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Nobel prize winner James Watson stripped of titles after suggesting genes make black people less intelligent

olimariOA

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The bolded isn't completely correct. You are only half right. @ssolitare in this very thread pointed this out to you earlier. And again what do you mean "reality doesn't jive"? In what respects? It seems like because you scored very high on an IQ test, you believe it's the only way to test for intelligence.

Why can't you people realize that the IQ test doesn't test for social and emotional skills? Along with other skills that humans have.

IQ is great standard for intelligence because it relates to achievement.
There are other factors like you mentioned, but the people responsible for pushing humanity ahead all had extremely high IQs and weren't necessarily adept socially or emotionally.

Look at the Mission Planning and Development team at NASA that spearheaded the Apollo program.
You have a lot of incredibly intelligent introverts lead by highly intelligent extroverts.

Nobody in that room had a 100 IQ and nobody with a 100 IQ is pushing the envelope because they are social and emotional.
You can sweat some points either way, but we're talking about people that are so far from average that they could lose 45 IQ points and still be smarter than the average human.
 

Idiocracy

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M MDS even if you repeat your post there is a basic problem with it.
Study is quoted:
“For example, 7R/7R individuals of North and South American ancestry are common, but 7R/7R individuals from Asia are rare. In our 4R/4R sample, we intentionally included a large fraction (39%) of individuals of African ancestry, to estimate the “ancestral” frequency of polymorphisms (see below)."

Your conclusion:
“Intro to the common alleles and that they differ between populations. So, for instance, the 7R (7 Repeats) variant of the gene is very rare in Asians but 39% of the population in Africans. There's many more variations but 4R/7R/2R are the most common. (5R for instance is around but uncommon and appears to be straight-out harmful while 7R/4R/2R appear to have all been selected for to different extents in different populations)”

The 39% you quote doesn’t refer to 7R but 4R in their sample, and even if it did, the sample isn’t representative of the population.
 

mckmas8808

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It does test for a very specific set of skill and you seem to completly disregard that. There's plenty to be gained by making research on the subject but people like you won't allow it.
I will allow it. I welcome it. But I welcome all of the test and analysis, not just the stuff I want to be true. There's so many times white people during Western socieity's history have said black people aren't smart or as smart as they are. And many times over the last 400 years we've have always kept proving them wrong.

1. Slaves aren't smart enough to understand words written in the English language.

Then we have



2. Blacks aren't smart enough to become scientist


Then we had




3. Black women especially aren't smart enough at mathematics


Then we had



4. Black people aren't smart enough to be Quarterback in the NFL


Then we had




5. Black people aren't smart enough to be President of the "Free World" (America)



Then we had







So now yall have made a cheat code to finally "PROVE" once and for all you guys are smarter than us genetically by using IQ scores as the baseline. And if we question that, we are the "PC" ones. We are the ones holding back useful research and understanding. Come on man, you're better than this. Fight against that urge to believe and follow what you were taught as a kid. Open your mind and think logically.


IQ is great standard for intelligence because it relates to achievement.
There are other factors like you mentioned, but the people responsible for pushing humanity ahead all had extremely high IQs and weren't necessarily adept socially or emotionally.

Look at the Mission Planning and Development team at NASA that spearheaded the Apollo program.
You have a lot of incredibly intelligent introverts lead by highly intelligent extroverts.

Nobody in that room had a 100 IQ and nobody with a 100 IQ is pushing the envelope because they are social and emotional.
You can sweat some points either way, but we're talking about people that are so far from average that they could lose 45 IQ points and still be smarter than the average human.
You too are failing at understanding what "intelligence" is. You think using NASA scientists shows you some level of intelligence. Yet you don't account for the level of intelligence someone would need to survive in the wild without access to modern day technology. What you deem to be intelligence is too narrow. I'm almost begging you guys to open your mind to what intelligence looks like. I can see why ssolitare bowed out the converstation and decided to not talk to you guys about this. Your bias is too thick.
 
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RedVIper

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I will allow it. I welcome it. But I welcome all of the test and analysis, not just the stuff I want to be true. There's so many times white people during Western socieity's history have said black people aren't smart or as smart as they are. And many times over the last 400 years we've have always kept proving them wrong.

1. Slaves aren't smart enough to understand words written in the English language.

Then we have



2. Blacks aren't smart enough to become scientist


Then we had




3. Black women especially aren't smart enough at mathematics


Then we had


4. Black people aren't smart enough to be Quarterback in the NFL


Then we had




5. Black people aren't smart enough to be President of the "Free World" (America)



Then we had






So now yall have made a cheat code to finally "PROVE" once and for all you guys are smarter than us genetically by using IQ scores as the baseline. And if we question that, we are the "PC" ones. We are the ones holding back useful research and understanding. Come on man, you're better than this. Fight against that urge to believe and follow what you were taught as a kid. Open your mind and think logically.

If you're going to start listing blacks peoples achievements and white's people achievements I think you're going to lose that battle.

IQ scores have existed for quite a while you know, you're implying it was created to "keep a brother down" or something. It has always been used has the baseline for intelligence, while it doesn't account for social skills(Which I'd argue is not the same as intelligence anyway), it's the best way we have to test intelligence.

If you'd stop calling me a racist that would be great to.
 

JordanN

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mckmas8808 mckmas8808

Your post represents the NAXALT fallacy.



No one who is well versed in this subject believe no smart black people exist. It's where the averages lie that makes the difference.


 
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mckmas8808

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If you're going to start listing blacks peoples achievements and white's people achievements I think you're going to lose that battle.

IQ scores have existed for quite a while you know, you're implying it was created to "keep a brother down" or something. It has always been used has the baseline for intelligence, while it doesn't account for social skills(Which I'd argue is not the same as intelligence anyway), it's the best way we have to test intelligence.

If you'd stop calling me a racist that would be great to.
I don't think IQ test were created to "keep a brother down". It's obvious that some people love to use those scores as a cloaking device to hide their biases and bigotry. The bolded is a GREAT example of what I've been talking about this whole time. The fact that you don't want social skills to be considered "intelligence" is the number one issue I have with people like yourself. You want to strip out what's not intelligence, but include only the things that you like to matter. You can't do that. It doesn't work that way.

And you're only a racist if the shoe fits. I'm not calling you a racist. But some of the things that you've said are things that racist have said and strongly believe. I'd personally hate for you to be lumped in with those type of people. If I were you, I'd ask myself why I "need" people of African descent to considered less intelligent than Whites and Asians. Even after scientist would tell you that intelligence can't be determined by one score and a closed set of factors and cultural leanings.
 

Pumpkin Seeds

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IQ has some issues, but there's a war between people who overuse it and people who completely dismiss it. That war hurts everyone.

I would say that in regards to Africa, malnutrition in the early years of development is one factor that has shown to impact general intelligence and Africa's child survival rate and early years nutrition has been in the dumps for decades. It's only recently been improved and it would be worth seeing how the betterment of child nutrition helps the IQ scores of Africa.

I also feel that the surrounding culture must value intelligence and abstract thinking for the best minds to emerge and help those around them. Even in developed countries, a lot of minority groups have a heavy anti-intellectual bias that makes minorities within minority groups. I think this has been part of the influence that creates the Minstrel Intellectual. I am talking about a Dr Lamont Hill or a Michael Dyson. The college educated black man who sells nothing but grievance and, often, a fiery preacher sermon. These are people who think they're James Baldwin, but they're really just Oswald Bates. They should know this, but they're actually not smart enough to know it. Baldwin was not welcome in his own community and he still wouldn't be welcome today. A culture that doesn't value its scientists and doctors isn't going to keep its scientists and doctors.

Which is what happens. Third world geniuses get sucked up by western nations that want to exploit their smarts and leave behind their home nations that resent those smarts. Maybe sometimes you shouldn't still be Jenny from the block.

Another way of putting it, that will surely rile some feathers, is to be recognized as smart in a developing nation or a western minority culture, you have to in some form or another blame white people for troubles, but a truly smart person would know you can't just blame 'white people'. If you want to see this in action, watch a South African Parliament session.
 
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RedVIper

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I don't think IQ test were created to "keep a brother down". It's obvious that some people love to use those scores as a cloaking device to hide their biases and bigotry. The bolded is a GREAT example of what I've been talking about this whole time. The fact that you don't want social skills to be considered "intelligence" is the number one issue I have with people like yourself. You want to strip out what's not intelligence, but include only the things that you like to matter. You can't do that. It doesn't work that way.

And you're only a racist if the shoe fits. I'm not calling you a racist. But some of the things that you've said are things that racist have said and strongly believe. I'd personally hate for you to be lumped in with those type of people. If I were you, I'd ask myself why I "need" people of African descent to considered less intelligent than Whites and Asians. Even after scientist would tell you that intelligence can't be determined by one score and a closed set of factors and cultural leanings.
Social skills don't invent technology, that's why I don't consider it intelligence. I don't consider physical prowess as intelligence either.

I don't "need" people of African descent to be considered less intellegent than whites anymore than I need whites to be less intellegent than Asians. I think figuring out these differences and why they happen can benefit humanity as whole.
 

iPaul93

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You have to be delusional to believe in a creationist style fairy tale that all creatures referred to as "humans" are all exactly the same despite the fact that they evolved under very different conditions with different genetic factors that result today in very obvious differences beyond just the fact that some have different skin color. How do you manage the mental gymnastics to believe in evolution for every species on the planet except the one you're a part of?
 
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JordanN

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IQ has some issues, but there's a war between people who overuse it and people who completely dismiss it. That war hurts everyone.

I would say that in regards to Africa, malnutrition in the early years of development is one factor that has shown to impact general intelligence and Africa's child survival rate and early years nutrition has been in the dumps for decades. It's only recently been improved and it would be worth seeing how the betterment of child nutrition helps the IQ scores of Africa.
While malnutrition can be a factor, where do you think malnutrition comes from?

Lack of food? Why is that? Because the infrastructure and government are not properly supporting one another? Now look at who is in charge of government.

This is the vicious cycle Doctor Watson is talking about Africa. To have a functioning government and societal infrastructure requires relatively smart individuals.

It's not a coincidence nearly all African governments are corrupt. Now combine that with lower average IQ and you get issues like famine and lack of proper healthcare.

 
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Pumpkin Seeds

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While malnutrition can be a factor, where do you think malnutrition comes from?

Lack of food? Why is that? Because the infrastructure and government are not properly supporting one another? Now look at who is in charge of government.

This is the vicious cycle Doctor Watson is talking about Africa. To have a functioning government and societal infrastructure requires relatively smart individuals.

It's not a coincidence nearly all African governments are corrupt. Now combine that with lower average IQ and you get issues like famine and lack of proper healthcare.

Corruption is common through history, so I'm not sure what the point here is in response to me. I am saying the culture doesn't value its best minds. Corrupt, non-functional governments show that.
 

mckmas8808

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Social skills don't invent technology, that's why I don't consider it intelligence. I don't consider physical prowess as intelligence either.

I don't "need" people of African descent to be considered less intellegent than whites anymore than I need whites to be less intellegent than Asians. I think figuring out these differences and why they happen can benefit humanity as whole.
Intelligence isn't just about inventing stuff. Once again you are making the same mistake others are making. Okay let me think of another one of putting it. Who's more intelligent?

Person A: Scores a 140 on an IQ test and had a 3.8 GPA in high school and graduated summa cum laude. This kid goes to college and starts finding out going to parties are more fun than studying. He ends up getting suspended out of college to never go back. Subsequently he 35 years old and finds it hard to keep a job because he's addicted to alcohol and is trying to raise two kids by two separate mothers that he's constantly trying to pay child support for because he's not with either of the women.

Person B: Scores a 93 on an IQ test and had a 2.5 GPA in high school. This kid also goes to college and finishes with a 4 year degree. Never attempted any drugs and never liked drinking alcohol. Had sex with 2 women in college (both times using protected sex) and one of the two women ended up being his wife. Now he's 35 years old and works as a Marketing Director at a Fortune 500 company. His two kids have money set up for them to go to college (where they'd only have to pay 50% of the cost, not including any scholarships).


Which is what happens. Third world geniuses get sucked up by western nations that want to exploit they're smarts and leave behind their home nations that resent their smarts. Maybe sometimes you shouldn't still be Jenny from the block.

.
This is a good point too. Migration within the last 50 years really makes this hard to test for.

mckmas8808 mckmas8808
No one who is well versed in this subject believe no smart black people exist. It's where the averages lie that makes the difference.


Do you really believe white people are 33% smarter on average than black people? Honest question.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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What proof does anybody have that people with African heritage are by "nature" dumber than the rest of the world? And lately, I've noticed that the racist like to credit the white human genes that have mixed with people of African heritage as to why black people in America have achieved a lot on the intellect side of things.

Clearly, there's something making you believe that black people by nature, just aren't as smart. Why do you need this in your life? You say it yourself that you believe it's mostly socio-political issues. So why leave any percentage to be genes as to why you think black people are less intelligent?
The Data. The Data that has been shared throughout this thread and a simple scholar.google search, or Elsevier search, or [insert reliable and relevant journal here] search. Never did I mention the "white human genes" as that would simply refer to the genes that code for specific melanin production (such as MC1R) which has no notable relation to intelligence that science currently recognizes. Please don't try to push some disingenuous BS by pulling the "racism" card.

As for the second paragraph: I will reiterate what I stated earlier. The Data. The Data that has been shared throughout this thread and a simple scholar.google search, or Elsevier search, or [insert reliable and relevant journal here] search. The data has shown multiple factors that would lead to the lower IQ of people native to the African region. I stated that I believe socio-political issues to be primary factor as that is what current data leads me to believe while the genetic factor-while present-is almost negligible. This is no different than West African peoples producing stronger sprinters on average. The comparison to other races is nearly negligible - but there still exists a difference.
 

RedVIper

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Intelligence isn't just about inventing stuff. Once again you are making the same mistake others are making. Okay let me think of another one of putting it. Who's more intelligent?

Person A: Scores a 140 on an IQ test and had a 3.8 GPA in high school and graduated summa cum laude. This kid goes to college and starts finding out going to parties are more fun than studying. He ends up getting suspended out of college to never go back. Subsequently he 35 years old and finds it hard to keep a job because he's addicted to alcohol and is trying to raise two kids by two separate mothers that he's constantly trying to pay child support for because he's not with either of the women.

Person B: Scores a 93 on an IQ test and had a 2.5 GPA in high school. This kid also goes to college and finishes with a 4 year degree. Never attempted any drugs and never liked drinking alcohol. Had sex with 2 women in college (both times using protected sex) and one of the two women ended up being his wife. Now he's 35 years old and works as a Marketing Director at a Fortune 500 company. His two kids have money set up for them to go to college (where they'd only have to pay 50% of the cost, not including any scholarships)
The first person is still more Intelligent than the first. Being intelligent doesn't mean you do well in life, it helps and there's plenty of correlation between the two.
You're giving one example when we're truly speaking about averages, on average more intelligent people do better than less intelligent ones, that obviously doesn't mean that if you have 150IQ you're going to be better of than some one with 100IQ every time.
 

iPaul93

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I will allow it. I welcome it. But I welcome all of the test and analysis, not just the stuff I want to be true. There's so many times white people during Western socieity's history have said black people aren't smart or as smart as they are. And many times over the last 400 years we've have always kept proving them wrong.

1. Slaves aren't smart enough to understand words written in the English language.

Then we have



2. Blacks aren't smart enough to become scientist


Then we had




3. Black women especially aren't smart enough at mathematics


Then we had



4. Black people aren't smart enough to be Quarterback in the NFL


Then we had




5. Black people aren't smart enough to be President of the "Free World" (America)



Then we had







So now yall have made a cheat code to finally "PROVE" once and for all you guys are smarter than us genetically by using IQ scores as the baseline. And if we question that, we are the "PC" ones. We are the ones holding back useful research and understanding. Come on man, you're better than this. Fight against that urge to believe and follow what you were taught as a kid. Open your mind and think logically.




You too are failing at understanding what "intelligence" is. You think using NASA scientists shows you some level of intelligence. Yet you don't account for the level of intelligence someone would need to survive in the wild without access to modern day technology. What you deem to be intelligence is too narrow. I'm almost begging you guys to open your mind to what intelligence looks like. I can see why ssolitare bowed out the converstation and decided to not talk to you guys about this. Your bias is too thick.
How come 3 out 5 are obviously mixed?:messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

JordanN

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Do you really believe white people are 33% smarter on average than black people? Honest question.
The poorest whites score higher than the richest black people in University.

In fact, all of university follows the exact same pattern. The higher average IQ = the higher scores.
It has nothing to do with wealth, race is a bigger predictor of high scores.

 
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Tesseract

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he's an old badger fuck, of course some of his views are gonna be tilted

LAME ass shit to nuke a scientists achievements over this kinda shit, makes me resent humanity
 

JordanN

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What proof does anybody have that people with African heritage are by "nature" dumber than the rest of the world? And lately, I've noticed that the racist like to credit the white human genes that have mixed with people of African heritage as to why black people in America have achieved a lot on the intellect side of things.

Clearly, there's something making you believe that black people by nature, just aren't as smart. Why do you need this in your life? You say it yourself that you believe it's mostly socio-political issues. So why leave any percentage to be genes as to why you think black people are less intelligent?
I hate to use this language but compare Africa and Europe before both continents came in contact with each other.

Even before the advent of colonialism, which continent had the most advance civilizations?

Even just looking at the Roman Empire was technologically farther ahead than some African civilizations in the 1800s.

The Zulu had Iron Age weapons but lacked any metal plated armor or their own sea-borne warships.

Africa, whether from its extreme isolation or environment, just wasn't going to compete against Europe or Asia from an intellectual stand point.

This is not their fault though because the course of evolution dictated Africans are perfectly suited for their environment. But this also meant other environments where intelligence was more important for survival (i.e Europe or Asia) would gain an upper hand in IQ points.
 
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FireEmoji

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Imagine making legitimate contributions to the scientific community only to have your credit -- not your work, not the actual contributions, which are still being happily exploited and monetized -- revoked by some ideologues.
He had the "titles" given to him from the lab he worked at removed.

That has nothing to do with credit for his work.

Like these:

Chancellor Emeritus, Oliver R. Grace Professor Emeritus, and Honorary Trustee.
In the same press release they said:

Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory acknowledges and appreciates Dr. Watson’s substantial scientific legacy, including his role as founding director of the Human Genome Project and his critical leadership in the development of research and education at the Laboratory during his prior tenure as Director and President.
You know, giving him credit for his work which is pretty much impossible to take away, hence it wasn't.

What posesses you people to invent such dramatic crap about some racist losing his job?
 
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FireEmoji

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Did he receive those titles because he walked the straight-and-narrow and avoided saying racist things in the past?

Or because of his scientific contributions?
What does any of this have to do with how wrong and overly dramatic your post was?

You are welcome for correcting you.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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What does any of this have to do with how wrong and overly dramatic your post was?

You are welcome for correcting you.
Woah. It only took two sentences and you're already posturing and going in with the vague dismissals.

I'll take that to mean you don't have anything else to contribute to the topic at hand.
 

Dice

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Genes doesn't make sense as the answer and it looks like he was just guessing based on the results but it could just as easily be upbringing related which I would find to be much more likely.
You want a prime example look at North & South Korea. Since they were split basically every metric of bodily and mental health and ability has strongly favored South Korea but they have the same genetics. This guy knows how to run tests to mine data but not how to interpret it.
 

FireEmoji

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Woah. It only took two sentences and you're already posturing and going in with the vague dismissals.

I'll take that to mean you don't have anything else to contribute to the topic at hand.
He didn't have credit removed, you said he did.

Address that like an adult and don't deflect. I'm the one dismissing? What a crock of shit.
 
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Ke0

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And so begins the intellectual decline of the western world. In the future when Asia will lead in scientific advancement/discoveries, historians can clearly look back and answer the question of "what went wrong?" with "intersectionality".
More like the decline of American intellect, but it's decline started ages ago, America is currently on an anti-intellect tear. It denies climate change because god or whatever nonsense, hates the educated, is all about anti-vax nonsense, wants to kill off public education wholesale, you guys actually push fucking creationism like...what in the fuck is that even about. And there are absolutely no signs of any of these things reversing, then you made a TV show personality your President…again because your country thinks wealth is the best indicator of intelligence which is telling since like what? 60% of your population makes $50k or less which suggests a large portion of your populous sees itself as idiots who need to be ruled by the rich. Lastly your country accelerates the rate at which higher education is becoming unaffordable for middle America.

You guys have been fucked, but don't put that on the rest of Western countries, education wise, many of us in the EU continue to do very well on that front.
 
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M1nion

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He’s 90!? The fuck? Look shit is different then compared to now. Dude still did the shit out of Science. Why drag him through the mud now? Wait....... they did the same thing with Einstein.
 

RedVIper

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You want a prime example look at North & South Korea. Since they were split basically every metric of bodily and mental health and ability has strongly favored South Korea but they have the same genetics. This guy knows how to run tests to mine data but not how to interpret it.
Unsure how this is relevant. The point is comparing people with diferent genetics.
 

llien

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One theory is those who reproduced with Neanderthals had higher IQs. Ironic as modern mockery paints Neanderthals as idiots.
Welp, there is the following:
1) North Africans have higher IQ than south Africans
2) Some of the Asians in US beat white population at IQ, but some lag far behind (e.g. Thailand)
3) India averages at IQ of 82 (I am frankly confused on how IQ measurements work across the countries, perhaps there are tests which are not country/language specific), yet Indians in US out earn even Ashkenazi Jews. (average income of 102k+, vs 97k+)
 

haxan7

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Ask yourself, where did Democracy come from? Where did modern medicine come from? Where did the first automobile come from?
They came from societies where the framework to invent these things were in place.

Based on your line of reasoning, the ultimate conclusion one has to draw is that a random white man somehow miraculously born into a tribal culture in the savannahs of Africa would, through his raw intelligence and power of will, invent all the trappings of western civilization simply by being born.

We can extend this to any culture not as developed as modern western society. Based on your reasoning, anyone born as a Bedouin - an Arab desert dwelling people who even today number in the millions - are equally as inferior to “civilized whites” as any African tribesman.
 

RedVIper

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They came from societies where the framework to invent these things were in place.

Based on your line of reasoning, the ultimate conclusion one has to draw is that a random white man somehow miraculously born into a tribal culture in the savannahs of Africa would, through his raw intelligence and power of will, invent all the trappings of western civilization simply by being born.

We can extend this to any culture not as developed as modern western society. Based on your reasoning, anyone born as a Bedouin - an Arab desert dwelling people who even today number in the millions - are equally as inferior to “civilized whites” as any African tribesman.
Again this only apply to averages. If you disagree with an argument fine but at least disagree with what's actually being said.
 

JordanN

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Welp, there is the following:
1) North Africans have higher IQ than south Africans
2) Some of the Asians in US beat white population at IQ, but some lag far behind (e.g. Thailand)
3) India averages at IQ of 82 (I am frankly confused on how IQ measurements work across the countries, perhaps there are tests which are not country/language specific), yet Indians in US out earn even Ashkenazi Jews. (average income of 102k+, vs 97k+)
India can be explained.

There is a caste system. At the very top are the Brahmins. They are the elites of Indian society.

Correct me if wrong, but according to Indian history, there use to be 2 tribes. Aryans (who came from Europe), and a more primitive South Asian tribe.
The Brahmins are the ones who descended from the Aryan conquerors and didn't interbreed as much with the primitive tribes.

The Indians who migrated to the U.S are the ones belonging the highest caste in India, explaining their higher than average intelligence.

Also, India has a population of 1.3 billion. Even if you took 1% of that, you would still end up with a large group of people whose IQs are 105 or higher.
But if you're talking what 50% of India's population is, then their IQs would be closer to the national average of 82.
 
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llien

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If you're going to start listing blacks peoples achievements and white's people achievements I think you're going to lose that battle.
That wasn't his point though, he made a valid argument of "blacks can't" with actual facts showing that, indeed blacks can.

No one who is well versed in this subject believe no smart black people exist. It's where the averages lie that makes the difference.
That's true, but how do you figure what part of that difference is caused by genetics? (I have ruled out the possibility that you'd say social/historical context doesn't matter, as apparently being able to afford more expensive education has very apparent impact on IQ test results).

To have a functioning government and societal infrastructure requires relatively smart individuals.
Want to talk about influence that historic context has? North Korea vs South Korea? Perhaps Eastern Germany vs Western Germany? ;)
Not so long ago, Greek would refer to Germans as barbarians, but which of the two countries is FAR more advanced today?

The poorest whites score higher than the richest black people in University.
It proves exactly nothing, at best it "hints".

I hate to use this language but compare Africa and Europe before both continents came in contact with each other.

Even before the advent of colonialism, which continent had the most advance civilizations?
But why Europe and Africa? Why not Europe and China, say, 3k years ago?
Within Europe itself, you had cradles of civilization in the south, while North is way more advanced today.
 
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llien

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The Indians who migrated to the U.S are the ones belonging the highest caste in India, explaining their higher than average intelligence.
Are you making things up or do you have actual figures showing that most of Indian migrants are Brahmins?

I interact with Indians a lot. Out of people I had contact with, only a handful were Brahmins (most were vegetarian). In a (ever growing) group of developers from Tamil Nadu provence (Southern India) I interact with, out of 30+, two brightest ones are not Brahmins.

Google's CEO (Sundar Pichai) is Brahmin though (also from Tamil Nadu, curiously).

As for skin color, a very small % of them had much darker skin, the rest looked more or less the same.

It's the lowest caste Indians who face most discrimination.


Also, India has a population of 1.3 billion. Even if you took 1% of that, you would still end with a large group of people whose IQs are 105 or higher.
That is a valid argument.

I would return to Asians though. So why is that some Asians score better than whites, but some (Thailand) much worse from "it's because genetics" perspective?
 

JordanN

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That's true, but how do you figure what part of that difference is caused by genetics? (I have ruled out the possibility that you'd say social/historical context doesn't matter, as apparently being able to afford more expensive education has very apparent impact on IQ test results).
According to Rushton's research (read it here), genetics is 50% and environment is 50%. So basically half.

Other research concludes it can be as high as 80% genetics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/
The heritability of intelligence increases from about 20% in infancy to perhaps 80% in later adulthood. (ii) Intelligence captures genetic effects on diverse cognitive and learning abilities, which correlate phenotypically about 0.30 on average but correlate genetically about 0.60 or higher. (iii) Assortative mating is greater for intelligence (spouse correlations ~0.40) than for other behavioural traits such as personality and psychopathology (~0.10) or physical traits such as height and weight (~0.20).

Want to talk about influence that historic context has? North Korea vs South Korea? Perhaps Eastern Germany vs Western Germany? ;)
Not so long ago, Greek would refer to Germans as barbarians, but which of the two countries is FAR more advanced today?
Actually, this point is exactly what I've wanted to talk about in regards to how important IQ is.

North Koreans have the same blood as their South Korean neighbors. North Korea is more impoverished, however, their system of government is based on autarky.
I'm not going to defend North Korea because it's a hellhole, however, their society attempts to be self reliant. Without a High IQ, how do you think they manage to do that?
Especially when they're under sanctions and their only ally is China. Yet they can still build rockets and send satellites into space.

Regarding the Germans and Greeks, before the widespread knowledge of DNA testing, I cannot fault Europeans for seeing each other as distinct. However, they still belong to the race.

But why Europe and Africa? Why not Europe and China, say, 3k years ago?
Within Europe itself, you had cradles of civilization in the south, while North is way more advanced today.
I agree with comparing Europe to China, and in that aspect, Asia was still very competitive.

Asia at one point came close to conquering Europe but were repelled a second time.
 
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JordanN

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Are you making things up or do you have actual figures showing that most of Indian migrants are Brahmins?

I interact with Indians a lot. Out of people I had contact with, only a handful were Brahmins (most were vegetarian). In a (ever growing) group of developers from Tamil Nadu provence (Southern India) I interact with, out of 30+, two brightest ones are not Brahmins.

Google's CEO (Sundar Pichai) is Brahmin though (also from Tamil Nadu, curiously).

As for skin color, a very small % of them had much darker skin, the rest looked more or less the same.

It's the lowest caste Indians who face most discrimination.
I'll have to do more research to see what the actual % of Indian immigrants are Brahmins vs Southern India.



llien said:
That is a valid argument.

I would return to Asians though. So why is that some Asians score better than whites, but some (Thailand) much worse from "it's because genetics" perspective?
Similar to India, I believe it comes down to how humans migrated and interbred through the course of history.

So Thailand and the rest of East Asia may share a common ancestor, but Southern Asia may have bred with tribes that were lower IQ.

 
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OSC

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That's not really what happened, he gave the example of homosexuality but said if the mother wanted to abort her because because he was heterosexual it would be equally as valid.
I think people would be more in favor of perfect contraception, than actual abortions. Some take it despite the cell being a machine, its potential to build a human in the right environment should give it rights.(by that notion my future 3d bioprinters should have rights too....).

That said I think within reason people should be able to genetically engineer and customize offspring, designer babies if you will. Of course crippling babies should probably be forbidden, but enhancing them past human limits should be allowed. Extraordinary beauty, agelessness, superhuman intellect, regeneration, cancer immunity, super immune system(a crocodile can have open large wounds in swamp waters, and face no consequence from the vast bacterial exposure, if he's relatively healthy. ), some insects also appear to have extraordinary defenses.

Even single individuals should be allowed to breed with the aid of artificial wombs.
My problem with this is that, when you think about it, it kind of proves that racists can be good - even exceptional - scientists, so the idea that we should shun, avoid, or ignore racist people means we may be giving up good science, progress, and knowledge. Now, if racist people made universally terrible scientists, that be a different thing. But if you can be racist and discover the double helix, then maybe being racist shouldn’t be the career ending, go die in a hole problem that we seem to think it is...
Thing is, his claims might be controversial, but if they are actually true, which some debate, truth and reality cannot be racist no matter how controversial it may be.

Claiming pygmies might have trouble getting into the NBA, is not a racist statement.
 
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For some reason, there will always be people that "NEED" humans of African heritage/blood to be less intelligent than other races.
That's true, but alternatively, there will always be people that NEED all the races to be equal in every way, it's a concept as crucial to how modern civilization functions as the concept of God used to be in the past.

So I don't think this is an issue you could ever get a straight 100% objective answer to, there's just too much political and cultural baggage.

For what it's worth I'm not at all sold on the idea that race correlates with intelligence, but to play Devil's advocate if it WAS proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that not all races are equal intelligence wise it's important to remember that would not be an argument for violence or treating anyone shabbily, you'd have the Neo Nazi type fringe that'd want that but I think most people could agree to avoid that.

Some aspects of how society functions might have to be rethought, but it wouldn't have to be the end of the world.

Maybe "equality" is overrated and instead what we need to be focused on is compassion? Even if there were provable racial differences in intelligence it wouldn't mean everyone is not still human and not still worthy of being treated with respect and fairness.
 

Dice

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Unsure how this is relevant. The point is comparing people with diferent genetics.
Because if the groups you are comparing have massively different nurturing, you have to bear in mind just how much of a factor nurturing can make before drawing conclusions about their nature based on the end results you are seeing. The best way to understand the potential impact of nurture is to look at forced differences on populations with the same genetics.
 

Greedings

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Imagine making legitimate contributions to the scientific community only to have your credit -- not your work, not the actual contributions, which are still being happily exploited and monetized -- revoked by some ideologues.
Imagine having such an enlarged ego after winning a Nobel Prize that you'd promised to cure all cancer and all disease using vitamin C, and yet haven't had a single important contribution to science for decades.
 

ArchaeEnkidu

Vincit qui se vincit
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Imagine having such an enlarged ego after winning a Nobel Prize that you'd promised to cure all cancer and all disease using vitamin C, and yet haven't had a single important contribution to science for decades.
It is almost like you have no clue how science works. James Watson still published research and data for years after the 1953 seminal paper. You don't need to "cure cancer" to provide important contributions to science. Much of science isn't "break through" papers, but small incremental findings that lead up to those "break throughs".
 

mckmas8808

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The first person is still more Intelligent than the first. Being intelligent doesn't mean you do well in life, it helps and there's plenty of correlation between the two.
You're giving one example when we're truly speaking about averages, on average more intelligent people do better than less intelligent ones, that obviously doesn't mean that if you have 150IQ you're going to be better of than some one with 100IQ every time.
And this is where me and you have a huge disagreement. I don't view intelligence as how high someone can score on a test. Someone that's good at test, yet can't make good decisions isn't some super intelligent person in my mind. Your view of intelligence is extremely too narrow. It's like asking what do you look at when you are trying to find out who is the most athletic person. You would be the guy "ONLY" looking at speed, whereas I'd be looking for speed, strength, jumping ability, flexibility, etc.
 

Greedings

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It is almost like you have no clue how science works. James Watson still published research and data for years after the 1953 seminal paper. You don't need to "cure cancer" to provide important contributions to science. Much of science isn't "break through" papers, but small incremental findings that lead up to those "break throughs".
I work in academia.

You're missing my point. He made grand, extravagant claims, with no basis in reality and no data to back them up. He did it over and over again, and has been considered a crank among the scientific community for decades. Yet that didn't stop him coming up with his vitamin c cure-all bullshit.

He's been writing review articles and opinion pieces for ages, with no novel findings, yet is still given grant money thanks to his name.
 

mckmas8808

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India can be explained.

There is a caste system. At the very top are the Brahmins. They are the elites of Indian society.

Correct me if wrong, but according to Indian history, there use to be 2 tribes. Aryans (who came from Europe), and a more primitive South Asian tribe.
The Brahmins are the ones who descended from the Aryan conquerors and didn't interbreed as much with the primitive tribes.

The Indians who migrated to the U.S are the ones belonging the highest caste in India, explaining their higher than average intelligence.

Also, India has a population of 1.3 billion. Even if you took 1% of that, you would still end up with a large group of people whose IQs are 105 or higher.
But if you're talking what 50% of India's population is, then their IQs would be closer to the national average of 82.
Did you just credit white people genes (Europe) as to why certain people from India score very well on the IQ test? And where did the more primitive South Asian tribe of people derive from?
 

Idiocracy

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/1815

Intro to DRD4. The distinguishing trait of the common alleles is that there's a repeating segment with different numbers of repetitions in different alleles

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181986/

Intro to the common alleles and that they differ between populations. So, for instance, the 7R (7 Repeats) variant of the gene is very rare in Asians but 39% of the population in Africans. There's more variations but these are the common

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0014162

Individuals with more then 7 repetitions had a significantly higher risk of cheating and promiscuous behavoir.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2013.00502/full
Some info on some of the observed effects of the 7R allele

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004390050166
Some info on the population distribution of 7R
[/quote][/QUOTE]
May be you missed it because I didn’t quote you the right way, but your second link doesn’t seem to support your conclusion that 39% of Africans have the 7R variant of DRD4. Did I read it wrong?
 

mckmas8808

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No one who is well versed in this subject believe no smart black people exist. It's where the averages lie that makes the difference.


I just realize that this chart on the black and white IQ distribution seems to claim that your average black person is "Borderline Intellectual Functioning" or "Borderline Mentally Retarded" and at BEST scores as "Average" intellectually.

 

MDS

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[/QUOTE]
May be you missed it because I didn’t quote you the right way, but your second link doesn’t seem to support your conclusion that 39% of Africans have the 7R variant of DRD4. Did I read it wrong?[/QUOTE]

No, you're right. I was quickly copy-pasting info because I was at work and misread it.

Africans are weird outliers on the DRD4 stuff. There's more variants kicking around Africa then elsewhere and new research seems to indicate that the 7R originated might have outside of Africa and then trickled back in and was selected for in non-settled populations.
 

Idiocracy

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May be you missed it because I didn’t quote you the right way, but your second link doesn’t seem to support your conclusion that 39% of Africans have the 7R variant of DRD4. Did I read it wrong?[/QUOTE]

No, you're right. I was quickly copy-pasting info because I was at work and misread it.

Africans are weird outliers on the DRD4 stuff. There's more variants kicking around Africa then elsewhere and new research seems to indicate that the 7R originated might have outside of Africa and then trickled back in and was selected for in non-settled populations.[/QUOTE]

THanks, feel free to back up your initial statement when you have the time.