Nintendo games are made to "100%". The only console without achievements would be best served by them.

Feb 20, 2018
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#1
Achievements/trophies are a very polarizing subject. My belief is they are shunned usually because developers often simply don't understand how to use them to make games more enjoyable, but instead often turn achieving them into a chore. That could be a entirely different subject though.

I've been playing a ton of Nintendo games lately. Doing so I quickly realize almost all Nintendo first-party games have two seperate goals:

1) Beat the game
2) Find all collectibles, score perfect runs.

The first is usually fairly easy and caters to the younger audience or more casual gamers. The second feels like the "correct goal" for more seasoned gamers.

I, personally, do not feel like I really "beat" a Mario game, for example, just by beating Bowser and seeing the credits. I need to unlock all the hidden stages, find all the red coins, stars, moons, etc.

Whether it is Kirby, Yoshi, Zelda, Pokémon, etc, almost all Nintendo games follow this blueprint. And its great.

But, I would love that last little carrot to further entice the chase. I want a permanent record of the time I spent with games and my accomplishments with it.

I was trying to remember the other day if I ended up 100%ing the first "New" Super Mario game. Without finding the cartridge and my DS, I can't check. I just want a sticker, trophy or something I can look at as a reminder.

Of course, this all falls apart if Nintendo were to make the same mistakes other developers make when implementing an achievement system. I think this is why many Nintendo fans are reluctant to have such a system.

The achievements simply need to be rewarding the goals set by the actual game. Getting every moon in Mario Odyssey should be an achievement. Jumping 1500 times, should not. Nor should jumping from enemy to enemy the times without hitting the ground.

It's pretty clear that if achievements haven't happened by now, they probably never will. But, I can't help to think it would set Nintendo games over the top.

Agree/disagree? What do you think has kept Nintendo from implementing their own spin on this system?
 

Quezacolt

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Jan 8, 2019
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#2
I don't really care if a game has achievments or not, it doesnt change my enjoyment at all, so if nintendo ever adds them or not, to me is indifferent.
The only games where i do try to get some achievments, are from blizzard games, like world of warcraft, since they rewarded me with stuff, like mounts, titles, pets, etc... If all games did something like this, i think i would care more about achievments, because i would get something useful out of it.
 
Likes: wit3tyg3r
Nov 24, 2018
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#4
I don't care about achievements but other devs make such complete games too and Nintendo also has some games with in-game achievement-like systems, just not system wide so yeah. Achievements seem to be an after thought in many cases anyway and just signify when you reach a given point in the game or whatever lame thing much of the time so whatever, they add nothing an in-game system can't, the total score doesn't mean anything anyway when so many games have them as an afterthought where you do nothing special or fun to get them. If they add them whatever, if they don't, whatever.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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Jan 30, 2018
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I prefer account-bound achievement systems. They add another layer for completionists (unless it involves shitty MP trophies). It gives me a reason to try out things that I wouldn't otherwise, or to find new avenues to complete certain levels.

For those who don't like it, they can simply ignore the feature. I don't see a reason to try to deny achievements on the platform outside of pure selfishness.
 

AV

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#9
  • AV

    AV

Agree/disagree? What do you think has kept Nintendo from implementing their own spin on this system?
Because Nintendo don't do things like everyone else, for better or worse. In this case, it's neither really. Achievements get too much credit (people who refuse to play games without them are just ridiculous and weird) for what is essentially a checklist with some nice visuals and sounds. It doesn't make games any better or worse, and it's not going to sell any systems any time soon. It'd certainly nice to have Nintendo achievements (probably ribbons or medals) but it's by no means important in any way.
 
Likes: hariseldon
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#10
It would be really nice for Nintendo. They could even copy the trophy system from Playstation with the platinum being a star. Fire flowers, mushrooms, ect could be the silver, broze, gold, ect. It would work pretty well.

You could see how many stars each person has earned in their profile. Maybe they could even let you "unlock doors" with the stars with discounts or something behind them.
 
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Likes: Osukaa
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#12
I'd love it if Nintendo games offered more stat tracking. Smash Bros in particular has always done a standup job of tracking all sorts of nerdy metrics. This could be paired with proper leaderboards so that you can compare yourself to others and see how you rank. Your 'achievement' would be public, too.

Lots of achievements are aimed at casual players. Only a handful actually reflect high-level play and even those are usually tied to how many hours you've invested and not your skill level.
 
Dec 11, 2018
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#13
Nintendo could have achievements, but then Nintendo wouldn't want to store those details. If they do implement them, it will probably end up being stored with your game save. lol
 
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#14
I've always thought achievements were dumb, and I've always found collect-athons bottom of the barrel in terms of game design. The shard hunt in Wind Waker and the artifact hunt in Metroid Prime were some of the most glaring examples of a terrible, lazy mechanic shitting up an otherwise good game. I couldn't care less about collecting x number of stars, either.

Mindlessly collecting random shit in a game is boring to me. I think that platformers actually lost a lot after Mario 64, because _actually getting to the end of the level_ was no longer the game, and I think that should be the bread and butter of platformers. I always looked at them as journeys where the real goal was to just get somewhere not collect random shit I couldn't care less about. Basically, I don't like doing unintuitive things. If there's some glowing piece of crap that's really risky to get without dying, my instinct is to NOT try to grab it.
 
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#15
For me it's about getting the most out of my games. If a game is available on both Switch and PS4 I will buy it on PS4, even though I love the Switch, as the trophies add extra things to accomplish, therefore more value. So at the very least in my case Nintendo is losing actual sales by not having achievements.
 
Likes: Osukaa
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#16
What I do is, before I play a game, I get a sheet of notebook paper out and write down all my goals for it. You know, stuff like "complete the game", "collect all the stuff", "max out level", and so on. Then, as I play the game, I put little checkmarks next to the goals as I accomplish them. There's a little bell next to the paper, like you see on motel counters, that I ring when I check something off. I do this because without explicit goals to drive my experience, I get hopelessly lose interest in playing the game. When I'm finished with the game, I take this piece of paper and I go around and shove it in everybody's face, screaming, "Suck it bitches!"

Does that sound stupid to you? It should. Because achievements are stupid.
 
Oct 24, 2007
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#17
I hate achievments, but the reasons you mention might be why NIntendo don't include them.

I'm not sure if there's any data on this but it could be the case that you might actually play games longer if you don't get achievements as getting them all might make you want to put the game down?
Personally, I find that I start to go after achievements, I find myself addicted but not actually having fun. I start to resent the game.
 
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#18
Never liked them. They are pointless, except for stretching out the game for completionists. I am a completionist, so it obviously annoys me to do arbitrary and stupid things. Luckily, I mostly play older games, so I only have to deal with it sometimes.
 
Jul 26, 2018
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#20
This should be a choice developers should make, not the platform. If devs want to have some sort of stat tracking or achievement in their games, let them implement it themselves. Nintendo should concentrate on improving their online system instead.
 
Likes: Griffon
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#21
I can't see how having less features than the others is a good thing. I mean, it's ok to be neutral about it but positively rooting for it not having achievements is puzzling to me, to say the least.

Actually, with the Miiverse that doesnt exist anymore (which is shameful) achievements or trophies would make lot of sense. Moreover when games like Bayonetta 2 DO HAVE their own achievements and it was lot of fun to unlock them. Nintendo games, being very arcade and gameplay-focused , could have lot of challenges and fun trophies. I would go even further and would design , for any platform, a "metagame system" involving photo-modes, video editing or other cool stuff you can do in a videogame. There is no wrong in adding extra value.
 
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#22
I prefer account-bound achievement systems. They add another layer for completionists (unless it involves shitty MP trophies). It gives me a reason to try out things that I wouldn't otherwise, or to find new avenues to complete certain levels.

For those who don't like it, they can simply ignore the feature. I don't see a reason to try to deny achievements on the platform outside of pure selfishness.
This is my thoughts with Nintendo games in a nutshell. I love trophy/achievement system. Games I enjoyed but wouldn’t do some of this extra stuff without them led me to more fun. I have a MASSIVE backlog, so unless I can platinum a game I tend to settle for beating it and moving on to the next game. I play my switch occasionally but I would play it a lot more with a good achievement system in place. I finished Mario Odyssey but just didn’t see the need to go for 100% completion for my own knowledge that I did.
 

OldGamer

Neo Member
Jul 8, 2017
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#23
I'm a PS trophy hunter, and would definitely like a good implementation. I've found myself enjoying games more though doing this, because they are both personalized and offer a souvenir screenshot of when you accomplish the goal (the latter I think is unique to PS).

Personally, I do feel they help stretch out the lifespan of games, particularly those that are single player because I, too, prefer that extra carrot that pushes me to get good at the game and experience extra easter eggs I may have otherwise have skipped.

Like any game, though, it should gravitate to both sane player expectations and not a total waste of the players' time. As long as Nintendo does not make trophy requirements sadistic, I would support it.
 
Aug 19, 2007
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#24
Yup, its the one thing that's kinda killing my fun with my switch. I want to go back and get all the stars/moons in Mario but i want an achievement or trophy for doing so...

I gravitate towards Nintendo partly due to the lack of achievements. Gaming in its purest form, no distractions.
There is no way this is true
 
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Jul 1, 2009
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#25
I don't care that much unless real world (or virtual) value is placed on the achievements. I always thought that these companies are crazy for not making downloadable rewards for hitting achievements or buying with achievement points. Xbox 360 dabbled with it with tshirts for your avatars, PS did that "bid on game swag with trophies" once. It should be standard for all of the big 3. Steam even does this with cards and trading, to a slightly different degree.

If I get that Demon's Souls platinum trophy, let me download a wallpaper or something. Give me an avatar icon that shows I got it, anything like that.

As is, achievements are worthless for most people. I guess it's debatable that it shouldn't have value to begin with though, so maybe I'm just dumb.
 
Jul 14, 2018
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#26
I like achievements but they're an arbitrary means of reward that's best served when undertaking mundane tasks in order to keep you focused.

I don't they're as important on Nintendo systems because Nintendo usually makes the game-playing process intrinsically rewarding, thus decreasing the need for external rewards.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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#27
What I do is, before I play a game, I get a sheet of notebook paper out and write down all my goals for it. You know, stuff like "complete the game", "collect all the stuff", "max out level", and so on. Then, as I play the game, I put little checkmarks next to the goals as I accomplish them. There's a little bell next to the paper, like you see on motel counters, that I ring when I check something off. I do this because without explicit goals to drive my experience, I get hopelessly lose interest in playing the game. When I'm finished with the game, I take this piece of paper and I go around and shove it in everybody's face, screaming, "Suck it bitches!"

Does that sound stupid to you? It should. Because achievements are stupid.
Cool, so you don't like them. Should those that do enjoy it be denied the ability to have them? Or can you simply ignore them if they were implemented? Does it affect you in any major way?
 
Likes: OldGamer
Jul 26, 2013
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#28
I don't have any gaming friends so trophies really don't have a point to me. If I want a "trophy" I can just make them up myself and write down a checklist on a piece of paper, or just do every last thing you can possible do in a video game.
 
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Likes: noonespecial
Jan 12, 2018
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#29
Ill replay the shit out of botw if they add an achievement system.

As is, achievements are worthless for most people. I guess it's debatable that it shouldn't have value to begin with though, so maybe I'm just dumb.
Considering achievements/trophies are mandatory on both Xbox and ps4, it would be hard to say that they’re worthless to most people. I guess by now they lost a bit of interest but they were pretty huge when they first implemented these.
 

ArchaeEnkidu

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Jan 30, 2018
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#30
Ill replay the shit out of botw if they add an achievement system.


Considering achievements/trophies are mandatory on both Xbox and ps4, it would be hard to say that they’re worthless to most people. I guess by now they lost a bit of interest but they were pretty huge when they first implemented these.
There are still large communities that go for them. True Achievements, True Trophies, Playstation Trophy Hunters, etc. A good number of people find it enjoyable.
 
Jan 12, 2018
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#31
There are still large communities that go for them. True Achievements, True Trophies, Playstation Trophy Hunters, etc. A good number of people find it enjoyable.
Exactly. Hell, I was straight up obsessed for awhile and my brother hit 100k GS in less than two years. (Back in the 360 days too so when the limit was 1k per game unless dlc was added)
 
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Aug 25, 2014
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#32
Just to provide some perspective, most of my time on PS4 is spent in 3 places:

In games
In the store
In the trophy section

How do I spend my time in the trophy section?

I enjoy looking back and seeing what I've done, especially with the PS4 capturing pictures of those moments.
I use it to help choose what to play next by reviewing incomplete objectives. It helps me remember what games I have yet to beat.
I like comparing what I've done with friends.
I like seeing how far my friends have gone on games so that I know what I can/can't talk about to avoid spoiling anything, etc.

Trophies add a lot of value to a gaming ecosystem. Someone not liking them doesn't invalidate the objective value they can add for the many that do, and you can always disable the notifications.
 
Nov 24, 2018
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#33
Sounds like you'd have more fun if you spent that time in games too instead :p

You can take screenshots to reminisce of stuff on all the systems, that's neater :)
 
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#34
Sounds like you'd have more fun if you spent that time in games too instead :p

You can take screenshots to reminisce of stuff on all the systems, that's neater :)
I can't tell you how many Switch games are sitting incomplete because at a certain point I started playing another game and have since forgotten I had more to do in the previous game. I know I still have to do a bunch of stuff in BOTW, and I have more stuff to unlock in MK8. Can't tell you what other countless things are out there, and there's no way for me to know without searching through my games list and opening each and every one of them. Instead I find myself going back to PS4 to complete more games because there's an automatic list there I can use to keep track.
 
Sep 25, 2015
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#35
Meh, I kind of like it how it is. Individual games can do their own achievement systems if they like, and the ones that don't aren't saddled with a bunch of half-arsed "finish level 1" "finish level 2" "finish level 3" nonsense.

Ratchet and Clank did it best back on PS2.
 
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#36
Everytime this thread comes up, I'm still not convinced.

I find achievements very immersion breaking, and patronizing to a degree.

It's not just the shitty feeling when you "beat" a game to see some 34% or whatever obnoxious number, but the flipside as well - that trophy pop makes my sense of accomplishment feel not very special at all, but so thoroughly anticipated to have it's own signifier.

I think OP makes a good case for this being due to bad trophies/achievements, but I suspect a well-designed system is still subtraction by addition.

* * *
I'd be curious to see where the pro/anti achievement thing falls by age.
 
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Likes: noonespecial
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#37
Cool, so you don't like them. Should those that do enjoy it be denied the ability to have them? Or can you simply ignore them if they were implemented? Does it affect you in any major way?
What is it that the kids say? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes?

Look, gaming has a natural addictive quality to it. This quality has been repeatedly exploited by dastardly people for profit - but it has also been accidentally exploited by well meaning game designers just looking to provide incentives and value to gaming. If achievements cause you to play a game in a way you don't enjoy towards an end you don't care for, then you are doing things because of the addiction rather than the joy or value of gaming. Getting that little 'ding' sound and a checkmark in your book of checkmarks is stupid when Ubisoft designs a game around it, and it's just as stupid when console developers design a console around it.

I happen to be a big believer in gaming. I love gaming, of all sort. I think it makes you smarter, I think it makes you mentally healthier, I think it provides a playground for all those skills you learn in school that you don't use in real life that make you a more well rounded thinker and problem solver, and I think gaming's existence is a net gain for humanity - possibly even a required part of it. I think as more research is done, we're going to discover that games, specifically video games, are probably one of the healthiest and most worthwhile exercises we can do for our bodies.

But not all of gaming is good, and I am against anything on the dark side of gaming. The Skinner boxes that condition and control you. The ones that reduce you to a series of stimuli responses, an unthinking machine merely responding to the environment rather than understanding and influencing it. I'm against the things that short circuit your feel good responses, giving you a rewarding feeling for doing nothing or doing something detrimental or self destructive. Achievements work on the same principles as Farmville - the not good ones - and I think the game industry would be better without it.
 
Jan 26, 2018
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#38
100% Achievement =/= 100% Completed.

Aside from the Many challenges and speedrune people can do to themselves (no coin ruin, dark souls with level 1)

People gotta be creative, and achievments and trophies just serve as mixing the logic of playing videogames.

Most players that like this just want the pop-up and the stimulation from the sound cue that comes with it, or just to show them to other friends.

The game is just a mean for something else.
 
Nov 24, 2018
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#39
I can't tell you how many Switch games are sitting incomplete because at a certain point I started playing another game and have since forgotten I had more to do in the previous game. I know I still have to do a bunch of stuff in BOTW, and I have more stuff to unlock in MK8. Can't tell you what other countless things are out there, and there's no way for me to know without searching through my games list and opening each and every one of them. Instead I find myself going back to PS4 to complete more games because there's an automatic list there I can use to keep track.
Play what's fun for as long as it's fun, you don't have to find every korok or shrine or whatever checklist if you only do it to get it all done and not because you're enjoying it. If you do have the urge to play BOTW or whatever game then just do it whether you have such stuff left to do or not, you'll rediscover it when you fire it up anyhow, if you don't want to play it then simply don't :)
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

Vincit qui se vincit
Jan 30, 2018
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#40
What is it that the kids say? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes?

Look, gaming has a natural addictive quality to it. This quality has been repeatedly exploited by dastardly people for profit - but it has also been accidentally exploited by well meaning game designers just looking to provide incentives and value to gaming. If achievements cause you to play a game in a way you don't enjoy towards an end you don't care for, then you are doing things because of the addiction rather than the joy or value of gaming. Getting that little 'ding' sound and a checkmark in your book of checkmarks is stupid when Ubisoft designs a game around it, and it's just as stupid when console developers design a console around it.

I happen to be a big believer in gaming. I love gaming, of all sort. I think it makes you smarter, I think it makes you mentally healthier, I think it provides a playground for all those skills you learn in school that you don't use in real life that make you a more well rounded thinker and problem solver, and I think gaming's existence is a net gain for humanity - possibly even a required part of it. I think as more research is done, we're going to discover that games, specifically video games, are probably one of the healthiest and most worthwhile exercises we can do for our bodies.

But not all of gaming is good, and I am against anything on the dark side of gaming. The Skinner boxes that condition and control you. The ones that reduce you to a series of stimuli responses, an unthinking machine merely responding to the environment rather than understanding and influencing it. I'm against the things that short circuit your feel good responses, giving you a rewarding feeling for doing nothing or doing something detrimental or self destructive. Achievements work on the same principles as Farmville - the not good ones - and I think the game industry would be better without it.
Seems like you are projecting your own issues onto achievement/trophy systems, duderino.

Achievements do not cause me to play a game in a manner I wouldn't like. I am not doing it simply out of "addiction", but because I actually enjoy doing it. If a game has achievements that I genuinely don't find fun - I simply don't do them.

If you are someone who can't control that, then that is on you. Not the game, not the developer.
 
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TLZ

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Oct 20, 2015
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#41
It doesn't have to be an achievement system, just a detailed record of what you've done so far, that you can check on your Nintendo app or browser. That would be enough for me.
 
Likes: Cheezeman3000
Feb 20, 2018
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#42
Play what's fun for as long as it's fun, you don't have to find every korok or shrine or whatever checklist if you only do it to get it all done and not because you're enjoying it. If you do have the urge to play BOTW or whatever game then just do it whether you have such stuff left to do or not, you'll rediscover it when you fire it up anyhow, if you don't want to play it then simply don't :)
Often the process of having a goal and achieving the goal is what makes gaming "fun" and sets it apart from other forms of entertainment. Achievement systems reward players that approach games with this mindset.

I don't stop every 5 minutes and decide if what I'm doing is "fun". There were plenty of times in RDR2, for example, where what I was doing at that exact moment wasn't "fun". But, the reward for pushing through more than enough made up for it.

Even games thought of as pure "fun" aren't perfect from start to finish. There were several moons in Mario Odyssey I probably didn't enjoy getting, but the satisfaction of achieving all the goals the game gave me was rewarding enough for it to be worth pushing through.

I guess I can understand how this mindset doesn't make sense for all gamers. I think it may be the difference between those of us who appreciate achievement systems and those who do not.

I don't think it's that different from other hobbies. I enjoy working out and lifting weights. Some parts I am pushing myself and not enjoying myself - at that exact moment - but the satisfaction of seeing each lift or workout to the end is worth it and enjoyable. Same could be said probably about any sport.

Pushing yourself out of your own comfort zone, even for relatively unimportant hobbies, is it's own "fun".

Like I said in the OP, this can only be taken so far. A horrible trophy list can ruin both any enjoyment and satisfaction from the hunt. Having a trophy tied to mindlessly killing 100,000 scrub mobs benefits nobody.
 
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Nov 24, 2018
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#43
Well sure no game is perfect but if I'm playing Mario Galaxy 2 and the majority of the levels are fun I don't need an achievement dangled to pass through a couple of not so great levels, I know I'm likely in for more awesomeness if I just get through these potentially inoffensive ones, it's kinda obvious, an achievement for passing those levels won't ensure the next ones are fun anyhow so without the hope of more awesomeness around the corner I wouldn't play regardless of the achievement. Same for the BOTW example, if I want to find all the koroks or whatever and find it fun on its own and/or with all the inbetween busywork or whatever random stuff may come up on the way to ('xcuse me) achieving it and just playing the game, I will do it even if they don't unlock an achievement in a graph somewhere and if I don't find it fun then the graph itself won't compel me enough to and I'll do something that I find fun in the game, maybe resume the korok hunt later on or never before moving on to another game. Content is king to me.
 
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#44
Well sure no game is perfect but if I'm playing Mario Galaxy 2 and the majority of the levels are fun I don't need an achievement dangled to pass through a couple of not so great levels, I know I'm likely in for more awesomeness if I just get through these potentially inoffensive ones, it's kinda obvious, an achievement for passing those levels won't ensure the next ones are fun anyhow so without the hope of more awesomeness around the corner I wouldn't play regardless of the achievement. Same for the BOTW example, if I want to find all the koroks or whatever and find it fun on its own and/or with all the inbetween busywork or whatever random stuff may come up on the way to ('xcuse me) achieving it and just playing the game, I will do it even if they don't unlock an achievement in a graph somewhere and if I don't find it fun then the graph itself won't compel me enough to and I'll do something that I find fun in the game, maybe resume the korok hunt later on or never before moving on to another game. Content is king to me.
I agree content is king, and that's precisely why I like achievements in any form; they help lead me to discover all of the content a game has to offer. Instead of having to look up a guide to see what else I can do in the game, I can just look at the trophies. Sure I might still have to use a guide to figure out how to do the trophy, but I wouldn't know about it in the first place if the trophy didn't exist. I've done some really crazy cool stuff in games thanks to trophies.

Plus, Nintendo is already doing achievements. I recently went through all the Smash Bros achievements and had a great time. All they have to do is make these accomplishments visible outside of the game. It is such a small thing and it makes such a huge difference.
 
Likes: ArchaeEnkidu
May 9, 2016
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#45
Cool, so you don't like them. Should those that do enjoy it be denied the ability to have them? Or can you simply ignore them if they were implemented? Does it affect you in any major way?
I can't stand this argument - it pops up every thread about this.

There's a significance to having to opt-out, so yes. There's issues of compulsion, addictive behavior, FOMO, anti-social behavior, and feeling like you're not getting the intended experience on some level. It's the mirror of the compulsive behavior this meta-game triggers and manipulates in the first place for the benefit of the platform holder.

None of these are any less of big deals than a little bing for doing something that should been rewarding in and of itself in the first place.

I 'm punished enough in this bizzare culture for having to opt-out and "ignore" manipulative bullshit - it's not "simply" done anymore.
 
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Likes: noonespecial

ArchaeEnkidu

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#46
I can't stand this argument - it pops up every thread about this.

There's a significance to having to opt-out, so yes. There's issues of compulsion, addictive behavior, FOMO, anti-social behavior, and feeling like you're not getting the intended experience on some level. It's the mirror of the compulsive behavior this meta-game triggers and manipulates in the first place for the benefit of the platform holder.

None of these are any less of big deals than a little bing for doing something that should been rewarding in and of itself in the first place.

I 'm punished enough in this bizzare culture for having to opt-out and "ignore" manipulative bullshit - it's not "simply" done anymore.
Even if the achievements were not there, you would have to deal with the same exact things that you are talking about within the games themselves. Trophies and Achievements you can easily opt out of and it won't affect your gaming experience at its core. This is not like gambling with lootboxes that affect core portions of the game. This is a application based outside of the core game that can be turned off in the options and never used.
 
Likes: Vawn
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#47
Even if the achievements were not there, you would have to deal with the same exact things that you are talking about within the games themselves. Trophies and Achievements you can easily opt out of and it won't affect your gaming experience at its core. This is not like gambling with lootboxes that affect core portions of the game. This is a application based outside of the core game that can be turned off in the options and never used.
In games that have thier own contained achievements, sure. But on a platform level, it's a socialized component of not only playing the game, but of playing games, and opens up the possibility of the negative things I mentioned that were simply not there previously.
I'm not talking about a ding or a not ding. I'm talking about a manipulative social layer on top of the game. Does opting out of my notifications keep me from everyones achievments/trophies throughout the connected UX? No.

It's not in the game at all, so I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding me by saying it would be in the game anyway. If you mean compulsive triggers, sure - but a) they're not necessarily socilaized, and b) they are opt-in by way of purchasing the game and pressing start.

You do understand the feeling though - it's very similar to loot boxes in that you can "simply ignore them". You really can. The issues I bring up are to illustrate my point: there is a cost to opting-out. You literally lose less than nothing by not participating in microtransactions and loot boxes - yet we feel cheated by thier very existence. It's because we suspect the default state is, or is biased towards 'opt-in', and we're losing out by not wanting to, or feeling forced to participate.



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ArchaeEnkidu

Vincit qui se vincit
Jan 30, 2018
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#48
In games that have thier own contained achievements, sure. But on a platform level, it's a socialized component of not only playing the game, but of playing games, and opens up the possibility of the negative things I mentioned that were simply not there previously.
I'm not talking about a ding or a not ding. I'm talking about a manipulative social layer on top of the game. Does opting out of my notifications keep me from everyones achievments/trophies throughout the connected UX? No.

It's not in the game at all, so I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding me by saying it would be in the game anyway. If you mean compulsive triggers, sure - but a) they're not necessarily socilaized, and b) they are opt-in by way of purchasing the game and pressing start.

You do understand the feeling though - it's very similar to loot boxes in that you can "simply ignore them". You really can. The issues I bring up are to illustrate my point: there is a cost to opting-out. You literally lose less than nothing by not participating in microtransactions and loot boxes - yet we feel cheated by thier very existence. It's because we suspect the default state is, or is biased towards 'opt-in', and we're losing out by not wanting to, or feeling forced to participate.



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What? You lose out on content of the game by opting out of lootboxes and microtransactions. In some cases, you lose out on items that could change how the game is played at a fundamental level or are forced to grind for a longer period (Ex: Middle-Earth Shadow of War). Trophies/achievements do not fundamentally change how the game is played. You can easily opt out of Achievements/Trophies - less so with lootboxes/microtransactions. Both of which can have addictive qualities, but one is detrimental to the gaming experience - the other is far less so unless you purposefully make it.
 
May 9, 2016
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#49
What? You lose out on content of the game by opting out of lootboxes and microtransactions. In some cases, you lose out on items that could change how the game is played at a fundamental level or are forced to grind for a longer period (Ex: Middle-Earth Shadow of War). Trophies/achievements do not fundamentally change how the game is played. You can easily opt out of Achievements/Trophies - less so with lootboxes/microtransactions. Both of which can have addictive qualities, but one is detrimental to the gaming experience - the other is far less so unless you purposefully make it.
By your applied logic, you can "miss out" on items and content in games without mtx and lootboxes too, so you should simply ignore it. I don't think that's where we're going to meet each other on this anyway.

You are right that opting out of trophies/achievements doesn't necessarily change how an individual game is fundamentally played (they absolutely can if a player is opted in).

Can you agree that they can affect how games are played on a platform level?

Even if I opt out of notifications, I still see everyone elses. What I'm claiming is the burden of opting out doesn't operate in the space of an individual game, but in a player's relationship to the platform ecosystem.
 
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Dec 3, 2018
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#50
Achievements do not cause me to play a game in a manner I wouldn't like. I am not doing it simply out of "addiction", but because I actually enjoy doing it. If a game has achievements that I genuinely don't find fun - I simply don't do them.
You are using them simply as a loose set of goals, and you don't need an achievement system for that at all. Remember when video games used to give you things in game, like costumes or difficulty modes, for completing games at different difficulty levels or under a certain time? Now you get a ding and an "achievement awarded", while they sell costumes and difficulty levels as DLC. Well, that was worth it...

And even if it isn't making YOU play games in a manner you don't like, I think there's plenty of evidence out there that it does affect a lot of gamers. Maybe even most gamers, to some extent great or small. I've seen people grow to hate games because of specific trophies, and I've seen people play shitty games just for achievements and avoid good games because their achievements took too long. I, personally, have had games ruined by chasing trophies. I learned the hard way that trophies and achievements can ruin game experiences. You know how they say the biggest anti-smoking proponents are ex-smokers?