Gonzo The Great
Banned
The Wii has been dead for three years and its successor still has a baseline under 100k. What a fucking embarrassment. The Wii U will struggle to reach 10 million at this rate.
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NPD Sales Results for August 2014 [Up4: PS4 #1, XB1 last week sales 2x last Jul week]
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Aquamarine
Member
If that were the case, we'd have tons of Wii U ports of pretty much all third-party games.
Look at the industry. Think about how EA, Take-Two, Ubisoft, Activision, etc. come to decide their future plans.
If there isn't a Wii U port, there is a very good reason why there isn't a Wii U port. Companies don't make these kinds of decisions lightly.
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
I think that's part of the reason Ubisoft & WB stuck around for as long as they did. If Rayman Legends had done well (it's partly Ubisoft's mismanagement imo), at least we'd probably be seeing some more titles on Wii U in that vein. I kind of wonder how Child of Light did on Wii U. Hopefully if it did well, they'll keep making eShop titles for the Wii U like that.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
The implicit question there is then why is it so hard to find third parties aligned with Nintendos ludocentric approach versus the cinematic / experiential approach that defines the AAA console market, and to what extent those AAA publishers reflect what the market wants, and to what extent they dictate what the market wants.
The critical and commercial success of GTA / CoD / Skyrim / TLOU suggests that the market doesn't want "Nintendo style" products, but the success of Angry Birds / MOBAs and Minecraft (which were all 'grass roots' popular) suggests that it does.
EDIT:
This is differentiating between "all ages" type products that Nintendo make from the "for children" products that Nintendo consoles traditionally have success with.
SwiftDeath
Member
Moba's are a "for children" genre now? Or what? Because I don't understand how moba's has anything in similar to Nintendo output
They are gameplay focused, not centered around cinematic AAA etc etc.
They are generally colourful or have unique artstyles that aren't grimdark "realism".
There are certainly more youngins playing them than there are youngins playing AAA console stuff.
SwiftDeath
Member
Where is your statistic objectively proving that from then? Simply specifiying that you think more children are playing game type x of type y is meaningless without any type of evidence to support that. I could actually see that potentially in absolute numbers considering how many moba players there are in general but I would love to see the actual demographic breakdowns so you could compare it accurately.
theprodigy
Member
LoL/Dota and company are probably closer to CoD than anything, just compare the levels of vitriol 
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Or what.
I tried to make my point distinctly about third parties that sync with Nintendos methodology in being gameplay driven, not about third parties who do well on Nintendo consoles because they make games aimed at children.
MOBAs aren't "for children" any more than Angry Birds or Minecraft are (although they have since resonated with that age group, which actually cements the point).
They are games focussed on play mechanics, rather than on cinematic experiences / spectacle and that rose to popularity outside of the traditional publishing methods.
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
So thanks to the special edition line, we know Hyrule Warriors has at least sold 500 copies in the US. Success!
lol
Easy... The success of PC and mobile are hurting Nintendo much more than the success of the PlayStation and Xbox are because PC and mobile are providing better games in the "Nintendo-style" than Nintendo currently is. Yeah, you might be able to play GTA & CoD on PC, but that's not where the majority of sales for them or games like them come from. It also doesn't help that many of the games which follows Nintendo's philosophy on PC and mobile are cheap or free and can run on almost any device.
And before you ask, the XB1 is only hurting because the PS4, which caters to a similar market, is a better system in the eyes of most customers.
SwiftDeath
Member
Ah ok. I thought I might be misinterpreting your statement hence the "or what".
The problem is though those 3rd parties that are in sync with Nintendo's approach to games have no incentive to work with them really. I mean maybe Rovio makes like a mario skinned angry birds or what not but what benefit does Nintendo get out of it? Minecraft should've come to Nintendo systems already but I've had that discussion before as had we all. Moba's in general are online-only experiences with no retail presence so again likely doesn't fit in with what Nintendo actually does aside from the focus on gameplay. If anything your comparison makes it sound like what people liked Nintendo for can be found away from Nintendo and thus Nintendo is having trouble to even compete in what its core belief is.
Refreshment.01
Member
Or why it is understandable when a 3rd party releases software outside of NIntendo consoles because the perceived audience for this products is not there. Yet, the Kingdom Hearts console games are Sony exclusive (so far) or something of a no brainer like Nino Kuni skips the Wii U. ALthought in Nino's case it probably had to do with release date of the game.
I guess my confusions with the list you made would be as follows.
1.) I don't feel that Skyrim is actually a game that sells on its cinematic presentation values since overall they're incredibly poor compared to competing products.
2.) CoD's singleplayer campaign is definitely about the spectacle (and is often maligned for its gameplay), but the multiplayer aspect that drives a lot of the sales is very much a gameplay focused affair built around positive reinforcement and giving people who can't play very well in older style shooters like CS or Quake the ability to do well.
3.) While the presentation in Angry Birds* and Minecraft is pretty barebones, with MOBAs we do see products like Dota 2 really try to put a distinct level of personality and a ton of voice acting on to the characters themselves. They even quip at each other and have backstories that appear in their interactions.
4.) GTA I'd argue is another mixed product. People like the story, but when we look at what GTA4 gets maligned for, it's the inability to do all the crazy things you could in games like San Andreas because they focused way too much on trying to make the game more grounded, and was a major area of focus for them in building the newest title.
I actually do feel in general we're seeing a shift more towards gameplay focus in AAA titles again though. Many titles are focusing more on showing off their featuresets and adding systematic elements and open worlds, while games like The Order 1886 or Quantum Break - much more reminiscent of the cinematic corridor shooters that defined much of last generation - seem on a collision course for ho-hum to low sales and mixed critical reception.
We're also seeing an increase in publishers launching things like major multiplayer only games, which I feel wouldn't have been considered five years ago. That's pretty counter to selling a cinematic experience.
Perhaps as a very recently example of this, we even have Ubisoft sitting here writing up about how no one said anything positive about the plot of Far Cry 3 and hated their linear missions so they're trying to redo Far Cry 4's gameplay to account for how people actually want to play the game: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=901571
*Rovio has been steadily increasing the production values of their games and focusing very heavily on their animated feature department from which they embed content in games both as cutscenes and as TV stations, which is definitionally cinematic in nature.
1.) I don't feel that Skyrim is actually a game that sells on its cinematic presentation values since overall they're incredibly poor compared to competing products.
2.) CoD's singleplayer campaign is definitely about the spectacle (and is often maligned for its gameplay), but the multiplayer aspect that drives a lot of the sales is very much a gameplay focused affair built around positive reinforcement and giving people who can't play very well in older style shooters like CS or Quake the ability to do well.
3.) While the presentation in Angry Birds* and Minecraft is pretty barebones, with MOBAs we do see products like Dota 2 really try to put a distinct level of personality and a ton of voice acting on to the characters themselves. They even quip at each other and have backstories that appear in their interactions.
4.) GTA I'd argue is another mixed product. People like the story, but when we look at what GTA4 gets maligned for, it's the inability to do all the crazy things you could in games like San Andreas because they focused way too much on trying to make the game more grounded, and was a major area of focus for them in building the newest title.
I actually do feel in general we're seeing a shift more towards gameplay focus in AAA titles again though. Many titles are focusing more on showing off their featuresets and adding systematic elements and open worlds, while games like The Order 1886 or Quantum Break - much more reminiscent of the cinematic corridor shooters that defined much of last generation - seem on a collision course for ho-hum to low sales and mixed critical reception.
We're also seeing an increase in publishers launching things like major multiplayer only games, which I feel wouldn't have been considered five years ago. That's pretty counter to selling a cinematic experience.
Perhaps as a very recently example of this, we even have Ubisoft sitting here writing up about how no one said anything positive about the plot of Far Cry 3 and hated their linear missions so they're trying to redo Far Cry 4's gameplay to account for how people actually want to play the game: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=901571
*Rovio has been steadily increasing the production values of their games and focusing very heavily on their animated feature department from which they embed content in games both as cutscenes and as TV stations, which is definitionally cinematic in nature.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I don't disagree, but given thats the case it is strange that Nintendo aren't finding third party collaborative spaces there, as it would seem to be their 'best fit' for partnerships.
Whether that's a case of them not looking hard enough, or developers in those spaces not wanting to work on console platforms I don't know. Perhaps their HTML5 framework is an attempt to foster such relationships.
Well those specific examples have already found a great deal of success, so I agree they have little incentive to work with Nintendo, but similar 'emerging' titles and genres possibly do.
MOBAs are super popular due to their mechanics driven gameplay, which is used as a PvP gametype because - frankly - the original DOTA was limited in its constraints as a WC3 mod, and all subsequent MOBAs have aped the originals gameplay, but that doesn't restrict the potential - I can certainly imagine Nintendo being able to create a 'softer' PvP MOBA, or indeed a single-player or co-operative title using those or similar mechanics, just as I can imagine Nintendo being able to create an Angry Birds where the bird flinging mechanic is a sub mechanic of gameplay rather than its entirety, or a more traditional gameplay directed Minecraft that isn't just a free form sandbox.
I personally believe that Skyrim - and GTA in fact - are both sold on 'spectacle', but in Skyrims case it is more the spectacle of scope and scale than of, say, aesthetics.
Many of the individual mechanics in both titles are extremely clunky, but because there are so many of them bundled together they effectively get a pass.
You are 100% correct, and using CoD without caveats is a weak argument on my part; modern CoD is effectively 3 (or more) seperate games sold together as one package;
- Singleplayer heavily scripted "experience" (which fits my argument)
- Mechanics driven PvP with a light RPG flavouring to lower the skill gap between 'pro' and 'newb' (which doesn't fit my argument at all)
- Co-operative arcade style highscore chasing survival / zombies mode (which also undermines my supposition)
I think that's a natural evolution of having money and still supporting a product to be honest; DOTA ripped all of its models and VO from WC3, so effectively got a freeby for adding some characterisation to its game that Valve, Riot, WB, et al obviously can't do.
I'm in no way against money being spent on "experiential" aspects of games by the way - I don't think every game should be Super Hexagon, or Space Giraffe, or other entirely ludocentric titles, it just seems that the balance within the AAA space between mechanics and experience has swung almost entirely to the experience side of the scale, with the result we get things like people creating topics talking about what games they just watched on Youtube instead of playing, and not feeling like they have missed out on anything at all.
I would love to see more of an emphasis on mechanics than experience in AAA titles, but to me the efforts being shown are pretty lacklustre, which is one of the reasons I feel AAA development is stagnating.
The push for more multiplayer only titles isn't to my mind a push for more mechanics driven gameplay, its a push for longer software tails and reducing that first week trade in market that plummets sticker price so quickly.
fake edit: much longer post than I had anticipated, sorry
To clarify my position a bit, when we compare the era with games like Mega Man and Mario to today I definitely feel there's been an astronomical shift over toward selling cinematic experiences and spectacle versus selling something on gameplay mechanics, especially among AAA games.
However, and this could be incorrect, it's just that usually when a new game is announced these days I feel the focus on what's different tends to be largely noted in the mechanical or design aspects of the title as opposed to "Here's how we're going to make this *even more*cinematic filmic.", even though all the cinematic production values that appeared last generation are still there.
I can certainly think of quite a few exceptions to what I just said, but just thinking back to what was announced so far this year (Evolve, Rainbow Six [which followed up a canned cinematic SP focused game], Battleborn, Alien: Isolation, Batman, Bloodborne, Mortal Kombat, Unity, CoD:AW, Hardline, Dead Island 2, Far Cry 4) only a few of these were really sold on the basis of their new and improved cinematic values as the major draw.
That said, there aren't that many new AAA games getting announced in general given I don't feel I missed a zillion games with that listing, so finding trends can be harder.
However, and this could be incorrect, it's just that usually when a new game is announced these days I feel the focus on what's different tends to be largely noted in the mechanical or design aspects of the title as opposed to "Here's how we're going to make this *even more*
I can certainly think of quite a few exceptions to what I just said, but just thinking back to what was announced so far this year (Evolve, Rainbow Six [which followed up a canned cinematic SP focused game], Battleborn, Alien: Isolation, Batman, Bloodborne, Mortal Kombat, Unity, CoD:AW, Hardline, Dead Island 2, Far Cry 4) only a few of these were really sold on the basis of their new and improved cinematic values as the major draw.
That said, there aren't that many new AAA games getting announced in general given I don't feel I missed a zillion games with that listing, so finding trends can be harder.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I don't know... it might just be a function of modern marketing being orders of magnitude more sophisticated than "Willst thou get the girl? Or play like one?" but when a new AAA title is announced it is always as a teaser cinematic, and when gameplay details are revealed even the language used is closer to traditional cinema marketing than gaming (as games are described as having a 20 hour playtime rather than something more traditionally 'gamey' like having more than 20 levels, or whatever).
I can't disagree that a shrinking release schedule doesn't help with seeing trends.
I can't disagree that a shrinking release schedule doesn't help with seeing trends.
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
For what it's worth, Hyrule Warriors is #82 on Amazon's best sellers of 2014 already. Clearly it's a bit biased because of the preorder bonus through them, but it's something. It's already passed the XB1 version of Watch Dogs (that sold pretty badly on Amazon then... because it sold quite a bit right?).
Smash Bros 3DS is already #42 for the year.
Smash Bros 3DS is already #42 for the year.
SwiftDeath
Member
The XB1 SKU of Watch Dogs sold around 360k its first month in the US so there probably is some bias effect going on Amazon towards Nintendo and probably Sony systems from what I've seen but that's still a very good sign I think
Gives me hope for Bayonetta then maybe
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
Bayo is rising on the hourly charts the past couple days. It's now at like #62.
That is a very weird, and wrong, belief considering that TES and GTA both are series known for their playground aspects where you are free to completely ignore the cinematics/story and engage entirely in the highly varied forms of gameplay that their worlds offer. By your definition The Legend Of Zelda is one of the leading cinematic AAA games out there considering how they force their laughable stories on the player and are riddled with clunky combat, item and movement mechanics.
I thought cinematic AAA were games like Heavy Rain and Uncharted, which rely heavily on set pieces, cutscenes, etc. I guess now it's everything with a high budget and nice visuals?
I think the thing with companies like Rovio and Mojang is that they don't particularly care about consoles. Certainly Angry Birds and Minecraft made the jump to even retail releases, but Angry Birds on consoles or handhelds have a higher price than what the source platform, mobile, has. As for Minecraft, only the PC and mobile versions are handled by Mojang, leaving the console versions to be developed by 4J Studios and published by Microsoft on Xbox and Sony on PlayStation. One gets the feeling that Microsoft and Sony each pretty much paid for the license to publish Minecraft on their systems and then paid 4J Studios to make those versions. Speaking of which, I don't thing Rovio handles the Angry Birds games on consoles or handhelds either, leaving the duties to Activision. However, I think my point is clear that these companies don't particularly care about consoles, and the few that do generally port them to PSN as well as eShop.
Certainly, when Nintendo talks about the future of their consoles and handhelds or improve something pertaining to them, they generally hint towards making it easier to port between handheld and console with their ideas of a shared OS between the two, and making it easier for indie developers, the ones who best understand the Nintendo style, to port to their handheld and console. Basically, Nintendo is focusing on making things easier for not only themselves, but for the third-parties that do support them, meaning the Japanese third-parties which focus on handhelds, and the indie developers who show support for their console.
I think the big problem is that Nintendo won't follow their audience. Everybody else is finding great success with what would have been Nintendo's audience, and Nintendo is just sitting on the sidelines letting everyone else eat their lunch. I can't think of another entertainment company that knows where the main audience that would buy their product is and then studiously ignores them.
In my opinion Nintendo needs to divide itself into a software company and a hardware company, because right now their stubborn refusal to let the proprietary hardware go is costing them billions a year on the software side. This is a company that sold 30+ million on several software titles last gen, and they will be permanently hobbled by the fact that their sales ceiling is less then 10 million for any particular title going forward.
Spin it however you want, people are just tired of Nintendo's output. Saying Minecraft is a "Nintendo-like" game is such a stupid thing to say.
Nintendo doesn't have the balls to get out of their comfort zone, they'll never have a Minecraft, at least until Miyamoto and Iwata are gone.
Nintendo doesn't have the balls to get out of their comfort zone, they'll never have a Minecraft, at least until Miyamoto and Iwata are gone.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I think there is a clear difference between titles that try and provide "an experience" (which a Heavy Rain tries to do just as much as a Skyrim does) and titles that provide "a game" (for example a Streetfighter).
If you imagine a scale, not a binary switch, with "Experience" on one end and "Gameplay" (for lack of a better word) at the other, every game that exists will fall somewhere along it; Dragons Lair will be very near the extreme of one end, and Pong will be very near the extreme of the other.
If you took this scale and sampled every game released by major publishers over the last 20 years, you would see drift from the "gameplay" end of the spectrum towards the "experience" end.
Nintendo aren't even immune from this, which is why you have things like cutscenes in Mario Sunshine and Galaxy.
That's definitely true now, but I would guess almost certainly wasn't before they hit it big.
I agree with the rest of your post.
I don't believe either of these statements to be true.
5 weeks, so it should be Aug 31 to Oct 4, I think.
It's now at #33, overtaking FIFA14. It won't stop climbing.
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
For what it's worth, Smash 3DS preorders have already overtaken Destiny PS4 for the #4 spot on Amazon US this month.
For September (so far):
#4 - Smash Bros 3DS (preorders)
#5 - Destiny (PS4)
#6 - Destiny (XB1)
#7 - Destiny PS4 bundle
#8 - Hyrule Warriors
#9 - Destiny (360)
For September (so far):
#4 - Smash Bros 3DS (preorders)
#5 - Destiny (PS4)
#6 - Destiny (XB1)
#7 - Destiny PS4 bundle
#8 - Hyrule Warriors
#9 - Destiny (360)
SwiftDeath
Member
So I guess this proves something important then
Amazon counts pre-order sales of a SKU within the month it's pre-ordered and doesn't count it again during the month of release. Everyone else probably already knew that I guess
I say that because on the yearly Amazon chart Destiny PS4 bundle, Destiny PS4 and Destiny XB1 are all ahead of 3DS Smash
Amazon counts pre-order sales of a SKU within the month it's pre-ordered and doesn't count it again during the month of release. Everyone else probably already knew that I guess
I say that because on the yearly Amazon chart Destiny PS4 bundle, Destiny PS4 and Destiny XB1 are all ahead of 3DS Smash
theprodigy
Member
You've developed....quite a bit of an over-reliance on Amazon lately.
edit: might as well anyway since SwiftDeath brought it up, yearly totals for these instead
#13 - Destiny (PS4)
#14 - Destiny (XB1)
(#16 - Titanfall (XB1) (just for a comparsion, but I wouldn't take this too seriously))
#33 - Destiny PS4 bundle
#39 - Super Smash Bros. 3DS
#60 - Destiny (360)
#73 - Hyrule Warriors
it's worth nothing that if XB1 Destiny>Titanfall is actually reflected in NPD as well, Destiny would be well on it's way to hitting 3 million (but I doubt that)
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
Yeh I agree with you there about that not likely being the case for Destiny. If it is though, huge props to Destiny. I'm just posting the Amazon #s for w/e reason these days. I wouldn't call it a reliance per se, as I've seen these #s be completely wrong before. It never really seems to show absolute numbers at all, but at least sometimes seems to hint at trends. It's not like we get any other data points to look at in the meantime lol. At the very least, Disney Infinity 2.0 doesn't look like the kind of game folks buy at Amazon lol? It's pretty low across the board in terms of rankings.
Yeh that's what I started noticing. Wasn't really aware of that myself before, but it makes sense.
SwiftDeath
Member
Honestly I'm starting to wonder if Disney Infinity 2.0 bombed to be honest. Doesn't seem to have done very well in European markets
theprodigy
Member
Its chart position looks less than impressive, but there was this tidbit from last week's UK numbers:
Chart-Track said:
and in 2013, it dropped 22% for two consecutive weeks after launch, too bad FIFA 15 means we don't get %s for anything this time
chart positions though (DI and DI 2.0):
DI
overall: 3->4->5
360: 6->8->11
Wii: 11->13->14
PS3: 9->15->17
Wii U: 24->not in top 40 x2
DI 2.0
overall: 2->3->???
360: 5->13 (FIFA 15 shoved this down 4 spots though....lol)
PS3: 10->21
PS4: 13->40 (lmao)
XB1: 17->not in top 40
Wii U: 20->not in top 40
also I don't really know why they removed the Wii version
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
Yeh... I'd hope not... Disney got rid of a lot of their other game franchises to make this franchise... At the same time, this is the type of title that sells during the holidays and at storefronts imo and likely isn't a day 1 purchase I'd think. I guess we'll see how Skylanders does in comparison.
SwiftDeath
Member
I forgot about that. I guess relative rankings isn't really conducive to the determining the health of a software products sales when it doesn't need to be top dog to be profitable. Perhaps it'll just have really good legs as Zsaber suggested as a possibility
Hopefully Sept. NPD will let us know although I guess that'd be one of the lesser requested software sales
metalslimer
Member
I would think it would be more of a holiday item so I don't think we'll know either way until after the holidays are over.
theprodigy
Member
wait.....does Disney Infinity pull most of its sales in the US, or not?
cause it showed up as #10 in the overall 2013 rankings in NPD, and I would think getting that spot requires a pretty big number of sales
edit: Minecraft>Disney Infinity in 2013, and the former had 1862k, so Disney Infinity<1862k in 2013
also for that matter, can someone provide the sales cutoff for the top 10 annual chart?
cause it showed up as #10 in the overall 2013 rankings in NPD, and I would think getting that spot requires a pretty big number of sales
edit: Minecraft>Disney Infinity in 2013, and the former had 1862k, so Disney Infinity<1862k in 2013
also for that matter, can someone provide the sales cutoff for the top 10 annual chart?
kinda crazy but destiny ps4 bundle has outsold the standalone xbox one version of the game for the month of september.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/2014-09/videogames/?tag=n-20#1
nintendo fans can be happy too as smash bros (preorders) is the top game for the month that had destiny as well.
EDIT: looks like it has been kinda covered above lol
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/2014-09/videogames/?tag=n-20#1
nintendo fans can be happy too as smash bros (preorders) is the top game for the month that had destiny as well.
EDIT: looks like it has been kinda covered above lol
Agreed.
It does present weird situations that are fun to note in software, though, such as: Bloodborne collector's edition has sold more than XBO in September. That's weird.
I thought that was kind of inevitable to me. You should look at the yearly chart to be impressed where the Destiny PS4 bundle is.
However back to September, even the non-bundled PS4 still outsold X1. I'm curious if this will be reflected in the next NPD. I hope Aqua or cream give us the PS4 SKU splits.
SwiftDeath
Member
While I too would love for Aqua or Cream to give us the percentage of PS4 HW that is the bundle, even if they don't we can kind of judge Amazon's placements this month on how close PS4 is to doubling XB1 sales. There doesn't seem to be any other notable XB1 SKU being sold for the month of September. The Madden bundle sold out quickly and was clearly not a large allocation. And I doubt the kinect bundle is a significant portion of the sales. As such the fact that both the Destiny bundle and the normal PS4 SKU place higher than the normal XB1 SKU would suggest PS4 sold double XB1.
I'm don't think that's actually very likely though
theprodigy
Member
So 2 days of Smash Bros sales and then the prediction thread should go up right?
I wonder if we'll get some PR from Nintendo on this
I wonder if we'll get some PR from Nintendo on this
SwiftDeath
Member
Depends on Donny, sometimes he likes to make them earlier so as to give people plenty of time, other times they're made later as I'm sure he has other things that keep him busy and so on