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No bail needed in NY

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
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Journalists have been covering the situation in NY for some time now whereby suspects are stuck awaiting arraignment/hearing/trial/etc. for months or even years inside Riker's when unable to post bail, so I'm guessing this is a response to that. Sounds like an over-correction band-aid in place of proper reform, though.
 

Zefah

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Jan 7, 2007
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They gonna broke, then raise taxes, then ask for more government bailout, skim, rinse/repeat.
Do they actually make money from the bail system? I mean, they only get to keep it when someone skips their court appointment, which I imagine is not that common in the case of people who pay bail (correct me if I'm wrong). There's probably a non-insignificant cost to processing and managing the system of receiving money and returning it, and there's also of course significant cost to "hosting" prosecuted people in jail while they await trial when they aren't able to pay bail.

With that said, I would suspect that poorer who are unable to make bail and have nothing to lose would be more likely to skip town after being released, but I suppose I don't have any data to back that up.
 

DeepEnigma

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Do they actually make money from the bail system? I mean, they only get to keep it when someone skips their court appointment, which I imagine is not that common in the case of people who pay bail (correct me if I'm wrong). There's probably a non-insignificant cost to processing and managing the system of receiving money and returning it, and there's also of course significant cost to "hosting" prosecuted people in jail while they await trial when they aren't able to pay bail.

With that said, I would suspect that poorer who are unable to make bail and have nothing to lose would be more likely to skip town after being released, but I suppose I don't have any data to back that up.
I don’t believe you get your bail money back even if you show up to court, unless you win a case.

This will have an impact on the bondsman industry since they are fronting for you, as well as the people that track down those who skip bail. No financial incentive to hunt that bounty.
 

Zefah

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I don’t believe you get your bail money back even if you show up to court, unless you win a case.

This will have an impact on the bondsman industry since they are fronting for you, as well as the people that track down those who skip bail. No financial incentive to hunt that bounty.
No, I'm pretty sure that bail is only insurance on your showing up to required court dates and has nothing to do with the judge's ultimate verdict.
 
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DeepEnigma

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No, I'm pretty sure that bail is only insurance on your showing up to required court dates and has nothing to do with the judge's ultimate verdict.
I meant through a bondsman, not directly, my bad.
 
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boogyman

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It's a good thing it's in NYC and not where I live. If those idiots want to do idiotic things? Let them. I'd imagine most of the marks by this will support this.

Try to export that way of thinking and we will have a problem.
 

boogyman

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Some local news coverage:



"In many cases, judges will not have discretion to hold suspects in custody, even if there's evidence the person is a danger to the victim or the public."
Don't the victims and witnesses have to submit their contact info to the attorneys of the defendants?

I believe I read that, but hard to say with all the media sources pushing their own agenda.

That cannot end well if so.
 

Yoshi

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Journalists have been covering the situation in NY for some time now whereby suspects are stuck awaiting arraignment/hearing/trial/etc. for months or even years inside Riker's when unable to post bail, so I'm guessing this is a response to that. Sounds like an over-correction band-aid in place of proper reform, though.
It would probably have been a better idea to assign a limit then: If one stays in custody without hearing / trial for longer than X period of time they need to be release without bail. This way, particularly bad cases can be treated with more urgency.
 

boogyman

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It would probably have been a better idea to assign a limit then: If one stays in custody without hearing / trial for longer than X period of time they need to be release without bail. This way, particularly bad cases can be treated with more urgency.
I guess it would depend if there was a victim or not.
 
Oct 12, 2005
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i’m more worried about the other justice reforms ..
now prosecutors need to have evidence in by 15 days or risk losing .. also they have to give the defense witness information .. it will promote witness tampering and intimidation
i can’t believe the asinine choices this progressive government has made
i think it’s gonna fuck this state up.. people are already leaving in droves
 

Gargus

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Ok just so I am clear. If your arrested for any of those crimes you can be released without bail?

Is this a new permanent thing? Or is it just a one time thing for currently in custody folks?
 

HeresJohnny

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Mar 14, 2018
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Some local news coverage:



"In many cases, judges will not have discretion to hold suspects in custody, even if there's evidence the person is a danger to the victim or the public."
I can't understand how, in the litigious society we live in, someone hasn't sued state or federal government for something bad happening to someone due to the perpetrator of the crime being released when they shouldn't have been. I mean, every two bit ambulance chaser would be licking their chops to have a wrongful death case like that, I'd wager.
 
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boogyman

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I can't understand how, in the litigious society we live in, someone hasn't sued state or federal government for something bad happening to someone due to the perpetrator of the crime being released when they shouldn't have been. I mean, every two bit ambulance chaser would be licking their chops to have a wrongful death case like that, I'd wager.
It's gonna happen. This and no gun zones.
 
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Eiknarf

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These new laws not only let them go - but they must disclose all the victims’ info to the defendants.
 
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Boss Mog

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This really seems like one step forward, two steps back. There will definitely be criminals that will commit crimes while awaiting trial that they wouldn't have, had they been locked up in Riker's.
 

Musky_Cheese

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Oct 23, 2016
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Reform is needed - America's Bail system is fundamentally broken. It punishes the poor and can have innocent people sitting in jail for years.
Yeah. Had a friend who was locked up awaiting trail. Family couldn't afford bail. Eventually took a plea that was 2 months less than total time served. Took the plea and was released.

This seems like an over correction tho.
 

Super Mario

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Nov 12, 2016
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Reform is needed - America's Bail system is fundamentally broken. It punishes the poor and can have innocent people sitting in jail for years.
How many innocent people do you know that have sat in jail for years?

America needs a citizen reform, not more free passes for criminals.
 
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Dec 15, 2011
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What is the incentive for a criminal to reform when they have a literal 'get out of jail free' card and also get to know the details of their victims.

What sort of society endorse and enables criminality, whilst removing protection and security from victims. A society whose leaders are either incompetent, corrupt or who are looking to start civil war.
 

undrtakr900

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It would probably have been a better idea to assign a limit then: If one stays in custody without hearing / trial for longer than X period of time they need to be release without bail. This way, particularly bad cases can be treated with more urgency.
But the problem is that the current bail-system disproportionately negatively affects poor people, because upper-class can afford to pay the bail (or 10% bail-bonds). Even a "custody limit" of a few months can ruin a persons life, since they can lose their job and/or home, while waiting for their trial.
 

Yoshi

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But the problem is that the current bail-system disproportionately negatively affects poor people, because upper-class can afford to pay the bail (or 10% bail-bonds). Even a "custody limit" of a few months can ruin a persons life, since they can lose their job and/or home, while waiting for their trial.
Second degree manslaughter is a pretty serious charge though, if the custody is well-founded, then it is a matter of public interest to at least have the option to keep the person for a few weeks. However, if release on bail is seen as an option, then I release without bail for people with low amount of money should be OK as well, but as I understand the op, this law only specifies that the person with such charges shall be released without bail, no matter whether bail was an option in the first place.
 
Dec 15, 2011
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Going through that list, it's like a to-do of how to enact social decay.

Notable bullet points on that list that plug directly into an increasingly apparent narrative:

* Promoting or possessing an obscene sexual performance by a child
* Unlawful imprisonment in the first degree
* Criminal possession of a controlled substance in the first and second degree
* Criminal sale of a controlled substance in the first and second degree, or near/on school grounds
* Failure to register as a sex offender

Just imagine the rotating-door policy of no-bail to reform a pleasant character committing those acts - and being thrust directly back into the community over and over.

:unsure:
 

sahlberg

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It is just the same symptom of california decriminalizing shoplifting under xyz$

At some stage morality in your local community has degenerated enough that policing no longer works
so you have few choices.
Close your eyes and wish the problem away might be as good a solution as anything else.
 
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AfricanKing

Formerly 'AfricanKing' ... purposely obtuse
Jul 16, 2017
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How many innocent people do you know that have sat in jail for years?

America needs a citizen reform, not more free passes for criminals.
460000 people are held in jail and leave with not being convicted.

That’s a very substantial figure if you ask me.
 

Kreios

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I really liked that guy’s analogy in the video “someone can just run around, punching someone every day!” you know, like how things used to be settled.

A few on that list I agree with, but a lot not so much. Courts are mess, I was stuck myself for a total of 4 years (out on bail, but waiting for cases to finish)
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Going through that list, it's like a to-do of how to enact social decay.

Notable bullet points on that list that plug directly into an increasingly apparent narrative:

* Promoting or possessing an obscene sexual performance by a child
* Unlawful imprisonment in the first degree
* Criminal possession of a controlled substance in the first and second degree
* Criminal sale of a controlled substance in the first and second degree, or near/on school grounds
* Failure to register as a sex offender

Just imagine the rotating-door policy of no-bail to reform a pleasant character committing those acts - and being thrust directly back into the community over and over.

:unsure:
Let's hope certain ideologies/religions with a higher-than-avg incidence of those behaviors don't show up to groom the neighborhood while the cops legally ignore it. 🤷‍♀️
 
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Zenaku

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I notice it mentions soliciting prostitution in a school zone, but doesn't mention soliciting prostitution on its own. Prostitution to become legal in NY?
 

Ornlu

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LOL @ no bail for killing people. WTF.

Just from part of that list; no bail for:

1. Running down and killing someone with a car
2. Dealing drugs
3. Having kids deal drugs for you
4. Pimping
5. Pimping kids
6. Terrorism
7. Selling guns to kids
8. Burnin shit down
9. Financing terrorism
10. Kiddie porn
11. Dogfighting
12. Kidnapping
13. Grand Theft Auto
14. Resisting arrest
15. Bribery
16. Selling drugs in prison
17. Jury tampering
18. Evidence tampering
19. Pepper-spraying government workers

This shit wouldn't be out of place on a parody site.
 
Dec 15, 2011
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LOL @ no bail for killing people. WTF.

Just from part of that list; no bail for:

1. Running down and killing someone with a car
2. Dealing drugs
3. Having kids deal drugs for you
4. Pimping
5. Pimping kids
6. Terrorism
7. Selling guns to kids
8. Burnin shit down
9. Financing terrorism
10. Kiddie porn
11. Dogfighting
12. Kidnapping
13. Grand Theft Auto
14. Resisting arrest
15. Bribery
16. Selling drugs in prison
17. Jury tampering
18. Evidence tampering
19. Pepper-spraying government workers

This shit wouldn't be out of place on a parody site.
You can now get away with fewer things in the videogame GTA then you can in NYC.
 

Super Mario

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But the problem is that the current bail-system disproportionately negatively affects poor people, because upper-class can afford to pay the bail (or 10% bail-bonds). Even a "custody limit" of a few months can ruin a persons life, since they can lose their job and/or home, while waiting for their trial.
On top of being poor and committing a crime, I'm sure if we reach deep, there is one more enabler we could implement for these poor victims.
 

cryptoadam

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I think they also give you bus fare and burner phone when they release you.
 

Miku Miku

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When you think about bail in general, it is a bizarre concept. The whole thing deserves serious questioning.

No one assesses your guilt or innocence. It's pre-trial. All they do is let rich people out and keep poor people in. That's literally all it does.

Then you get to the lawyer phase in a trial. A lot of that keeps rich people out and poor people in as well.

Too much of the justice system is tied to income inequality.

People should be kept in jail if they're potentially dangerous, or if they're a flight risk. Money really has nothing to do with it.
 
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Zefah

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When you think about bail in general, it is a bizarre concept. The whole thing deserves serious questioning.

No one assesses your guilt or innocence. It's pre-trial. All they do is let rich people out and keep poor people in. That's literally all it does.

Then you get to the lawyer phase in a trial. A lot of that keeps rich people out and poor people in as well.

Too much of the justice system is tied to income inequality.

People should be kept in jail if they're potentially dangerous, or if they're a flight risk. Money really has nothing to do with it.
I generally agree, but at the same time, it sort of stands to reason that a person with money would be less likely to flee or commit another serious crime while awaiting trial than someone with nothing. Maybe that's just my bias, but I feel like people with more to lose tend to be more careful with the law.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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When you think about bail in general, it is a bizarre concept. The whole thing deserves serious questioning.

No one assesses your guilt or innocence. It's pre-trial. All they do is let rich people out and keep poor people in. That's literally all it does.

Then you get to the lawyer phase in a trial. A lot of that keeps rich people out and poor people in as well.

Too much of the justice system is tied to income inequality.

People should be kept in jail if they're potentially dangerous, or if they're a flight risk. Money really has nothing to do with it.
It's an imperfect solution in an imperfect situation. The concept of "surety" is ancient, going way back to biblical times. One example is Jacob's sons offering themselves as surety instead of Benjamin, and another example is Judah leaving his seal and staff with Tamar.

Worth noting that bail money is returned if the defendant makes all court appearances, even if they are eventually convicted of the accused crime. The idea is that in lieu of the State holding the accused, the family members hold them accountable to show up in court. Otherwise, they lose the money.


It's an evolution of the system where families had to stand by a criminal held in the stocks, protecting them from hecklers and perverts (seriously).

Imagine if a corrupt judge throws you into jail to await future trial (which you get in 2 years, or maybe never) because your successful business stepped on his nephew's toes, and it just so happened that you were jailed as you were about to cut several lucrative business deals. Oh well. I guess those deals are conveniently snatched up by the judge's nephew. 🤷‍♀️

It is because of this well-documented of abuses within the judicial system that the USA's constitution ensures a speedy trial for the accused. Faced with the inevitable bureaucratic slowdowns and delays, it's impossible to hold everyone awaiting trial, so this is the compromise.
 
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undrtakr900

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On top of being poor and committing a crime, I'm sure if we reach deep, there is one more enabler we could implement for these poor victims.
Everyone that gets arrested did not "commit a crime", there have been many 100% innocent poor people sitting in jail for month or years awaiting trial (to prove their innocence), only because they can't afford bail.
Second degree manslaughter is a pretty serious charge though, if the custody is well-founded, then it is a matter of public interest to at least have the option to keep the person for a few weeks. However, if release on bail is seen as an option, then I release without bail for people with low amount of money should be OK as well, but as I understand the op, this law only specifies that the person with such charges shall be released without bail, no matter whether bail was an option in the first place.
Second degree murder is like negligible homicide, where the death wasn't premeditated or intentional, but caused from reckless behavior. An example I read is a person playing with a gun, thinking it's unloaded, then accidentally shooting someone; which IMO shouldn't require bail since it wasn't done on purpose (like 1st degree murder).

Yes, you are correct there will be no "bail hearing" for anyone accused of those crime listed in the OP.
 

Woo-Fu

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No, I'm pretty sure that bail is only insurance on your showing up to required court dates and has nothing to do with the judge's ultimate verdict.
If you pay the full amount you get it back. Thing is, poor people can't usually pay that full amount. Instead they pay a percentage of it to a bondsman that they never get back and/or sign over some collateral for the full amount that they lose if the suspect doesn't show up for court.

So yes, the bail bonds business is a very profitable business, particularly in urban areas.
 
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USMC43

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Time for sedition charges for shitbag Cuomo. This terrible policy in Cali (Prop 47) has decimated Los Angeles. Criminals roam free without any repercussions. Police need to man the fuck up and stand up to these lawless politicians. They are endangering the general population. You know, the ones they swore an oath to protect........
 
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autoduelist

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When you think about bail in general, it is a bizarre concept. The whole thing deserves serious questioning.

No one assesses your guilt or innocence. It's pre-trial. All they do is let rich people out and keep poor people in. That's literally all it does.

Then you get to the lawyer phase in a trial. A lot of that keeps rich people out and poor people in as well.

Too much of the justice system is tied to income inequality.

People should be kept in jail if they're potentially dangerous, or if they're a flight risk. Money really has nothing to do with it.
You're being a bit reductionist on bail. Wealth plays a factor, sure, but the system itself was created for a reason and makes absolute sense. Giving the judge a way to let people be free while awaiting trial is important. And having it be an impactful amount of money is the point - that's what keeps many people from being a flight risk as they just bus over to a new state.

Our system is amazing. Sure, the rich / connected will have better lawyers, but that's true in any system. Here, we are presumed innocent. We have a jury of peers. We have rights. We have due process. We are given a free lawyer if need be. We have appeals. We have protection from cruel punishment. We have layers upon layers of rights and protections.

Is it perfect? Of course not. But it's still a pretty stunning accomplishment, and far superior to most if not all of the planet. If i was poor, and arrested for a crime i didn't commit, i would hope beyond hope beyond hope I was in America. And then hope some more.

Inequality exists in every system known to man. All things considered, i'd far rather have benefits be tied to wealth [with the previously stated rights for all] than justice itself tied to other factors like party affiliation/loyalty, religion, caste, etc. And that's assuming a system not built from the ground up on corruption and bribery, like some legal systems around the world.

I feel like people [myself included] watch far too much tv and see the worst of the worst case scenarios so often we greatly underestimate the system we have.
 

Ornlu

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And it begins

freed thanks to the “no bail needed”, then commits a crime again!!!

We can post auto-play videos? I didn't know that was possible on the forum. 🧠

I really hate auto-play
 

gunslikewhoa

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cryptoadam

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gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet amrite.