underberg
Member
jRPGs=Japanese RPGs.
aRPG and tRPG are jRPG if developed in Japan.
Pokémon is a jRPG and yes it's the best selling jRPG franchise of all time and by a huge margin.
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NPD: The top Best selling Jrpgs of all time (5th & 6th)
- Thread starter Afro Republican
- Start date
- Sales-Age
jRPGs=Japanese RPGs.
aRPG and tRPG are jRPG if developed in Japan.
Pokémon is a jRPG and yes it's the best selling jRPG franchise of all time and by a huge margin.
woigemok
Banned
He's also left out Pokemon despite being a turn-based RPG series
Afro Republican
Banned
1. I never said the Yugioh game sold under 500k, your original point was that "ps1 yugioh games sold 1 million" and I pointed out only one PSX game sold 1 million. The conclusion that the PS2 yugioh sold under 500k came from you not me. It's also not an rpg.
2. Nope, you can go back and look at some Jrpg lists and you'll see in many cases that tactics was under strategy. It's not really relevant anyway, right now you seem to desperately be trying to find something wrong with accurate NPD numbers so this isn't a good faith argument anyway from you.
3. Pokemon Stadium is not an rpg.. I have no diea why you think it's one, because it has Pokemon in the title?
4. It only doesn't make sense because you're using wrong numbers. The NPD results are not wrong. I don't know where you're getting them from, VGchartz or whatever, likely the same place were you got the idea Pokemon Stadium was an rpg.
5. The person in the thread you linked even said that it wasn't lock-step with NPD, and there are many games that are quite a bit out of line. Looking at multiple charts I can't find parasite eve outside this one thread. There are some NPD 2005 lists one by the same poster, and Parasite eve isn't on that either.
The issue is you have no idea what you're talking about. Please try to use reliable sources like NPD and not whatever you're using. Especially since you seem to think Pokemon Stadium is an rpg.
underberg
Member
1. I've already clarified that I mistook the PS2 Yu-Gi-Oh game as a PS1 game (just misreading the label). My point is, as of now, that Yu-Gi-Oh should be counted in the list as it is technically as a jRPG (trading card game developed in Japan are classified as such). Two entries (one on PS1 and one on PS2) sold way above 500.000 units hence they should be on your list.
2. The jRPG label includes tRPG as well hence Final Fantasy Tactics should be included in your list. If you want to make a proper list you should follow the most common way of classify games.
3. Pokémon Stadium is a jRPG. Why shouldn't be one? There are turn-based battles and such.
4. I'm using the same source you claim to use: NPD.
5. Then why the games you have on your list should come from NPD...? Maybe they were copied and pasted from the original list I linked and no one checked whether they came from NPD to begin with.
As of March 31, 2003, Square shipped more 890.000 units of Parasite "abroad" (which, as the game wasn't release in PAL countries, means North America): (the source is Square itself). Now, there might be some discrepancies between shipped units and sold-to-consumers units and also NPD didn't track Canada before 2003 hence Square numbers contain also Canadian numbers while NPD wouldn't but it is literally impossible there have been more than 390.000 unsold units in the United States + Canadian units; hence Parasite Eve definitely sold 500.000 units in the territory.
I have access to NPD numbers and, really, your numbers are off: inaccurate and incomplete.
But please, as you are the original poster, enlight us: from where did you get these data? What is your primary source? Do you have access to NPD or did you simply copy and paste the list from what was circulating on the Web back then? Because then you're claiming something you can't claim, that is these are NPD data.
Data are not accurate and you even confirmed that by mentioning Paper Mario. You basically said that Paper Mario on GC sold 150.000+ units in the span of one month and a half-two months more than one year after launch (which is, of course, literally impossible).
Afro Republican
Banned
1. It's not a JRPG, and no the term JRPG has nothing to do with region, but regardless it's just the same as the card game, it's not a Jrpg.
2. Again no.
3. Pokemon Stadium is not an rpg, even back in the day it wasn't called an rpg.
4. No you linked one of your sources and even the guy i the thread said it wasn't NPD.
5. Not all the numbers are the same, so I have no idea what you're getting at. Looking at 2005 NPD as of sept the range is about the same.
You are making odd assumptions. NPD is consistent for months of Parasite Even not being on the charts. You already pointed out some issues that may effect numbers. But NPD has been reliable for a long time and I don't think it would suddenly be wrong in 2005. This isn't the 90's.
You don't have access to NPD numbers. I do, and Neogaf does. Neogafs numbers all seem to contradict your claims and they used to post NPD here regularly before 2007 (in large lists anyway)
You've already starting using wikipedia which is very odd if you were using NPD numbers.
All numbers are directly from NPD, and the numbers I got match the same numbers I can find on GAF as well. Where are you getting your NPD numbers from Vgchartz?
underberg
Member
1. Of course the term does have everything to do with the region. jRPG means Japanese RPG and RPGs developed in Japan are considered jRPGs. tRPG and aRPG might be jRPGs if developed within Japan. Anyway, you can explicitly say what you mean for jRPG so we can clear this up.
2. What does define a jRPG in your opinion?
3. Which factors don't allow Pokémon Stadium to be a jRPG?
4. I linked the original NeoGAF post to show you that even the list you used comes from a source that did have Parasite Eve.
5. I'm not making odd assumptions. I'm looking at publicly available data as NPD data can't be shared, unless those everyone can find online and might or might not be from NPD. Square shipped 890.000 units in NA and according to your data (which are copied and pasted from the Web) Parasite Eve didn't sell more than 500.000 units: ok.
Of course I'm not using VGChartz.
If you have access to NPD you can post a list of the best-selling jRPGs as of now---why stopping at an arbitrary date (which you can't even pin down! Is it October 2004? Is it November? Who knows)? Why using data that are publicly available which might be or might not be from NPD?
The truth is that you have a publicly available list supposedly coming from NPD and you shared it to make a thread over here but you can't explain discrepancies coming from your own statements (the Paper Mario discrepancy) nor those coming from the very list you used---on top of explicitly excluding games that the world considers jRPGs.
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underberg
Member
It is worth commenting further on the discrepancies of these data, which were copied and pasted from charts everyone can find online (so the OP doesn't have any inside source in NPD, and it shows):
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door was released in October 2004. According to NPD, it sold around 190.000 units during its launch month. The game sold additional 143.000 units the next month, according to November 2004 NPD data. Paper Mario sold around 333.000 units during its first two months. The OP is now saying that the game was at 653,839 by the end of the year which means that he is saying that the game sold 150.000+ units during November and December 2005, more than one year after launch! Indeed, if it was below 500.000 units "around X360 launch" (he can't even pin down the exact date of such data), it means that it must have sold 150.000+ units during the last two months of the year. So according to the poster and following NPD data, the game sold 333.000 units between October and November 2004, then sold below 167.000 units from December 2004 up to "around X360 launch" so say October 2005 and then sold 150.000+ units in November and December 2005. Very weird and odd performance if you ask me.
In fact, another list which was circulating in NeoGAF at the time listing NPD data has Paper Mario at 653,839 units by the end of September 2005! The list was published by a well-known leaker of NPD data at that time. The same list has Star Ocean at 514,967... Again, by the end of September!
These are the same data you are mentioning: how is it possible they are "as of the end of 2005" when they were published on this website in October 2005?
Again, you don't know what you're talking about. You found some data and you are publishing them for Internet glory. Next.
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door was released in October 2004. According to NPD, it sold around 190.000 units during its launch month. The game sold additional 143.000 units the next month, according to November 2004 NPD data. Paper Mario sold around 333.000 units during its first two months. The OP is now saying that the game was at 653,839 by the end of the year which means that he is saying that the game sold 150.000+ units during November and December 2005, more than one year after launch! Indeed, if it was below 500.000 units "around X360 launch" (he can't even pin down the exact date of such data), it means that it must have sold 150.000+ units during the last two months of the year. So according to the poster and following NPD data, the game sold 333.000 units between October and November 2004, then sold below 167.000 units from December 2004 up to "around X360 launch" so say October 2005 and then sold 150.000+ units in November and December 2005. Very weird and odd performance if you ask me.
In fact, another list which was circulating in NeoGAF at the time listing NPD data has Paper Mario at 653,839 units by the end of September 2005! The list was published by a well-known leaker of NPD data at that time. The same list has Star Ocean at 514,967... Again, by the end of September!
These are the same data you are mentioning: how is it possible they are "as of the end of 2005" when they were published on this website in October 2005?
Again, you don't know what you're talking about. You found some data and you are publishing them for Internet glory. Next.
underberg
Member
It seems pretty accurate based on what, exactly?
Afro Republican
Banned
We have numeours members with access to old NPD and not ONE has come to defend you because you're wrong.
These numbers are directly from NPD when they were posted. You only posted one link that even the OP of that thread said the Link wasn't lock with NPD.
Your lack in logic requires there to be no sales in October. You're trying really hard to take things out of context to make up a fake narrative just like the other moron that wants Pokemon on the list when the point of the thread is consoles.
All numbers are from the very leakers you are trying to say contradict these numbers. You have no idea what you're talking about and frankly you're alone on this so everyone else will be moving on. Have a nice day.
johntown
Banned
Umm NPD data.......are you saying that is not accurate?
Even if it isn't if I had to take a guess myself I would put most of them in similar positions with a few adjustments.
ValiantTraveler
Member
Threat title should include "as of late 2005" since some people missed that.
Also how come a Legend of Dragoon sequel never got greenlit? Apparently it sold really well. Maybe the team disbanded?
Also how come a Legend of Dragoon sequel never got greenlit? Apparently it sold really well. Maybe the team disbanded?
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Afro Republican
Banned
Because it was a flop. It sold 823,959 in NPD and 355,240 in japan.
Keep in mind it released in 1999 and was a high budget attempt by Sony to make a Final Fantasy competitor.
In comparison, Final Fantasy IX, the worst selling mainline game on the PSX and overshadowed by X on the PS2 quickly, sold over 1 million in NPD and sold 2.7 million in Japan. And that came out 1 year after Legend of Dragoon (IX came out in 2000), with not that much promotion compared to Vii and Viii and was overshadowed by X. Yet still vastly outperformed Legend of Dragoon.
I'm sure Sony was feeling that in the morning.
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underberg
Member
I'm not saying these numbers are not from NPD: I'm just saying the list should have many more games according to the very NPD data you're citing and that you've simply copied and pasted from the Web.
If you have access to NPD data why stopping at an arbitrary date you can't even pin down?
You mentioned Paper Mario and Star Ocean numbers stating that they were as of the end of 2005: however, the same exact numbers can be found on this very forum in a list posted in October 2005 referred as September data! But you say that those data are "as of the end of 2005".
You can't even cite correctly the data you found on the Web. That is why I said the list is inaccurate and totally arbitrary.
underberg
Member
Wrong. Legend of Dragoon was released in December 1999 in Japan and June 2000 in NA. Final Fantasy IX was release in June 2000 in Japan and in November 2000 in NA.
underberg
Member
It doesn't make sense to write "the list seems accurate" if you know it comes from NPD.
You were implying it seemed accurate according to some arbitrary personal measurement as you are explicitly saying in the second sentence.
Afro Republican
Banned
No it doesn't, these are the games that were in what I have access to. The date isn't arbitrary either, until this point you could get a long list of the best selling titles from NPD, that stopped being easy to access around this time, even on Neogaf it stopped at 2005 and ended up just being leaks for occasional monthly results of a top limited number of games instead of lists of 100-200 games like before. (outside of the est selling games of the year but even that eventually stopped later on.)
Nothing inaccurate. But feel free to enjoy the thread instead of desperately trying to use a source that even the person you linked it from said wasn't accurate. We will be continuing the thread as scheduled.
Afro Republican
Banned
I wasn't wrong at all. WTF are you talking about? I said Sony intended to release Legend Dragoon as an FF7 competitor and accurately stated Dragoon released in 1999 (which is accurate) and that IX released the next year in 2000 (Also accurate) and that IX ended up vastly outperforming Dragoon (Accurate)
You seem to be here just to pick fights.
KINDERFELD
Banned
Good to see that FF8 sold more than that garbage called FF9.
underberg
Member
These data have been circulating for years. If being able to Google "NPD data 2005" means having access to NPD data then NPD should close down, lol
First fact: you can't exactly pin down the date of tracking. You post data without knowing to which period these data are referring to. October 2005? November 2005? Who knows. Around when X360 launch---pretty arbitrary date.
Second fact: the game is missing notable games that were present in NPD list shared back then---games like Parasite Eve, for which even Square confirmed a high shipment in NA (surely above 500.000 units). You can't explain the lack of such games.
Third fact: you're arbitrary excluding games because in your personal opinion are not jRPGs---even if they fall in the category, like Final Fantasy Tactics.
Fourth fact, which is the funniest: you wrote: "Paper Mario 653,839 only buy the end of the year of 2005 which is a bit later than this threads cut off point. That's why it's not on the list. Star Ocean 3 sold 514,967 late at the end of 2005 so would also be after the cut off date." but the same list from which you got these data listed THE SAME GAMES WITH THE SAME SALES IN OCTOBER 2005! How can these data be "at the end of 2005" when in October 2005 these data were circulating online?
If you can explain all of these things you might have some credibility otherwise it become clearer and clearer that you got a random list from the Web and you posted without knowing much about it.
You wrote: "And that came out 1 year after Legend of Dragoon (IX came out in 2000)"---that is, Final Fantasy IX was released one year after Legend of Dragoon (it's pretty clear what you wrote, no need to interpret anything).
Wrong. Final Fantasy IX came out 8 months after Legend of Dragoon in Japan and 6 months after Legend of Dragoon in North America. It seems you have some confusion with numbers.
Afro Republican
Banned
I didn't get the numbers from google. But I see you're going to continue trolling and trying to derail the thread.
You have no idea what you're talking about, you're taking separate posts out of context trying to create a narrative no one else has been confused about.
You just told the previous poster these are NPD numbers and criticized him for saying "it seems they are accurate" and here is the quote:
You're full of crap, stop derailing the thread or get reported. There's been a ton of new troll users coming out of nowhere and you seem to be campaigning to run for the sames office.
NPD numbers are accurate. The thread will continue without you, continuing insulting and aggressive posts from you will be ignored.
johntown
Banned
Why not? What is wrong with NPD? Why do you even care? I can make a comment and a personal opinion about whatever I want.
I think the list seems accurate. If you don't I could care less. Are you the Internet accuracy police?
underberg
Member
Given the fact that you can't even explain contradictions between publicly available NPD data that have been circulating online since forever and your statements on those very data, it really seems you got these data from the Web and that's it. You don't have access to NPD data. Otherwise, you can explain:
1. the exact date these data are referring to;
2. why in September 2005 we had, according to NPD (numbers you even confirmed!), Paper Mario above 600.000 units and Star Ocean 3 above 500.000 units and these games are missing from you list if your list is "around when 360 launched"?
3. Where's Parasite Eve, from which even Square confirmed a high shipment in the US and NPD confirmed it sold 500.000+ units?
If you wanna post a list and being reliable you should explain those contradictions.
Then, why you don't answer to any of these questions?
First fact: you can't exactly pin down the date of tracking. You post data without knowing to which period these data are referring to. October 2005? November 2005? Who knows. Around when X360 launch---pretty arbitrary date.
Second fact: the list is missing notable games that were present in NPD list shared back then---games like Parasite Eve, for which even Square confirmed a high shipment in NA (surely above 500.000 units). You can't explain the lack of such games.
Third fact: you're arbitrary excluding games because in your personal opinion are not jRPGs---even if they fall in the category, like Final Fantasy Tactics.
Fourth fact, which is the funniest: you wrote: "Paper Mario 653,839 only buy the end of the year of 2005 which is a bit later than this threads cut off point. That's why it's not on the list. Star Ocean 3 sold 514,967 late at the end of 2005 so would also be after the cut off date." but the same list from which you got these data listed THE SAME GAMES WITH THE SAME SALES IN OCTOBER 2005! How can these data be "at the end of 2005" when in October 2005 these data were circulating online?
These are the contradictions of your statements. I'm not denying these are NPD data: I have problems with what stated above.
Wait: I asked him why he was thinking they "seem accurate" because he didn't mention NPD and it seems that he thought they seems accurate for arbitrary reason.
Oh, the list is not accurate because it is missing games. Paper Mario sold 500.000+ as of September 2005 as mentioned by the same list from which you got these data!
I'm just stating facts. You can't answer any of those contradictions. If you want to discuss about data you should be able to answer, simple and clean. Numbers are accurate, the list is not as explained.
I just think we can't judge numbers by ourselves. I trust data only if coming from an official source. If I don't know the source I don't even care whether data "seem" accurate or not. From your post it seems you considered the list as accurate not because data were coming from NPD but because of your personal feelings.
Also, the list is missing a lot of games according to NPD itself: Paper Mario on GameCube, Final Fantasy Tactics and Parasite Eve on PS1, Star Ocean 3 on PS2.
Afro Republican
Banned
Final Fantasy VII has always been my favourite, it was magical
It's lasted this long at the top, so it's clear Square hasn't been able to get that same feeling back for many people.
theclaw135
Banned
Pokemon Stadium is an expansion pack for an RPG, and features RPG battle mechanics, but does not have RPG progression when played on its own.
underberg
Member
You wrote: "Paper Mario 653,839 only buy the end of the year of 2005 which is a bit later than this threads cut off point. That's why it's not on the list. Star Ocean 3 sold 514,967 late at the end of 2005 so would also be after the cut off date." but the same list from which you got these data listed THE SAME GAMES WITH THE SAME SALES IN OCTOBER 2005! How can these data be "at the end of 2005" when in October 2005 these data were circulating online?
I might agree here the lines are blurrier but still, featuring RPG battle mechanics should be enough to be a role-playing game.
underberg
Member
Final Fantasy VII has always been my favourite, it was magical
Worth noticing that KH sold more than FFVII in the US. Source: Square Enix.
Afro Republican
Banned
Continuing the troll and showing you have no idea what you're talking about.
Jrpg has nothing to do with region, and Turn-based isn't an rpg battle mechanic. Turn-based is in other genres like strategy. Pokemon Stadium is labeled nowhere I can find as an rpg from back then or now.
Also Jrpg was a style, that's why CRPGS became Wrpgs when they came to consoles in a higher quantity. If it was about region they would have not called Wrpgs instead of Crpgs, when Ultima was ported to the SNES. Or that GS review wouldn't say "Japanese-styled-rpg-gameplay", which was also applied to games like Shadow Madness which is a Jrpg, but wasn't made in japan.
I guess if you try to rewrite history it's based on region. (Although the people who claim that call Korean rpgs jrpgs to so that's a conflict)
JohannCK
Member
To this day I still don't quite get what people mean when they say "JRPG". That's not even a genre. One would assume that it means RPGs made in Japan but I've seen people use it to mean "made in RPG Maker".
(Then again, people apparently consider Monster Hunter and Detroit to be RPGs these days, and browsing the RPG section in Steam turns up titles like Assassin's Creed, DotA and Bioshock, so...)
Is this worldwide or NA only, by the way? Because Super Robot Wars Alpha (Japan only) sold 750,000 which would put it at #9 on that list. SRW Alpha 3 (also Japan only) had 644,000, and the more recent SRWV (Japan + Asia) has also been confirmed to have hit over 500,00 which won it the gold prize at the Playstation Awards this year. Oops, right, NPD.
(Then again, people apparently consider Monster Hunter and Detroit to be RPGs these days, and browsing the RPG section in Steam turns up titles like Assassin's Creed, DotA and Bioshock, so...)
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Afro Republican
Banned
Thread title says NPD.
As for your quote here, the confusion of what "JRPG" is shouldn't be a thing. Original Computer RPgs and Console rpgs were separated by style, especially over time, and Crpgs ported to consoles would be referred to as Computer Rpg ports on consoles.
As the 90's was ending and the Xbox and PS2 were coming in and more and Crpgs started sharing the same space, they changed it from Crpgs and crpgs to Wrpgs and Jrpgs.
It was always about the common gameplay differences (which is why Shadow Madness was called a Jrpg despite not being a Japanese game.). This also goes into RPG Maker (which started in like 93-95) which focused on making console style rpgs on your PC, later Jrpgs.
underberg
Member
You wrote: "Paper Mario 653,839 only buy the end of the year of 2005 which is a bit later than this threads cut off point. That's why it's not on the list. Star Ocean 3 sold 514,967 late at the end of 2005 so would also be after the cut off date." but the same list from which you got these data listed THE SAME GAMES WITH THE SAME SALES IN OCTOBER 2005! How can these data be "at the end of 2005" when in October 2005 these data were circulating online?
Also, jRPG means Japanese RPG for a reason. Otherwise, you can pin down exactly which features must be in a game such that it can be called jRPG.
PumpkinPie
Banned
I agree with this post.
Afro Republican
Banned
You've already been debunked with your out of context numbers so I don't know why you keep posting it everyone knows you're just a troll. Even picking fights with the other user for no reason.
Also Jrpg has a definition HISTORICALLY so you arguing against my CORRECT definition of it is pointless. Crpg became Wrpg and crpg became Jrpgs, those are facts. They cannot be disputed, it was always based on one side having a common style contrasting to the other. Whether we need those terms now or need new separators for modern day is a completely different argument.
Also this whole thing stems from you calling Pokemon Stadium an rpg when several sites and publications also say that the game IS NOT an rpg, Which is just something you're way too stubborn to admit being wrong with. Give up.
underberg
Member
I just want you to clarify contradictions in your statements. If you can't clarity them then it is clear you don't know what you're talking about.
You wrote: "Paper Mario 653,839 only buy the end of the year of 2005 which is a bit later than this threads cut off point. That's why it's not on the list. Star Ocean 3 sold 514,967 late at the end of 2005 so would also be after the cut off date." but the same list from which you got these data listed THE SAME GAMES WITH THE SAME SALES IN OCTOBER 2005! How can these data be "at the end of 2005" when in October 2005 these data were circulating online?
goldenpp72
Member
Ignoring the Mario and Pokemon RPGs seems weird.
underberg
Member
Only home consoles.
Also many other games are not present because of "reasons".
In fact, the OP just found this list online from many years ago and decided to post it without realizing it was incomplete.
Afro Republican
Banned
It is complete, I see your still trying to make an argument that you continue to be alone in. Poor guy. Can't let it go.
underberg
Member
It is not.
The same very list you used to build up this list contains games like Paper Mario and Star Ocean 3 that would definitely be in your chart.
You said that those data (Paper Mario: 653,839; Star Ocean 3: 514,967) are by the end of 2005 but the same very data were published in October 2005. How is it possible that they were "by the end of 2005"? They were not.
They were by the same time of the other data you posted (they come from the same source!) but you still dismiss them.
This on top of not acknowledging Final Fantasy Tactics is a jRPG and data about Parasite Eve, which sold way above 500k in the US.
You have yet to reply to your own contradictions.
underberg
Member
Paper Mario on GC is also in the list; it sold 653,839 by the end of September 2005.
Unfortunately, the author of the thread can't acknowledge its presence even if the data he/she's using also contain data of Paper Mario on GC.
Afro Republican
Banned
Sad Sony didn't give it another try. At this point though it's way too late.
SlashBringingHasher
Banned
not surprised. PSX and PS2 is most of the list. when your BIG exclusive JRPG for the PS3 is no other than White Knight Chronicles. you know Sony doesn't give a shit about the Japanese market anymore
SlashBringingHasher
Banned
they don't have the talent to even make a game like that. they have studio japan. which are two or three small teams which the biggest game they can make is probably gravity rush.
and polyphony.
to make that kind of game they'd need a new studio.