Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere

[Death Penalty]

This looks a lot better than I thought it would, but this is not what a fan would expect or want if you told them a new Nosgoth game was coming out. That's the biggest problem, fans aren't getting what made them love the setting in the first place. A competitive arena deathmatch game is about as antithetical to the original games as you can get to the point that I don't think anyone should be surprised by the backlash.

 

[Snapshot King]

IMHO, it's probably a bit premature to say whether or not something "sucks" until you've had a chance to play it for yourself.

After all, similar accusations were levelled at Soul Reaver by original Blood Omen fans.

Really man? I understand it's your job and all, but this is likely the most disingenuous comparison I could even draw if I tried. This free to play IP cash in, compared to what is the best game in the series and the one that gave it it's definitive identity? Or are you implying that this would be a new Soul Reaver, in that all future games would follow this template, representing an unmitigated disaster for the series worse than death?

 

[Einbroch]

What does this even mean?

The Witcher sells well and is relevant in today's gaming world. Kain is not. You can't use an analogy about The Witcher when the series is nowhere in the same boat as LoK, as LoK has not had a game released in over 10 years.

 

[Ahasverus]

Why did you just cancel Dead Sun, we would be more accepting about this one if it was released alongside Dead Sun, why, why do you left us in the dark while chasing an audience that might or might not be there. Why

 

[Doomshine]

Hey you guys can do whatever crazy multiplayer game you want if you give me the PS2 LoK games on PSN. Deal?

 

[Mackins]

The Witcher sells well and is relevant in today's gaming world. Kain is not. You can't use an analogy about The Witcher when the series is nowhere in the same boat as LoK, as LoK has not had a game released in over 10 years.

You knew what I was getting at though!

 

[Scythian]

Really man? I understand it's your job and all, but this is likely the most disingenuous comparison I could even draw if I tried. This free to play IP cash in, compared to what is the best game in the series and the one that gave it it's definitive identity? Or are you implying that this would be a new Soul Reaver, in that all future games would follow this template, representing an unmitigated disaster for the series worse than death?

This is clearly not trying to be a sequel, it doesn't even have "The Legacy of Kain" in it, it's just a spin-off, jeez. All this talk about "rape" and the like is just ridiculous.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The Witcher sells well and is relevant in today's gaming world. Kain is not. You can't use an analogy about The Witcher when the series is nowhere in the same boat as LoK, as LoK has not had a game released in over 10 years.

In a sense, you're right. It would make more sense to make an elf vs human vs <whatever> deathmatch game based on the Witcher, since those who want the single-player story driven game still have games coming out for them. Kain, not so much.

 

[Zetta]

Damn this looked bad and chaotic. The news of the Nosgoth being a F2P Multiplayer online game hurt. This and Breath of Fire 6 being what it is were the worse game release news I heard last year. I want to give this game a chance but even if I do it'll just remind me of what it was and kill any excitement to play it.

 

[Snapshot King]

This is clearly not trying to be a sequel, it doesn't even have "The Legacy of Kain" in it, it's just a spin-off, jeez. All this talk about "rape" and the like is just ridiculous.

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but go back through my posts and find out where I used the word rape. Good luck with that.

 

[Monkeythumbz]

Edit: Unless Dead Sun retconned now established events which I'm not aware of.

Bingo!

Edit 2: The Wiki even mentions the game is not a reboot.

http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_Kain:_Dead_Sun

I didn't say it was a reboot, I said it was an in-continuity reboot, just like J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies.

Really man? I understand it's your job and all, but this is likely the most disingenuous comparison I could even draw if I tried. This free to play IP cash in, compared to what is the best game in the series and the one that gave it it's definitive identity? Or are you implying that this would be a new Soul Reaver, in that all future games would follow this template, representing an unmitigated disaster for the series worse than death?

No, what I'm saying is that, prior to the release of Soul Reaver and off the back of previews for that game, a lot of Blood Omen fans wrote a lot of angry letters to magazines saying how they thought the new game was some kind of an abomination and a travesty and that it shouldn't be allowed to be made given how different it was from LoK:BO1's isometric hack-&-slash Action-RPG formula. I remember reading them and it almost put me off Soul Reaver even though I'd never played LoK:BO1 (...and still haven't, truth be told - played *all* the others, though!). In fact, it did delay my purchase until I could get LoK:SR1 on the cheap (sorry, Crystal Dynamics - I was young and foolish!).

The only comparison I'm making is that people were angry - I'm not commenting about whether or not it was justified.

 

[Einbroch]

You knew what I was getting at though!

Oh, I know, and it stings for fans a bit if you're not into this game. But it's better than nothing. It was either this game, which potentially may revive the franchise, or nothing. They're not making this game instead of a new LoK. They're just making this game.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

even though I'd never played LoK:BO1 (...and still haven't, truth be told

Fuckin' wow. XD

 

[BibiMaghoo]

That's not the definition of reboot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reboot_(fiction)


Again, not the definition of a reboot. It still involved the same universe. See my quote above. The Elder God is still the same Elder God that Kain and Raziel fought. Kain and Raziel were not recreated nor was Nosgoth's backstory. In regards to timeline, that was changed a lot just by all the time traveling.

By that definition of a reboot, then I guess not. It would still have been very far removed from the events of previous games and characters, and that means it is not really a Legacy of Kain game. Soul Reaver got away with this because Kain was present from the start and end of the game, and their stories were heavily interconnected. A new character playing a story around different events without such a link cannot do the same I think. Still, I guess it's academic only at this point. The game was cancelled after all.

 

[Mackins]

I'd never played LoK:BO1 (...and still haven't, truth be told - played *all* the others, though!).

Sorry but you've lost all credibility now.

Spoiler

Only messing!

 

[Snapshot King]

Bingo!

I didn't say it was a reboot, I said it was an in-continuity reboot, just like J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies.


No, what I'm saying is that, prior to the release of Soul Reaver and off the back of previews for that game, a lot of Blood Omen fans wrote a lot of angry letters to magazines saying how they thought the new game was some kind of an abomination and a travesty and that it shouldn't be allowed to be made given how different it was from LoK:BO1's isometric hack-&-slash Action-RPG formula. I remember reading them and it almost put me off Soul Reaver even though I'd never played LoK:BO1 (...and still haven't, truth be told - played *all* the others, though!). In fact, it did delay my purchase until I could get LoK:SR1 on the cheap (sorry, Crystal Dynamics - I was young and foolish!).

The only comparison I'm making is that people were angry - I'm not commenting about whether or not it was justified.

Yeah, but Soul Reaver was at the very least a game made by competent people with similar goals. The same thing happened with RE4 and look how that turned out. Instead of comparing this game to Soul Reaver, its more likely cousin is the X-com shooter.

Yknow what I think? I think your higher ups decided they wanted to cash in on this free to play arena shooter/moba market, and scrounged the back catalogs for IPs and that's the one that worked, and all this talk about being good to the series is after the fact because of course that's what you folks would say.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Bingo!

So it did retcon events? Okay, assuming that's the case may I get an example or two? Because I haven't heard anything like that. If it did, I would hope they would have fixed it as it's more likely in error than intentionally doing so but then we can excuse all the time travel, so I don't know what they had planned there. But again, I've provided clear definitions of reboot which is actually rewriting the characters, story, settings, etc. none of which this seems to do. I would even again point to the Wiki which says it's not a reboot and exists within established LoK continuity.

I didn't say it was a reboot, I said it was an in-continuity reboot, just like J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies.

Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness is a weird example because of the way that universe (multiverse) is structured. Yes, it is both in-continuity and a reboot because it deals with time traveling causing a new universe to be created with duplicate characters. I won't argue it's a good example of an "in-continuity reboot" but the LoK universe doesn't seem structured this way. Kain's story (or Raziel's, etc) didn't change as a result of time hopping for example. Even with all the wacky time travel, it still remained the same universe. I would imagine Dead Sun still takes place in the same universe and I would have to say that's the key. It's not a reboot in any way, shape or form.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

So does the xp stay with you from map to map or do you start over after every map?

Also, are there going to be xp boosts/weapon upgrades/perks you can buy with real money or is it all cosmetics?

 

[Taker34]

even though I'd never played LoK:BO1 (...and still haven't, truth be told

What?! In case you have a PS Vita, get it for like 5&#8364; and try it. Never played it until 3 weeks ago (BO2 was already a masterpiece imo) and it's definitely worth playing.

 

[Monkeythumbz]

Why did you just cancel Dead Sun, we would be more accepting about this one if it was released alongside Dead Sun, why, why do you left us in the dark while chasing an audience that might or might not be there. Why

Game projects can be cancelled for a variety of different reasons and I know it&#8217;s very hard to tell from images and info alone, but in the end Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun just wasn&#8217;t the right game, at the right time&#8230; but you&#8217;ll have to take me at my word on that, I&#8217;m afraid. I know it&#8217;s disappointing to hear about these things out of context.

Fuckin' wow. XD

I have read the entire script and watched the entire game in LetsPlay format, though. I'm fully aware of its events, otherwise I wouldn't be able to leverage the [redacted] or [redacted] for the [redacted] we're building.

So it did retcon events? Okay, assuming that's the case may I get an example or two?

Yes it did and no you can't. Sorry, I've probably said too much about it already... suppose I'll find out from my boss next week!

Yeah, but Soul Reaver was at the very least a game made by competent people...

Ouch.

Yknow what I think? I think your higher ups decided they wanted to cash in on this free to play arena shooter/moba market, and scrounged the back catalogs for IPs and that's the one that worked, and all this talk about being good to the series is after the fact because of course that's what you folks would say.

You may think that and while I know there's nothing I can do or say to convince you otherwise (while being contractually bound), events really didn't occur like that.

 

[ickingfudiot]

So does the xp stay with you from map to map or do you start over after every map?

Also, are there going to be xp boosts/weapon upgrades/perks you can buy with real money or is it all cosmetics?

XP is persistent, there are no in-match upgrades like in, say, DOTA.

That said, leveling up is not an upgrade path. Higher level characters are not more powerful and there's no "unlock progression". There are rewards at specific levels (both overall, and per class) for prestige things like skins or in-game badges, but there's no power progression involved.

You can buy XP boosters for money, and you can shortcut access to new weapons or perks with money, but all gameplay relevant items (weapons, abilities, perks, etc.) are obtainable via in-game currency and it's not balanced such that it's some heinous grind to get a single weapon.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

dat lucrative arena shooter market

it's not balanced such that it's some heinous grind to get a single weapon.

so it is heinous grind to get all the weapons then?

you lost me at unlocking weapons unfortunately. I'm sure I'm in the minority though.

 

[Scythian]

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but go back through my posts and find out where I used the word rape. Good luck with that.

Well, I wasn't refering to something you said, sorry if you misunderstood me. A few posters have been very hyperbolic about this.

 

[Snapshot King]

Ouch.


You may think that and while I know there's nothing I can do or say to convince you otherwise (while being contractually bound), events really didn't occur like that.

Hey, I wan't to apologize, my statement was not meant in two parts, it was meant as a whole. My point was that Soul Reaver was by a different team, but it was Crystal D, so the worries of quality didn't ring true. I'm certain everyone on your team is competent, but who are they, even? They're certainly not Crystal D.

All I know is that I hope everyone involved in this at a high level decision loses their jobs. Wadas already gone, so that's likely half of my wish right there, if I had to guess.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yeah, but Soul Reaver was at the very least a game made by competent people with similar goals.

#truthfact

Yknow what I think? I think your higher ups decided they wanted to cash in on this free to play arena shooter/moba market, and scrounged the back catalogs for IPs and that's the one that worked, and all this talk about being good to the series is after the fact because of course that's what you folks would say.

It's obvious to all but the most naive, honestly.

 

[Monkeythumbz]

So does the xp stay with you from map to map or do you start over after every map?

It carries with you from map to map. You build up a stable of characters for both factions, each with their own XP.

Also, are there going to be xp boosts/weapon upgrades/perks you can buy with real money or is it all cosmetics?

Yes, but only as sidegrades. The game is designed to function from the stating load-out - if, however, you find you prefer playing as more of a lone-wolf sniper or damage-soaking tank, then you can customise your build to make those options available to you either by grinding or microtransactions.

The in-game store is something we're looking forward to getting player feedback about in Closed Beta, but we're committed to being 10% free of pay-to-win mechanics. We're building a skill-based game.

 

[Archaix]

Yeah, but Soul Reaver was at the very least a game made by competent people with similar goals.

That's harsh. Overly so, but it really does highlight what I've believed about this game, Syndicate, XCOM BANG BANG, and all of the other terrible reboots that were actually serviceable or better games that were burdened by being nothing like the series they were attached to. Everybody would have been better served by a game that had no ties to a previous IP. It's only breeding ill-will and bad feelings towards a game based on nothing the game itself does.

 

[ickingfudiot]

dat lucrative arena shooter market



so it is heinous grind to get all the weapons then?

you lost me at unlocking weapons unfortunately. I'm sure I'm in the minority though.

No. Also, the weapons are all sidegrades, so you don't have to unlock anything if you don't want to. Many players stick with the defaults.

 

[Finn of Ooo]

I think this game looks pretty fun, vampires seem a little OP at the moment but other than that Im looking forward to trying it out.

 

[Snapshot King]

That's harsh. Overly so, but it really does highlight what I've believed about this game, Syndicate, XCOM BANG BANG, and all of the other terrible reboots that were actually serviceable games that had another IP attached. Everybody would have been better served by a game that had no ties to a previous IP. It's only breeding ill-will and bad feelings towards a game based on nothing the game itself does.

I completely agree with you. But hey, slap on old IP on it, it'll sell better, all publicity is good publicity right?

 

[Orniletter]

That's harsh. Overly so, but it really does highlight what I've believed about this game, Syndicate, XCOM BANG BANG, and all of the other terrible reboots that were actually serviceable games that were burdened by being nothing like the series they were attached to. Everybody would have been better served by a game that had no ties to a previous IP. It's only breeding ill-will and bad feelings towards a game based on nothing the game itself does.

Add Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts to the list.

A good game that wouldn´t have received the hatred if Rare had
released a "real" mainline game alongside it.

And that is the real problem: If Dead Sun was still on the horizon, we weren´t in the situation we are in now.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Yes it did and no you can't. Sorry, I've probably said too much about it already... suppose I'll find out from my boss next week!

Wait, you'll find out from your boss if it did retcon events? So was this even known at all by someone, say, big fans of the series like Mama Robotnik?

Even if it did retcon certain things, it's arguable. Again, reboot is defined as restarting a story or franchise. Hence, a reboot would be a new "Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain" for example. Even retcons don't usually imply a reboot. More often than not, it means whatever's been retconned (and I doubt Dead Sun retconned all or even most of the events in the LoK games) is no longer considered part of that continuity.

But I've already more than provided multiple clear examples of why Dead Sun is not a reboot so with that, I think I'm done talking (derailing perhaps) about this.

 

[Monkeythumbz]

That said, leveling up is not an upgrade path.

...at the moment. We are still in Alpha, after all.

Hey, I wan't to apologize, my statement was not meant in two parts, it was meant as a whole. My point was that Soul Reaver was by a different team, but it was Crystal D, so the worries of quality didn't ring true. I'm certain everyone on your team is competent, but who are they, even? They're certainly not Crystal D.

Hey, no worries, no offence taken, not even slightly. The game is being developed by Psyonix out in San Diego, and they're a great bunch of people - you can find out more about them on our blog here.

#truthfact

Oh, you!

 

[Monkeythumbz]

Add Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts to the list.

A good game that wouldn´t have received the hatred if Rare had released a "real" mainline game alongside it.

Funnily enough, I was the Community Manager on that game too... feels like a lifetime ago now, though! #vinegarstrokesFTW

 

[ShinobiFist]

Game looks fun, but it could have been a different IP. But that's the way I feel about every Mario game as well, lol.

 

[Snapshot King]

So were this to be a gigantic commercial failure, whats the likelyhood of whoever's idea it was losing their job, or at least not being allowed to make these decisions in the future? How does an F2P game like this become a failure exactly, not managing to recoup costs?

 

[Archaix]

Add Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts to the list.

A good game that wouldn´t have received the hatred if Rare had
released a "real" mainline game alongside it.

And that is the real problem: If Dead Sun was still on the horizon, we weren´t in the situation we are in now.

Well Nosgoth doesn't openly mock fans of the series and try to make them feel bad for wanting a real fucking sequel to the game.

At least, not that we know of yet.

 

[Snapshot King]

Well Nosgoth doesn't openly mock fans of the series and try to make them feel bad for wanting a real fucking sequel to the game.

At least, not that we know of yet.

Just wait until the gameplay reveal of the Soul Reaver power up.

 

[Monkeythumbz]

Wait, you'll find out from your boss if it did retcon events?

No, I'll find out from my boss if I revealed too much!

So was this even known at all by someone, say, big fans of the series like Mama Robotnik?

No, MR doesn't know the game's story in full.

Even if it did retcon certain things, it's arguable. Again, reboot is defined as restarting a story or franchise. Hence, a reboot would be a new "Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain" for example. Even retcons don't usually imply a reboot. More often than not, it means whatever's been retconned (and I doubt Dead Sun retconned all or even most of the LoK games) is no longer considered part of that continuity.

But I've already more than provided multiple clear examples of why Dead Sun is not a reboot so with that, I think I'm done talking (derailing perhaps) about this.

Maybe in-continuity retcon is a more appropriate definition... like I said, whatever J.J. Abrams' new Star Trek movies are, it was similar in definition to those.

So were this to be a gigantic commercial failure, whats the likelyhood of whoever's idea it was losing their job, or at least not being allowed to make these decisions in the future? How does an F2P game like this become a failure exactly, not managing to recoup costs?

I have no idea I'm afraid, I'm not a Producer.

Just wait until the gameplay reveal of the Soul Reaver power up.

N-n-n-n-n-n-never gonna happen.

 

[Mackins]

Just wait until the gameplay reveal of the Soul Reaver power up.

They wouldn't surely? Haha

 

[Mackins]

Who is your boss Monkey? Does he visit Gaf?

 

[Monkeythumbz]

Who is your boss Monkey? Does he visit Gaf?

My line manager (i.e. "boss") is SlyRebirth, but he's not on the Nosgoth team. And yes, *everyone* on the team - be they at Square Enix or at Psyonix - reads GAF. I'm assuming they're reading this thread right now.

Hmmm ...better watch what I say...

...BUY OUR STUFF!!!

;-)

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Maybe in-continuity retcon is a more appropriate definition... like I said, whatever J.J. Abrams' new Star Trek movies are, it was similar in definition to those.

With that (I know you can't talk about it so I don't expect an answer), I'll assume Dead Sun involved time travel elements that significantly changed certain events and maybe (and I would have a hard time believing this) the main characters. Still, while we didn't change characters, we definitely altered events multiple times throughout the series already. However, I still stand by my belief that is not a reboot as the term is defined as well as Divine Shadow's apparent source mentioned on the LoK Wiki who said it was also not a reboot.

 

[Mackins]

My line manager (i.e. "boss") is SlyRebirth, but he's not on the Nosgoth team. And yes, *everyone* on the team - be they at Square Enix or at Psyonix - reads GAF. I'm assuming they're reading this thread right now.

Hmmm ...better watch what I say...

...BUY OUR STUFF!!!

;-)

Hahaha they should give you a pay rise mate, you've been thrown to the wolves a bit in here. You've done well though despite the odds.

 

[Monkeythumbz]

Hahaha they should give you a pay rise...

Mum, is that you?

;-)

 

[Snapshot King]

N-n-n-n-n-n-never gonna happen.

You say this, but I'm certain if I asked someone inside Square Enix a few years ago about bringing Legacy of Kain back as a free to play deathmatch game I'd get a similar answer.

 

[Vodh]

Well, shit, might as well instal that beta.

 

[Orniletter]

Funnily enough, I was the Community Manager on that game too... feels like a lifetime ago now, though! #vinegarstrokesFTW

I feel so bad for you

 

[Solid Samus]

Completely unproven. There is not a single case of this working in this way.

I don't think that's true at all and there's a bevy of franchise revivals and reboots last generation to show for it, popular games that are somewhat removed from what their predecessors were that helped to revitalize franchises

 

[spacemonkeynation]

This looks great. I can't wait to try it out. I
Would have prefered an epic single player Soul Reaver game, but I'm not going to be an emotional cry baby about it and pretend this game doesn't look compelling.