Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think with MiiVerse and stickers and other stuff they were building on top of it, they had an almost better system...
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Nintendo games are made to "100%". The only console without achievements would be best served by them.
- Thread starter Vawn
- Start date
I think with MiiVerse and stickers and other stuff they were building on top of it, they had an almost better system...
{insert code here}
Member
I like trophies(or achievements) for 2 reasons.
One, they add another layer of fun/challenge to my gaming.
Two, they get me to explore aspects of games that I would otherwise likely never touch.
My second point as you might imagine can both be good and bad but in my experience has mostly been good. Examples of this being good were my going back and finishing Freedom Wars after not touching it for at least a year to get the platinum trophy or beating all the VR missions on MGS2. Trophy hunting is fun, satisfying, and easy to get into to when you're doing the hunting in games that are already awesome.
Last edited:
The Scrivener
Member
I feel the same about Nintendo games too, I love to 100% the Marios and Kirbys. I love achievements too.
However, keeping N pure by not not having them makes sense too.
Take for example Celeste, stunning game, very Nintendo-y. I am 100%ing it for the cheevos, but I have to use assist mode because I ain't got no time in life to beat the C-Sides. So I feel like a right cheat playing them on assist mode just for the 100% completion record. I wish I could leave all the C-Sides and B-Sides as a mark of respect that I can't beat them.
Cheevos encourage guides and as a long-time gamer I don't like guides.
So, I'm divided.
However, keeping N pure by not not having them makes sense too.
Take for example Celeste, stunning game, very Nintendo-y. I am 100%ing it for the cheevos, but I have to use assist mode because I ain't got no time in life to beat the C-Sides. So I feel like a right cheat playing them on assist mode just for the 100% completion record. I wish I could leave all the C-Sides and B-Sides as a mark of respect that I can't beat them.
Cheevos encourage guides and as a long-time gamer I don't like guides.
So, I'm divided.
Last edited:
Starlight Lotice
Member
I'd love them to add an achievement system that nets you Gold/Platinum Stars for discounts to other games really. That way, the loyal fans will buy even MORE of your games and entice people to get them for a different reason.
Not exactly an achievements system per se, but an incentive to get more Gold Stars for your Nintendo Account like they do for their Mobile Games.
Not exactly an achievements system per se, but an incentive to get more Gold Stars for your Nintendo Account like they do for their Mobile Games.
No Word Count
Member
I am asking this as a perfectly legitimate question, because the psychology of all this has always intrigued me, but... why? Why do you want that "badge" so eagerly? What exactly do they add to the experience, and why does it feel like a lesser experience to you without them?
Though I don't feel such systems are inherently necessary, at the end of the day the reason for the lack of such basic features boils down to one classic Nintendo trait - cheapness. They simply don't want to put down the money to maintain such a system.
Last edited:
a multicultural team of v
Member
People have been coming up with self imposed challenges for games since like, the beginning of gaming. Some people even film themselves on Twitch attempting to complete those self imposed challenges. Hell, some people even film themselves on Twitch in front of 250k people for a week straight twice a year trying to complete those self imposed challenges.
Bunch a freakin losers.
Vawn
Banned
Why do you want that moon in Super Mario Odyssey? Isn't the act of running and jumping as Mario fun enough? Why go out of your way for a hard to reach moon? You can't use it for anything in real life.
Achievements give goals for a hobby based on achieving goals and permanent record of said goals.
CaptainAnchovie
Banned
You should not waste your time 100%'ing Breath of the Wild, I have done it on your behalf, the investment was not worth the return.
Achievements/Trophies don't matter one bit to me, they never have. I only play games to 100% if I feel it's worth my time through incentives, the gameplay is engaging enough to continue pressing on, or if I feel that I haven't gotten enough out of the game causing a kind of internal compulsory drive to finish more.
Achievements/Trophies don't matter one bit to me, they never have. I only play games to 100% if I feel it's worth my time through incentives, the gameplay is engaging enough to continue pressing on, or if I feel that I haven't gotten enough out of the game causing a kind of internal compulsory drive to finish more.
No Word Count
Member
Because I can't progress in the game if I don't? Because doing so unlocks no content and new gameplay? Because it's an intrinsic part of the gameplay.
Now, if the achievements are built into the actual design of the game and provide functional rewards by unlocking them, that is a different story. Unlocking a new costume for completing the game with every character, or getting a new title / avatar for 50 online wins, or earning a powerful weapon for beating a secret boss. That sort of thing. That is adding something to the experience.
I rarely see this actually done, but it's enjoyable when it is.
The older Uncharted games are a good example of this. The out of game trophies mirrored in game milestones, and you earned things in the game for accomplishing them. Functional identical to the reward systems of the game itself. The recent Spider-Man also did this, with almost all the trophies in the game directly tied to progress and unlock paths. Very few gimmicks that you had to go out of your way to get, just for the sake of getting them.
This is a false equivalence argument.
Because there wouldn't be any game if I didn't. It would be like asking me "Why not just randomly move the chess pieces around the board? Why plan out a strategy?" Because I will lose the game if I don't.
The inherent goal of every single video game ever made is to "beat" it. This is the basic concept, design and purpose of them by their very design, and why people play them. Without that element, it ceases being a video game at all.
That doesn't really answer my question though. I know what they do. I'm not attacking you. I'm simply trying to understand why, on a psychological level, does it feel like a lesser experience to you without them?
What I especially do not understand is when people go out of their way to unlock achievements solely because they're there, and not out of any sense of enjoyment of the experience. So many times I hear about completionists getting annoyed or frustrated at games because certain achievements are tedious or extremely difficult or tied purely to a deliberate grind. In that case, all I can ask them is... why are you chasing after them then, if you're not even enjoying yourself?
That borders on obsessive compulsion to me. Putting physical and emotional stress on oneself for the sake of a virtual badge case.
The only game I've ever gone out of my way to get every achievement in is Bayonetta, and that's solely because I wanted to do all the content of that game anyway. Getting the achievement was only an aside to that experience. I wasn't seeking them out on purpose. Bayonetta 2 never felt like less of an experience to me for the lack of them.
Last edited:
Platinumstorm
Member
No. We don't need achievements.
Zog
Banned
Getting a star in Super Mario 64 is the end of the level (except the 100 coin stars).
ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
I still don't understand this desire. To clarify, is its public nature (shared on your profile, etc) a necessary part, or merely having a kind of global "badges" screen showing your progress across many games? Neither seems interesting to me at all.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
You're not enjoying your games properly, don't you see?
You are under the miasmatic spell of Achievements. Your lungs are filled with that bad air. You cannot truly enjoy a videogame until you rid your life of all Achievements.
zenspider
Member
Vawn
Banned
I guy earlier said he refuses to support the dark side of gaming.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
Yes. Before you know it, these game developers will start introducing more and more achievements until the game is nothing but a string of watching cutscenes and earning achievements. And when that gets old, they'll resort to keeping score.
zenspider
Member
Shouldn't the game be doing that?
It's not even just uninteresting. It invites the peer pressure, FOMO, and narcissism, insecurity, compulsive behavior, etc. from the social space. It's not a leaderboard. It's "buy more, play more because everyone is watching".
Again, I think there is a generational gap with the comfort of being put on Front St. by corporations. Today's youth seem to have zero suspicion or desire to examine the relationships corporations have with thier information. I wouldn't be surprised if most folks bothered by achievements were born before 1995 or thereabouts.
noonespecial
Member
I personally don't care at all for achievements. WIth that being said, however, I really don't mind their existence on a platform level or even as a part of individual games. Where this all bugs me however is in these potential situations:
1) In-game achievements/trophies/ratings/rankings that you cannot opt out of and that are at odds with the narrative or "type" of game. I'm not talking about "score" based games here (like for SHUMPs or old school platformers and other games where, in addition to beating the game, a major goal is to get a high score). What I am talking about is for more story based games, RPGs, etc. It bothers me when I play a tactical RPG for instance and I'm given an end level "ranking" taking me from a feeling of elation that I just barely beat this stage, to a feeling of the game telling me that I absolutely suck at this game. I'm not in school anymore so I don't like seeing that I scored a fucking "C-" on something. No, I don't suffer depression from this or anything but it makes me feel like the game devs are saying "Screw you - you should have been able to do much better than this" even in missions where the narrative suggests that the heroes just barely managed to get out alive. This kind of crap is very immersion breaking to me. I loved RDR2 but one thing I absolutely could not stand is the in-game trophy ranking system for each mission. Not only do they not tell you what you need to do at the beginning of the mission to score "well" on it but often the things you need to do to "score well" on the mission are not anything I would have ever specifically wanted to have done in my play through anyway. Like I'm going to rush through a mission to complete it in a couple of minutes? How was I (as the character Arthur Morgan) supposed to just "know" that I needed to get at least 10 head shots? It wasn't in the narrative that Arthur needed to race out of there in any kind of a hurry so why the rush? I'm not aware of any way to opt-out of seeing any of that crap in the game and I think the game is not served well because of it. Sure, I could just "ignore" the in-game trophy pop-up post-mission but it's hard to ignore something that pops up after a mission is over informing you that you earned a "bronze" trophy for that mission. Thanks for taking me out of the moment Rockstar and reminding me that I'm just playing a video game. Now I feel like a hamster on a wheel and not like a cowboy any longer.
2) Trophies, etc. that give nothing in-game. If I'm going to go to all that trouble then at least give me an in-game reward. Often this has been taken over by in-game crafting systems which, in effect, are like achievement systems (as you have to collect x amount of stuff or kill certain enemies to gather the materials) but they are much less obnoxious than actual achievement "systems" in that they are a part of the actual game.
3) Note that I have absolutely NO examples of this and am not sure if it is even a valid argument but I do wonder if platform-level trophies have any kind of impact on the design of the game itself so people who don't chase trophies may be missing out on content or have their content altered in a way such that they may have more enjoyment of a game if it had not been designed with trophies in mind? I hope this is not the case (as it is with loot boxes and "pay to win" games) but I do wonder about it.
Overall I prefer any "achievement systems" to be included as part of the game mechanics and not a ranking or rating system. I gave an example of crafting systems being an in-game achievement like system. Other in-game achievement systems (that don't go "DING - you got a trophy! Good on you!") are things like unlocking special powers or movesets after doing whatever successfully.
1) In-game achievements/trophies/ratings/rankings that you cannot opt out of and that are at odds with the narrative or "type" of game. I'm not talking about "score" based games here (like for SHUMPs or old school platformers and other games where, in addition to beating the game, a major goal is to get a high score). What I am talking about is for more story based games, RPGs, etc. It bothers me when I play a tactical RPG for instance and I'm given an end level "ranking" taking me from a feeling of elation that I just barely beat this stage, to a feeling of the game telling me that I absolutely suck at this game. I'm not in school anymore so I don't like seeing that I scored a fucking "C-" on something. No, I don't suffer depression from this or anything but it makes me feel like the game devs are saying "Screw you - you should have been able to do much better than this" even in missions where the narrative suggests that the heroes just barely managed to get out alive. This kind of crap is very immersion breaking to me. I loved RDR2 but one thing I absolutely could not stand is the in-game trophy ranking system for each mission. Not only do they not tell you what you need to do at the beginning of the mission to score "well" on it but often the things you need to do to "score well" on the mission are not anything I would have ever specifically wanted to have done in my play through anyway. Like I'm going to rush through a mission to complete it in a couple of minutes? How was I (as the character Arthur Morgan) supposed to just "know" that I needed to get at least 10 head shots? It wasn't in the narrative that Arthur needed to race out of there in any kind of a hurry so why the rush? I'm not aware of any way to opt-out of seeing any of that crap in the game and I think the game is not served well because of it. Sure, I could just "ignore" the in-game trophy pop-up post-mission but it's hard to ignore something that pops up after a mission is over informing you that you earned a "bronze" trophy for that mission. Thanks for taking me out of the moment Rockstar and reminding me that I'm just playing a video game. Now I feel like a hamster on a wheel and not like a cowboy any longer.
2) Trophies, etc. that give nothing in-game. If I'm going to go to all that trouble then at least give me an in-game reward. Often this has been taken over by in-game crafting systems which, in effect, are like achievement systems (as you have to collect x amount of stuff or kill certain enemies to gather the materials) but they are much less obnoxious than actual achievement "systems" in that they are a part of the actual game.
3) Note that I have absolutely NO examples of this and am not sure if it is even a valid argument but I do wonder if platform-level trophies have any kind of impact on the design of the game itself so people who don't chase trophies may be missing out on content or have their content altered in a way such that they may have more enjoyment of a game if it had not been designed with trophies in mind? I hope this is not the case (as it is with loot boxes and "pay to win" games) but I do wonder about it.
Overall I prefer any "achievement systems" to be included as part of the game mechanics and not a ranking or rating system. I gave an example of crafting systems being an in-game achievement like system. Other in-game achievement systems (that don't go "DING - you got a trophy! Good on you!") are things like unlocking special powers or movesets after doing whatever successfully.
zenspider
Member
Scores? In video games? Like apples to apples skill comparison? How positively barbaric.
Sqorin Hammerfarf
Banned
If you don't think gaming has a dark side, then I don't know what to tell you. I know people who have lost their jobs due to a World of Warcraft addiction, and there was a banker last year in my hometown who was arrested for embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars that he spent on a free to play mobile game. I mean, we can blame that guy personally for his own decisions (and the courts did), but don't you think it is a little fucking wrong to have a free to play mobile game that someone could spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on?
noonespecial
Member
Keep in mind that "participation trophies" were not a thing when us older folks were growing up. I'm in my mid-40s by the way and the only way we got trophies in school is when we actually WON something.
zenspider
Member
1) I totally understand, but I's still consider this opt-in at the purchase level. I think the bigger issue is games not exposing the grading system, giving you the skills to be good at it, or adequately addressing player set win conditions. The old Street Fighter III grading system is a perfect example: The Daigo Parry is one of the most famous performances in gaming. I think his Ken got a 'C-' grade. Valkyria Chronicles is an example of the grading system ruining the tactics you could employ. You could literally take zero damage and get a 'D' for using every turn the game gives you to achieve that feat.
2) The entire loop of Into The Breach is based on achievements, which reward you with the currency to get new mechs. It's kinda brilliant.
3) I don't even think devs can access trophy information explicitly (ask a dev). I imagine it's a "write-only" kind of thing. As far as it affecting design decisions, anecdotally I've only seen devs that bake it do so with care. I think the majority of devs just make a basic checklist of the critical path and a couple of "advanced" trophies and call it a day.
Last edited:
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
They can't keep getting away with this...
Greedings
Member
I've also never understood this. I rarely go for achievements (sometimes I do, but maybe 1/20 games I play), but I just ignore them if I don't care.
They don't get in the way of anything, and if you don't like the pop-ups, you can easily turn them off on a system-wide level.
zenspider
Member
But you can't turn them off on an ecosystem-wide level.
You can ignore your participation, and the transactions of your information, but they are still happening.
ResurrectedContrarian
Suffers with mild autism
Perhaps... I mean, I even think of people born around 1995 to be youngsters and relatively late arrivals to gaming, if that tells you anything.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
"Nintendo Switch's online subscription service now includes Ninty-Trophies (original name do not steal). Every month, seven random games will receive a list of special Ninty-Trophies that will be permanently locked away at the end of each month."
daveonezero
Banned
I prefer it to be a per game basis. I like achievements that aren't forced into games. If a developer wants to guide or steer players into new ways of playing fine. But usually the systemic games that offer multiple play styles or free form gameplay (Dishonored, Heat Signature act) the players are going to be more creative and do a lot more than the developer could ever imagine.
I know Nintendo does not need trophies/achievements. 100%ing a game was always a thing ever since they started introducing optional content and simply beating the game was no longer the pinnacle of achievement. Nintendo games were actually the first overall that went this route, where beating the final boss may even be trivial, but optional content allowed the honing of skills. The game save itself was the achievement, and the advent of external save paks helped more since you no longer needed to keep all your data on the actual game and could share it with others
I'm hardly bragging nor profess to even be that good at gaming. I usually cheated during my gaming years ever since getting a game genie and for a while preferred PC offline gaming since the cheating/file tweaking options were simpler and more prolific. I mostly did this to expedite my gaming so I would be done with the game faster and move on to another while, on the surface, seemingly experinceing the whole game.
In my current approach to gaming, I am no longer interesting in playing as many games as I used to. Also, I kind of want to try and 100% games without cheating. Even if there is no trophy for it, I will usually try if there is an in-game reward for it
Trophies usually go in tandem with 100%ing a file to a degree, but not entirely, and unless the game provides an in-game reward for doing so, I opt out. The reason being is that the trophies themselves are a good enough benchmark for me to reach and there is really no need to strive for utter perfection. Also, I've never really experience anyone caring one way or another about my trophy list, and its definitely not anything I care about. Most of my friends are non-gamers anyway.
I'm hardly bragging nor profess to even be that good at gaming. I usually cheated during my gaming years ever since getting a game genie and for a while preferred PC offline gaming since the cheating/file tweaking options were simpler and more prolific. I mostly did this to expedite my gaming so I would be done with the game faster and move on to another while, on the surface, seemingly experinceing the whole game.
In my current approach to gaming, I am no longer interesting in playing as many games as I used to. Also, I kind of want to try and 100% games without cheating. Even if there is no trophy for it, I will usually try if there is an in-game reward for it
Trophies usually go in tandem with 100%ing a file to a degree, but not entirely, and unless the game provides an in-game reward for doing so, I opt out. The reason being is that the trophies themselves are a good enough benchmark for me to reach and there is really no need to strive for utter perfection. Also, I've never really experience anyone caring one way or another about my trophy list, and its definitely not anything I care about. Most of my friends are non-gamers anyway.
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
I always considered this to be the opposite for Nintendo games. The gameplay stood for itself and it wasn't necessary. Interesting how I took it differently.
zenspider
Member
I think about more like kids who grew up with smartphone notifications and 'real name' social media, not necessarily gaming trends - but we can include could anyone gaming in the zeitgiest before XBox 360.
Basically, I think it's possible the generation who percieves their commodification and attention hijacking as the 'normal' state can't see the miasma.
In a way, it may be a good alternative to have one system without them. Either for those that are honestly bothered by them or dodging some egregious or mind-numbing trophy requirements of a game that's multiplatform. JRPGs tend to take the cake in this regard.
Jubenhimer
Member
Honestly, I don't give a shit if the Switch has achievements or not. I think their importance is overrated TBH. If Nintendo can find a unique way to impliment an achievement system on the Switch that distinguishes itself in a good way, that'd be great. But if not, then I don't care really.
gioGAF
Member
Count me on the "no to achievements" camp. Nintendo games are great as is, Achievements/Trophies are useless to me. They don't actually bring anything to the game, games can have in game achievements if they want (like Dragon Quest 11) for additional "fun".
As far as I'm concerned, the Achievements/Trophies systems on other systems serve no purpose other than to try and make you feel like you are too invested in one platform to go to a different one (I can't leave, otherwise I'll lose my gamerscore!).
As far as I'm concerned, the Achievements/Trophies systems on other systems serve no purpose other than to try and make you feel like you are too invested in one platform to go to a different one (I can't leave, otherwise I'll lose my gamerscore!).
Greedings
Member
I don't really understand what you mean. If you can turn off the pop-ups the achievements/trophies are completely ignorable.
Does it matter if they still occur if you don't interact with them in the slightest?
Akuza89
Member
I used to care for achievements and trophies, but now I could care less about them.
Keep them away from Nintendo games in my opinion, can't be bothered with them anymore and Nintendo don't need to follow suit.
Personally I think it changes how people enjoy a game, especially online, where it could encourage people to play unsportsman like or cheat in general.
Keep them away from Nintendo games in my opinion, can't be bothered with them anymore and Nintendo don't need to follow suit.
Personally I think it changes how people enjoy a game, especially online, where it could encourage people to play unsportsman like or cheat in general.
Last edited:
zenspider
Member
Yes.
Firstly, I can't turn them off, I can only turn off in-game notifications, so I'm still unwillingly participating - my friends load up their game and see my progress and 'highest' acheivement. Same goes for thier progress in my UX. Even if I set them to off and my profile to private - it's not a null expression: I'm private at you. Even then, I'm tallied in the percentage of people who got a trophy as soon as I connect to PSN.
My whole point here is that opting out isn't a null, cost-free choice, and ignorance less so.
I've elucidated the possible costs over the course of my posts in this thread if you don't mind going upstream.
Last edited:
juliotendo
Member
I agree. Nintendo first party games always seem to have a high level of polish and completion. I don’t think I’ve ever played a game from Nintendo that was shipped half-made or in a bad state. And they have consistently been doing this through the generations.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
So, despite the fact that you can personally set it to where you don't need to see achievements/trophies, the fact that your friends can annoys you? Get over it, mate.
Vawn
Banned
People who cheat in online games are not doing it because of trophies or achievements.
Last edited:
Vawn
Banned
You can hide your trophies from everyone too. He's just upset they are happening at all, even of not visible to himself or anyone else.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Osukaa
Member
Me too. Its actually the reason why I play most of my games on my PS4. I really want to get more games on my Switch but its always more value to me to have trophies/achievements. Portability isn't really what I use my switch for so that really hinders its benefit to me if I have to choose which system to buy a game on. To me its just fun to see how far you've gotten on a game or to compete with friends and brag about stupid things lol.