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[LordRaptor]

Isn't that what analysts do all the time?

Its also what Publishers do.
Nintendo looked at the market, they looked at sales figures of traditional Metrodi games. They probably looked at sales of Castlevania games (you know, the franchise that was once a 2D sprite based exploration / combat series, and is now poor mans God Of War).

They greenlit a low-budget Destiny-lite.
I don't know if that was instead of a traditional Metroid.
I don't know if that was instead of a Metroid Prime.

Nobody knows.
So getting super pissed off about what was made instead of what wasn't is crazy.
It's not how these things work.

It's also not what the topic is about.

We actually have though. It would handily outsell Federation. Thats not even worthy of debating.

Okay, and what would the 562 other games fom the topic sell?

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

You're not supposed to be doing it. Thats the whole point. It HAS to be kept secret because theyre illegal.

But then this entire website is also illegal: http://www.fanfiction.net/

And a good 60-70% of this website is also illegal: http://www.deviantart.com/

People have this attachment that fangames are tantamount to piracy. That they are bootlegs, and bootlegs are illegal, and that means of course it's okay to shut them down, they have to be this secret underground thing that nobody should talk about because it's contraband

That's absurd on almost every single possible level once you change your perspective and realize this is just another category of harmless fan-whatever, created by passionate fans paying tribute to the company and the franchises they love and hold so dearly to their hearts.

Does fan art take away from the sales of comic books?

Does fan fiction take away from the sales of novels?

Yes, okay, granted: AM2R is a remake of an existing Nintendo product. No part of me was surprised when the takedown rolled in. The instant that game went live I downloaded it because I knew the clock was ticking. AM2R is like if somebody re-wrote Harry Potter to be the same book using different words and released it for free (except that's been done too, whoops)

But the idea that fangames as an entire concept are evil and bad and must be traded in secret or get crushed in to oblivion is absolutely, unquestionably incorrect.

 

[Toxi]

Okay, and what would the 562 other games fom the topic sell?

Who cares, it's AM2R I give a shit about.

 

[DedValve]

People still buy and play Resident Evil Director's Cut even though REmake is a thing that exists. Remakes never fully eliminate the appreciation for the original project, and in many cases they revitalize interest in it.

Original RE is still very much playable. A lot of the core mechanics have remained mostly unchanged from RE to REmake and there were very few QOL improvements in terms of mechanics that hinder playing between the two.

It really comes down to graphics and availability and RE is both widely available on multiple systems so then your just left with graphics which, lets be fair has aged a hell of lot better than Metroid 2.

Metroid 2 doesn't have nearly as much going for it which is why I've always thought it was silly that AM2R as competition as very few people would have ever bought Metroid 2, even less people who have never played it.

Now federation yeah maybe but that game wasn't really grabbing many Metroid fans anyways so its focus was always more towards people newer to the franchise.


Either way I have this game so now I must wait until I get a PC to play it (mac user )

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I found a game called Pokemon Fire Red and honestly I can't argue about that one.

 

[Kyzer]

But then this entire website is also illegal: http://www.fanfiction.net/

And a good 60-70% of this website is also illegal: http://www.deviantart.com/

People have this attachment that fangames are tantamount to piracy. That they are bootlegs, and bootlegs are illegal, and that means of course it's okay to shut them down, they have to be this secret underground thing that nobody should talk about because it's contraband

That's absurd on almost every single possible level once you change your perspective and realize this is just another category of harmless fan-whatever, created by passionate fans paying tribute to the company and the franchises they love and hold so dearly to their hearts.

Does fan art take away from the sales of comic books?

Does fan fiction take away from the sales of novels?

Yes, okay, granted: AM2R is a remake of an existing Nintendo product. No part of me was surprised when the takedown rolled in. The instant that game went live I downloaded it because I knew the clock was ticking. AM2R is like if somebody re-wrote Harry Potter to be the same book using different words and released it for free (except that's been done too, whoops)

But the idea that fangames as an entire concept are evil and bad and must be traded in secret or get crushed in to oblivion is absolutely, unquestionably incorrect.

Holy shit dude its not the same

 

[MUnited83]

Its also what Publishers do.
Nintendo looked at the market, they looked at sales figures of traditional Metrodi games. They probably looked at sales of Castlevania games (you know, the franchise that was once a 2D sprite based exploration / combat series, and is now poor mans God Of War).

They greenlit a low-budget Destiny-lite.
I don't know if that was instead of a traditional Metroid.
I don't know if that was instead of a Metroid Prime.

Nobody knows.
So getting super pissed off about what was made instead of what wasn't is crazy.
It's not how these things work.

It's also not what the topic is about.



Okay, and what would the 562 other games fom the topic sell?

Thats... irrelevant? We were discussing AMR2 .

Holy shit dude its not the same

It is the same though.

 

[Krejlooc]

Holy shit dude its not the same

What a thoughtful rebuke.

 

[AndrewPL]

No, this just outlines how Nintendo is out of touch. Here you have a guy who spent 8 years making this game. Nintendo could've stepped in, sign a 50 000 to 100 000 bucks check to the guy who'd been happy with that. And Nintendo would have a brand new Metroid 2 remake to sell.
Mother 3 ? You had this fan translation made by a guy who worked as a pro in translation industry. The guy said "Please Nintendo, use my patch for free, localize and sell this game".
What did Nintendo ? "lol"

You don't understand the industry if you are seriously saying any of this.

 

[LordRaptor]

Who cares, it's AM2R I give a shit about.

That's the crux isn't it?

"Stolen assets are fine if I like what they're used in enough, or dislike who they were stolen from enough."

That's why laws aren't popularity contests.

 

[Metal B]

At any case, I don't know why so many people feel the need to argue about this anyway. Everybody knows Nintendo is within legal their legal rights to do whatever they want with their IPs, you don't need to preach it every single time a thread like this comes up. People are also within their rights to criticize said actions as out of touch when we have numerous examples of big companies embracing and even officializing fan works out there.

The problem are still those "Out of touch" comments. It is out of touch protecting your IP? Because their are still countless example, were this isn't the case through all media, were the creator's are not protected through fair-use.
The only examples a small, unknown and non-profit works. As soon as you go want money or become popular, you get in trouble.
Also their aren't numerous examples, where publisher supported a populuar fan-game based on there IP. Black Mesa would be one such game, but it's only available through Valve service. Which other big, popular fan-games (not new games developed by former fans) get that support?

"Out of touch" sound like not giving the fans, what they want. Even if it's harmful, expensive, time consuming, damaging or going against their philosophy. Fan make very bad producers and business experts ...

 

[MUnited83]

That's the crux isn't it?

"Stolen assets are fine if I like what they're used in enough, or dislike who they were stolen from enough."

That's why laws aren't popularity contests.

Well, in the case of copyright laws, they are more a matter of bribery and lobbying.


Mind, there are zero laws that say that Nintendo is required to shut those projects down.

 

[Toxi]

That's the crux isn't it?

"Stolen assets are fine if I like what they're used in enough, or dislike who they were stolen from enough."

That's why laws aren't popularity contests.

You do realize that it's possible to think Nintendo has a legal right to do this while also criticizing and mocking them for that decision?

"Out of touch" sound like not giving the fans, what they want. Even if it's harmful, expensive, time consuming, damaging or going against their philosophy. Fan make very bad producers and business experts ...

"Out of touch" sounds like making their worst selling home console ever.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Taking down AM2R might not have been the best move PR-wise, but actually legitimising it would probably be a mistake; it'd damage the public perception of Nintendo IP as a whole and set a dangerous precedent in terms of its unofficial use. They also have less than nothing to gain from hiring the main developer - they have a surplus of talented staff, hiring a foreigner with no applicable technical experience for the kinds of games they produce would probably not go too well, to say the least.

Nintendo's surplus of talented developers cranking out great Metroid games like Other M and Federation Force? Putting out such compelling libraries of exclusives that their current console is at 13 million sales after nearly five years? And that their portable, even with the help of decent Japanese third party support, has sold around half what its predecessor manged?

Give me a break. Nintendo's devs are mostly shuitting out sequel after sequel (or, worse, shitty spin offs) in the same handful franchises. Some great exceptions like Splatoon of course, but those have been few and far between. They're really only relevant anymore for their diehard fans that aren't tired of Mario, Zelda, MK, Smash, Animal Crossing, Pokemon et al. yet. They badly need new blood. They need more devs to try new things and new ip, as well as devs to develop games to cater to fan favorites like 2D Metroid.

I grew up on Nintendo. My gaming room has two shelves full of Amiibo and a Majora's Mask framed poster on the wall. I have a Wii u and 3DS. Yet Nintendo has a LOT of work to do to sell me on an NX. I could have EASILY lived without access to the Wii U and 3DS libraries. Just far too few games that didn't just feel like more of the same shit to me, and too lacking the type of more of the same shit that I really want like 2D Metroid, a real Metroid Prime, FZero etc.

Nothing of the little that's came out about the NX gives me much confidence that it won't just be another sequel filled library with a strong focus on kids/families/casuals and few bones thrown to their hardcore gamer fans that grew up with NES and SNES and want more things like Metroid, FZero, Earthbound and so on.

Grabbing some devs, even if just making fan games currently, who could help fill that void would be a step and the right direction and increase my interest in NX vs just telling them to pound sand and getting my Nintendo fix with their old games via emulators.

 

[LordRaptor]

Well, in the case of copyright laws, they are more a matter of bribery and lobbying.

Bullshit.

If Nintendo made a game using sprites, models, textures, sound effects, music, whatever that I had made and they did not have permission to use, I could rightfully C&D them, demand all references to my work is removed, force them to issue a recall, and be required to re-release the title in question after removing my copyrighted works or pay me whatever I want as a licence fee, no matter how astromonical or unreasonable a price I set, including "No I will never let you use my work".

 

[GamingOblivion]

Holy shit dude its not the same

wow im really impressed by the effort you took to refute his thoughtful post. Good job for convincing me to your side of the argument.

 

[Kyzer]

Thats... irrelevant? We were discussing AMR2 .

It is the same though.

What a thoughtful rebuke.

wow im really impressed by the effort you took to refute his thoughtful post. Good job for convincing me to your side of the argument.

if you dont see how likening fan art and avatars to a HD remake of metroid 2 is grasping at straws then the conversation is not worth having.

yes those can all be taken down too. you dont dedicate time and money to finding fan art and avatars and sending emails asking to take them down.

conversely, the decision to NOT do anything about a free hd remake of metroid 2 thats all over neogaf and kotaku is not that easy.

Do you guys really need me to explain the difference between drawing samus and putting on your deviantart, and recreating Metroid 2 and giving it away for free? And whats the point exactly? Are you seriously trying to convince me that either all these things should be taken down or none of them should be taken down?

 

[Krejlooc]

if you dont see how likening fan art and avatars to a HD remake of metroid 2 is grasping at straws then the conversation is not worth having.

yes those can all be taken down too. you dont dedicate time and money to finding fan art and avatars and sending emails asking to take them down.

conversely, the decision to NOT do anything about a free hd remake of metroid 2 thats all over neogaf and kotaku is not that easy.

Do you guys really need me to explain the difference between drawing samus and putting on your deviantart, and recreating Metroid 2 and giving it away for free?

Way to miss the point of that post.

 

[MUnited83]

Bullshit.

If Nintendo made a game using sprites, models, textures, sound effects, music, whatever that I had made and they did not have permission to use, I could rightfully C&D them, demand all references to my work is removed, force them to issue a recall, and be required to re-release the title in question after removing my copyrighted works or pay me whatever I want as a licence fee, no matter how astromonical or unreasonable a price I set, including "No I will never let you use my work".

Good luck with that, but wouldnt ever win against their team of lawyers and the millions of dollars they can spend on their defense.

if you dont see how likening fan art and avatars to a HD remake of metroid 2 is grasping at straws then the conversation is not worth having.

yes those can all be taken down too. you dont dedicate time and money to finding fan art and avatars and sending emails asking to take them down.

conversely, the decision to NOT do anything about a free hd remake of metroid 2 thats all over neogaf and kotaku is not that easy.

Do you guys really need me to explain the difference between drawing samus and putting on your deviantart, and recreating Metroid 2 and giving it away for free?

Sorry to tell you, but it is exactly the same. Making a fan game is the same as writing a Harry Potter fan fiction.

 

[Kyzer]

Way to miss the point of that post.

"wow what a thoughtful rebuke"

 

[GamingOblivion]

"wow what a thoughtful rebuke"

wow you love reducing yourself to a child's argument, dontcha?

Do it.

Likening A2MR to using an avatar is straight up laughable. So. lol

It's still copyright violation. Better lawyer up, kid.

 

[Kyzer]

Sorry to tell you, but it is exactly the same. Making a fan game is the same as writing a Harry Potter fan fiction.

It is literally not the same. Sorry. You are objectively, factually, incorrect.

wow you love reducing yourself to a child's argument, dontcha?



It's still copyright violation. Better lawyer up, kid.

Yeah, whats your point?

Do you have one?

You guys are seriously clinging to this avatar argument.

 

[GamingOblivion]

It is literally not the same. Sorry. You are objectively, factually, incorrect.

Do you think you can say more than "sorry, nah?" IN what way are they not the same? You have not provided a single rhetorical argument that says otherwise besides claims of being factually incorrect.

 

[Krejlooc]

"wow what a thoughtful rebuke"

Do you know what a rebuke is?

 

[zma1013]

It would be nice if they got out of their old business ways. For a company often noted for being starved of games, I'm wondering why they wouldn't collaborate and try to get AMR2 released officially for money or something.

 

[MUnited83]

It is literally not the same. Sorry. You are objectively, factually, incorrect.

The opposite. I'm literally 100% correct. Making a fan fiction using the characters and world of Harry Potter that was wrotten by JK Rowling is the same as making a fan game.

 

[Kyzer]

Do you think you can say more than "sorry, nah?" IN what way are they not the same? You have not provided a single rhetorical argument that says otherwise besides claims of being factually incorrect.

Nah, sorry.

Do you know what a rebuke is?

Oh my bad, it wasnt technically a rebuke.

and damn. Avatars are technically copyright infringement.

WOW YOU GUYS GOT ME

The opposite. I'm literally 100% correct. Making a fan fiction using the characters and world of Harry Potter that was wrotten by JK Rowling is the same as making a fan game.

Nope.

Making a fan fiction using Harry Potter is not the same as rewriting Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets in a different font and giving it away for free.

Remaking Super Mario Bros in HD and giving it away for free is not the same as drawing a picture of mario and putting on your deviantart by any measure. Especially not by the law. There is a such thing as severity. One is actually much closer to fair use than the other. You wouldnt say manslaughter is the same thing as murder, would you?

Not that it matters cuz this is a stupid argument anyways. One thing being wrong doesnt make another thing less wrong.

 

[IrishNinja]

damn, glad romhacking hasn't been hit

Disappointing, though expected. I wish Nintendo was as good with their fan-creators as SEGA.

ehh i love sega, but they weren't great about SOR remix (admittedly, it was around when SOR2 went to ios, i wanna say) and the shining force YT debacle a while back

How is Mother 4 still alive?

not many know about it, i wanna say?

They called it Mother 4 due to comments made by Itoi. So take it up with Itoi, lol.

yup, also this

 

[Krejlooc]

and the shining force YT debacle a while back

*4 years ago

**that got reversed

 

[GamingOblivion]

Nah, sorry.



Oh my bad, it wasnt technically a rebuke.

and damn. Avatars are technically copyright infringement.

WOW YOU GUYS GOT ME

alright, you've shown half a dozen times now that you have no desire to have an actual discussion about this. bye bye

 

[synce]

Another dick move by Nintendo but I'm sure everyone involved in those games expected it at some point

 

[GhostTrick]

You don't understand the industry if you are seriously saying any of this.

You're the one who doesn't if you're saying I'm not serious. Companies embracing fan enthusiasm and work ? It worked for SEGA, which led to them releasing Sonic CD, 1 and 2... And the upcoming Sonic Mania. It worked for Valve. It worked for Bethesda. It worked for so many games and publishers that it's not even funny.

Heck... It worked... For Nintendo. See Mario Maker. The truth is, instead of fighting against quality work: Embrace it, get the money and good word.

 

[Kyzer]

alright, you've shown half a dozen times now that you have no desire to have an actual discussion about this. bye bye

ok guy who randomly injected himself into the argument to tell me how I havent made any arguments and hasnt made any himself bye bye!

You're the one who doesn't if you're saying I'm not serious. Companies embracing fan enthusiasm and work ? It worked for SEGA, which led to them releasing Sonic CD, 1 and 2... And the upcoming Sonic Mania. It worked for Valve. It worked for Bethesda. It worked for so many games and publishers that it's not even funny.

I think people need to understand that this is not normal. The disconnect comes from people thinking the way they wish things should be is how they SHOULD be. I feel like all attempts to explain why this is unrealistic or unfeasible are met with disbelief, and that I must be a fanboy or corporate cheerleader to not think the same. Thats not normal..."Embracing fan enthusiasm" sounds nice but do you really think these companies should basically just all let copyright infringement slide because its cool for the fans?

 

[Frozy]

ok guy who randomly injected himself into the argument to tell me how I havent made any arguments and hasnt made any himself bye bye!

... How old are you?
I am serious.
Even if you have a real point to make, using such childish remarks will only make people not take you seriously.

 

[Krejlooc]

Making a fan fiction using Harry Potter is not the same as rewriting Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets in a different font and giving it away for free.

From the dude who said am2r was a romhack because he "didnt know file type."

Am I to guess that you have similar expertise in law that you have in development?

I think people need to understand that this is not normal.

It happens in literally every medium. From film to tv to music to art to literature to, yes, video games. Even among game makers, sega is hardly the exception. Microsoft grants a free limited license to all their characters for fan works. Valve too. Capcom does this as well. So did id back in the day.

In film, you have paramount who grants a limited license to fan works like star trek fan movies. In music, cover bands are a long tradition.

 

[GhostTrick]

ok guy who randomly injected himself into the argument to tell me how I havent made any arguments and hasnt made any himself bye bye!



I think people need to understand that this is not normal. The disconnect comes from people thinking the way they wish things should be is how they SHOULD be. I feel like all attempts to explain why this is unrealistic or unfeasible are met with disbelief, and that I must be a fanboy or corporate cheerleader to not think the same. Thats not normal..."Embracing fan enthusiasm" sounds nice but do you really think these companies should basically just all let copyright infringement slide because its cool for the fans?

Read my post again. I didn't said that. I said endorse these products and make something official out of it. Instead of making AM2R a free game, turn it into a commercial product. I'stead of keeping Mother 3's translation as a fan patch. Make it a commercial product.

Also, no, I didn't say let copyright infringement slide. But you also have to see what is harming you and what isn't

 

[Kyzer]

... How old are you?
I am serious.

25. Why, because I said bye bye? I was mocking him doing that to me... He said I havent made a single argument, called me "kid", said I love being a child and bye bye fuck that, he doesnt want to talk he wants to fight with me.

From the dude who said am2r was a romhack because he "didnt know file type."

Am I to guess that you have similar expertise in law that you have in development?

I didnt say it was a romhack.

What does game development expertise have to do with anything? I have a slight understanding of copyright infringement and fair use because I make music.

Also, whats your point?

 

[Krejlooc]

Also, whats your point?

That your arguments are generally very poor.

You do realize your reply to blaze hedgehog is to someone who has been making fan games for over a decade now, and was mentioned in egm for it, right?

 

[Kyzer]

That your arguments are generally very poor.

You do realize your reply to blaze hedgehog is to someone who has been making fan games for over a decade now, and was mentioned in egm for it, right?

Oh my arguments are very poor. Okay lol. I dont know what to say. Thanks for letting me know.

And no, I didn't. So what?

 

[udivision]

Reading this thread, I feel like I have less of a dog in this fight than most of you, and I just had 3 games DMCA'd yesterday.

You guys are intense!

 

[Mory Dunz]

Reading this thread, I feel like I have less of a dog in this fight than most of you, and I just had 3 games DMCA'd yesterday.

You guys are intense!

NO NO you don't understand, What do you EVEN KNOW?

 

[IrishNinja]

*4 years ago

**that got reversed

true, true
wasn't a good look though! all the videos got put back up, yeah? i guess it's just the SOR knock then, they're pretty good about this kinda thing overall it seems

Spoiler

inclined to fuss about how sony had to drag them kicking & screaming back to shenmue & localizing yakuza games but i guess that's neither here nor there

 

[nkarafo]

Nintendo is just butthurt that someone else made a better Metroid game than they did.

That's why after that they attacked more projects in case something of higher quality pops up and embarrasses them again.

Personally, i will support AMR2 by sharing the word of how much better it is compared to the most recent Nintendo efforts.

 

[Kyzer]

Read my post again. I didn't said that. I said endorse these products and make something official out of it. Instead of making AM2R a free game, turn it into a commercial product. I'stead of keeping Mother 3's translation as a fan patch. Make it a commercial product.

Also, no, I didn't say let copyright infringement slide. But you also have to see what is harming you and what isn't

Yeah I think that's what we're all disagreeing about lol. My whole argument is that letting these things live is not really harmless, and just because its a win-win for fans doesn't mean its just this common sense decision to let it go or support/hire the guy. We dont even know how they come to these decisions, and what we do know about the law makes sense. I think the idea that its harmless and should have been let go woulda been cool but that to think thats the only right answer, or that people like me who are looking at how DAMN illegal this is must be fanboys, is ridiculous. And since its fulled by a biased emotional support for something they want, its also a little ironic to call people fanboys for not being emotionally invested in this thing.

 

[RealityCheque]

Nintendo is just butthurt that someone else made a better Metroid game than they did.

That's why after that they attacked more projects in case something of higher quality pops up and embarrasses them again.

Personally, i will support AMR2 by sharing the word of how much better it is compared to the most recent Nintendo efforts.

Fair point. I've helped three people play it today so far. It's a really good game that deserves all the attention it's getting.

 

[Kyzer]

Yeah thats true, Nintendo is never even really gonna be able to take this off the internet lol

At least theres that.

 

[RealityCheque]

Yeah I think that's what we're all disagreeing about lol. My whole argument is that letting these things live is not really harmless, and just because its a win-win for fans doesn't mean its just this common sense decision to let it go or support/hire the guy. We dont even know how they come to these decisions, and what we do know about the law makes sense. I think the idea that its harmless and should have been let go woulda been cool but that to think thats the only right answer, or that people like me who are looking at how DAMN illegal this is must be fanboys, is ridiculous. And since its fulled by a biased emotional support for something they want, its also a little ironic to call people fanboys for not being emotionally invested in this thing.

Have you played it? And if you have, do you think Nintendo would've made it instead?

Honestly, that game fills a niche that would never have been occupied in any official way.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

It is literally not the same. Sorry. You are objectively, factually, incorrect.

That's a big claim for something it'd very hard to be objectively factually correct or incorrect on.

You can of course give a good reply explaining how they're in fact not the same then? Because if you want anyone to believe that, you need to do a better job of the quite good argument up there that they are the same as those examples in other media...

 

[Kyzer]

Have you played it? And if you have, do you think Nintendo would've made it instead?

Honestly, that game fills a niche that would never have been occupied in any official way.

I havent

I would like to, I'll get around to it eventually. I know it sounds super uptight but I really do want to at least buy the original first. Never played M2 before.

That's a big claim for something it'd very hard to be objectively factually correct or incorrect on.

You can of course give a good reply explaining how they're in fact not the same then? Because if you want anyone to believe that, you need to do a better job of the quite good argument up there that they are the same as those examples in other media...

Its not the same because theyre differing degrees of severity. Both are copyright infringement once they pass the threshold of private use. One is literally completely harmless (generally...) original work using copyrighted materials, the other is a recreation of an entire commercial product that is available for sale. Both are certainly liable to be taken down, certainly. But while both are wrong, to say they are the same because they break the same law is like saying murder and manslaughter are the same. Theres also the context specific information in this case, in which we know that fanarts and things, which are obscure, would require more time and resources to find and take down than A2MR, which in contrast probably made it to their ears without even trying, and has a major case for harm against it (it is a metroid video game, a remake of an existing one, being given away for free)

If the whole point of the fanfic, fanart, and avatar argument was to prove that those things are also illegal then ok, that doesn't really change anything about this argument. If the point was to say they are both equally harmless, then thats wrong based on the criteria of fair use/copyright infringement. There is no objective metric to say A2MR is harmless, and there are many that could potentially support an argument of financial damages or affecting the integrity of the IP.

 

[Toxi]

I havent

I would like to, I'll get around to it eventually. I know it sounds super uptight but I really do want to at least buy the original first. Never played M2 before.

It's on the 3DS virtual console. Even though it has some issues, it's still fun. And the Spider Ball gives it a neat gimmick that hasn't appeared in any other official 2D Metroid.