Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Not literally, but those silly crossbows were pretty much the same thing.
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Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere
- Thread starter Acidote
- Start date
My thoughts exactly, scrap this game, go back to the drawing board, start a Kickstarter and make an open world RPG on new gen and PC.
I would gladly pay for that, you would have to pay me to play this iteration though.
Go back to your bosses and give them what feedback you've received in here.
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I'm sorry to say this, so please don't take this the wrong way, but just because you (specifically) are not in our target audience, doesn't mean we don't have a viable one.
Darkmakaimura
Member
I do respect Monkey for coming here and responding civilly to us disappointed fans of the franchise. He/she is taking their time out - and quite a bit of it as seen from this thread - to answer questions.
I'd still like to know why MP was chosen over SP. Monkey said earlier because of assets and waiting for the right time, but when is that? I mean, if assets mean things like getting Simon Templeman and Michael Bell, it could've easily been a Nosgoth SP without the main characters, taking place in another time, etc. Templeman shouldn't be too hard since he recently voiced the villain in Dead Space 3, btw but again, a "side game" would have been fine with me.
The "right time" part bothers me a bit though since who thought it was the "right time" to release a TPS Arena Shooter? The "right time" for that would have been, as I and others have suggested, an external component to a SP game. To be honest, when I saw what was posted as being a "right time", it honestly makes me think we'll never see a proper LoK game anytime soon.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I understand that the reality of the current market makes a single player only experience based on a mid tier IP like Soul Reaver very hard.
I get what Monkeythumbz is trying to imply on his arguments (and clearly he cares about the IP) and probably the devs tried his best to mix that world into a PvP only action game, which clearly is something that is hard to combine with the Nosgoth world.
But, the problem, whatever jarring aspects is there with the mythos or not, is that when I look the game I don't see a Soul Reaver game, there isn't any of the elements that I came to love with the series. The sense of isolation, the exploring, the plataforming, the puzzles...is not there, and whats worst, the visual identity built on several games is lost as well. The game could be called "Vampire wars" and no one would noticed that it was supossed to be based on Soul Reaver.
I might try the game, but not because is a based on the Soul Reaver IP, but rather it looks fun. That's why I feel is a shame is attached to such IP, because the game should stand on his own without being looked with bad eyes with fans of the original games.
I get what Monkeythumbz is trying to imply on his arguments (and clearly he cares about the IP) and probably the devs tried his best to mix that world into a PvP only action game, which clearly is something that is hard to combine with the Nosgoth world.
But, the problem, whatever jarring aspects is there with the mythos or not, is that when I look the game I don't see a Soul Reaver game, there isn't any of the elements that I came to love with the series. The sense of isolation, the exploring, the plataforming, the puzzles...is not there, and whats worst, the visual identity built on several games is lost as well. The game could be called "Vampire wars" and no one would noticed that it was supossed to be based on Soul Reaver.
I might try the game, but not because is a based on the Soul Reaver IP, but rather it looks fun. That's why I feel is a shame is attached to such IP, because the game should stand on his own without being looked with bad eyes with fans of the original games.
So fans of the series aren't your target audience? You want to bring new players in but alienate the fans of the series in doing so? Seriously?
Messofanego
Banned
ESPORTS NOM NOM NOM!
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol? It certainly fired more like a modern assault rifle than a real crossbow. Because we know that actual crossbows, with reloading and all, are not viable weapons in twitch deathmatch shooters. >_<
I'm sorry to say this, but there is no way to not take this "the wrong way", since the only way LoK fans can read this is "screw you, you're not who we care about". Or "we just want that PvP monies and we don't care if we alienate you, the LoK fan, in the process".
This was asked several times before, and all we got were vague evasions. Don't expect any kind of answer, I'm afraid.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Fine, because you seem like a nice guy I'll start a petition/dummy kick-starter/whatever IF you take back the feedback you got here to your bosses.
HAHAHA! The 2nd para, feel kinda bad for you now. No pressure though. The problem is that if the game is bad, that's it, Kain is buried for good. However, if the game is good then what guarantee is there that you won't make Nosgoth 2 as opposed to a proper RPG
EDIT:
I think I'll go to the Thief 2014 forums and high five the developers for having the balls to make a single player game PERIOD regardless of quality in this kind of industry
BibiMaghoo
Member
FYI, Templeman has been very busy in the industry over the last few years, with VO work on all three Uncharted games, Mass Effect 1 and 2, Dragon age, DarkSiders, Diablo 3, Kingdoms of Amalur etc.
Bell's most recent work seems to be Alpha Protocol, and League of Legends.
They are both still working in the industry.
So screw the fans right since i am not your target audience but using LoK IP for this? I am pretty disappointing reading this and such a nerve not having the balls to make a new great singleplayer game smh.
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
No, we want fans of the original games too - both most of the people in our Closed Alpha who say they enjoy the game and most of the regulars on our official forum are long time fans of the series. I appreciate that it's hard to see cross-over between fans of the SP games and fans of MP games, but some people do like both. Heck, when I was playing SR2 and Defiance I was also loving the stuffing out of Unreal Championship 2 at the time.
Anyway, we're adding more content to the game that makes it more recognisable to LoK aficionados, it's just that in-game content isn't developed overnight. (I really wish I could share it with you now as it would help my case enormously, but I can't. Sorry!)
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Oh, I'm fairly certain that the reason for no new LoK game isn't because Templeman isn't available. XD Guy is so talented he should be swamped with work, but sadly he's wasted on minor roles or mediocre games. Sigh.
DrGonzo615
Banned
close quarters combat looks like a complete clusterfuck. We get THIS instead of a proper Legacy of Kain?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol? So what? I was also enjoying Crash Bandicoot at the same time I was playing Blood Omen, doesn't mean I want a crossover. e_e
Darkmakaimura
Member
Didn't realize Templeman was in so many games as I only recall him from DS3 recently, but that's pretty much my point. Both actors are still alive and willing to work.
But, I would be more than happy - and sure others would - with just a SP LoK (or LoK universe aka Nosogth) game even if it didn't include the iconic protagonists.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Because it is cheaper to make and you don't have people trading it in as much.
They didn't think their game was going to make it's money back so they stopped on the single player game. Simple as that. It isn't like Square is swimming in money even if they finally posted some profits.
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
We're trying to do something new and different, plus we honestly feel the approach fits in well with LoK as an IP, even if it's not what the series long-time followers were expecting or crying out for.
I have every confidence we'll reach a level of success because our moment-to-moment gameplay is rock solid and tons of fun, but I suppose only time will tell and only a fool makes cast-iron predictions without access to a Chronoplast.
Darkmakaimura
Member
With that kind of logic, might as well make every game that was once SP that a company doesn't think anyone cares about anymore into an only-MP experience.
So then why call it Nosgoth or Legacy of Kain at all? Could have still had the game and just called it something else. I guess the answer to that is, yes, it's cheap to make and they can still try to lure fans, despite the fact it's pretty much an insult to most fans.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Apparently being a fan of LoK means you're predisposed to not liking multiplayer games. Somehow, that's the logical conclusion you all reached.
Moral Panic
Member
Doesn't look that good. Never heard of this IP before, but not really liking the camera in particular. I can't really see any reason to be interested in this. Needs more colour maybe? Not sure.
Poor SE community manager... but I really didn't expect other reactions when a game like this gets developed and is even remotely connected to an appreciated franchise like LoK - even if it is just a spin-off.
I doubt Nosgoth players will care about the LoK lore and LoK fans are still pissed off
because this isn't what they wanted, after a decade of disappointment.
The game does look good but I wonder why it didn't become its own franchise to begin with. I can already taste the saltiness... the devs deserved better.
I doubt Nosgoth players will care about the LoK lore and LoK fans are still pissed off
(with good reason)
The game does look good but I wonder why it didn't become its own franchise to begin with. I can already taste the saltiness... the devs deserved better.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
I agree they shouldn't shoehorn IP into something it's not but they are a business. Every big studio is putting multiplayer into every game for the reason of not trading it as fast. It is horrible and a waste of money, stop buying these games.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Just to clarify, people are mostly pissed because it has been ELEVEN YEARS! since the last game. If they made Assassin's Creed: Kart tomorrow nobody would care because a mainline Creed game comes out every year. Now here we have a zombie of an IP which even had a cancelled revival in the form of Dead Sun and the best they can give us is a multiplayer shooter? Say this game is a success, what are the chances of a genuine RPG down the line?
It means I'm predisposed to wanting a proper LoK title, rather than a F2P shooter.
I just don't feel it's doing the IP justice and doesn't make sense to those who have waited a decade or more for a proper sequel.
Square Enix are definitely giving EA a run for their money as the worst gaming company. They used to be my favourite a long time ago, how times change.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Read how you replied to what he actually posted. What you typed implies fans of the game can't be part of the target audience for this game when what he said is they're targeting people who are in to multiplayer games. You're implying that fans of LoK can't be fans of multiplayer games.
Like seriously? Really?
That's fine, but don't assume everyone interested in LoK's lore feels the same way or wouldn't be interested in this at all.
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
I'm afraid I'm really not in a position to answer that with any degree of accuracy... but a bloody good one, hopefully!
I mean, the Soul Reaver series is what attracted me to working at Eidos/Square Enix Europe in the first place and I know I'm by no means the only one. There are a lot of fans of the series here, and I do mean beyond people just on the Nosgoth team.
Nosgoth isn't a reboot or a sequel and isn't trying to be; it's not trying to replace what's come before but merely expand upon it. It's more of a spin-off - if it's not your thing, feel free to ignore it. After all, there genuinely are lots of people who have a good time with the game already.
Darkmakaimura
Member
A lot of studios put the MP as separate but part of an SP game which was what originally was done.
And yes, Square is a business and a mighty successful one that is involved with plenty of projects as we speak.... LR FFXIII, Bravely Default, Thief, etc. Hell, they kept Thief, a AAA title, a SP game. They're taking a chance with retro JRPG styles in Bravely Default and they're releasing another FF sequel despite supposedly the XIII series waning. So there's no excuse they can't at least attempt a SP LoK game.
BibiMaghoo
Member
To be honest I'm glad Dead Sun was cancelled. That is not what I want at all. Legacy of Kain is exactly that, not Legacy of some random dude. His tale has not ended, and still his original goal is unfulfilled. A new single player game would have been preferable to a multiplayer one, but a reebot of that nature was almost as offensive to the franchise, in my view.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
By the looks of things you guys were chewed up and spat out and I feel bad for you.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now and see where this goes. I'll play your game and give a proper review and see if the lore holds up as you say it does. Just know that if you announced plans for an SP game and put hints into Nosgoth then all this complaining would stop. Fingers crossed eh?
Vae Victus!
Darkmakaimura
Member
Perhaps I'm misreading this, but Dead Sun most certainly was not a reboot. It was part of the series.
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
I can categorically confirm that Nosgoth was a separate game from the beginning and is very much a unique game in its own right. It was related to the single-player game in terms of a shared art direction, but was always set in an entirely different time period and features different mechanics, characters, levels and gameplay. It isnt and never was just a multiplayer version of the single-player game. Had Dead Sun shipped then Nosgoth would have been its multiplayer companion game. However, to categorize it as the "the multiplayer component of Dead Sun pulled out and fleshed out" isn't really accurate, nor does it do the game justice IMHO.
Have fun! You can find our server schedule here: http://www.nosgoth.com/servers
Dead Sun was an in-continuity reboot, a bit like the new J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Not at all. It means it's not what we want from a Legacy of Kain game. We've made that very clear several times, so I'm gonna chalk up that misunderstanding to deliberate obtuseness at this point.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
So it was always going to be f2p just reusing assets from the SP game. Not that there is anything wrong with that. M&M X is one of my favorite games so far this year and it reuses tons of stuff from HoMM 6
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
And you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, however please bear in mind that it might not be an opinion that's shared 100% universally by all LoK fans ever.
BibiMaghoo
Member
As I understand it, the game was to take place far in the future after the events of defiance, with new characters, and a story about the elder god, not Kain. So when I say reboot, I mean of the franchise itself, with the Kain games being a part of it's history, rather than a continuation of their events.
I certainly do not want that as the 6th Legacy of Kain title, though It would be preferable to nothing at all.
Darkmakaimura
Member
That's not the definition of reboot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reboot_(fiction)
Dead Sun did not discard continuity or recreate characters, the timeline, backstory, etc. It was just a sequel that took place in the distant future and still involved established characters from the franchise.
Again, not the definition of a reboot. It still involved the same universe. See my quote above. The Elder God is still the same Elder God that Kain and Raziel fought. Kain and Raziel were not recreated nor was Nosgoth's backstory. In regards to timeline, that was changed a lot just by all the time traveling.
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
To be honest, it all feels so long ago and apart from certain bits in the first three maps, pretty much everything you see in-game now has been generated as its own original, distinct project.
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
Yes and no. Its narrative rewrote a lot of the pre-established continuity, just as the J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies did. Also, it didn't really utilise established series characters (apart from in the broadest possible terns), not sure where you got that from.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
and you think some of the fans are mad now, lol
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Based on this thread, I'd say it's a damn significant majority. Or do you want me to gather all the negative posts from alienated fans for you?
Not that it'd really mean much anyway, mind you. It's still a disgrace. I mean, I watched those videos and saw absolutely nothing that reminded me of LoK or Nosgoth. Nothing in the art, or music, or atmosphere, big fat zero. Your lore is tight, you say? Pray tell, how does one experience this lore? By doing a leap attack on an enemy player and watching the XP pop ups make them feel like a badass?
Darkmakaimura
Member
By that logic, the game was rebooted multiple times due to the time travel that places in the already existing games. Also, because something takes place in the distant future and may not even refer to or utilize past characters, does not make it a reboot. A reboot recreates the existing characters, setting, etc. none of which Dead Sun does. In other words, a reboot would be recreating the events in Blood Omen with possibly a different looking Kain, etc.
Edit: Unless Dead Sun retconned now established events which I'm not aware of. In that case, I would hope they would have fixed that before it would have been released.
Edit 2: The Wiki even mentions the game is not a reboot.
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_Kain:_Dead_Sun
Monkeythumbz
Communications Manager, nDreams
NeoGAF != all gamers everywhere.