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Nintendo NX – let's try to understand about the power possibilities

BDGAME

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Mar 10, 2005
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Ok, I will help:

- The power unit for the Wii U can handle up to 75W, but IIRC, it often runs at less than 40W

- The PSVITA is not at 51 GFLOPS because it GPU is underclocked. It is more like 27 GFLOPs

- The parts about X1's wattage is off. If you want to display some good info about the power consumption vs clockspeed of Tegra, I would reference you to use Thraktor's posts on that topic.

- Comparing shader cores and TFLOPS of different architectures can't really be done one-to-one due to several factors. I believe general consensuses is that Nvidia's performance can be around 30% better than AMD's GPU at same "listed" TFLOPS, but it's more complicated than that. I would recommend reading the discussions about them in the other threads. They are very educational. I will try to find them later when I have the time.

- FP16 can be used for gaming, though it wouldn't look so well if you exclusively used it for a console display. UE4 just uses FP16 for mobile hardware, so using both fp16 and fp32 will be beneficial if the NX is using Tegra hardware.

The memory system of the XB1 and Wii U are a bit more complicated than what you described.

I'm sure I missed more, but I hope that helps. :) Most of what you said during the second half of the post appears to be speculation.

Thanks.
I already ajust the fixed information you give me. Later I will look the others informational you told me to try to fax everything.
 

EhoaVash

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Aug 20, 2012
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Its going to be a game changer for some of their handheld only games like Pokemon
( Pokemon. HD :eek: but lol how will gamefreak handle the switch to HD development to make a fully realized 3d game with 360 camera )

But I'm worried about how different will the next entry in their games they released on Wii u like mario kart 8/smash bros etc will look like on nx. not sure how much difference tegra x1 can make to make Mario kart 9 to look significantly better if we're on by the spec rumors which makes me sad that we won't see the next jump in graphics with Nintendo franchises that were released on Wii u. Sure they might get bump in resolution or framerate but hell man, I wanted to see Mario kart finally with ps4 level textures and with perfect IQ and anti aliasing :(
 

BDGAME

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I always hate nitpicking, but this section would benefit from an edit: the A9X in the iPad Pro definitely doesn't consume 35W - it's beneath 5 watts like Intel's Core M (also fanless).

Wii U definitely consumes less than 75 watts in usage - it's closer to 35 watts playing games.

Otherwise I like the array of information collated here, good stuff!
Thanks. Please nitpicking!
I already ajust the Wii U wattage. But that 5 watts in iPad is the entire hardware or GPU only?
 

BDGAME

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There were benchmarks in the eurogamer rumor thread that pinned Jaguar to ~1000 points and A57 cores at over 1500, obviously not every benchmark would be the same but it showed that A57 can indeed be much faster than Jaguar, and A72 is noticeably faster than A57 while using less power and can be done on 16nm without needing to shrink a chip.



http://www.anandtech.com/show/8811/nvidia-tegra-x1-preview/3

"NVIDIA’s tools show the X1’s GPU averages 1.51W over the run of Manhattan. Meanwhile the A8X’s GPU averages 2.67W, over a watt more for otherwise equal performance. This test is especially notable since both SoCs are manufactured on the same TSMC 20nm SoC process."

The A8X is 230GFLOPs, or about half of X1's performance, so that is where the 1.5watts for "256gflops" comes from (half of X1's maxwell normal performance, or 500mhz vs 1ghz)

Remember that 16nm and Pascal see large deductions, and even without Pascal, 300gflops for ~1.5watts seems within reach of maxwell.

Thanks. Is there any test with 800 MHz?
 

Xenoblade

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Jun 18, 2015
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RX 480 is a 5.8 Tflops GPU that performs worse on average than the GTX 1060, which is a 4.3 Tflops GPU. It isn't inaccurate. PS4's 1.843 TFLOPs is also beat by the GTX 750ti which is a 1.39 TFLOPs GPU.

The performance inconsistency that you are referring to has absolutely nothing to do with FLOPS.
 

orioto

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Mar 10, 2005
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Its going to be a game changer for some of their handheld only games like Pokemon
( Pokemon. HD :eek: but lol how will gamefreak handle the switch to HD development to make a fully realized 3d game with 360 camera )

But I'm worried about how different will the next entry in their games they released on Wii u like mario kart 8/smash bros etc will look like on nx. not sure how much difference tegra x1 can make to make Mario kart 9 to look significantly better if we're on by the spec rumors which makes me sad that we won't see the next jump in graphics with Nintendo franchises that were released on Wii u. Sure they might get bump in resolution or framerate but hell man, I wanted to see Mario kart finally with ps4 level textures and with perfect IQ and anti aliasing :(

In best case scenario we're talking 4-500gflop displayed on 540p versus 170gflops displayed on 720p. I guess there is margin for some graphical difference. A pretty big one.
 

Schnozberry

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Nov 9, 2012
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The performance inconsistency that you are referring to has absolutely nothing to do with FLOPS.

No, but it is a function of architecture and API. In recent years, Nvidia has shown an ability to extract more performance from their hardware. Presumably, Nvidia would be assisting Nintendo with writing the API for NX, much like AMD assisted Microsoft and Sony with their tools.
 

z0m3le

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The performance inconsistency that you are referring to has absolutely nothing to do with FLOPS.

It does, in fact, if you overclock the RX 480 to 1.4ghz, they match up, of course you turn that 5.8tflops card to 6.4tflops. If you have anything to refute this, maybe a link to some sort of article where it is explained that it isn't the processing power of the GPU that is equalizing here and some other bottleneck, because we can find this performance valley across all GCN cards vs the last 3+ Nvidia architectures.

No, but it is a function of architecture and API. In recent years, Nvidia has shown an ability to extract more performance from their hardware. Presumably, Nvidia would be assisting Nintendo with writing the API for NX, much like AMD assisted Microsoft and Sony with their tools.

Something you are forgetting is that these are max theoretical floating point performances. It is also because Nvidia architectures on average reach closer to their theoretical performances more often AMD, enough to notice even more than 40% difference in their performance as we see with GTX 1060 over RX 480.
 

MisterHero

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Jul 24, 2007
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With new hardware iterations being a thing now, how possible is it that Nintendo could sell updated console docks? It'd sidestep the costs of buying a whole new console if it worked that way.
 

ZAMtendo

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What I'm hoping is that the NX is upgradeable like that patent that was dug up. And I'm hoping this means it will also be able to use a new Tegra in future.
 

shouamabane

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With new hardware iterations being a thing now, how possible is it that Nintendo could sell updated console docks? It'd sidestep the costs of buying a whole new console if it worked that way.

I'd bet on the handheld portion being iterated on. Nintendo has done handheld iterations every 18 months or so for a long time now.
 

BDGAME

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What I'm hoping is that the NX is upgradeable like that patent that was dug up. And I'm hoping this means it will also be able to use a new Tegra in future.

I don't believe that the Dock will help in increase the power.

If the Tegra on NX is really a pascal, it will consume a low amount to be able to run at full in the portable.
 

sfried

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Apr 25, 2009
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Talking about power in a Nintendo console is pointless considering Nintendo goes out of their way to make you not care about it.
Well, is the whole Tegra deal is indeed true, why not let them speculate? It's quite a powerful chip after all.

I'm more curious as to how the Jen-Hsun Huang speach is going to pan out...
 

killatopak

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I hope Nintendo is planning on releasing NX1.5 cause I don't like how weak the system is compared to the 2 others.
 

anothertech

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Smartphones are running 1080 native res screens. Don't know why Nintendos handheld wouldn't do the same.
 

KojiKnight

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I don't know what kind of smartphone you're running that's sub $200 that has that kind of resolution.

I mean... I just bought a zte zmax pro that's 1080p for 99.... Not that I'd expect games to run anywhere near native on it.
 

yanipheonu

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All these numbers literally make my heard hurt.
I am now glad I chose English instead of Computer Science.

Can it play the game good tho?
 

Jonneh3003

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I imagine system temperature will play a large part, my phone gets so hot playing Pokemon Go and I don't think Nintendo would allow that in one of their handhelds.
 

Izayoi

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I imagine system temperature will play a large part, my phone gets so hot playing Pokemon Go and I don't think Nintendo would allow that in one of their handhelds.
Why not? A high TDP is going to be necessary if they want to push those pixels. If rumors about the development kits being actively cooled are true, I wouldn't be surprised to see this thing get real nice and warm.
 

LiquidSolid

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Vulkan – the DirectX 12 for NX



Anybody remember how MS is telling the advantages of DirectX 12 will bring to Xbox One? Things like lower CPU overhead and more advanced GPU features, what can improve the overall performance of the console.

Of course NX will not use DX 12, but it will use the direct competitor of that API: The Vulkan. How can we know that? Because Nintendo joins the group that is creating the Vulkan.

You can know more of that API here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvioALNs_Bc

I skimmed through the OP and had a few issues that have mostly been mentioned but this part stuck out to me because it smells like the "PS4 uses OpenGL" rubbish we heard before the PS4 launch. Joining the Khronos Group was a good move by Nintendo but it doesn't automatically mean they're going to use Vulcan, there are other reasons to join it and be involved as well. Just wait and see what APIs they end up using.
 

Peterc

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May 15, 2015
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How strong is the samsung s7 or iphone 6s compared to tegra x1 ?

Some suggest that nintendo would be a mobile system. I don't believe this because nobody is going to carry 2 phones with them.

List of all devices

GPU/CPU

http://kyokojap.myweb.hinet.net/gpu_gflops/


Found it samsung s7

Mali-T880 MP12 Exynos 8890 650 MHz 265.2


Looks a bit strange that a phone like this cost about 799$ and this tegra x1 has the double gflops but would maybe only cost about 200$
 

geordiemp

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People will hate it anyway just because it's a weak Nintendo console.

Fixed that for you. People dont hate Pokemon Go, that is played by more than 1 or 2 lol....3DS sold about 60 million or whatever.

The Nintendo Home consoles of late is a different story. where in the west many want to play on large TV's and like shiny graphics and large X play parties.

This may change, but who knows. Nintendo not leading in portable, handheld and Home console does not equate to hate.
 

Peterc

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Maybe this time nintendo's handheld is strong and somehow they made a good deal with nvidea. So they can manufacture the nx cheap.

Think about it, psvita was only 51.2gflops and 3ds even 4.8 gflops

So going from that to 500glops or more would be a big jump for them.

While having this handheld, we could wait on the console, but that could take another 4y's because of ps4 neo.
 
Sep 5, 2011
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Looks a bit strange that a phone like this cost about 799$ and this tegra x1 has the double gflops but would maybe only cost about 200$

There's more to the price than just the CPU and GPU. The high-resolution SAMOLED screen, cellular radios, biometric scanner, high-quality imaging sensors, high-quality build materials, and so on really add to the cost of the Galaxy S7.
 

Instro

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There's more to the price than just the CPU and GPU. The high-resolution SAMOLED screen, cellular radios, biometric scanner, high-quality imaging sensors, high-quality build materials, and so on really add to the cost of the Galaxy S7.

Well that, and they are sold at a substantial markup.
 

ozfunghi

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Jun 19, 2010
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There's more to the price than just the CPU and GPU. The high-resolution SAMOLED screen, cellular radios, biometric scanner, high-quality imaging sensors, high-quality build materials, and so on really add to the cost of the Galaxy S7.

There are phones that have all (or most of) that as well and are sold for $160. Though the sensor, screen and the SOC is a step down in, say, the RedMi Note 3 Pro Prime, yet in no way, does that account for a x4 or x5 multiplier. You will find other phones with very similar specs, for roughly half price compared to an S7.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood
Jul 28, 2011
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OP another error you made is that 540p is 960x540 hence 1080p has exactly 4x the pixels.

In my opinion 540p for a tablet is really too low especially if nintendo is aiming to catch mobile gamers, i know that nintendo is cheap but one thing is a handheld another is a tablet, also a tablet isn't really portable, 7 inches should be the max imo.
 
Sep 5, 2011
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Well that, and they are sold at a substantial markup.

Well of course. And to add to it, mobile phone manufacturers have a different profit structure than Nintendo would for manufacturing a console (no revenue from software vs. being able to trim down profits on hardware to recover in software sales).

There are phones that have all (or most of) that as well and are sold for $160. Though the sensor, screen and the SOC is a step down in, say, the RedMi Note 3 Pro Prime, yet in no way, does that account for a x4 or x5 multiplier. You will find other phones with very similar specs, for roughly half price compared to an S7.

The phones aren't really comparable, although they may seem that way on the surface. The memory setup is quite different between the phones. The Redmi Note 3 Prime Pro only has 3GB of LPDDR3, while both versions (Exynos and Snapdragon) of the Galaxy S7 have 4GB of LPDDR4. The Galaxy S7 also has IP68 water an dust sealing, whilst the Redmi has none. And the $799 price quoted isn't really accurate. The price for a baseline unlocked GSM Galaxy S7 is $619 at Best Buy, whilst the baseline Galaxy S7 Edge unlocked is $749 at the same retailer.

Of course, Nintendo is likely not going to go with premium materials, which should significantly bring the price down. The hardware setup, however, is an unknown. Memory type and capacity is certainly going to affect the BOM of the NX, as is the quality and capacity of the flash memory. Both of these will also impact the performance of the chip they end up receiving from Nvidia, so I don't expect them to go too cheap. They'll likely strike a balance between cost and performance. What that balance is is anyone's guess.
 

Negotiator

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It won't use only FP32. It's not as simple as FP16 not being precise enough for games. PS3 developers used FP16 whenever possible, to get every last drop of performance they could out of it. Mobile games use it whenever possible too.
Source?

Does the RSX (GeForce 7) support mixed precision (like Pascal)? Did ND/ICE Team use it?
 

jdstorm

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Most likely Nintendo will offer 2 versions of the NX at launch just like the 3DS. One will likely have a smaller 540p Screen while a larger more expensive version will likely have the higher resolution screen that some are craving
 
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Unless Nintendo really screw up then it looks like they'll have the shrinking handhold market to themselves. I can't see Microsoft or Sony willing to goto war in the space here ever again.

That's not to say that Nintendo will have it all their own way. Their target market demographic is heavily into mobile and tablet gaming where people just aren't used to paying console type prices for software.

I see it that Nintendo have limited options here. They can launch the system at a very aggressive low price point (way below £200/$200/€200) with a full line up of killer apps to try and persuade people to pay for premium quality. An alternative is to exploit the freemium model that's worked well with Pokémon Go to try and milk the user base with micro transactions and add ons (Amiibos et al).

My guess is that they'll try both. There's no way Nintendo will launch without some heavyweights. They must have learned that lesson from the Wii U a million times over in retrospectives. How can they not have? Amiibos have been a great revenue stream for Nintendo while the software side has been lacking. Pokémon Go type micro transactions are easily stomached by the mobile crowd that they're trying to attract.

For me it's less about the system power and more about how much will Nintendo compromise their game designs. Shoe horning in mobile type micro transactions and pay gates to keep shareholders happy. I want to play great Nintendo games. Not mobile skinner boxes with Nintendo characters. From how Mario Sticker Star turned out I don't have much faith in Nintendo doing the right thing any more.

I'm interested in the NX but I won't be blindy buying day one. I'd like to see the dust settle a little first.
 

heidern

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Jun 7, 2004
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In my opinion 540p for a tablet is really too low especially if nintendo is aiming to catch mobile gamers, i know that nintendo is cheap but one thing is a handheld another is a tablet, also a tablet isn't really portable, 7 inches should be the max imo.

Do you think 540p is too low for a 6.2 inch screen?
 
Jun 19, 2013
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Do you think 540p is too low for a 6.2 inch screen?

Yes. It should be 720p or higher once you get to 6". Not just in terms of pixels per inch but also for the console-style experiences that a chunk of the NX's games library will cater to.

Breath of the Wild at 540p is going to be a compromise over the Wii U version which runs at 720p, and will be a poor show when the inevitable comparisons between formats rolls in.

And going off the Vita and Wii U, I'm not going to place faith in developers to redesign their interfaces for 540p, which will lead to a lot of small UI elements and tiny text, both of which also look worse in lower resolutions. Anyone who has tried to play Xenoblade X off the Wii U GamePad can vouch for this, but also there are plenty of Vita games which just shrink down the console interface 1:1 from 1080p to 544p or 720p to 544p with no consideration for the difference in resolution and screen size.

So to avoid this Nintendo should ideally go for as large display as possible for the form factor, and make sure it's at least going to match the resolution of the TV output. Since the two sides of the NX come off to form individual controllers, the NX itself will have to be a certain height, so the screen will have to be much larger than 6" for the idea to be practical. Otherwise you end up with a huge device with massive, fat bezels around the screen like the Wii U GamePad. Gross.