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Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer

Vorundor

Member
Nov 19, 2012
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Balamb Garden
It doesn't matter what in-game rationalizations you can come up with, these areas still look like boring crap. LoK is known and loved for its awesome gothic and dark fantasy architecture. Some wooden shantytown, even if you can explain it away with your fanfiction in-game lore, is still completely uninteresting. Someone said it looks like a rejected map from Tomb Raider, and I agree.

Yes, please make the architecture richer and true to the gothic feel. I can't pull up exact articles but I do remember numerous pieces written specifically about how the architectural design of the past games was such a strong point.

Despite all of this, I still signed up for Beta. I don't very much like how we are going back to the world of Nosgoth but I'll give the game a try as its own entity. I do ask, however, that some of the feedback is taken into consideration specifically in the way the maps look. Please, make them look like they belong in the already established atmosphere of the universe. It would sit much better with people if the game at least felt more like Nosgoth than just by name.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Jul 23, 2010
31,070
6
720
www.metal-archives.com
I'm sorry you feel that way and with respect, I disagree. Let's break it down.

We know why Kain throws Raziel into the pit. We also know Kain is patiently waiting for Raziel's return when he emerges, even going so far as to say he expected Raziel to arrive at the Sanctuary of the Clans sooner. We *also* see that Kain hasn't suffered any of the effects of Nupraptor's curse over time in the same way as the other Lieutenants and their Clans. AND we also know that Kain has kept a somewhat light touch on his Empire during Raziel's time in the Abyss, given Rahab's comments in the Drowned Abby, apparently only making an appearance every so often when he sees fit and demonstrating a knowledge of future events. Additionally, Kain actively demonstrates a disregard for his Lieutenants (as well as their offspring and his whole Empire in general) and would have no reason to share his intricate plans to salvage Nosgoth and reclaim his role as the Scion of Balance with them. Plus, we also know Kain has access to and has been actively using the Chronoplast. Therefore, it seems overwhelmingly likely that Kain had skipped forwards through time, and not long after Raziel had been cast down judging by his not-as-devolved-as-the-Lieutenants appearance.

Therefore, Kain physically isn't around during the majority of Raziel's time in the Abyss,
That seems like a funny conclusion to make. Kain's empire is in decay and he was time travelling sometimes, therefore, this? Whatever.

It's overwhelmingly likely, therefore,
If you say so. e_e

So PLEASE don't denigrate our narrative efforts by (a) calling it "fanfiction" and (b) using that word in an undeservedly pejorative sense.
Sorry you feel denigrated, but I call it like I see it, and besides, "narrative efforts", lol? I could call it a "narrative effort" if it were a single-player story-driven game where narrative actually matters, but you're making a deathmatch game. Give me a break.

I mean, it's true in one sense in that we're fans and it's fiction, but we've gone to as greater lengths as possible to make sure nothing contradicts pre-established canon
Okay.

and actually expands what we know of this era in interesting ways
And that's where you lose me. Obviously we differ in what "interesting" means. And I know I'm not alone here.

Fair enough, and your entitled to your opinion, however let's take a look at Blood Omen. Uschtenheim and Nachtholm weren't exactly on the same scale as Willendorf or Avernus, were they?
That seems like a paltry excuse; you have an opportunity to make majestic evil cathedrals and fortresses, but instead you pick crappy wooden shantytowns as levels? I'm aware it won't be the only map, but for a trailer you'd want to showcase your best, so forgive me if I'm completely underwhelmed by the art direction (and that's being kind). Besides, in the older games, even the smaller-scale environments looked cooler than what we saw in the trailer. This is a Blood Omen mod of Nachtholm, and that already looks more inspiring, and of course Uschtenheim was in Soul Reaver 2 and looked pretty damn awesome and totally in line with the LoK artistic feel.

Not everything is as fully built up as the Human Citadel. And, naturally, we want to hold onto some of the more impressive content for later use. So, please give us a chance, we're still growing.
See above.

Okay.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Mar 18, 2012
14,501
45
680
Oh MonkeyThumbz. If I somehow miss the live Q and A would it bother you if I sent a PM containing a list of questions about this iteration of the series regarding gameplay mechanics?

All depends on my work schedule.
 

Monkeythumbz

Communications Manager, nDreams
Jun 8, 2012
413
0
490
London, UK
twitter.com
Technically it's "tomorrow" now, so…

That seems like a funny conclusion to make. Kain's empire is in decay and he was time travelling sometimes, therefore, this? Whatever.
I don't feel you're taking all the evidence into account. What about Kain's comparative lack of devolution? Why would he have he allowed Dumah to be staked? Why was his empire in such disarray when Raziel emerged from the Abyss? Why, given the nature of his character, would he even bother sticking around and waiting for Raziel to emerge from the Abyss when he has the Chronoplast at his disposal? All of this points to Kain having skipped forwards through time and the rest is logical progression.

Sorry you feel denigrated, but I call it like I see it, and besides, "narrative efforts", lol? I could call it a "narrative effort" if it were a single-player story-driven game where narrative actually matters, but you're making a deathmatch game. Give me a break.
I think you underestimate the amount of world-building involved in *any* game set in the LoK universe. I mean, we've written a Bible, not all of which will probably ever be revealed in its entirety (although I did just paraphrase a chunk of it). We do have plans to convey the history of this era to Nosgoth's players, however it isn't in moment-to-moment gameplay.

And that's where you lose me. Obviously we differ in what "interesting" means. And I know I'm not alone here.
Sure, absolutely, but you're also not of the only opinion going. Nevertheless, I get that you don't like our approach and that's okay. I can't force you to, nor would I want to, and we're hyper aware that Nosgoth won't appeal to every single long-time LoK fan around. Nevertheless, I'm still of the firm opinion that Nosgoth is a valid and credible entry in the series' canon.

That seems like a paltry excuse; you have an opportunity to make majestic evil cathedrals and fortresses, but instead you pick crappy wooden shantytowns as levels? I'm aware it won't be the only map, but for a trailer you'd want to showcase your best, so forgive me if I'm completely underwhelmed by the art direction (and that's being kind). Besides, in the older games, even the smaller-scale environments looked cooler than what we saw in the trailer. This is a Blood Omen mod of Nachtholm, and that already looks more inspiring, and of course Uschtenheim was in Soul Reaver 2 and looked pretty damn awesome and totally in line with the LoK artistic feel.
Both the examples you give are in the land of Nosgoth's pre-corruption era, whereas our game is set during Kain's decaying Empire, so I don't think they're a fair comparison. Also, please consider you're comparing snatched glimpses of maps from a trailer to environments in which you've had full, 360-degree playthroughs. Moreover, bear in mind the inherent differences in the development approach to live games and traditional boxed/on-disc titles - our trailer is composed of pre-Alpha content and, as I say, the game will be growing and evolving over time. I seriously look forward to showing you what we currently have in production at a later date.

Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to be challenged in this way. I'm not saying our game is perfect right at this present juncture but the great thing about a live game is that, with the help of your (constructive) feedback, we'll be able to shape and improve on it over time.
 

Whompa

Member
Mar 24, 2012
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I think you underestimate the amount of world-building involved in *any* game set in the LoK universe. I mean, we've written a Bible, not all of which will probably ever be revealed in its entirety (although I did just paraphrase a chunk of it). We do have plans to convey the history of this era with Nosgoth's players, however it isn't in moment-to-moment gameplay.
Curious, if you've written a bible, then why does the studio have such small aspirations? Why not create that world? The IP could be MASSIVE, and it's being used to a third person multiplayer focused kill-fest...

I understand you only have a budget to work under, but man, this is like the chance to make something really special with a really old IP, and it's being turned into yet another run of the mill multiplayer game.

I'm not saying the execution is going to be poor, i'm saying the scope is insanely condensed to the point where it just looks like a huge waste of time.
 

southerncross

Member
Mar 5, 2013
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Man, I won't comment on gameplay (hope it's fun), but plotwise, those comments make me remind why I am wary of prequels and interquels set in a relatively tight continuity. "Hey, it's plausible that it happened!". You have to play it extremely safe (and be boring) or create some ridiculous storylines that expand the universe by betraying fans' previous expectations. If you choose the second option, the new, more detailed subplots have to be strong enough to replace the old ones while not contradicting the established lore. Sadly, most writers can't achieve that.
 

Monkeythumbz

Communications Manager, nDreams
Jun 8, 2012
413
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twitter.com
Curious, if you've written a bible, then why does the studio have such small aspirations? Why not create that world? The IP could be MASSIVE, and it's being used to a third person multiplayer focused kill-fest...

I understand you only have a budget to work under, but man, this is like the chance to make something really special with a really old IP, and it's being turned into yet another run of the mill multiplayer game.

I'm not saying the execution is going to be poor, i'm saying the scope is insanely condensed to the point where it just looks like a huge waste of time.
From where I'm sitting, I wouldn't call our aspirations small at all. I also wouldn't call Nosgoth's gameplay run-of-the-mill, either. Designing and implementing fair and balanced asymmetrical ranged versus melee team-based combat is no small challenge! As for our scope (and I've a feeling that *this* is going to be my repeated phrase for some time to come), what we revealed today is only a part of a bigger whole that we'll be rolling out over time.

Man, I won't comment on gameplay (hope it's fun), but plotwise, those comments make me remind why I am wary of prequels and interquels set in a relatively tight continuity. "Hey, it's plausible that it happened!". You have to play it extremely safe (and be boring) or create some ridiculous storylines that expand the universe by betraying fans' previous expectations. If you choose the second option, the new, more detailed subplots have to be strong enough to replace the old ones while not contradicting the established lore. Sadly, most writers can't achieve that.
I get where you're coming from, but if you read up on all the stuff that was left hanging about this particular era (not just in the games, but cut content, interviews etc.), all we're really doing is turning a lot of not-so-subtle hints and clues into explicit beats in the timeline.
 

Whompa

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Mar 24, 2012
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From where I'm sitting, I wouldn't call our aspirations small at all. I also wouldn't call Nosgoth's gameplay run-of-the-mill, either. Designing and implementing fair and balanced asymmetrical ranged versus melee team-based combat is no small challenge! As for our scope (and I've a feeling that *this* is going to be my repeated phrase for some time to come), what we revealed today is only a part of a bigger whole that we'll be rolling out over time.
ok ok, you win. I'm still pretty optimistic for this franchise, even after all these years. Maybe not this initial outing, but you guys have some good devs, so hopefully you guys can continue to make games in this universe. Thanks for answering my concerns. :D
 

Kard8p3

Member
Jan 22, 2008
11,663
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850
I'm sure there are good intentions behind this game but it's just not for me. Despite that I would like it to succeed because I know if it bombs then Square will just interpret it as no interest in the franchise and they'll put it to bed for good.
 

lordchompy

Member
Sep 16, 2012
825
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NY
Nine long years have I slept in my prison of purgatory.

Tortured by nightmares of poor sales, passing friends, and of an uncertain future,
I awoke to a new nightmare made reality, a blackened abyss where my glorious
Nosgoth once was.

It had felt like I was only gone for a brief spell,
but in the blink of an eye a millennia seemingly had passed,
my once haunting and decrepit Nosgoth was replaced by a series vapid,
soulless arenas, each more depressing than the last.
Gone were the menacing Pillars, obelisks of our damnation,
and yet a reminder of our world's morose beauty.
My ignoble kin reduced to player avatars,their poorly animated bodies circling
each other like carrion over a dying animal.

Was death at the cruel blade of retail not enough punishment for Kain's transgressions? We are inflicted this malady by the conniving, omnipresent god.
I have seen its tainted touch destroy before;
Its name is Square-Enix.



The necromancer Mortanius,
Phil Rogers
--

You will have the new Legacy of Kain game you hunger for, Raziel. It is your destiny, reaper of free-to-play souls.
 

Gaz_RB

Member
Apr 1, 2013
15,617
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*sniff* Such little effort.

edit: Damn, I've been trying to be more positive about games I haven't played. If they get the universe right, this could be interesting. Unfortunate that it's multiplayer-F2P, as historically those don't turn out to be as good as the earlier games in the IP's that they use. I wish we were getting a single player adventure to go along with this one, but I guess LoK isn't really popular enough to warrant a full fledged next gen entry. We'll see how it turns out.
 

NeededSleep

Member
Jun 4, 2010
1,443
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One of my most memorable IPs that took me in with its lore and gameplay... Now reduced to multiplayer arena combat. :(

No one asked for this.
 

Negator

Member
Feb 5, 2009
6,911
0
0
I feel sorry for all the Legacy of Kain fans. They are feeling right now the Square-Enix special of pissing off all their fans.

I'm personally not a fan of the Legacy of Kain series, but this game sure as hell isn't going to make me interested in the series. Surely I am not alone.

So if this game isn't for old LoK fans and not for people like me, who is it for exactly?
 

Gaz_RB

Member
Apr 1, 2013
15,617
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0
I feel sorry for all the Legacy of Kain fans. They are feeling right now the Square-Enix special of pissing off all their fans.

I'm personally not a fan of the Legacy of Kain series, but this game sure as hell isn't going to make me interested in the series. Surely I am not alone.

So if this game isn't for old LoK fans and not for people like me, who is it for exactly?
Poor people.
 

Darkmakaimura

Member
Dec 12, 2008
11,094
1
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fortune-summoners.wikia.com
The odd thing about all this is I'd rather we get another Blood Omen 2 (considered the worst game in the series) than death match Nosgoth.

Heck, they could have actually saved money and just released a top-down LoK like the original Blood Omen or an isometric Diablo style game and I'd be more happy.

Sure, the game might be fun. Nobody is claiming it's not going to be. It's just not in the spirit of LoK.

Legacy of Legends (yes, I know it's not exactly a MOBA but still....) is not what we want.
 

Deckard Cain

Banned
Sep 3, 2013
1,137
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Listen, MonkeyThumbz

First when you discuss the poor architecture, setting, and lack of feel of a this LoK game and say "Well there are other places is Nosgoth we never saw." is just proof that you and/or the team don't get it. You're right that in a realistic world that is totally the case, that there are varying esthetics to a world. BUT this is not the real world, this is a Lok game and it's "ART" design and level design is created with a strong Gothic styling, uncompromisingly so. As the Art director you COULD feature wooden shacks in the woods, it's very possible and logical they would exist but you DON'T because that's not the Artistic direction of the franchise, and you make concession for that direction.

Any kind of excuse you have is irrelevant. It DOES NOT LOOK FOR FEEL LIKE A LEGACY OF KAIN GAME. If you lose the look and feel you've lost a lot from a game who's origins are based on strong single player experiences which pull from more than anything story, look, feel, esthetics.

Do I as a LoK fan want to know about the battles between humans and vampires during Ravel's time in the Abyss and Kain''s now reticonned absence? Nope. It's like saying if he want to know what happened at Mundus' castle in DMC1 when the demons attacked and took over. Without Dante, Vergil, or any of the main cast, and the continuation fo the story, what's the point? Same thing goes for LoK but even more so given how the series left on a HUGE cliff hanger that has been undressed for nearly 10 years.

There is literally no appeal to me in this game. I don't want a social experience with my LoK game, I don't want a multiplayer game, so I'm not ever going to play it. I'm not going to "give it a shot" because its LoK. That would be stupid of me, the game itself does not look like anything I would play. "But it's free to play" Dude, Candy Crush is free to play and I don't play that, why? Cause it's not something that interests me from a gameplay perspective.

You have thankless job Mokeythumbz and you will feel that thanklessness in the months to come I assure you but it is your job to sell this game. They just gave you something unsellable. The wrong franchise, in the wrong genre, with the wrong goals and ideas in mind. Make no mistake, this will fail as game. No matter how much effort you try to put into damage control it will. You can say it's a good game, a great game and it could be a good game but it wont help. You can not alienate the core the fan base of a game and switch genres and expect things to go well.

The only thing I ask and everyone else here asks is that you got to SE and you tell them. "Listen I went on NeoGaf, there were so many LoK fans there, the series fanbase is very much alive but they want a true sequel and continuation of the franchise."
 

Cwarrior

Member
Oct 31, 2010
4,523
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0
Not like this :( anything but legacy of kain it's the only ip square has the rights to I care about.

Today square Enix has made a life long enemy of me.
 

Diomedeskun

Member
Jun 7, 2004
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Tsuruga, Japan
Monkeythumbs, you have a thankless job. I remember the hate Soul Reaver got originally, with many people saying that it took the rich world of Blood Omen and turned it into a barren, featureless Tomb Raider clone mostly full of block puzzles. Soul Reaver 2 was criticized for stripping challenge and gameplay out for the sake of story (since the humans were a lot less complex to kill than vampires) and for basically just going back and forth across the same strip of land in different time periods. Finally, plenty of people said that Defiance was too linear and lacked any adventure or exploration, making the game into Devil May Cry with vampires. Blood Omen 2 received its share of trash talk as well, but really haven't played much of it, so I can't comment.

On the one hand, what I want out of the series is a single player, story rich game. That's why I loved the earlier games. Raziel and Kain were vivid, fascinating characters with sparkling dialogue and iconic voice actors. The world was memorable for it's stunning architecture and decay, and the history was as rich as it was convoluted (or time-travel mangled).

That said, looking at it from the other perspective, if I were to play a f2p vs arena game, I would sure as hell find it more interesting to be set in Nosgoth than in most other worlds. As much as I love 2D Mario games for having fun platforming and classic Final Fantasy for being accessible RPGs with fun combat, I still really enjoy Mario Kart and Dissidia games.

In the end, it has a decent shot, I actually kind of like the human concepts, and they seem to fit in with Soul Reaver 2 to me. The vampires are ok as well, I suppose. I do, however, hope that other environments are more impressive, because I agree that shantytowns just aren't exciting to play in, especially in the rich Nosgothic setting.

And yet, as much as I want people to give the game a shot in hopes of a new single player game, I really don't know that I will. I just don't think I have enough free time in my life to spend playing a genre I have no interest in in hopes that it will spur a game that likely won't happen. It's really not likely to scratch any of the itch I have for the series, beyond some (hopefully) cool looks at the setting.
 

SerRodrik

Member
Feb 14, 2012
1,186
0
0
MI
Honestly, Monkeythumbz, I have to give you credit for actually being willing to go out there and address fans on this, because lord knows you're going to get a lot of crap thrown your way. Gotta respect that.

Still, I expect I'll never bother to play this when it comes out. I can't remember the last time I played a multiplayer only game for more than a couple hours. It's just not the type of game I enjoy. Heck, I almost never play multiplayer modes even when they accompany single player campaigns I love, because I just don't have any interest in that type of gameplay. And just the fact that it's set in Nosgoth isn't going to make me any more likely to try it out, because it would still literally be missing everything that made that world memorable to me from the previous games.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Jul 23, 2010
31,070
6
720
www.metal-archives.com
Listen, MonkeyThumbz

First when you discuss the poor architecture, setting, and lack of feel of a this LoK game and say "Well there are other places is Nosgoth we never saw." is just proof that you and/or the team don't get it. You're right that in a realistic world that is totally the case, that there are varying esthetics to a world. BUT this is not the real world, this is a Lok game and it's "ART" design and level design is created with a strong Gothic styling, uncompromisingly so. As the Art director you COULD feature wooden shacks in the woods, it's very possible and logical they would exist but you DON'T because that's not the Artistic direction of the franchise, and you make concession for that direction.

Any kind of excuse you have is irrelevant. It DOES NOT LOOK FOR FEEL LIKE A LEGACY OF KAIN GAME. If you lose the look and feel you've lost a lot from a game who's origins are based on strong single player experiences which pull from more than anything story, look, feel, esthetics.

Do I as a LoK fan want to know about the battles between humans and vampires during Ravel's time in the Abyss and Kain''s now reticonned absence? Nope. It's like saying if he want to know what happened at Mundus' castle in DMC1 when the demons attacked and took over. Without Dante, Vergil, or any of the main cast, and the continuation fo the story, what's the point? Same thing goes for LoK but even more so given how the series left on a HUGE cliff hanger that has been undressed for nearly 10 years.

There is literally no appeal to me in this game. I don't want a social experience with my LoK game, I don't want a multiplayer game, so I'm not ever going to play it. I'm not going to "give it a shot" because its LoK. That would be stupid of me, the game itself does not look like anything I would play. "But it's free to play" Dude, Candy Crush is free to play and I don't play that, why? Cause it's not something that interests me from a gameplay perspective.

You have thankless job Mokeythumbz and you will feel that thanklessness in the months to come I assure you but it is your job to sell this game. They just gave you something unsellable. The wrong franchise, in the wrong genre, with the wrong goals and ideas in mind.
Yes, yes, and yes. And yes. Well put.
 

Monkeythumbz

Communications Manager, nDreams
Jun 8, 2012
413
0
490
London, UK
twitter.com
First when you discuss the poor architecture, setting, and lack of feel of a this LoK game and say "Well there are other places is Nosgoth we never saw." is just proof that you and/or the team don't get it. You're right that in a realistic world that is totally the case, that there are varying esthetics to a world. BUT this is not the real world, this is a Lok game and it's "ART" design and level design is created with a strong Gothic styling, uncompromisingly so. As the Art director you COULD feature wooden shacks in the woods, it's very possible and logical they would exist but you DON'T because that's not the Artistic direction of the franchise, and you make concession for that direction
The LoK series has always incorporated more art styles than just Gothic. If you take a look at this post by Daniel Cabuco, who I'm sure needs no introduction, you'll note that the Vampiric structures followed a more Byzantine/Ottoman motif, whereas Human ones were more influenced by European designs, with the original team mixing and matching "mercilessly" between them. Am I saying that what you've seen so far rigidly follows those concepts? No, all I'm saying is that there's greater scope for artistic freedom within the LoK universe than you're postulating.

Do I as a LoK fan want to know about the battles between humans and vampires during Ravel's time in the Abyss and Kain''s now reticonned absence?
Firstly, this really is not a retcon as we're absolutely not changing any part of the continuity retroactively. It has always been both strongly inferred by the original LoK games' development team and speculated by the LoK community that Kain simply jumped ahead through time to meet Raziel and all we're doing is confirming that to be the case.

Secondly, I appreciate that you find this premise uninteresting, really I do - it would be myopic of me to suppose that every LoK fan out there is interested in this era - however yours isn't the only opinion going. Rather than link you to any number of supportive posts on Nosgoth's official forum or even the Eidos Legacy of Kain forums, take a look at this one again from Daniel Cabuco's website.

There is literally no appeal to me in this game. I don't want a social experience with my LoK game, I don't want a multiplayer game, so I'm not ever going to play it. I'm not going to "give it a shot" because its LoK. That would be stupid of me, the game itself does not look like anything I would play. "But it's free to play" Dude, Candy Crush is free to play and I don't play that, why? Cause it's not something that interests me from a gameplay perspective.
That's cool, I don't think anyone's ever designed a game that appeals to absolutely everybody (apart from maybe Mario and Sonic). Even so, i I think it would be great if people were allowed the space to come to form their own opinions about the game rather than be encouraged to have a negative opinion about it without ever having seen or played it. I mean, I don't play Candy Crush either, but I wouldn't hate on people for doing so or the people who made that game (*not* saying that's what you're doing even for a moment, merely expanding the point). Just take a look at the impressions from the hardcore LoK fans who *have* seen and played it I linked to earlier in this thread. So, while this game isn't for you, please appreciate that doesn't necessarily mean it's not for everybody full stop.

You can not alienate the core the fan base of a game and switch genres and expect things to go well.
There is precedent for genre-switching within the LoK series though, and similar comments were leveled at Soul Reaver by Blood Omen fans.

The only thing I ask and everyone else here asks is that you got to SE and you tell them. "Listen I went on NeoGaf, there were so many LoK fans there, the series fanbase is very much alive but they want a true sequel and continuation of the franchise."
Oh don't you worry about that, I beat that drum pretty much every day of the week.
 

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
Sep 2, 2011
18,552
4
0
Ok, probably there will be people interested in this.
and I don't want to piss them off, with my poor interest in the game.
Let me just say that Soul Reaver was one of my favourite games of all time.
A little part of me died watching that trailer.
If I think about the other (PS4?) "normal" game canned...
 

Monkeythumbz

Communications Manager, nDreams
Jun 8, 2012
413
0
490
London, UK
twitter.com
Sorry, meant to reply to this yesterday but had it open in the wrong window.

Bad analogy because there are tons of Star Wars games and a few at that time released. Also, Star Wars games are licensed games that easily get away with cross genre (FPS, TPS, strategy, RPG, MMO, etc.) Legacy of Kain is not Star Wars. It was much more similar to Zelda than anything else.
I don't think that's how we've ever viewed the IP internally, we've always thought that the LoK IP comprised a universe rich and deep enough for multiple complimentary interpretations. Again, check out this quote from Amy Hennig from the September 2000 issue of Official Playstation Magazine.

Re: GLoK Interviews with Amy Hennig said:
"The plan is that in the future we can continue to explore different aspects of Nosgoth's history, with different characters. This is such a rich universe with so much mythology and backstory, and so many interesting players. The analogy we use internally is that we want to establish something like they did with Star Trek or Star Wars - where you have a consistent universe and 'mythology' which can be explored from many different perspectives."
Now, I'm not saying that her team at Crystal Dynamics had an asymmetrical multiplayer game in mind, all I'm saying is that the the LoK universe has been built to be strong enough and broad enough to support this experience.
 

MaLDo

Member
Jun 4, 2009
3,613
1
0
Barcelona
maldotex.blogspot.com
Listen, MonkeyThumbz

First when you discuss the poor architecture, setting, and lack of feel of a this LoK game and say "Well there are other places is Nosgoth we never saw." is just proof that you and/or the team don't get it. You're right that in a realistic world that is totally the case, that there are varying esthetics to a world. BUT this is not the real world, this is a Lok game and it's "ART" design and level design is created with a strong Gothic styling, uncompromisingly so. As the Art director you COULD feature wooden shacks in the woods, it's very possible and logical they would exist but you DON'T because that's not the Artistic direction of the franchise, and you make concession for that direction.

Any kind of excuse you have is irrelevant. It DOES NOT LOOK FOR FEEL LIKE A LEGACY OF KAIN GAME. If you lose the look and feel you've lost a lot from a game who's origins are based on strong single player experiences which pull from more than anything story, look, feel, esthetics.

Do I as a LoK fan want to know about the battles between humans and vampires during Ravel's time in the Abyss and Kain''s now reticonned absence? Nope. It's like saying if he want to know what happened at Mundus' castle in DMC1 when the demons attacked and took over. Without Dante, Vergil, or any of the main cast, and the continuation fo the story, what's the point? Same thing goes for LoK but even more so given how the series left on a HUGE cliff hanger that has been undressed for nearly 10 years.

There is literally no appeal to me in this game. I don't want a social experience with my LoK game, I don't want a multiplayer game, so I'm not ever going to play it. I'm not going to "give it a shot" because its LoK. That would be stupid of me, the game itself does not look like anything I would play. "But it's free to play" Dude, Candy Crush is free to play and I don't play that, why? Cause it's not something that interests me from a gameplay perspective.

You have thankless job Mokeythumbz and you will feel that thanklessness in the months to come I assure you but it is your job to sell this game. They just gave you something unsellable. The wrong franchise, in the wrong genre, with the wrong goals and ideas in mind. Make no mistake, this will fail as game. No matter how much effort you try to put into damage control it will. You can say it's a good game, a great game and it could be a good game but it wont help. You can not alienate the core the fan base of a game and switch genres and expect things to go well.

The only thing I ask and everyone else here asks is that you got to SE and you tell them. "Listen I went on NeoGaf, there were so many LoK fans there, the series fanbase is very much alive but they want a true sequel and continuation of the franchise."

Agree. That looks like a multiplayer fanmade mod using next LoK game assets into community maps. So sad. Incredible gameplay balance can't save the game imo.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Jan 5, 2008
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Guys. Remember that Raziel had to die to be reborn into something much greater. Perhaps the same is true with the LoK franchise.

Or it's eternally doomed to rest inside the Reaver (AKA Squenix IP archive).

I honestly hope that the game is fun, it's free so it won't hurt to try it out, but after the Kain/Raziel tease in Guardian of Light I had hoped they would make a top-down game inspired by the first Blood Omen using the GoL engine. Now that Tomb Raider is rebooted I doubt they'll revisit that style of Tomb Raider game anyway so, puzzle/action platformer with Kain, plz.
 

Darkmakaimura

Member
Dec 12, 2008
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Sorry, meant to reply to this yesterday but had it open in the wrong window.


I don't think that's how we've ever viewed the IP internally, we've always thought that the LoK IP comprised a universe rich and deep enough for multiple complimentary interpretations. Again, check out this quote from Amy Hennig from the September 2000 issue of Official Playstation Magazine.



Now, I'm not saying that her team at Crystal Dynamics had an asymmetrical multiplayer game in mind, all I'm saying is that the the LoK universe has been built to be strong enough and broad enough to support this experience.
Nowhere in that quote even hints at going into different game genres. She's talking about exploring other areas of the LoK universe with different characters or during other time periods which is completely understandable and something I would support 100%. Also, I believe if Amy Hennig was still at the helm, she would not wanted to have LoK go into the direction of an MP battle arena.

Also, as I mentioned a couple times previously, I'm not opposed to even taking the series in a different gaming genre. I'm opposed to bringing out a MP-only arena game years and years after the last LoK release as way to once again bring us back into that world. Going to sound like a broken record, but that should have been done shortly after or alongside a single player campaign. It's like when Halo Wars was released shortly after Halo 3, a game which stuck to the same formula as previous Halo games. The success of Halo 3 allowed them to go from FPS to an RTS side game and hell, Halo Wars was even praised as a good game. But let's assume that Halo 3 never came out and Halo Wars was just released this year. People would be screaming bloody murder just as they're doing here. So, I hope you can see why fans all around like myself are pretty miffed about the direction SE decided to take.
 

Grief.exe

Member
Jul 11, 2012
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Monkey, any idea on when Closed Beta invites are going out? I would love to give this game a try, I really enjoyed Unreal Championship 2

Nowhere in that quote even hints at going into different game genres. She's talking about exploring other areas of the LoK universe with different characters or during other time periods which is completely understandable and something I would support 100%. Also, I believe if Amy Hennig was still at the helm, she would not wanted to have LoK go into the direction of an MP battle arena.
Initially he used that quote to discuss the locations that Nosgoth takes place in. Probably more relevant at that point.
 

ayze82

Neo Member
Feb 19, 2013
34
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Square Enix has a hard enough time learning from its own mistakes, let alone others. With colossal failures like Syndicate and The Bureau. It is amazing that they would think that taking a beloved franchise and using it as a skin would appease fans.
 
Dec 4, 2010
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I'm shocked that fans that got to travel to the offices and play a game before everyone else enjoyed themselves.

I like games where both sides play vastly different, such as Natural Selection. I think just from watching the video though that the humans look really boring.
 

Monkeythumbz

Communications Manager, nDreams
Jun 8, 2012
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People would be screaming bloody murder just as they're doing here. So, I hope you can see why fans all around like myself are pretty miffed about the direction SE decided to take.
Absolutely I can, of course - to date, LoK has been known for its sophisticated narrative and accomplished characterisation. I just hope that, once people get their hands on the game, people appreciate we're trying to add to and even expand people's expectations of the IP, not detract from it.
 

Grief.exe

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Sure, you can sign up form the Closed Beta right now on our website (www.Nosgoth.com). Please don't DDoS us!

Not sure when the invites will be issued, but I'd expect it'll be before Xmas.
I signed up within an hour of it going live.

I'm in the queue for 3 betas right now. Wildstar, Nosgoth, and Hearthstone, not having any luck getting into any of them.

I'm shocked that fans that got to travel to the offices and play a game before everyone else enjoyed themselves.

I like games where both sides play vastly different, such as Natural Selection. I think just from watching the video though that the humans look really boring.
It is pretty cool that Square did that, and if they could win over those guys than they have a great game on their hands.

Humans look the best to me. Of course I prefer skill shots to just straight mauling someone with a melee attack.
 

Agent Gibbs

Member
Apr 8, 2013
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Absolutely I can, of course - to date, LoK has been known for its sophisticated narrative and accomplished characterisation. I just hope that, once people get their hands on the game, people appreciate we're trying to add to and even expand people's expectations of the IP, not detract from it.
Thanks for coming in here and being quite frank and honest and also for donning some asbestos made flame shield! Kudos to you my good sir!

I can't say i'm pleased that the first game in the LoK IP for 10 years (really that long? christ i'm getting old) is a f2p battler style game, its just not what i'd have wanted as a continuation of the ip, that said i'm glad its being resurrected and at least this isn't in the same way they are resurrecting breath of fire.....sorry i digress

But i'm going to give it a chance because i can read between the lines and see this is SE testing the waters, because despite the community and you telling them, sales/downloads etc of existing content is only how executives judge a fan base and its receptiveness to a series and any new entries

so onto a question, realistically and please be as honest as you can to manage our shattered expectations, IF Nosgoth proves successful* what are our chances of a single player continuation of the series? and not just another multiplayer?


*given Tomb Raiders 3.4million sales being classed by SE executives as a dismal failure i have no hope of any SE game meeting their lofty expectations, it must be depressing to work there knowing executives are complete asshats
 

Monkeythumbz

Communications Manager, nDreams
Jun 8, 2012
413
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so onto a question, realistically and please be as honest as you can to manage our shattered expectations, IF Nosgoth proves successful* what are our chances of a single player continuation of the series? and not just another multiplayer?
Firstly, I'm not actually sure that Nosgoth's success is directly tied to the chance of another SP entry in the series. We love the IP and know that it resonates well, so even if Nosgoth was a total flop there's still a chance we'd want to create a single-player LoK experience sometime down the line.

That said, Nosgoth being successful would only help, as hopefully it would expose the IP to new people and make them interested in future titles.

Either way, I am *just* a CM. So I could be talking out of my arse here. Please bear that in mind.
 

bebop242

Member
Jul 18, 2012
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What the fuck did I just watch? I got similar feels from watching the Spyro Skylanders Adventure announcement trailer.
 

Xater

Member
Jul 28, 2007
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Monkeythumbz you are doing a great job of engaging with us and I wouldn't even doubt that the game is fun. The problem is it's just not what I am looking for as a LoK fan just as the Shadowrun game was in 360. Well at least it's F2P so I might still give it a try. If this what's necessary to give a real LoK game so be it.
 

Darkmakaimura

Member
Dec 12, 2008
11,094
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Firstly, I'm not actually sure that Nosgoth's success is directly tied to the chance of another SP entry in the series. We love the IP and know that it resonates well, so even if Nosgoth was a total flop there's still a chance we'd want to create a single-player LoK experience sometime down the line.

That said, Nosgoth being successful would only help, as hopefully it would expose the IP to new people and make them interested in future titles.

Either way, I am *just* a CM. So I could be talking out of my arse here. Please bear that in mind.
Probably a dumb question, but are the actual developers watching this thread? I would hope so in regards to getting a feel for the reactions in regards to this direction.
 

Oceansized

Banned
Jan 6, 2012
53
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I'd just like to say that the Legacy of Kain series is the one IP that, if it were to come back in a single player action game, I would:

Pre Order
Buy a special edition at increased price
Buy a season pass for
Buy DLC
Buy a guide
Buy a console for it (if it were exclusive to that console)

I wouldn't do the above with any other franchise, and I bet there are lots of other people in my position.