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Hype Ninty files patent for DLSS 2.0 proprietary 4K technology

Lognor

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Sep 22, 2021
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there's another one for quick-resume
Another One Mtv Emas GIF by 2020 MTV EMA


Oh man. I need this. Quick resume and DLSS would make a Switch 2 a perfect device for me. After using quick resume on XSX it is hard to go back to a device without it. And it would make it so much easier to juggle multiple games )(jump into Animal Crossing to complete a few activities, do a workout in Ring Fit, etc.).
 

Ev1L AuRoN

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Ultra performance dlss is 720p to 4k.

But if Nintendo were to use dlss on their own software it probably wouldn't start so low, but it could vary from team to team.

This gen there's a wide gap in resolution Nintendo uses, i.e. Yoshi crafted world with UE4 and nice GI lighting is 540p while mk8 is 1080p so yeah lol.
Nvidia recommends Ultra Performance for 8K only, using it in 4k creates a lot of artifacts. And let's not forget, Nvidia have dedicated space in their silicon to house tensor cores to deal with the Machine learning stuff. It's very unlikely that Nintendo will have the same computational budget for their implementation on a handheld. DF made a cool video expeculating how DLSS could be implemented on a Switch successor.
 

from1699

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Jun 9, 2021
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Nintendo creating their own DLSS is like a monkey designing a space ship.

Why would they unless they drop nvidia?

Nintendo and Nvidia have a 20-year arrangement.
The two companies work together creating CUSTOM chips and obviously Nintendo intends to optimize Nvidia's technology in order to boost its own internal tools. That's why they're patenting certain things.
 
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StateofMajora

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Nvidia recommends Ultra Performance for 8K only, using it in 4k creates a lot of artifacts. And let's not forget, Nvidia have dedicated space in their silicon to house tensor cores to deal with the Machine learning stuff. It's very unlikely that Nintendo will have the same computational budget for their implementation on a handheld. DF made a cool video expeculating how DLSS could be implemented on a Switch successor.
Got a link to nvidia's recommendation and dismissal of 720p to 4k? In the same video you mentioned, Alex didn't say anything so negative about it iirc. With regards to artifacts.

It (ultra performance 4k) doesn't look crisp now, but dlss is still improving and could for switch 2. I would prefer if Nintendo uses 1080 native dlss, and I think they probably will, usually. There are artifacts in dlss regardless of resolution, currently. With varying degrees of severity based on the game.
 
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Ev1L AuRoN

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Got a link to nvidia's recommendation and dismissal of 720p to 4k? In the same video you mentioned, Alex didn't say anything so negative about it iirc. With regards to artifacts.

It (ultra performance 4k) doesn't look crisp now, but dlss is still improving and could for switch 2. I would prefer if Nintendo uses 1080 native dlss, and I think they probably will, usually. There are artifacts in dlss regardless of resolution, currently. With varying degrees of severity based on the game.
I do own a RTX card and I'm telling, 4k using ultra performance have a lot of artifacts and yes Nvidia don't recommend it for 4k.
 

Kuranghi

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If I ever used this I'd want control over the sharpening, how likely is that in say DLSS 3.0 or whatever comes next? I read they plan to fix the gamma and colour reproduction issues of current DLSS but after that one of my biggest bugbears with it is it looking too artificially sharpen.

Its not like regular cheapo contrast sharpening with its obvious ringing artifacts and the like or anything but it does has this unpleasant thiccness to me even when its the "Quality" mode, I have a feeling the sharpened look is just part of how the process works though.
 
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Oct 7, 2019
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Well I'll be damned, actual proof. I have to say I'm quite surprised! It will be very interesting to see if they actually make something out of this.
 

cireza

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My hardware is not powerful enough to output 1080p, should I put more hardware to achieve 1080p ?
Nope. You should put more hardware... to artificially up-res to 1080p.
Genius.
 

Kataploom

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Maybe they'll release some revision before the succesor comes out, Nintendo always test their future implementations using a current hardware revision
 

Sean Mirrsen

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My hardware is not powerful enough to output 1080p, should I put more hardware to achieve 1080p ?
Nope. You should put more hardware... to artificially up-res to 1080p.
Genius.
Genius indeed. Even if the new hardware didn't manage to output 1080p on older titles by itself, the tensor cores in the new hardware could up-res to 1080p, 1440p, 4K, and beyond. Any resolution, dynamically scaling the source resolution to preserve performance regardless of scene detail, with no visible impact on quality. How is it not genius?
 

Reallink

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Nintendo creating their own DLSS is like a monkey designing a space ship.

Why would they unless they drop nvidia?

An uncannily accurate analogy, though to be fair the monkey probably has a better chance of succeeding. Trillion dollar engineering bastions like MS, Intel, and Facebook haven't even delivered a DLSS competior yet, nevermind AMD (for whom it is mission critical to the core business). Nintendo's attempt will be fashioned out of cardboard by comparison, heretofore dubbed Labo DLSS.
 
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Marvel14

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Who said they are going at it alone? And the presumption that the most successful and established gaming company in history doesn't have the resources to be "good enough" to design their own tech is laugh inducing. No offence.

No offense taken.

We're discussing whether Nintendo went its own way with a DLSS solution and you said:

Saying that godfathers of gaming couldn't create well designed high tech hardware if they wanted to is ridiculous

So according to you Nintendo has the internal capability to create its own SoC, cooling, storage, display, audio, haptic solutions without partnering with leaders in these respective fields.

This despite them having a record of partnering with industry leaders for decades and not pushing the hardware envelope since the Gamecube.

Any laughter you hear is not directed at me bud. Your post record is all the evidence necessary to confirm thar your love of Nintendo has decimated your rationality and objectivity on any topic that has to do with them.


I'd rather someone who really understands this tech explain exactly what this is and how far it is an alternative to DLSS or simply a way to apply DLSS without being beholden to Nvidia for its implementation. If the latter it hardly qualifies as Nintendo going off on its own...especially with French inventors....
 
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cireza

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How is it not genius?
Because it is probably going to be full of artifacts and stuff. It will never be the equivalent of native, and people are wasting time and resources on this. If you can't output 1080p natively in 2021, then something is wrong with your hardware to begin with.
 
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Kyshakk

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Guys stop hyping yourselves up of Nintendo suddenly caring about graphics. You'll end up disappointed.
 

FStubbs

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In before "this will just be put into an upscaling dock for the currently available Switch, released in 2022".

But ... Kirby's coming out next year. So who knows.
 

Marty-McFly

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This despite them having a record of partnering with industry leaders for decades and not pushing the hardware envelope since the Gamecube.
Any laughter you hear is not directed at me bud. Your post record is all the evidence necessary to confirm thar your love of Nintendo has decimated your rationality and objectivity on any topic that has to do with them.
I'd rather someone who really understands this tech explain exactly what this is and how far it is an alternative to DLSS or simply a way to apply DLSS without being beholden to Nvidia for its implementation. If the latter it hardly qualifies as Nintendo going off on its own...especially with French inventors....
Well if you don't understand the tech, you shouldn't be coming in here with your "lol Nintendo babies in hardware" and let the people who understand give their opinions. Every company uses aspects of existing tech from Nvidia or AMD for their hardware.

As I mentioned the patents reference using Nvidia's tensor cores to implement the ML software solution, so it does seem like the infrastructure used will be Nvidia's, but Nintendo obviously want full control over the algorithm.
 
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NahaNago

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As I remember they said they expect Switch to last around 4 years, so I assume they'll release its successor 1 or 2 years before that. I'd say 2024 is more likely.
Spring 2024. They will still get some ports in 2022 and their will probably be a drought in the AAA department in 2023 and then release early 2024.
 

Spacefish

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Makes sense that Nintendo would want to avoid coupling core graphics tech with Nvidia, this will last longer than a single generation and being shackled to a single hardware company is a bad move long term (especially when that company is nvidia)
 

Rat Rage

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Companies wouldn't have to deal with all this "4K" bullshit if it hadn't become mainstream.
4K is unnecessary.
CRT tech and its standardized SD resolution has been around for 100 years, then LCDs and FULL HD became popular. Instead of just being content with it and make it another worldwide standard, just years after it became widespread, stupid TV manufacturer marketing succeeded in making consumer sheep believe they need 4K, eventhough they probably don't even see a difference at normal viewing distances.

HD and 4K isn't much of a difference at normal viewing distances and rendering at native 4K is such a stupid waste of resources, it's idiotic. That's exactly why AI Ucscaling has become so relevant.
4K is bad for gaming. Why waste so many resources on something that has so little perceivable gain?

Yet, 4K is here to stay and will probably become the next longer lasting resolution standard, because even the dumbest consumer sheep won't fall for the 8k meme.

DLSS and similar upscaling techniques are the perfect solution for this dilemma: keeping native rendering at 1080p, therefore allowing for more affordable hardware, but still catering to the general public who've widespread adopted 4K.
 
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Sean Mirrsen

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I'd rather someone who really understands this tech explain exactly what this is and how far it is an alternative to DLSS or simply a way to apply DLSS without being beholden to Nvidia for its implementation. If the latter it hardly qualifies as Nintendo going off on its own...especially with French inventors....
Why would French inventors be worse for this than any other inventors?

Also this is 100% a subsidized fork off of NVidia's tech, basically giving Nintendo a variation of DLSS that Nintendo itself owns and is free to modify according to their needs. They are indeed the godfathers of gaming. They got there by making hardware and software that complement each other. That's why they are so resistant to using off-the-shelf engines for their games. Nintendo want to be free to alter the tech they use to fit their specific needs, not have to go and ask NVidia to make changes to DLSS.

Because it is probably going to be full of artifacts and stuff. It will never be the equivalent of native, and people are wasting time and resources on this. If you can't output 1080p natively in 2021, then something is wrong with your hardware to begin with.
Or you're trying to run games too intensive for your hardware that is otherwise perfectly suited for its purpose. The Switch can output 1080p60, just not in anything resembling modern games. There's a reason why even the Steam Deck uses a 720p screen. Why huff and puff for 1080p if 720p is perfectly acceptable? And if the Deck had tensor cores and thus DLSS, it would have no problem pushing out 1440p with no image quality loss.

People should stop going after fidelity, in my opinion. 1080p DLSS'ed up from 540p is great if it lets you run modern games on a device that fits in an oversized pocket.
 

StateofMajora

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I do own a RTX card and I'm telling, 4k using ultra performance have a lot of artifacts and yes Nvidia don't recommend it for 4k.
What kind of artifacts? Where did Nvidia say this?

I’m just asking for clarification. I don’t doubt it’s got problems. 1440p to 4k dlss isn’t perfect.
 
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StateofMajora

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Companies wouldn't have to deal with all this "4K" bullshit if it hadn't become mainstream.
4K is unnecessary.
CRT tech and its standardized SD resolution has been around for 100 years, then LCDs and FULL HD became popular. Instead of just being content with it and make it another worldwide standard, just years after it became widespread, stupid TV manufacturer marketing succeeded in making consumer sheep believe, they need 4K, eventhough they probably don't even see a difference at normal viewing distances.

HD and 4K isn't much of a difference at normal viewing distances and rendering at native 4K is such a stupid waste of resources, it's idiotic. That's exactly why AI Ucscaling has become so relevant.
4K is bad for gaming. Why waste so many resources on something that has so little perceivable gain?

Yet, 4K is here to stay and will probably become the next longer lasting resolution standard, because even the dumbest consumer sheep won't fall for the 8k meme.

DLSS and similar upscaling techniques are the perfect solution for this dilemma: keeping native rendering at 1080p, therefore allowing for more affordable hardware, but still catering to the general public who've widespread adopted 4K.
Give it 5 years, you’ll see 8k start to eat 4k tvs unfortunately.
 

bender

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Nintendo developing their own solution helps them be hardware vendor agnostic. The downside is that could hamper backwards compatibility moving forward.
 
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Deerock71

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I'll go on record as saying we won't see a Switch successor until Nintendo knows whether or not they can topple the DS/PS2 virtual tie. I know the PS2 is currently slated as the King, but it was/is HOTLY contested, to say the least, by the DS. Nintendo has a system that has sold GANGBUSTERS without the virtue of a price cut and/or bundles. I think projecting where it could end up, barring chip shortages or economic collapse, is fool's folly at this point. I'm pretty sure Nintendo's boardroom wants to ride this pony as far as it will take them.
 

StateofMajora

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Isn't Yoshis Crafted World native 540p, it would be glorious at 4k.
Yeah. The materials and lighting look as good as any ps4 game, but it looks noticeably low res. Still looks great but on a 55 inch plus you better have a good sony tv for that upscaling magic. It's not too bad on my 49 inch... but it's pretty much the worst image quality on nintendo made games (minus xenoblade, yikes)
 
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coffinbirth

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I see several people in this thread wondering why 540p is even in the conversation, but I believe that is for backwards compatibility. If memory serves there are more than a few games that ran at that resolution, with Witcher 3 instantly coming to mind. It makes perfect sense, and frankly is pretty awesome to imagine that Switch games would get a resolution bump via this method on the next hardware.
 
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Marty-McFly

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I'll go on record as saying we won't see a Switch successor until Nintendo knows whether or not they can topple the DS/PS2 virtual tie. I know the PS2 is currently slated as the King, but it was/is HOTLY contested, to say the least, by the DS. Nintendo has a system that has sold GANGBUSTERS without the virtue of a price cut and/or bundles. I think projecting where it could end up, barring chip shortages or economic collapse, is fool's folly at this point. I'm pretty sure Nintendo's boardroom wants to ride this pony as far as it will take them.
I'm not sure how much Nintendo cares about having the best selling console of all time vs. having explosive sales and profits year in and year out, but if we get a mid gen refresh that record for most hardware sold is going to get smashed.
 
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Robb

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I’ve always thought DLSS would be an absolutely perfect fit for Nintendo and the Switch going forward, but you never know with Nintendo.

I’m not sure what this could mean, but it’s great news that Nintendo is even looking at the tech.
 

Joelenheimer

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Where are you all getting 4K from, just cause you read the word upscaled and once again are assuming way too much of Nintendo? Prepare. For. Disappointment.
 

Marvel14

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Well if you don't understand the tech, you shouldn't be coming in here with your "lol Nintendo babies in hardware" and let the people who understand give their opinions. Every company uses aspects of existing tech from Nvidia or AMD for their hardware.

As I mentioned the patents reference using Nvidia's tensor cores to implement the ML software solution, so it does seem like the infrastructure used will be Nvidia's, but Nintendo obviously want full control over the algorithm.

What is it with you and Sean Mirrsen Sean Mirrsen ?

No one in this convo is saying that Nintendo designs shit or baby hardware.

All we're saying is that Nintendo wouldn't develop cutting edge tech in the area of graphics all by itself ...even the patent you posted supports this as the inventors are based in France not Japan or Germany where Nintendo's Europe HQ is.

Since you're the expert on DLSS and thus authorised by this discussion forum to provide a perspective, please explain in detail how DLSS works in terms of both hardware requirements (tensor cores) and software and how this patent makes this Nintendo's own DLSS solution and does not make use of any of NVidia's tech except for hardware, so that as you intimate this is not DLSS but Nintendo's own machine learning solution. Feel free to link to sources and summarise the key salient points.

Thanks in advance.
 
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cireza

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The Switch can output 1080p60, just not in anything resembling modern games
Switch games simply don't have to resemble modern games maybe ?

Have it play Outrun 2 in 1080p@60fps, it will look better than anything on the console... Because it will be smooth, native res, and not try to reinvent missing information.
We have completely lost track of common sense. There was a time where we designed games around target specifications, and we were playing optimized games than ran great.

Nowadays, we develop games, and try to have them run on every single hardware under the sun by lowering parameters and whatever, leading to disappointing experiences. DLSS is seen as the miracle feature that will fix all of this (and allow developers to make even less efforts lol), but people are expecting too much from it.
 
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Marty-McFly

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What is it with you and Sean Mirrsen Sean Mirrsen ?

No one in this convo is saying that Nintendo designs shit or baby hardware.

All we're saying is that Nintendo wouldn't develop cutting edge tech in the area of graphics all by itself ...even the patent you posted supports this as the inventors are based in France not Japan or Germany where Nintendo's Europe HQ is.

Since you're the expert on DLSS and thus authorised by this discussion forum to provide a perspective, please explain in detail how DLSS works in terms of both hardware requirements (tensor cores) and software and how this patent makes this Nintendo's own DLSS solution and does not make use of any of NVidia's tech except for hardware, so that as you intimate this is not DLSS but Nintendo's own machine learning solution. Feel free to link to sources and summarise the key salient points.

Thanks in advance.
Yeah, I never said that either. No hardware manufacturer solely develops their own hardware at this point, and DLSS is tech is not cutting edge hardware. It's technology meant to get around the pitfalls of having to go balls in with the hardware and power consumpetion which is perfect for mobile use.

You may want to reread this post because you seem to be drawing false conclusions.

Multiple possibilities. Note that we've known for a while that NERD actually does have their own machine learning engine, which was used to upscale the pre-rendered videos in Super Mario Sunshine.

1 Nintendo wants to have their own solution for future proofing, so that if they ever do split from Nvidia they will still be able to use ML upscaling
2 Nintendo built their own ML solution that plays better with their own internal engines
3 Nintendo built their own ML solution that plays better with older legacy content
4 Nintendo built their own ML solution that plays better with their graphical style than general DLSS does

The patents reference using Nvidia's tensor cores to implement the ML software solution, so it does seem like the infrastructure used will be Nvidia's, but they obviously want full control over the algorithm.
 
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Marvel14

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Yeah, I never said that either. No hardware manufacturer solely develops their own hardware at this point, and DLSS is tech is not cutting edge hardware. It's technology meant to get around the pitfalls of having to go balls in with the hardware and power consumpetion which is perfect for mobile use.

You may want to reread this post because you seem to be drawing false conclusions.

Yes then why did you say:

Saying that godfathers of gaming couldn't create well designed high tech hardware if they wanted to is ridiculous

When we were wondering if they were going it alone without NVIDIA? Create implies they are doing it themselves. You're getting a reputation for dishonest discussion mate..

Also answer the question since you're such a tech expert. If Nintendo apply this patent to their next console are they using NVIDias DLSS with their own process for execution or is their entire upscale and rendering solution propriety and therefore does not use NVIDIA'S DLSS at all?
 
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Marty-McFly

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Yes then why did you say:

Saying that godfathers of gaming couldn't create well designed high tech hardware if they wanted to is ridiculous

When we were wondering if they were going it alone without NVIDIA? Create implies they are doing it themselves. You're getting a reputation for dishonest discussion mate..

Also answer the question since you're such a tech expert. If Nintendo apply this patent to their next console are they using NVIDias DLSS with their own process for execution or is their entire upscale and rendering solution propriety and therefore does not use NVIDIA'S DLSS at all?
Create means having the intuition ans resources to do so in this industry. This is an elementary concept in hardware manufacturer design

You're trying too hard to shit on my thread and it's obvious.
 
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