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Nintendo is always putting play first (Game Maker's Toolkit)

Tizoc

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Jun 23, 2010
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Thread title sounds rather 'click bait-y' :V
Should've mentioned that it's a Mark Brown/Gamer's Toolkit video in the thread title.

Still thanks for making the thread I was gonna make it myself soon :p
 

Hot Coldman

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Oct 1, 2009
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My favourite part about this was that point about the Mario Bros. remakes, which had somehow gone completely over my head.

I like that Mark, despite having a huge example of how putting play (or rather, a singular mechanic) first sometimes cripples a game (Star Fox Zero, obviously), doesn't give it more than a moment's mention, because ultimately this type of game design has infinitely more successes than failures under its belt.

I'm not sure Nintendo would ever make a game like Doom, though, even if it was bloodless and tamer - Doom takes that melee mechanic but it forces players to go all out with it. Nintendo (as mentioned in the video) tends to use that singular mechanic to explore new ideas and interactions, but Doom is more or less the same thing from beginning to end. It uses simplicity of interaction as a means for challenge and intensity first and foremost. But it's a good example of how putting play first still allows for a wide array of philosophical approaches to game design.
 
Jun 14, 2014
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make a bait-click thread :( if you mods want to change the title go ahead. I was excited because I loved the video but I don't know the guy behind the video in any sense ;/ so it was not pure Ads or paid ads.
 

Reki

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This channel is new to me, do they cover game's design? If so, they should have pretty interesting stuff, indeed. Can't watch now but I'll see it later.
 

Betty

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Nah don't worry about it, you wanted to share something and did, it's cool .

And yeah I like how Nintendo focus on things like this.
 

McNum

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This cannel is new to me, do they cover game's design? If so, they should have pretty interesting stuff, indeed. Can't watch now but I'll see it later.
Game Maker's Toolkit is interesting. He is pretty Nintendo focused, but when you're looking for obvious examples of game design, Nintendo games are pretty good to dissect.
 

Visualante2

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Oct 20, 2011
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what kind of pr nonsense is this
This is a 12 minute video and you replied within seconds. Mark Brown makes some really good videos. I don't know why he didn't bring up the crappy story book in Galaxy though. Pleasantly surprised Miyamoto played Portal. I really need to play Luigi's Mansion some day.
 

Opa-Pa

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This new video of his had completely flew under my radar, so thanks for sharing!

Super insightful stuff as usual. I disagree on some of the examples where Nintendo "had it wrong" (Skyward Sword and SF Zero are my favorite games of each console, haha), but overall it was very interesting. Was SMB really the first game to ever use jumping as your main mechanic to deal with enemies? It was so commonplace back in the day that I guess I never questioned it... Pretty impressive if true, although it wouldn't surprise me.

This channel is new to me, do they cover game's design? If so, they should have pretty interesting stuff, indeed. Can't watch now but I'll see it later.
Yeah, one of the best around too. I highly recommend Mark's content to anyone interested in game design appreciation.
 

Reki

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His Super Mario 3D World design video is a pretty good one to start with. Relates pretty heavily to Titanfall 2's campaign design too, really.
Game Maker's Toolkit is interesting. He is pretty Nintendo focused, but when you're looking for obvious examples of game design, Nintendo games are pretty good to dissect.
Yeah, one of the best around too. I highly recommend Mark's content to anyone interested in game design appreciation.
Now I'm sure I'll subscribe. Thanks for the responses!
 

Candescence

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Title could be better, but to be fair, as the video itself demonstrates, the title isn't wrong. It does go a long way towards explaining why Miyamoto said he didn't want to see a new F-Zero game made without something unique mechanically to diversity itself from its predecessors, you might as well just make GX HD otherwise. (Incidentally, GX HD would be amazing, but that's another topic entirely.)

This vid also is very enlightening when it comes to the dev processes of Nintendo's teams, and how they approach various aspects of a single game. It doesn't always work out, but every dev has their stumbling blocks, and we get fantastic stuff like Splatoon out of it, so...
 

EVH

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Mar 11, 2009
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make a bait-click thread :( if you mods want to change the title go ahead. I was excited because I loved the video but I don't know the guy behind the video in any sense ;/ so it was not pure Ads or paid ads.
Don't be sorry, the thread is good. I personally knew already this channel and love it. I recommend all his other videos, specially the one based on level design in 3D action games like uncharted and mirrors edge or the Mario 3D World video.

I like a lot the Nintendo way of doing games, but sometimes it ends up lacking a layer of deep in story or mechanics. I would also love to see Nintendo making a cinematic experience like Uncharted or Last of us just to really see what they can do in that way. Zelda is close, but usually they also are not so cinematic or story intensive.

Still, the video is fantastic and really shows you Nintendo's philosophy in designing a game, whether you like it or not.
 

Jim_Cacher

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Sep 7, 2014
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Thanks for the heads-up. I really like the video and this guy's channel.

Off-topic: he single-handedly sells me Hitman 2016 with his video.

Title could be better, but to be fair, as the video itself demonstrates, the title isn't wrong. It does go a long way towards explaining why Miyamoto said he didn't want to see a new F-Zero game made without something unique mechanically to diversity itself from its predecessors, you might as well just make GX HD otherwise. (Incidentally, GX HD would be amazing, but that's another topic entirely.
I remember how people were freaking out about Miyamoto's quote on a new F-Zero. Now after watching the video, the quote does make sense. I hope Nintendo did find something out so that they can further develop future F-Zero games on Switch.
 

Yoshi

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Great video aagain. And I agree he's Nintendo focussed, but when talking about good game design from an angle where gameplay is the one thing that guides all of game design, Nintendo is basically the big studio to foster that. Since this is a channel about the mechanical side of game design, it seems rather natural to me. And it is not even unfair, if you take a look at how companies communicate about games, they are actually usually talking very differently about them when compared to Nintendo. Even though there are of course many other games taht get developed out of a similar mindset. Loco Roco and Portal are examples I like to mention which are not available on Nintendo systems, but the same goes for Sonic and traditional classic arcade games (so a lot of Sega's back catalogue), really.
 

correojon

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Jul 25, 2014
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This new video of his had completely flew under my radar, so thanks for sharing!

Super insightful stuff as usual. I disagree on some of the examples where Nintendo "had it wrong" (Skyward Sword and SF Zero are my favorite games of each console, haha), but overall it was very interesting. Was SMB really the first game to ever use jumping as your main mechanic to deal with enemies? It was so commonplace back in the day that I guess I never questioned it... Pretty impressive if true, although it wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, one of the best around too. I highly recommend Mark's content to anyone interested in game design appreciation.
I didn´t know this either, though I remember Miyamoto talking long about the Mario jump, how they designed it so when you move up it´s an exploration mechanic, like reaching for new places or activating question blocks to see what comes out of them, but when it goes down it becomes an action mechanic to deal with enemies. It was enlightnening to see something so simple we take for granted had so much thought behind it.

I love Mark´s videos, can´t watch now but I´ll save it for later. Thanks for letting us know OP!
 

Venfayth

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They focus on a core gameplay mechanic and extrapolate that out to the rest of the game. It's smart, it works well, I just wish people wouldn't talk to me about Nintendo as if I'm a 9 year old.
 

Sölf

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I didn't know that channel before, but this video and the other linked one in this thread are pretty interesting. They just gained one more subscriber!
 

correojon

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They focus on a core gameplay mechanic and extrapolate that out to the rest of the game. It's smart, it works well, I just wish people wouldn't talk to me about Nintendo as if I'm a 9 year old.
This! I hate being looked down because I love Nintendo games for their awesome gameplay-focused design...but it specially irks me when the ones doing it aren´t capable of looking deeper into their favorite games past their graphical prowess.
 

The Albatross

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Nintendo is always putting play first?

Tell that to me and my mother who are desperately trying to find an NES Classic for my sister (38) and father (65) for Christmas this year, it's really the only gift they want... And I'm sure many of you know how hard it is to shop for people who have everything. Every website is sold out, every store is sold out, listings will go up for 10 seconds and then be gone. Neither my sister nor my father, who don't follow the videogame industry, understand that Nintendo has an antiquated business model driven on driving up demand by screwing people around Christmas. Nintendo did this 30 years ago with the SNES, and despite nearly losing that generation because of undershipments and unfulfilling orders, they still do it today.

Sorry been up for an hour at 6am trying to get this $60 Raspberry Pi. Fuck Nintendo.
 

goldenpp72

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Thanks for the heads-up. I really like the video and this guy's channel.

Off-topic: he single-handedly sells me Hitman 2016 with his video.



I remember how people were freaking out about Miyamoto's quote on a new F-Zero. Now after watching the video, the quote does make sense. I hope Nintendo did find something out so that they can further develop future F-Zero games on Switch.
It makes sense until you consider the NSMB series anyways, which wasn't exactly bustling with new ideas as it progressed. I'm not saying the entire series was devoid of anything interesting or new but, they didn't innovate mechanically, musically or visually much from first to last, especially after Wii.
 

daakusedo

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The thing with doom is that when you understand how it works, glory kills become a rarity barring the few times when you chainsaw for ammos.
 

Kouichi

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Great video! This describes perfectly what I love so much about Nintendo and other game developers with similar design philosophies. Games that focus on play first have always been my favorite.
 

magawolaz

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Great video. Although the Uncharted bit was silly, Naughty Dog always said they start from set-pieces/gameplay mechanics and build the story around them. (And they are pretty successful lol)
 

rewkol

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This really exemplifies why I have always loved Nintendo. Though this process sometimes does not work as Mark Brown pointed out, and even if I would love an F-Zero sequel, the majority of the time I come out of a Nintendo game entirely excited about playing it, not experiencing the story, just to interact with the world. I still go back to Sunshine just to run around and play in that playground of a game.

You can even see this in Breath of the Wild. The systems driven world is no accident and is probably the thing I am most excited to discover when the game releases: the extent to which the player can interact with the world and how that shapes the story.
 

Poimandres

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Nintendo games are pretty interesting and unique. They really do put an emphasis on playability, but then you get downright annoying things occurring regularly in their games like not being able to change audio levels. You know, the kind of stuff that's been common in games for 25 years.

It's fresh on my mind because I was playing Mario Kart 8 this eve and it's a fantastic game but I'd love to be able to appreciate the music without constant terrible sfx drowning it out.
 

Sword Of Doom

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I love how they prioritize 60fps. I hope they never move away from that like Insomniac did.

I've really wanted to jump back into Splatoon lately. That game is so good and I never finished the campaign. The MP was just too much fun


I think it's difficult to have any sort of appreciation or interest in game design and not hugely respect Nintendo.

I say difficult not impossible because some people go to great lengths to hate nintendo.
I do appreciate them the most when they make something like Splatoon or Super Mario Maker. I wish they did more of that and less of going back to well
 

LordRaptor

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I think it's difficult to have any sort of appreciation or interest in game design and not hugely respect Nintendo.

I say difficult not impossible because some people go to great lengths to hate nintendo.
 

redcrayon

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The SMB bit about jumping being required for everything from movement to acquiring power-ups, dealing with enemies and finishing the level was interesting, and I think Splatoon is a good modern example too, with ink being used for traversal, claiming territory and attacking. I think another modern example of a mechanic that runs through a whole Nintendo game (rather than being a gimmick) is Zelda: Link Between Worlds.

Turning into a painting lets you:
Shift between worlds
Traverse gaps
Walk around to the back of buildings (you can't otherwise shift the perspective)
Enter cracks in buildings
Hide from attacks on flat surfaces
Hide from enemies on flat surfaces
Solve puzzles (often by sticking to a moving surface with no floor)
Push items off the walls
Collect items rendered as paintings (rupees, hearts).
Etc etc.

It's something that runs through the entire game, with even the final battle using it in yet another way. Elegant, a one-button-command used for so many things, playful and fundamental to the game. That's the example that has stuck with me since I played it, anyway.
 

Jim_Cacher

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It makes sense until you consider the NSMB series anyways, which wasn't exactly bustling with new ideas as it progressed. I'm not saying the entire series was devoid of anything interesting or new but, they didn't innovate mechanically, musically or visually much from first to last, especially after Wii.
Well, sales are also be considered when deciding which games to make. Mario is definitely no-brainer compared with F-Zero. I do agree that the formula of NSMB games need some shake-ups especially after Mario Maker. Hopefully Nintendo will think this over before developing another 2D Mario entry.
 

Blobbers

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Only watched a minute but this video already speaks so much to me

I had a falling out with my friend Jackson the other day because he was going on about how he wasn't excited for the new Zelda and I just flat out told him that he didn't really like nor appreciate games. How can you not be excited about a game that puts play and emergent gameplay first.
He was trying to convince me that I shouldn't judge him if he likes Uncharted, Gone Home, Journey, The Walking Dead. It just means he has different tastes than me. Before I stormed out of his apartment, I left him with a final word: "You don't appreciate play, you appreciate experiences"

I admit it. I feel a sense of superiority over people who like games that don't put play first, and it's also the reason I think Nintendo's WORTH to this industry is much more than any other companies that might or might not also make consoles. I know it doesn't have much to do with the video, but I just wanted to share my unique perspective that nobody on GAF shares.
 

UncleSporky

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Nintendo is always putting play first?

Tell that to me and my mother who are desperately trying to find an NES Classic for my sister (38) and father (65) for Christmas this year, it's really the only gift they want... And I'm sure many of you know how hard it is to shop for people who have everything. Every website is sold out, every store is sold out, listings will go up for 10 seconds and then be gone. Neither my sister nor my father, who don't follow the videogame industry, understand that Nintendo has an antiquated business model driven on driving up demand by screwing people around Christmas. Nintendo did this 30 years ago with the SNES, and despite nearly losing that generation because of undershipments and unfulfilling orders, they still do it today.

Sorry been up for an hour at 6am trying to get this $60 Raspberry Pi. Fuck Nintendo.
I don't think you watched/understand the core premise of the video. It is more about game design and doesn't really touch on physical availability of items.