• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Nintendo wants the "hardcore" gamer back. How did they lose them in the first place?

bgassassin

Member
Sep 8, 2006
8,188
0
0
Since it has been reported to us that Nintendo is trying to recapture this supposed market, I thought that we should look back at and discuss what caused Nintendo to get away from them to begin with.

Nintendo 64

  • Choice of system format
  • Hard to develop for
  • High licensing fees

When I look at how Nintendo is currently viewed by some, I liken that view to the child game "Telephone". You remember it, where someone says something and it's different by the time it reaches the last person. Nintendo has become the "non-hardcore" console maker, but that direction did not happen intentionally IMO.

First was the choice of sticking with cartridges instead of CDs. Loading time is great, but the limitations of cartridges in both cost and space clearly outweighed the benefit of the cartridge format. Next was that despite the power of the console, it was considered hard to develop for due to the implementation of the hardware. And finally was the cost of developing for the console. By this time Nintendo had become real bad about the licensing fees they charged to developers.

In the past Yamauchi's Iron Fist would have maintained control, but Sony gave third parties a place that allowed them to get away from those negatives. It is this migration that I believe Nintendo established the stigma that only Nintendo games can sell on Nintendo consoles. Simply from third parties choosing to release their games elsewhere.

Gamecube

  • Console design
  • Format limitations
  • Pursuit of simpler gaming

This could have been the generation Nintendo used to get itself back on track with third parties, but instead found more ways to alienate them. It's at this time that Nintendo gained the "kiddie" label. Why? Mainly because of its design. It definitely was not due to power because the GC was clearly the second most powerful console that generation. However they go with a design that gets called things like a lunch box or a purse. Why would certain gamers want to buy a console that looked like that? And from there why would developers want to release their games (especially mature games) on a console their target market will not buy due to its look? Which leads into the format limitations.

Once again Nintendo decides to against the grain and choose a disc format that limits them. While Sony and their older PS2 and console upstart MS with the Xbox have adopted the DVD format, Nintendo instead goes with miniature discs that provide roughly 1/3 of the space. Developers were not going to be as willing to spread their game of multiple discs when they could just place it on one. Nintendo has shown in recent history their tendencies of being overprotective. And since this was done for piracy concerns, this seemed to be a beginning point for their extreme cautiousness to come.

Then there is Nintendo's new found pursuit of easier gaming. Nintendo wanted games that anybody can play. Third party developers however are not making their games to sell to everybody. This change in gaming philosophy also lead in part to the design of the GC's controller. After all who all remembers this mock up? (Couldn't find one without Revolution on it.)



There are those who didn't like the GC controller for various reasons. Generally speaking the button layout compared to the other consoles was not as practical.

It is at this time that we start to see a difference in gaming philosophy between Nintendo and third parties. Nintendo began to put more emphasis on their family first mantra, while other developers wanted to continue to focus on the games that had grew up on their games. The disc format was merely icing on the cake.

Wii

  • Extreme focus on non-gamer/casual market
  • Very weak hardware compared to competitors
  • Storage limitations
  • Friend codes

By this time Nintendo committed to not trying to run with Sony and MS, and went in an entirely different direction. They sought out to tap a market that was not really even considered. While they were very successful in this approach, the steps taken to get there was just another nail in the coffin for third party relations. This continued the trend in the difference of philosophy. The gamers Nintendo were pursuing just were not the gamers third parties wanted for most of their games. This new direction was a major factor in Nintendo's choice of hardware.

There was really no need to have a very powerful console if the intention is to make short, simple games that anyone can just jump on and play. But Nintendo took this way farther than they really should have. The Wii was virtually the same level as the first Xbox. For better of for worse (worse for devs who lost lots of money and closed their doors or were bought out) developers wanted to take their games to the next level graphically. Not only did this mean texturally high-powered graphics, but the first run at legitimate HD gaming. Nintendo decided to have none of that. The console was so poorly powered in comparison that legitimate ports were not completely possible. The gamers that wanted those high-level gaming graphics just were not going to find that on the Wii giving them no reason to buy.

As always Nintendo found a way to hurt themselves when it came to formats, this time for saving information. The console used a minuscule amount of internal space and relegated external storage to SD cards. This decision really just screams Nintendo being overprotective again. Their concerns about privacy made them reluctant to use HDDs and instead use SD cards. From a consumer standpoint there are not many legitimate pros to using SD cards over HDD.

If you did not know by now, Nintendo is overprotective. Friend codes are just another part of that. First I give lots of credit to MS for their achievement of online gaming for consoles. Nintendo on the other hand being too concerned about child predators brought over the use of friend codes from the DS to the Wii. Other than the use of the codes themselves, have a code for every game just made them even more painstaking. Why would gamers in general want to embrace that? Especially when there are much better alternatives available.


So now we are at the present. Nintendo has announced they are releasing a new console and rumors indicate that they want to get this market back. As we can see this is something that has been going on for years and developers who choose to have every right to take a "sit back and watch" position. Even though Nintendo has been good about adjusting from previous mistakes, they tend to be slow about doing so. Based on Nintendo's trends in recent history, I would almost be left to believe it would take the generation after this one for them to get it right. But stranger things have happened. After all few, if any, coming into this generation expected Sony and MS to bleed the money they did. That aside Nintendo to me has two major things they need to fix.

  1. Stop being so overprotective.
  2. Stop being so hardcore (pun intended) about easier gaming/family appeal.

The first point is the foundational problem IMO for a lot of their mistakes. Stop hurting yourselves over piracy concerns that cause you to make bad format choices. Stop with the strict concern about who people game with online. I understand this world will always have sick perverts out there, but without even considering that do little kids really need to be gaming online when the games are going to be dominated by those who are teenagers and up? I do not and parent controls to prevent that and other things should be adequate.

Secondly no more toyish console designs, and ease up on the desire for everyone being able to play games. Nintendo went to extremes to achieve the latter and are going though a rubber band effect from that decision. Hopefully they will achieve better balance in that this time around.

My sleepy rant is over. I apologize for any grammatical errors I missed. Point out anything I missed that also contributed to Nintendo's current situation.
 

Jarmel

Banned
Mar 3, 2010
43,435
1
0
Both the N64 and Gamecube had some very hardcore games. Now if you want to talk about 3rd party developers, that's a separate issue.
 

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
Jun 12, 2004
7,930
5
0
44
Nintendo did not lose the hardcore gamer. The hardcore gamer lost Nintendo.
 

watershed

Banned
Mar 12, 2011
19,593
0
0
First, I want to predict that this thread will not end well. The OP creator is a reasonable poster and the OP is very detailed but seriously these threads never stay reasonable.

Second, I think people overestimate/over-value the rumor that Nintendo is trying to "recapture the hardcore" with the cafe. I predict Nintendo will try to appeal to the same crowd as they did with the Wii but with better 3rd party support to fill out the game library and get some more "hardcore" games on the console. I think it will be the what the 3ds is to the ds.
 

miksar

Member
Jun 14, 2009
1,261
0
0
Moscow, Russia
If you are speaking about hardcore, Nintendo never lost them. If you are speaking about CoD crowd, Nintendo never had them, it was Sega -> Sony -> Microsoft.
 
Feb 8, 2010
4,198
0
0
so
Pretty much the PlayStation. Lots of third party franchices moved to that place while the N64 was stuck with Nintendo exclusives and poor third party support.


*Everyone has their own definition when it comes to hardcore.
 

SnakeXs

about the same metal capacity as a cucumber
Dec 20, 2005
17,215
1
0
35
New York City
Missing the online boat, not even knowing what the social interactions boat is, dropping the ball on third party relations, not being cutting edge, being super lax with software, reworked image that sacrificed "us" for "them" and outside of console land having unheard of success with the DS.
 

norinrad

Member
Aug 13, 2009
7,551
14
895
I think Nintendo is talking about teenagers on the high school played ground. They still have most of their fans from the early years.
 

Chiggs

Gold Member
Jan 20, 2005
14,557
5,720
1,855
If Project Cafe isn't the most hardcore codename ever, then I don't know what is.
 

Gomu Gomu

Member
Jul 16, 2008
8,290
0
0
miksar said:
If you are speaking about hardcore, Nintendo never lost them. If you are speaking about CoD crowd, Nintendo never had them, it was Sega -> Sony -> Microsoft.
Pretty much. I only know these two kinds of people: Gamers who played Nintendo games, and still play Nintendo games. And Gamers who never played their games, and still don't play their games.

Nintendo never had those gamers in the first place. However they are trying to have them with Project Cafe. And I believe there are 2 ways of doing so: First you change the way you make your games. Or you bring strong 3rd party support to make their best games on your console.

And since Iwata pretty much said they is no way they'll change how they make Nintendo games, I expect it'll be the latter approach.
 

MYE

Member
Jul 20, 2009
16,499
4
0
Jarmel said:
Both the N64 and Gamecube had some very hardcore games. Now if you want to talk about 3rd party developers, that's a separate issue.

And the Wii doesnt?

Ugh, these threads...
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Mar 15, 2007
15,427
4,268
1,740
I agree that Nintendo started building the image they have now with the N64. I am not saying the N64 wasn't hardcore, but the Super Nintendo was the last console Nintendo made that appealed to my tastes.
 

dani_dc

Member
Dec 5, 2008
7,499
0
1,015
The definition of "hardcore" swifted from last gen to this one. So as some have stated Nintendo never really had the base that is now refered to as "hardcore".
 

swerve

Member
Sep 14, 2006
2,502
0
0
miksar said:
If you are speaking about hardcore, Nintendo never lost them. If you are speaking about CoD crowd, Nintendo never had them, it was Sega -> Sony -> Microsoft.

So right.

Also ConsolesAreForKiddiesIGameOnPC -> Microsoft.
 

Tron 2.0

Member
Jun 19, 2007
3,329
0
0
Nintendo has always done what it thought was best for Nintendo, with little regard for anyone else.

Sometimes it works out spectacularly, and sometimes it doesn't.

Developers like the path of least resistance. Nintendo doesn't offer that.

General Shank-a-snatch said:
Can we get a general concencus on what hardcore is in the thread's subject before people start ripping eachother's hair out?
Herding cats.
 

Chiggs

Gold Member
Jan 20, 2005
14,557
5,720
1,855
General Shank-a-snatch said:
Can we get a general concencus on what hardcore is in the thread's subject before people start ripping eachother's hair out?

Low self esteem. Basement. Awkward. Cynical. Whiny. Poor diet.
 

jump_button

Banned
Dec 24, 2007
5,097
0
0
I hate so call Hardcore or anyone that call them self Elite gamers all they cure about is being any asshole and shooting things, they don't cure about the art of games

Nintendo cant win the so call hardcore look at Mario and just call it kiddie, if you cant act like an ass hole they don't cure

I think this gen they only fuck up by not having mush power in the Wii they would had run away with this gen if they did, but now we seeing slow down and the next one already
 

Demathe

Neo Member
Nov 6, 2010
71
0
0
For me personally, Nintendo consoles are all about the Nintendo franchises. And in that sense, they've never failed me.

N64
- Mario 64
- Ocarina of Time
- Mario Kart 64
- Star Fox 64
- Smash Bros

GC
- Mario Sunshine
- Wind Waker
- Pikmin
- Mario Kart DD
- Metroid Prime
- Smash Bros Melee

WII
- Mario Galaxy 1&2
- Twilight Princess
- Mario Kart Wii
- Metroid Other M
- Smash Bros Brawl

I consider Mario 64 and the Galaxy games to be the best videogames of all time.
Adding to this is that all 3 consoles had their fair share of hardcore/obscure/elite/whateverthefuckyouwanttocallit kind of games.

So yeah, Nintendo never lost me.

They don't need to focus on hardcore gamers. Back in the 80's there was no casual or hardcore. There was Super Mario Bros and everybody was playing it. Sure, gaming has evolved but Nintendo should always focus on what they are best at; create games which speak to everyone's imagination regardless of age, background or so-called gamer-type.
 

Metal B

Member
Jul 2, 2007
3,920
0
0
bgassassin said:
  1. Stop being so hardcore (pun intended) about easier gaming/family appeal.

Right Nintendo, stop making so much money and sympathise with a future and forgotten generation! We don't care, if you did this since you start producing consoles and we were this future generation you spoken to! We are now much older and have more experience in this business then you ever will!
 

PokéKong

Member
Feb 13, 2011
1,677
0
0
Portland, OR
It would be glorious if a game's "hardcoreness" was measured almost entirely by its level of genuine challenge it presents the player, the way it should be. Hardcore gamers would be the ones who are dedicated enough to stick with a game to the very end and get the sweet satisfaction of it all, and casuals would be defined as those with low attention spans who can only play a game as long as it's continuously holding their hand and patting them on the back, and wander off to start another game the moment they're discouraged.

In which case, Nintendo would now be and would have always been holding the "hardcore" crown.

It's almost the opposite now, all of the "mature" popular games are more and more being made for kids with ADHD, getting louder, flashier, with fake achievements gratifying you every few minutes, and constantly nudging you along the narrow predetermined path which has been meticulously designed to give what the developer has decided is the optimal most stimulating experience.

Go beat all the time trails in DKCR, collect every treasure in the deepest caves of Pikmin 2, and complete all the story missions on very hard in a little game I like to call F-Zero GX. Then tell me if you think a kiddie kid could have done it.
 

frankie_baby

Member
May 3, 2007
18,400
1
0
The one crowd Nintendo did have back in the n64 days was the fps gamers thanks mainly to rare (goldeneye and perfect dark) and aklaim (the turok series and an absolute slew of others) they lost them with the cube I'd say mainly due to ms releasing halo and buying rare (which although they released next to bugger all for the xbox did leave a massive hole in the cube's lineup)
 
Aug 23, 2007
4,274
0
765
England
miksar said:
If you are speaking about hardcore, Nintendo never lost them. If you are speaking about CoD crowd, Nintendo never had them, it was Sega -> Sony -> Microsoft.
This basically. Nintendo's Wii output is amazing, even with no Pikmin, Star Fox or F-Zero.
 

XPE

Member
Jun 30, 2009
1,358
0
0
Sethos said:
"Hardcore gamer", definition?

Someone who knows how to buy GTA =/

Nintendo has had some of their biggest success going after the non core gamers, I think with the café it should be more like the DS that seemed to capture both types of gamers rather than just catering to the one type.
 

PokéKong

Member
Feb 13, 2011
1,677
0
0
Portland, OR
frankie_baby said:
The one crowd Nintendo did have back in the n64 days was the fps gamers thanks mainly to rare (goldeneye and perfect dark) and aklaim (the turok series and an absolute slew of others) they lost them with the cube I'd say mainly due to ms releasing halo and buying rare (which although they released next to bugger all for the xbox did leave a massive hole in the cube's lineup)

And yet it was right at the beginning of the N64 era that I remember the whole "kiddie vs. mature" phenomena beginning to catch on. And from the very start I recall there was just no reasoning around it no matter how hard I tried, thick people just like stamping that label on Nintendo and I doubt there will ever be anything to change that.
 
Feb 3, 2007
10,323
1
1,110
Third parties didn't want anything to do with the Gamecube even before it launched.

They happily accepted moneyhats from MS to delay GC versions of titles to after they had released on PS2 and Xbox first so that Xbox versions appeared to be 'superior version' technologically.

EA didn't even want to release anything until Nintendo outright paid all of their development costs for them.
 

onken

Member
Dec 15, 2008
7,730
17
850
some place.. far away. yes, that will do
It would be glorious if a game's "hardcoreness" was measured almost entirely by its level of genuine challenge it presents the player, the way it should be. Hardcore gamers would be the ones who are dedicated enough to stick with a game to the very end and get the sweet satisfaction of it all, and casuals would be defined as those with low attention spans who can only play a game as long as it's continuously holding their hand and patting them on the back, and wander off to start another game the moment they're discouraged.

In which case, Nintendo would now be and would have always been holding the "hardcore" crown.

It's almost the opposite now, all of the "mature" popular games are more and more being made for kids with ADHD, getting louder, flashier, with fake achievements gratifying you every few minutes, and constantly nudging you along the narrow predetermined path which has been meticulously designed to give what the developer has decided is the optimal most stimulating experience.

Go beat all the time trails in DKCR, collect every treasure in the deepest caves of Pikmin 2, and complete all the story missions on very hard in a little game I like to call F-Zero GX. Then tell me if you think a kiddie kid could have done it.

lol oh wow you're really trying to claim Wii has more challenging games than ps360 because of one game. Funny stuff.
 

revolverjgw

Member
Sep 21, 2006
17,907
5
0
Nova Scotia
rateyourmusic.com
They always seemed to have poor relations with third parties, I remember even EGM in its kiddy early 90s days used to regularly lambast them for their shady and aloof business tactics... Sony came along at the right time, formed the right relationships with the right publishers and devs, and gobbled up all the support in the PS1 era. The result was an insane library that really catered to older gamers with money to spend... all the RPGs, all the games from PC devs moving over for a piece of the console pie, arcade games that could now be translated to the home easier (Saturn did that better, but still)... Nintendo never seemed to make much of an effort to get this crowd for themselves in subsequent gens. I mean they don't even seem to care about getting their online up to modern standards.

I don't really understand their tactics, maybe this was their plan all along rather than some miscalculation. It seemed to work out for them eventually and they printed money. Their business model doesn't really need non N-fan "hardcore". As has already been suggested, maybe they never lost anyone, they just didn't make a priority to tap into the expanded market the Playstation created.
 

Vic

Please help me with my bad english
Mar 2, 2006
19,523
1
0
Please explain how Nintendo will re-appropriate something they never had in the first place?
 

MYE

Member
Jul 20, 2009
16,499
4
0
onken said:
lol oh wow you're really trying to claim Wii has more challenging games than ps360 because of one game. Funny stuff.

Really? Thats really what you got from that post?
 

frankie_baby

Member
May 3, 2007
18,400
1
0
PokéKong said:
And yet it was right at the beginning of the N64 era that I remember the whole "kiddie vs. mature" phenomena beginning to catch on. And from the very start I recall there was just no reasoning around it no matter how hard I tried, thick people just like stamping that label on Nintendo and I doubt there will ever be anything to change that.
Sad really, with its line up there was no way you could call the n64 kiddy, perhaps yes with some of Nintendos own games but then again crash bandicoot and spyro are far more kiddy than Mario ever will be
 

iNvid02

Member
Aug 16, 2009
18,396
235
1,200
Always-honest said:
Plays shooters with pretty graphics and says "fuck you"online a lot.
Age: between 12 and 16

no thats the typical call of duty player
they usually buy a 360 and pay for live each year just for the new COD game
 

CecilRousso

Member
Jun 29, 2008
10,349
0
1,085
They lost me by not creating enough new IP´s for hardcore gamers. If I buy a Nintendo console, then it´s because of Nintendos game, and they should have tried making new series similiar to Zelda and Metroid. Games like Ico and Shadow of the Colossus should be games that Nintendo also tries to do. When they put in an effort in that direction, then I will be interested.
 

ace3skoot

Member
Jul 30, 2010
925
0
0
id say they never did, the really hardcore gamers stuck with Nintendo, its only the pussies who were scared to try something new who got scared and went Sony/ms Exclusively :p

I don't really understand people who are adamant about having one console if they have the means to get them all, you really just cutting down the amount of experiences available to you.