to its competition handling things like this way better. Sega and Capcom may have done differently in the past but they evolved. Nintendo has not.

Nintendo doesn't have a right to an immunity from comparison to competition, but people need to realize that just because one mentions said comparisons, doesn't mean that Nintendo should be forced to do what other companies do. It's fallacious to assume that they should change because of what other companies are doing. Everyone has a different way of dealing with IP rights, some are more liberal, some are more conservative, some are harsh and do not want anyone to so much as touch their IP. Also, I find some of the revisionist history hilarious with regards to Capcom supporting fan games. When Capcom supported SFxMM, everyone was crapping at them for being lazy and supporting a fan game instead of making a new Mega Man game for the anniversary at the time. Maybe it's just me, but I laugh any time Capcom is included as being fan-friendly considering what they've done to their franchises. SEGA does deserve the title though considering they've made changes to their mindset and now base their business on including fans.
 

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,276
7,725
1,070
Nintendo doesn't have a right to an immunity from comparison to competition, but people need to realize that just because one mentions said comparisons, doesn't mean that Nintendo should be forced to do what other companies do. It's fallacious to assume that they should change because of what other companies are doing. Everyone has a different way of dealing with IP rights, some are more liberal, some are more conservative, some are harsh and do not want anyone to so much as touch their IP. Also, I find some of the revisionist history hilarious with regards to Capcom supporting fan games. When Capcom supported SFxMM, everyone was crapping at them for being lazy and supporting a fan game instead of making a new Mega Man game for the anniversary at the time. Maybe it's just me, but I laugh any time Capcom is included as being fan-friendly considering what they've done to their franchises. SEGA does deserve the title though considering they've made changes to their mindset and now base their business on including fans.
Nobody is forced to do anything.

We are just saying that, the way they handle things don't seem optimal. In fact, i would say they handle things badly. And in the end it's them who will pay the price, not us.
 

Instro

Member
Jan 14, 2009
24,476
1
705
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Nintendo doesn't have a right to an immunity from comparison to competition, but people need to realize that just because one mentions said comparisons, doesn't mean that Nintendo should be forced to do what other companies do. It's fallacious to assume that they should change because of what other companies are doing. Everyone has a different way of dealing with IP rights, some are more liberal, some are more conservative, some are harsh and do not want anyone to so much as touch their IP. Also, I find some of the revisionist history hilarious with regards to Capcom supporting fan games. When Capcom supported SFxMM, everyone was crapping at them for being lazy and supporting a fan game instead of making a new Mega Man game for the anniversary at the time. Maybe it's just me, but I laugh any time Capcom is included as being fan-friendly considering what they've done to their franchises. SEGA does deserve the title though considering they've made changes to their mindset and now base their business on including fans.

Well yes they can't be forced to do anything, but of course Nintendo being behind the curve on just about everything is why they are in their current situation.
 
Nov 18, 2013
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Goddamnit, Nintendo.

IF they had to take those games off the internet, there's better/more profitable ways to do this. All 500 could probably be bought entire from their creators for less than 100K, and AM2R repackaged and resold would more then recoup the cost, besides whatever other gems were in there. Any creators that held out and refused to sell could then be DMCA'd like this. Offering an olive branch first makes all the difference.
 

Wanderer5

Member
Aug 31, 2014
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Pretty indifferent for the most part honestly, but it is nice when someone like SEGA has even reached out to some of these people.

There this user on Tomb Raider Forums that has been working on a UE4 remake of Tomb Raider 2 and he got a blessing from the senior community manager at Crystal Dynamics (no monetizing and such course)!
 

Team Filler

Member
Sep 1, 2011
4,883
1
680
<snip>

In short: Nintendo needs its fans. I don't need Nintendo. The company has very nearly burned its last bridge with me. It may have every legal right to do what it has done. What it does not have a right to is immunity from comparison to its competition handling things like this way better. Sega and Capcom may have done differently in the past but they evolved. Nintendo has not.

This is a really good post and really echoes a lot of my thinking about Nintendo's actions on this matter. The ratio of games I want to play against time available to the play them is already so lopsided these days, and shit-ass actions like this make me question my continuing to support the company in any fashion.
 

BlazeHedgehog

Member
Sep 11, 2007
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You lose the right to your IP if you don't actively protect it.

Tell that to iD Software, Valve, Sega, Microsoft, CBS and Paramount. There is zero precedent to anyone "losing their IP" over this kind of thing.

At worst, pirated/bootleg games may cause a loss of sales, and if things get bad enough there may be some brand confusion that would cause IP dispute problems (and that's literally never happened before). But that's from groups who are trying to be legitimately deceitful on purpose because they're trying to scam people out of their money. Those people are criminals who are engaging in criminal activity.

As long as there is a clear dividing line between official and unofficial, between "professional" and "fandom," then there is absolutely nothing for anyone to worry about, and there is a long history of precedent for this being a good thing for a franchise overall.

What fans are doing is not piracy.