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Spoilers Now TLoU Part 2 has been out for a while, let me ask you. (Spoilers)

Did Naughty Dog do the right thing killing Joel?

  • Yes

    Votes: 159 34.0%
  • No

    Votes: 238 51.0%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 70 15.0%

  • Total voters
    467

trikster40

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I prefer the way they killed him to any other death. At least his death caused me to feel emotions. I mean, damn, that was brutal. The scene, the directing, it all came together so well.
 

Ulysses 31

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I prefer the way they killed him to any other death. At least his death caused me to feel emotions. I mean, damn, that was brutal. The scene, the directing, it all came together so well.
Eh, was it really in character for Joel to walk into the middle of a room with armed strangers? I feel he and Tommy should've expressed some doubts but Abby and co did a few things to make them drop their guard.
 
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NewYork214

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They should have had ellie go through all this cause her GF died while pregnant instead. Would have added quiet a bit to story when she murders the pregnant girl. I Didn't want Joel to die. Didn't really like abbys dad being the doctor I joyously murdered for trying to kill ellie. But I guess I see what they did there
 

trikster40

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Eh, was it really in character for Joel to walk into the middle of a room with armed strangers? I feel he and Tommy should've expressed some doubts but Abby and co did a few things to make them drop their guard.
As soon as they walked in the room, they knew they were in the shit, but nothing they could really do except hope they were who they said they were. Which they weren’t.

I mean, they had just gone through a life and death situation with Abby, and they had grown a bit complacent in their nice little town. I wouldn’t say it was out of character at all.
 

Ulysses 31

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As soon as they walked in the room, they knew they were in the shit, but nothing they could really do except hope they were who they said they were. Which they weren’t.

I mean, they had just gone through a life and death situation with Abby, and they had grown a bit complacent in their nice little town. I wouldn’t say it was out of character at all.
But that doesn't really make sense that living in that town would make them complacent while at the same time have these rigorous organised patrols for infected and bandits in the area. Joel now has Ellie and a community to fight for and he knows how cruel the world can be so for him to drop his guard as quick as he did doesn't seem in character to me.

At the very least he should've been curious what a group of armed people are doing so close to the town.
 
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EDMIX

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If they wanted us care about the revenge, then killing Joel was the right choice. because just Ellie we care about Joel. My problem with TLOU part 2 they try to make sympathetic for both side but in the end up starting hate both they didn't care what happens to them even Ellie who really like the first game.

I never had a problem with hating both sides because in my opinion their goal is to try to show you these characters are realistic not only in your desire to like them and be sympathetic for them but also in the ability to genuinely dislike the character as well...

These are flawed characters.

Nobody is perfect and I think it would be fucking stupid to try to force one of the characters to be morally just or the good guy or anything like that because that's typically what we always fucking get from games anyway it's simply not how real life actually is. It would be like trying to say you're angry at the writers of Breaking Bad because Walter White's character is a piece of shit.... sir he was not created to be a saint, not all characters are created to be these Majestic good guys lol

I think the point is to show that the Ellie that you like in the first game is also one that is lied to and is Young and naive about the reality of the world... so I care about what happens to the characters in this universe even if I personally dislike some of them based on their actions because the game was never created to be making the perfect Ironclad characters that make no mistakes as I personally think that's stupid writing, it's completely unrealistic to reality to even attempt to make some character with no flaw based on some fear that somebody might end up "hating" the character, they didn't make the character for you to add as a friend on facebook sir. Like the character for who they are instead of trying to morally fit them to be something they were not created for.


If anything, look at Joel's character at the start of The Last Of Us 1, he ran to a solider trusting him only to have him kill his daughter. Using that shit logic, it would be like arguing that he should be the same way trusting soldiers, the government (whats left of it) etc. The things that occur in our lives, change us, thus it is to be expected that how Ellie is in part 1 as a child, won't be the same as her as an adult as that doesn't even fucking make sense. You like a character that was always going to be temporary by default of their age.

Shit, you could had a game with Abby as a kid before this game and many of you would say the same thing lol YOU KNOW NOT OF WHAT ANY CHILD IS GOING TO BECOME AS AN ADULT. So I'm completely fine with how they did things with both titles and it makes complete sense to clearly not have the characters cookie cutter good guys. Reality isn't really always like that and I'd argue that is boring as hell. Trying to Goku every character like its comic book, shit even Superman has books where he is a bad guy folks, get over it lol
 
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Danjin44

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I never had a problem with hating both sides because in my opinion their goal is to try to show you these characters are realistic not only in your desire to like them and be sympathetic for them but also in the ability to genuinely dislike the character as well...

These are flawed characters.

Nobody is perfect and I think it would be fucking stupid to try to force one of the characters to be morally just or the good guy or anything like that because that's typically what we always fucking get from games anyway it's simply not how real life actually is. It would be like trying to say you're angry at the writers of Breaking Bad because Walter White's character is a piece of shit.... sir he was not created to be a saint, not all characters are created to be these Majestic good guys lol

I think the point is to show that the Ellie that you like in the first game is also one that is lied to and is Young and naive about the reality of the world... so I care about what happens to the characters in this universe even if I personally dislike some of them based on their actions because the game was never created to be making the perfect Ironclad characters that make no mistakes as I personally think that's stupid writing, it's completely unrealistic to reality to even attempt to make some character with no flaw based on some fear that somebody might end up "hating" the character, they didn't make the character for you to add as a friend on facebook sir. Like the character for who they are instead of trying to morally fit them to be something they were not created for.


If anything, look at Joel's character at the start of The Last Of Us 1, he ran to a solider trusting him only to have him kill his daughter. Using that shit logic, it would be like arguing that he should be the same way trusting soldiers, the government (whats left of it) etc. The things that occur in our lives, change us, thus it is to be expected that how Ellie is in part 1 as a child, won't be the same as her as an adult as that doesn't even fucking make sense. You like a character that was always going to be temporary by default of their age.

Shit, you could had a game with Abby as a kid before this game and many of you would say the same thing lol YOU KNOW NOT OF WHAT ANY CHILD IS GOING TO BECOME AS AN ADULT. So I'm completely fine with how they did things with both titles and it makes complete sense to clearly not have the characters cookie cutter good guys. Reality isn't really always like that and I'd argue that is boring as hell. Trying to Goku every character like its comic book, shit even Superman has books where he is a bad guy folks, get over it lol
My problem is not that they are flawed, the problem is I personally couldn’t connect with any of them. In NieR Replicant characters also very flawed but at the same time you grow to like them and care about what happens to them.
 

sainraja

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Eh, was it really in character for Joel to walk into the middle of a room with armed strangers? I feel he and Tommy should've expressed some doubts but Abby and co did a few things to make them drop their guard.
That's the thing with being human, sometimes you let your guard down and that can end up costing you.....everything, in the case of Joel. At first I didn't buy it either but I think that wasn't too out of character.
 

voidenberg

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Joel and Tommy trusting a group of armed strangers was completely out of character.
They even mention David's group came after Joel and Ellie. What Joel did in the hospital tend to have consequences.

But no, let's introduce ourselves and stand completely defenseless while these armed strangers surround us.

I don't care that Joel died. I took offense at how he died.
I never saw Joel as a hero. Not even an anti-hero. He was a troubled and evil man.

It was badly written and his death was cheap shock value.

Seriously, Abby's only clue was that Joel had a brother named Tommy. Five minutes after meeting her "Hi, I'm Tommy. This is my brother Joel".

"Bu... But Joel got soft living in Jackson"

Bullshit.
 

packy34

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Not in the way they did it.

I actually think the story they had for TLOU2 is fine - but it should have been 2 separate games to round out a trilogy.

TLOU2 could have been Ellie and Joel reconciling the issues caused by the first game's ending. Abby is introduced in this game as a second playable character, and the game gives small hints that she's looking for someone and is out for revenge. You switch back and forth between the two stories until it is eventually revealed that Joel killed Abby's father. Joel and Ellie are doing their own thing and are unaware of Abby. Near the end of the game, you get the same cutscene of Ellie finally forgiving Joel and welcoming him back into her life. The game ends with Abby killing Joel.

TLOU3 would be the revenge story that the real TLOU2 tried to be, except now it would feel more earned from the increased build-up. This game is 100% Ellie - you did all of the Abby sections in TLOU2. Ending could stay the same, but I would change it so that Ellie does kill Abby and then kills herself after returning home. It's more fitting for this world and puts this story completely to rest.
 

Danjin44

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That's the thing with being human, sometimes you let your guard down and that can end up costing you.....everything, in the case of Joel. At first I didn't buy it either but I think that wasn't too out of character.
Except in one of the flashbacks Joel was lecturing one of Ellie’s friend over his guard duties, which make me think Joel still overly cautions person.
 
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Fake

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Really tho? Everyone I know thought Joel would be dying, people weren’t even sure if he’d be alive for the second game

Indeed. Was pretty much the center of discussion in every spoiler thread around the internet, resetera, reddit and even here on neogaf when those leaks start to drop.

After the first trailer I assumed Joel would die as well, but not in so stupid way.
 
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SSfox

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This game needed Bruce Straley to be the masterpiece it could've been, instead of it being just a mediocre game with too many flaws.

Hopefully Naughty Dog can step up with their next game.
 

SF Kosmo

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It's the only thing they could have done that would have made the story work, that would have made the player buy into what Ellie was doing and find it sympathetic, that would allow them to lose sight of what they were doing before the big switch.

Obviously there are other stories you could tell but they went for something's my ambitious and brilliant. I didn't necessarily love playing TLOU2 but it sure makes an impact.
 

TheMay30thMan

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It’s kinda pointless to argue whether the story went in the right direction or not when the writer is the one that ultimately decides on where the story goes and what the characters do.

That being said, TLOU2‘s story felt like a fan-fiction. I didn’t think the first game’s story was anything above average writing-wise, but I was surprised to see the sequel was worse, not better.
 

Rodolink

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then go back and play LoU 1 all the times you want. You need to think about it more from a narrative perspective, the story holds the game together in this franchise, we cant keep looking it as a "normal" game with enduring protagonists like Nathan Drake or Kratos. I bet for the third entry they'll introduce a new main character.
 

zkorejo

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Joel dying was never an issue for me. Bastardizing Joel, Ellie and Tommy was.

It was more like they tried their hardest to make players believe: "yeah well he deserved it". No you don't get to tell me that.
 

captainnapalm

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Playing TLOU pt 1 and 2 back to back makes TLOU 2 so much better.
For me it's the opposite - if you put the story of 1 right next to 2 the whole thing falls apart. You can see how it went from Joel's story, to Ellie is suddenly a lesbian in the DLC, to Ellie is now the darling in TLOU2, let's make it all about her. But it undercuts its own narrative to get there by making Joel's journey sad, pointless and meaningless - and it tries to make you OK with that by villainizing him. Now you can say it's a nihilistic game where bad things happen and so you can't have a traditional narrative - but stories that go on just for the sake of selling nihilism and misery, while trying to replace it with godless, soulless identity politics, are not stories I'm even a little bit interested in hearing.

I will say this though - the game is utterly fitting for the time in which it was made. In a way, it's perceptive and reflective of modern culture in a way few other games are. It just sucks for us and modern culture. I think if you went back in time and told the TLOU story to any other era of people - they would wonder what the fuck happened to humanity.
 

Jokerevo

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Simple question, simple poll. Do you think Naughty Dog did the right thing killing Joel?

Allow me to clarify. I personally felt having waited so long for this game that as soon as Joel was killed, the game lost all intrinsic value for me as a gamer. The original The Last of Us game captured my emotions and attentions not because of any diversity or political statement, but because I fell in love with the relationship between Joel and Ellie. Watching the relationship blossom and seeing how much Ellie filled a long gaping hole in Joel's life was beautiful. Ellie went from being a burden at the beginning of their journey to absolutely irreplaceable to Joel by the end of the game. This had nothing to do with her immunity, but in a way I would argue that Joel's love for Ellie was because her grew to see her as a surrogate daughter and whilst he was always aware of his mission to get Ellie to the fireflys, he never wanted Ellie to be happy or safe because he wanted to protect the possible cure for humanity, by the end of the first game he saw the importance of her life as an individual and he cared deeply for her that he wanted her to live a full and long life and he was prepared to do anything and I mean anything to protect her.

I sympathised with Joel and his plight because I understand loss and what it can do, leaving a hole in your life that can never be filled again the same way. I believe that as much as he was an anti-hero, I loved the fact that there was no boundary on anything that he was prepared to do to ensure her safety. Watching Joel become this guardian demon and the way he would torture, kill or fight tooth and nail to protect her was inspiring and maybe for the wrong reasons. Clearly the developers wanted us to grow to hate Joel for who he and is what he had done throughout the events of the game and what we know of his life. But I found myself stuck in his shoes thinking that if I was in his position I would have done the exact same thing.

I didn't sympathise with Abby. Or Lev. Or Dina. Or Jesse. Or many of the characters in the second game. I even begun to lose my love for Ellie the more the game went on. In fact I found myself feeling worse for Tommy. We virtually used pregnancy as a way to 'one-up' the level of depravity and those 'Oh shit!!!' moments that we experienced in the first game. Honestly I think if we knew Joel was going to die from the outset this game would have reviewed a lot differently. Never mind the media and their never ending championing of the game for diversity and exclusivity, I didn't play these games for political reasons. The second Joel was murdered I lost all motivation and excite that I had to play this game. It became a slog over time and by the end I was just glad it was finished because the pacing was fucked up and it didn't make any sense continuing after Abby nearly killed Ellie. Nor did I like the mixed message of revenge good for Abby, revenge bad for Ellie.

Killing Joel made me lose all interest in the future of the franchise. But I know that not everyone agrees with me. My argument at the end of the day is that The Last of Us was such a unique and creative story telling experience that the fact that they chose to do something as cliche and bourgeois as making Abby a daughter of one of the original doctors that Joel killed and the story panning out the way it did, tell's me that they sold out. This story could have gone anywhere. It could have told the story of Joel and Ellie trying to survive when the remnants of the fireflys want to take Ellie by force and kill Joel for what he did and they're constantly on the run etc. Had Joel died in those circumstances it might have made sense to me. But I honestly think the story of the game was just as poorly thought out as the moment a character in a beloved franchise is revealed to be a clone, or a long lost brother etc. Any of those cliche and quite honestly boring fucking plot twists that makes you sigh and say 'Oh no, not this shit again...'
Yes. Because at the end of Tlou he went into a hospital and murdered everyone, thereby making him a cold blooded serial killer. Yes, he did it as a father who did not want to lose his child but still...he effectively is responsible for "creating" Abby and the new fireflies. I don't know about you but the ending to TLou was seriously disturbing. Here's a shot at a cure to save the world, next thing I know I'm killing everyone. Joel sold Ellie a lie. He was trying to prove his love was greater than anything else but he never revealed to her the price he had to pay.

Sold out? It makes sense that there would be surviving children of that massacre!?! How in the fuck is that selling out lol? You cry for originality and blah blah but you don't even see what's in front of you. Tlou IS NOT ORIGINAL IN ANY WAY. That journey has been told a thousand times.

I mean you can barely support the points of your own argument. Apparently everything is cliche and bourgeois lol. It's all about context brother. You need to frame the actions in the context and that's what the series is about, it's about seeing the other side of someone else's argument. You're only choosing to see one side of the story and ignoring the other side. That's the power of ignorance. Ignorance and the refusal to understand someone else's motives is the reason why were destroying each other IRL over and over. Don't get me wrong, when I first played the game I was outraged by Joel's death and I was looking forward to killing Abby and everyone else in that room. Then when I was given control of Abby I hated every minute of it. I refused to follow her story and forced myself to reach the Ellie episodes. But slowly, especially through her treatment of Lev, I began to see things from Abby's POV. Abby was someone's little girl too. Sure, she went a bit overboard with the bench press but I understood her motives too.

If even after you've experienced Abby's side, you're still outraged then for me this reaction to Tlou2 is a-typical "AMERICAN HERO" bullshit, as in the hero's actions, no matter how heinous, grant him immunity. Well bullshit, that world died a long time ago. There's consequences dude. Joel rightly paid for his actions and jesus christ did you see how much it ruined Ellie? It turned her into a motiveless, murdering, revenging bitch. By sparing her, Abby allowed Ellie to see a different perspective of the same argument.


Here's much better question, how do much more powerful would Tlou2 have been if Joel was alive? His death propels Ellie forwards, without what is she doing? She's living a lie anyway.


And lol if you think Tlou was unique and original.
 

lh032

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Im fine with abby killing joel but he died way too fast, i feel like he should stay alive as your companion, while you playing as ellie, with abby at second part, works better that way and only kill joel off in tlou3
 
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Jokerevo

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For me it's the opposite - if you put the story of 1 right next to 2 the whole thing falls apart. You can see how it went from Joel's story, to Ellie is suddenly a lesbian in the DLC, to Ellie is now the darling in TLOU2, let's make it all about her. But it undercuts its own narrative to get there by making Joel's journey sad, pointless and meaningless - and it tries to make you OK with that by villainizing him. Now you can say it's a nihilistic game where bad things happen and so you can't have a traditional narrative - but stories that go on just for the sake of selling nihilism and misery, while trying to replace it with godless, soulless identity politics, are not stories I'm even a little bit interested in hearing.

I will say this though - the game is utterly fitting for the time in which it was made. In a way, it's perceptive and reflective of modern culture in a way few other games are. It just sucks for us and modern culture. I think if you went back in time and told the TLOU story to any other era of people - they would wonder what the fuck happened to humanity.
lol what's the problem with switching focus from Joel to Ellie to Abby again? Ellie is suddenly a lesbian? AND????? Did you even play the games. Joel's journey isn't meaningless you fool. Joel's actions shape Ellie. When Ellie gets the truth she sees the context of Joel's actions and realises he reaped what he sowed. He's not a villain. That's just near-sighted bullshit. He's a human. He just wanted to protect the only thing he had left in the world. Jesus christ is the narrative theme really that complicated to you???? Who's the villain? They're all villains depending on your perspective. This is the first time in a long time that movie quality narrative and themes have bled into the interactive space.
 
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Leopold

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I never believed in concepts such as "respect for the character". Joel was not made into a goofball, he died a horrific death. I agree that a bit more background would have been good - just giving the player some 30 minutes of Joel + Abby's crew interaction, even with a timelapse scene, would have helped. Make them enter the settlement and kill him, or something.

However the game mechanics are flawless - brutal, unforgiving, incredibly violent - the scenario is amazing, the OOOMPH when shooting is always satisfying. Abby's sections aren't that bad - some are actually quite nice (the village) - but it was difficult to care for her in the end. The character just isn't relatable, even with the kid she's trying to save.

I feel like the whole SJW debacle was fucking stupid and people should get paying jobs so they can waste less time on irrelevant stuff.
 

Jokerevo

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TLOU2 should have been TLOU3, the final chapter.
nah. Tlou3 is obviously Abby hunts Ellie for the cure. Ellie resists a bit, gets caught up in another faction or whatever and then they team up at the end and Ellie sacrifices herself for the cause. Which is the entire point of the series: the cause is greater than any individuals need.
 

captainnapalm

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lol what's the problem with switching focus from Joel to Ellie to Abby again? Ellie is suddenly a lesbian? AND????? Did you even play the games. Joel's journey isn't meaningless you fool. Joel's actions shape Ellie. When Ellie gets the truth she sees the context of Joel's actions and realises he reaped what he sowed. He's not a villain. That's just near-sighted bullshit. He's a human. He just wanted to protect the only thing he had left in the world. Jesus christ is the narrative theme really that complicated to you???? Who's the villain? They're all villains depending on your perspective. This is the first time in a long time that movie quality narrative and themes have bled into the interactive space.
You seem awfully triggered because I don't like a video game. By all means, enjoy your sad torture porn.
 

Danjin44

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lol what's the problem with switching focus from Joel to Ellie to Abby again? Ellie is suddenly a lesbian? AND????? Did you even play the games. Joel's journey isn't meaningless you fool. Joel's actions shape Ellie. When Ellie gets the truth she sees the context of Joel's actions and realises he reaped what he sowed. He's not a villain. That's just near-sighted bullshit. He's a human. He just wanted to protect the only thing he had left in the world. Jesus christ is the narrative theme really that complicated to you???? Who's the villain? They're all villains depending on your perspective. This is the first time in a long time that movie quality narrative and themes have bled into the interactive space.
My issue is the game did nothing for me to sympathize neither side, both side have become insufferable people and in the end I no longer cared what happens to any of the characters.

The first game did much, MUCH better job making me care about theses incredibly flawed people, even side characters like Tess and Bill.

The 2nd has more characters, it's more violent and it has more deaths but none of it anywhere near close as impactful as the first game, including the ending.
 
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Whitecrow

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I never believed in concepts such as "respect for the character". Joel was not made into a goofball, he died a horrific death. I agree that a bit more background would have been good - just giving the player some 30 minutes of Joel + Abby's crew interaction, even with a timelapse scene, would have helped. Make them enter the settlement and kill him, or something.
If your audience have to give you money, you should respect them, what they love and to a certain extent, what they expect.

You cant just turn up your ego to 200%, say "fuck you this is my story", and do whatever you want and get along with it.

Joel's death could have been made in millions of better ways, but guess why it wasnt? Because the game have a lot of forced and unnecessary violence just for the wow factor.
Of course certain levels of violence are expected, but there are 'humanity-lacking' levels of violence everywhere.

I mean, it looks like Druckmann asked himself, "What's the most impactful and striking way Joel can die?" instead of, "Given this situation, how would Joel end up dying?"
Big difference here.

And hell, the scene where Elli forgets the map with the cross on their goal. Yeah. Of course.

TLOU2 would have almost no plot if it werent for stupid decisions from the characters one would not expect in this survival setting. And for a narrative driven game that's the worst that can happen.
 
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JimmyRustler

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Killing him off was not the problem but havinn him portraid as a whimp in the short time they show him in part 2 was a disgrace.
 

Leopold

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If your audience have to give you money, you should respect them, what they love and to a certain extent, what they expect.

You cant just turn up your ego to 200%, say "fuck you this is my story", and do whatever you want and get along with it.

Joel's death could have been made in millions of better ways, but guess why it wasnt? Because the game have a lot of forced and unnecessary violence just for the wow factor.
Of course certain levels of violence are expected, but there are 'humanity-lacking' levels of violence everywhere.

I mean, it looks like Druckmann asked himself, "What's the most impactful and striking way Joel can die?" instead of, "Given this situation, how would Joel end up dying?"
Big difference here.

And hell, the scene where Elli forgets the map with the cross on their goal. Yeah. Of course.

TLOU2 would have almost no plot if it werent for stupid decisions from the characters one would not expect in this survival setting. And for a narrative driven game that's the worst that can happen.


Tbf Ellie was completely taken aback by what she just did.

And eh, audiences are to be respected but you can't just go by their taste - otherwise Yakuza: Like a Dragon would not exist.

People praised the first game for the violence depicted in a gritty way and I don't feel like the game cheapens it. This world is a world that fell apart, Ellie is traumatized as hell. Humanity under violence is completely suppressed, with thousands of cases everywhere, especially when we are talking vengeance. You have movies with way more graphic violence than what you see in this game and honestly, this is not a problem. Asking "what is the most impactful way that Joel can die" just stresses out how meaningless and irrelevant life became after the infection. Your hero can be beaten to death in a house in the middle of nowhere, laying in his own blood in a corner like any other character that you met during the game.
 
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Ulysses 31

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Yes. Because at the end of Tlou he went into a hospital and murdered everyone, thereby making him a cold blooded serial killer. Yes, he did it as a father who did not want to lose his child but still...he effectively is responsible for "creating" Abby and the new fireflies. I don't know about you but the ending to TLou was seriously disturbing. Here's a shot at a cure to save the world, next thing I know I'm killing everyone. Joel sold Ellie a lie. He was trying to prove his love was greater than anything else but he never revealed to her the price he had to pay.
You're leaving out some important details, don't you think?

The Fireflies denying Joel seeing Ellie before she's killed doesn't strike me as reasonable. It's also unethical to kill someone without informed consent. They were marching him out of the premises without his gear and IMO Joel is right not to take the chance he's going to be executed or left behind defenceless in Salt Like City.

I do think it was dumb of Joel to maintain the lie when you lay out all the chain of events of what happened at the hospital it's clear to me the Fireflies escalated the situation.
 

Whitecrow

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Tbf Ellie was completely taken aback by what she just did.

And eh, audiences are to be respected but you can't just go by their taste - otherwise Yakuza: Like a Dragon would not exist.

People praised the first game for the violence depicted in a gritty way and I don't feel like the game cheapens it. This world is a world that fell apart, Ellie is traumatized as hell. Humanity under violence is completely suppressed, with thousands of cases everywhere, especially when we are talking vengeance. You have movies with way more graphic violence than what you see in this game and honestly, this is not a problem. Asking "what is the most impactful way that Joel can die" just stresses out how meaningless and irrelevant life became after the infection. Your hero can be beaten to death in a house in the middle of nowhere, laying in his own blood in a corner like any other character that you met during the game.
Well this is an explanation I can get along with. Well done.

I agree with all of this, but I still think it's quite unbalanced towards the 'wow factor' side, which makes me (and lots of other players I assume) angry because it detracts for the realistic experience it was aiming for.
 

Leopold

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Well this is an explanation I can get along with. Well done.

I agree with all of this, but I still think it's quite unbalanced towards the 'wow factor' side, which makes me (and lots of other players I assume) angry because it detracts for the realistic experience it was aiming for.

I understand that. I feel like sometimes it was just nonsense, like Ellie getting impaled and rubbing some Bengay - and all good. Guess it is a bit of the Tomb Raider reboot effect that is difficult to shake off.
 
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Stooky

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For me it's the opposite - if you put the story of 1 right next to 2 the whole thing falls apart. You can see how it went from Joel's story, to Ellie is suddenly a lesbian in the DLC, to Ellie is now the darling in TLOU2, let's make it all about her. But it undercuts its own narrative to get there by making Joel's journey sad, pointless and meaningless - and it tries to make you OK with that by villainizing him. Now you can say it's a nihilistic game where bad things happen and so you can't have a traditional narrative - but stories that go on just for the sake of selling nihilism and misery, while trying to replace it with godless, soulless identity politics, are not stories I'm even a little bit interested in hearing.

I will say this though - the game is utterly fitting for the time in which it was made. In a way, it's perceptive and reflective of modern culture in a way few other games are. It just sucks for us and modern culture. I think if you went back in time and told the TLOU story to any other era of people - they would wonder what the fuck happened to humanity.
Joels journey is not pointless.In TLOU Joels journey goes full circle. He learns to love again. He found something to fight for. Yet he's still a terrible person, he's an animal, he's flawed. His death, he had it coming especially in that world. He's not invincible like so many other video game characters. He was a hunter with tommy there's a scene where they talk about how bad they were back then, Tess says and I quote " We're both terrible people". Saving Ellie was redemption for him. Just like it was for Tess and Tommy. Ellies Journey in Pt 2 is like Joels journey. She hates Joel but she is so much like him even dresses like him. “The sins of the father are to be laid upon the children". TLOU is about joel Pt 2 is about ellie. Joels character arc was over at the end of TLOU he said it in his monologue at the end of the game. Like in many other stories once that arc is done either the story ends or the character dies. Ellie being gay that's on you bro, there's nothing in TLOU that says gay or straight you just assumed that. In left behind, they earned that moment. Identity politics are in everything and it has always has been that way. Everybody pushes an agenda. Everything you read , hear and watch has an agenda behind it.

"godless, soulless identity politics"
What does this mean? It dosen't make sense. Because ellie is gay that's identity politics? If that's case don't go outside don't watch any media. You won't be offended by anything.
 
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realcool

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On the list of issues I had with Part 2, Joel's death is probably somewhere on like page 3 or something. They shit the sheets. Unfortunate. Looked nice, though.
 

Ulysses 31

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Well this is an explanation I can get along with. Well done.

I agree with all of this, but I still think it's quite unbalanced towards the 'wow factor' side, which makes me (and lots of other players I assume) angry because it detracts for the realistic experience it was aiming for.
But when you start scrutinizing the events that lead Ellie to stabbing Mel it doesn't really add up IMO. Is it really unthinkable that Owen and Mel would mention their upcoming child to plead for their lives, especially when they're deserting the WLF to start over?
 
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Leopold

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But when you start scrutinizing the events that lead Ellie to stabbing Mel it doesn't really add up IMO. Is it really unthinkable that Owen and Mel would mention their upcoming child to plead for their lives, especially when they're deserting the WLF to start over?

I had a gun to my head once and tbqh - very difficult to articulate an argument when this is the situation. You just draw a blank.
 

Whitecrow

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But when you start scrutinizing the events that lead Ellie to stabbing Mel it doesn't really add up IMO. Is it really unthinkable that Owen and Mel would mention their upcoming child to plead for their lives, especially when they're deserting the WLF to start over?
At this point, I'm not sure of anything honestly.

I mean... To which extent is 'the world fell apart' or 'Ellie is traumatized to hell' valid excuses/arguments? It's very difficult to draw the line.
 
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Leopold

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At this point, I'm not sure of anything honestly.

I mean... To which extent is 'the world fell apart' or 'Ellie is traumatized to hell' valid excuses/arguments? It's very difficult to draw the line.
Here I would say that a more nuanced script would have helped for sure.
 
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Ulysses 31

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At this point, I'm not sure of anything honestly.

I mean... To which extent is 'the world fell apart' or 'Ellie is traumatized to hell' valid excuses/arguments? It's very difficult to draw the line.
Actually, the game gives Ellie a good excuse, Mel attacking her with a knife. It's Owen and Mel I was questioning.
I had a gun to my head once and tbqh - very difficult to articulate an argument when this is the situation. You just draw a blank.
Ok but both Mel and Owen forgetting about their baby at the same time is a bit of a stretch.
 
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Leopold

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Actually, the game gives Ellie a good excuse, Mel attacking her with a knife. It's Owen and Mel I was questioning.

Ok but both Mel and Owen forgetting about their baby at the same time is a bit of a stretch.
Yeah as I have said before, this could have been done better.
 

assurdum

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Nothing against the choice to kill Joel. But at least put a decent story in the game. You pass all the game to kill people and nothing else. At least in the first the narrative was interesting? Practically we can't know nothing about the new political order or if there are other people who search a cure, it's just talk about how Ellie is became and Abby a poor misunderstood victim of the events but what about a true story?
 
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Dibils2k

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the fact Joel and Ellie scenes were by far the best moments of the game tells you that they dont really have much outside of that dynamic

everything else was a mess, with cheap "shock and awe" moments thrown in to get a reaction out of people.

you can kill main characters, but when things replacing the main characters is horrendous then you have a problem
 
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Pidull

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The way they killed Joel was a mistake, if he was going to die, it needed to be much later in the game after players develop another emotional attachment. How they do that and with who? No idea.

The whole value of TLOU was behind Joel and Ellie's relationship, you empathized with Joel because he lost his daughter, and because he wasn't willing to lose his surrogate daughter by the end. It took him the entire game to reach that point and decide to kill to keep her in his life. If you're going to destroy that relationship, you damn well better replace it with another first.
 
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