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Nutrition experts, question about keto diet

Cutty Flam

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Replenishing glycogen with keto, I was reading into it earlier yesterday, but am somewhat confused still

Can the research be trusted? Is there even much research to prove that low carb diets replenish muscle glycogen the same as a moderate or high carb diet will? My aim is to build as much muscle as I can in time, and am trying to figure out if keto will hinder my progress?

Any personal stories? I can definitely stay leaner and healthier during keto, but am not sure if I can have the energy levels to bust ass workout for workout and in time reach my goals
 

Cutty Flam

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Most diets have someone telling you the "science" behind why it's amazing and someone else is here to tell you why it's terrible.
Definitely true. I doubt there is much science behind it yet, am hoping to hear from some hardcore athletes if there are any here to see how strict keto diet impacted their progress when on a serious regimen to pack on size, strength, maybe power or improving steadily other components of their fitness and athletic ability

I think it would be ideal to eat a strict keto diet because I believe only the smallest, most necessary amount of sugar should be eaten to meet your needs, and nothing more. Keto diet or just a low carb diet can ensure that. But what I am not sure it can do, is replenish muscle cells’ glycogen stores efficiently with such a small amount of carbohydrates
 

Taxexemption

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You should be looking for stuff like that, and the Joe Rogan podcast.


Bottom line is, you can do it. I don't know if it's better or not. A different ultra marathon runners basically said "I eat whatever I want and drink a lot of beer."


Most of nutrition is not real science. They don't know why certain diets work or some don't. Most of the nutrition research is funded by people who have agenda's, and so real science never gets done. Through most of my life, fat was considered bad for you. They either didn't know, or didn't teach that you need it for your body to store fat soluble vitamins which are important, and to generate sex hormones. We basically demonized fat until the last few years, and advertising low fat products is still really popular.


Eating lots of carbs causes hormones to spike, which causes hunger, you can avoid that with a low carb diet or keto, or by just only eating complex rather than simple carbs (By that I mean actual vegetables that are minimally processed and not anything else that has carbs).


The problem is that in nature only fruit, which would have been available at fairly limited times actually has a lot of sugar that can be easily processed. Everything else has more fiber, which means your body processes it slower, which means that your body will very slowly produce insulin in response to it, and very little will change. It's a recent phenomenon that we can have a lot of simple sugar which causes are insulin levels to go crazy which sets off a hormone chain reaction that causes a huge hunger spike a short time later.


Even with the fruit example most fruit found naturally in nature is far smaller than what we buy at the grocery store. Even if you gorge yourself on whatever you found in the wild it probably would not have had any negative effects, and even if it did that would be like for a few days out of the year. We've never had access to so much sugar.
 
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Super Mario

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Definitely true. I doubt there is much science behind it yet, am hoping to hear from some hardcore athletes if there are any here to see how strict keto diet impacted their progress when on a serious regimen to pack on size, strength, maybe power or improving steadily other components of their fitness and athletic ability

I think it would be ideal to eat a strict keto diet because I believe only the smallest, most necessary amount of sugar should be eaten to meet your needs, and nothing more. Keto diet or just a low carb diet can ensure that. But what I am not sure it can do, is replenish muscle cells’ glycogen stores efficiently with such a small amount of carbohydrates
Personally, I don't know of many athletes that live on keto. You need some carbs for energy. Natural carbs are the way to go. Any diet will tell you that limiting sugar and processed carbs is a good thing.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Your body is designed to use both ketone bodies and glycogen.

An athlete doesn't tend to improve themselves by ignoring tools or restricting themselves from trying routes to get faster and stronger. Either your liver can make your glycogen or you can eat it. Your body will use both.

The science behind keto seems to target stored fat loss, specifically. It gets the person's insulin levels down, their sensitivity up, and it gets lipolysis going when it might have otherwise stalled (due to diet and chronically-high insulin). These are all desirable effects.

The big question mark is whether keto provides any special benefits to people who are trying to build muscle. Obviously, people on keto can build muscle, but I wonder if they are being held back.
 

Whataborman

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keto is the silliest shit ever

have some bread have some meat, push and pull weight

keep your calories in check and enjoy your life
This.

Weight loss and weight gain both come down to calories. Diets like keto, intermittent fasting, etc... essentially all just boil down to calorie restriction in one form or another.

Figure out what your total daily energy expenditure is (Google spreadsheets for tracking your TDEE) and eat slightly below that to lose weight, slightly above that to gain weight. Using a app like Lose it to track calories makes things a lot easier too.

If you're trying to build muscle, track your macros as well. You're going to need protein, carbs, and fat to build at the most optimum rate.
 

Tranquil

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Been doing the low carb low calorie thing for almost two years (30 carbs & 1400 cals max a day). Love it, when I first tried it I was loosing 10 pounds a month and was at my goal weight in 4 months. Now I eat whatever I want Friday, Saturday and Sunday, then go back on the diet Mon - Thur. Keeps my weight in check and gives me something to look forward to on the weekends, like today!
 

poppabk

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The short answer is no, you won't have as much stored energy for your muscles on keto. The ultra marathon runner someone pointed out above is still using carbs 'tactically'.
If you aren't doing very aggressive workouts though you should be fine.
 

Greedings

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Your body is designed to use both ketone bodies and glycogen.

An athlete doesn't tend to improve themselves by ignoring tools or restricting themselves from trying routes to get faster and stronger. Either your liver can make your glycogen or you can eat it. Your body will use both.

The science behind keto seems to target stored fat loss, specifically. It gets the person's insulin levels down, their sensitivity up, and it gets lipolysis going when it might have otherwise stalled (due to diet and chronically-high insulin). These are all desirable effects.

The big question mark is whether keto provides any special benefits to people who are trying to build muscle. Obviously, people on keto can build muscle, but I wonder if they are being held back.
The use of chronic or short term keto diets is really interesting. It's pretty clear from mouse models, that short term (<4 weeks) is purely beneficial for metabolic markers and insulin sensitivity. Long term? The jury is out, seems to start accumulating pretty bad effects on immune cells. Whether this is true in humans, who knows? But it's not particularly well studied.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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The use of chronic or short term keto diets is really interesting. It's pretty clear from mouse models, that short term (<4 weeks) is purely beneficial for metabolic markers and insulin sensitivity. Long term? The jury is out, seems to start accumulating pretty bad effects on immune cells. Whether this is true in humans, who knows? But it's not particularly well studied.
The process of folding proteins and the creation of enzymes requires carbohydrates. I think if you're gonna do keto, might as well go all the way into fasting (not just intermittent, but true 24+ hour fasts) and reap all the numerous additional benefits. Keto seems like half-assing it, personally. My guess is the immunity problems pop up due to low carbohydrates.

Completely outside of the topic of keto, nutritionists and endocrinologists have indicated that "feed a cold, starve a fever" is true. Starving the host causes it to enter autophagy, which wrecks havoc on bacterial infections through the body. Starving a cold (virus) actually stresses the body's protein folding capabilities (the main pathway for virulent infection and replication), which makes the host more vulnerable. Feeding the host with extra carbs allows for accelerated protein-folding (repair). These are all fairly well-understood metabolic processes, so it's funny to see an old adage get affirmed. The point is that keto hinders the body's ability to fold proteins during a time of crisis, which may result in the immune cell issues you referenced.

The body can tolerate keto for awhile because our liver produces a small amount on demand, but it's going to cause problems if the adherent also wishes to build muscle at the same time. In my mind, there's a line between conditioning your body through stress or abusing your body. The end-goal is to earn a net gain of muscle and strength. Keto is just one proposed way of getting there and I think it's a bad long-term tool.

If a person has high bodyfat storage, then they have an insulin problem, it's that simple. It's just a question if it's correctable or not (diabetes). Your bodyfat will not be pulled off the shelf for energy use until three things happen: your body has enough circulation to reach the site of storage (which is why "thick" areas of fat burn "slower"), your cells have enough insulin sensitivity respond to normal levels of insulin, and your insulin levels are low enough to allow lipolysis (fat burning) to take place. There are numerous ways to accomplish some or all of these, and keto just happens to take care of 2 of them in a fairly straightforward way.
 
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Greedings

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The process of folding proteins and the creation of enzymes requires carbohydrates. I think if you're gonna do keto, might as well go all the way into fasting (not just intermittent, but true 24+ hour fasts) and reap all the numerous additional benefits. Keto seems like half-assing it, personally.

The body can tolerate keto for awhile because our liver produces a small amount on demand, but it's going to cause problems if the adherent also wishes to build muscle at the same time. In my mind, there's a line between conditioning your body through stress or abusing your body. The end-goal is to earn a net gain of muscle and strength. Keto is just one proposed way of getting there and I think it's a bad long-term tool.

If a person has high bodyfat storage, then they have an insulin problem, it's that simple. It's just a question if it's correctable or not (diabetes). Your bodyfat will not be pulled off the shelf for energy use until three things happen: your body has enough circulation to reach the site of storage (which is why "thick" areas of fat burn "slower"), your cells have enough insulin sensitivity respond to normal levels of insulin, and your insulin levels are low enough to allow lipolysis (fat burning) to take place. There are numerous ways to accomplish some or all of these, and keto just happens to take care of 2 of them in a fairly straightforward way.
Oh yeah, I didn't get in to fasting, but that's almost purely beneficial. It's also well established in humans. I have some very interesting research on fasting under review, should come out sometime this year.
 

Ribi

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Lost 50lb on keto in 6months so... Something works


And work didn't work out all I did was sit on my ass at my PC and go to school
 
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kingbean

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I've lost 10lbs just cutting back calories-in 2 1/2 week-. It's not that hard. No gimmick, just eat less.

I know that's not what you asked, but if you really want to lose weight you can do it in many different ways, but the easiest by far is just limiting intake.
 
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bati

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Lost 50lb on keto in 6months so... Something works


And work didn't work out all I did was sit on my ass at my PC and go to school
You lost weight because you ate less than you burned, not because of keto. Keto just happened to be a way for you to reach that because calories from carbs tend to accumulate faster than most people realize.

Same goes for intermittent fasting that some people swear by, you don't lose weight because you didn't eat for 16h, you lost weight because you set clear feeding times for yourself and likely ended up skipping a (smaller) meal because of that which pushed you into a caloric deficit.
 

Cutty Flam

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I do research on this in animal models. While I've never looked at glycogen replenishment, the keto mice have really low liver and muscle glycogen compared to the normal mice.
Interesting stuff Greedings, what’s the most interesting aspect about fasting and its benefits in your opinion? And if you din’t mind sharing, what are your current experiments trying to find out?
 

DKehoe

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keto is the silliest shit ever

have some bread have some meat, push and pull weight

keep your calories in check and enjoy your life
Yeh, the thing about these diets is we all know what we should and shouldn't be eating really. A normal healthy diet is sustainable. With something like keto you are just gonna fall off it at some point.
 

infinitys_7th

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Yeh, the thing about these diets is we all know what we should and shouldn't be eating really. A normal healthy diet is sustainable. With something like keto you are just gonna fall off it at some point.
If I cheat, I get sick (like a cold), bloat horribly, get constipated, and retain tons of water. I can gain 10-15 lbs in a couple days around holidays, with a lot of that being water.

Falling off is not an option.
 

DKehoe

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If I cheat, I get sick (like a cold), bloat horribly, get constipated, and retain tons of water. I can gain 10-15 lbs in a couple days around holidays, with a lot of that being water.

Falling off is not an option.
Sure, if you are doing it for health reasons because it's the only diet that suits your system then that's different.
 
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Rat Rage

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Replenishing glycogen with keto, I was reading into it earlier yesterday, but am somewhat confused still

Can the research be trusted? Is there even much research to prove that low carb diets replenish muscle glycogen the same as a moderate or high carb diet will? My aim is to build as much muscle as I can in time, and am trying to figure out if keto will hinder my progress?

Any personal stories? I can definitely stay leaner and healthier during keto, but am not sure if I can have the energy levels to bust ass workout for workout and in time reach my goals
Unless you run a marathon every day and/or are juiced up and train like arnold schwarzenegger every day, you don't even need much to replenish your muscle glycogen. For a regular dude that goes to the gym, it's almost impossible to get his glycogen stores depleted completely.

You can stay lean and healthy and build muscle if you eat a regular diet as well.
 

Zefah

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Staying very low carb 90% or more of the time has allowed me to go from fat to thin and effortlessly keep the weight off for almost a decade now without tracking calories at all. I'd recommend at least giving it a try to anyone to see if it works for you. It's, at a minimum, perfectly safe.
 
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godhandiscen

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I lost 15 pounds going Keto for just a month after I gained some extra weight during the last Christmas break. That fruit cake....

I don’t do full keto anymore, but I stay low carb now. I have gotten very crafty with salads, and over the weekends, we bust out the grill for an epic meat feast.
 
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gunslikewhoa

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Definitely true. I doubt there is much science behind it yet, am hoping to hear from some hardcore athletes if there are any here to see how strict keto diet impacted their progress when on a serious regimen to pack on size, strength, maybe power or improving steadily other components of their fitness and athletic ability

I think it would be ideal to eat a strict keto diet because I believe only the smallest, most necessary amount of sugar should be eaten to meet your needs, and nothing more. Keto diet or just a low carb diet can ensure that. But what I am not sure it can do, is replenish muscle cells’ glycogen stores efficiently with such a small amount of carbohydrates
Zach Bitter holds the world record for 100 mile run and the 12 hour run. He's mostly carnivore.

Or ask this 53-year old:


Strict carnivore. Check out meatrx.com

*edit* i should have read the thread first
 
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LordPezix

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My aim is to build as much muscle as I can in time, and am trying to figure out if keto will hinder my progress?
It seems there is a disconnect in this thread. People are posting about losing weight on keto and you specifically stated your aim was to build as much muscle as possible.

If building as much muscle as you can is your goal you shouldn't be looking into any restrictive diets.

Keto is restrictive, fact.

You should be using every weapon possible in your arsenal. Fats, Carbs, and Proteins when you need them and in the right amount.

I did bodybuilding and I won competitions so I have some knowledge.

If you're trying to build muscle and stay slim-ish you'll hinder your progress over just focusing on building muscle.
 

Cutty Flam

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It seems there is a disconnect in this thread. People are posting about losing weight on keto and you specifically stated your aim was to build as much muscle as possible.

If building as much muscle as you can is your goal you shouldn't be looking into any restrictive diets.

Keto is restrictive, fact.

You should be using every weapon possible in your arsenal. Fats, Carbs, and Proteins when you need them and in the right amount.

I did bodybuilding and I won competitions so I have some knowledge.

If you're trying to build muscle and stay slim-ish you'll hinder your progress over just focusing on building muscle.
Thanks for the input, I think I’ll probably amp up my carbs a bit more. I’ve been trying to eat less than 50g per day if I can but I have been struggling with my training I am pretty sure due to the restrictions

How many grams of carbohydrate did you find to be sufficient? And what about protein in your opinion, how many grams did you feel suited your body well according to your training and lifestyle? If you were winning competitions I would guess you dedicated at least 9 to 12 hours each week busting your ass like a maniac in the gym. Has to require some strict eating habits I would imagine

Really interested in the details you have learned about carb intake, trying to find a sweet spot where I eat the minimum amount of carbs or just right amount I need maximize my efforts and results from the training
 
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Greedings

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Interesting stuff Greedings, what’s the most interesting aspect about fasting and its benefits in your opinion? And if you din’t mind sharing, what are your current experiments trying to find out?
Immune resilience. Fasting makes animals handle severe diseases much better. I also think that how ketones regulate certain epigenetic enzymes is really interesting.
 

Stiflers Mom

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I have read up a bit on carnivore diet lately, and it seems a bit too extreme to me..

Reduce the size of your meals by cooking for yourself, avoid preprocessed foods as much as possible and you will be fine.
 

LordPezix

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Thanks for the input, I think I’ll probably amp up my carbs a bit more. I’ve been trying to eat less than 50g per day if I can but I have been struggling with my training I am pretty sure due to the restrictions

How many grams of carbohydrate did you find to be sufficient? And what about protein in your opinion, how many grams did you feel suited your body well according to your training and lifestyle? If you were winning competitions I would guess you dedicated at least 9 to 12 hours each week busting your ass like a maniac in the gym. Has to require some strict eating habits I would imagine

Really interested in the details you have learned about carb intake, trying to find a sweet spot where I eat the minimum amount of carbs or just right amount I need maximize my efforts and results from the training
First off I'll state the golden standard when it comes to these situations. Everybody is different and everyone needs different things. I was pre-comp 210lbs and 176lbs comp.

I was roughly consuming 220-230g of protein and 240-250g of carbs and 70-80g of fat. I dedicated roughly 24hr in the gym a week. I took it very seriously and it showed.

Carb tuning only came during cutting and literally before going on stage.
If you're building muscle and you're finding yourself weak and or exhausted, increase those carbs.

This really is a situation that takes time to conquer because only you will find out what your body needs.

If you're dead serious about finding that "sweet spot" as you say you need to track EVERYTHING. Your weight, your sleep, your macro/calories, your supplements, your workouts/energy levels.

Track this until you become accustomed to knowing what works and then it will become second nature and you won't have to track anything because the knowledge will be ingrained in your memory and you'll know which adjustments to make and when to make them.

Don't forget to adjust things as your body changes. 200lbs of muscle needs more calories than 160lbs so don't be afraid to up your intake as you get larger or vice versa.

The practice that I used that I still stand by today is complex carbs for meals and in between my workout I would down 2tbsp of sugar with 8oz of water. That was it, sugar water. Simple and effective, for me anyways.
 

Cutty Flam

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First off I'll state the golden standard when it comes to these situations. Everybody is different and everyone needs different things. I was pre-comp 210lbs and 176lbs comp.

I was roughly consuming 220-230g of protein and 240-250g of carbs and 70-80g of fat. I dedicated roughly 24hr in the gym a week. I took it very seriously and it showed.

Carb tuning only came during cutting and literally before going on stage.
If you're building muscle and you're finding yourself weak and or exhausted, increase those carbs.

This really is a situation that takes time to conquer because only you will find out what your body needs.

If you're dead serious about finding that "sweet spot" as you say you need to track EVERYTHING. Your weight, your sleep, your macro/calories, your supplements, your workouts/energy levels.

Track this until you become accustomed to knowing what works and then it will become second nature and you won't have to track anything because the knowledge will be ingrained in your memory and you'll know which adjustments to make and when to make them.

Don't forget to adjust things as your body changes. 200lbs of muscle needs more calories than 160lbs so don't be afraid to up your intake as you get larger or vice versa.

The practice that I used that I still stand by today is complex carbs for meals and in between my workout I would down 2tbsp of sugar with 8oz of water. That was it, sugar water. Simple and effective, for me anyways.
Dude, thank you so much for your expert advice, I really appreciate this. Reading your post sort of made come full circle into some realizations I came to in the past as well as reflect upon my mistakes

I remember 150g of protein was essentially the golden number for my personal needs of protein. I actually remember the day clearly too. I was extremely active and my performance that evening after I had consumed 150 or so grams of protein was on a different level. I think I’ll shoot for that again instead of the 90-110 grams I’ve been getting. I’ve been highly injury prone, dealing with two injuries I’ve gotten very recently and I think it has a lot to do with the intensity of my training coupled with my lack of meeting nutritional needs. I thought I could lose more weight and gain more muscle with less carbs and less protein and have a healthier body in the process but I think you’re 100% right. I reach for bodybuilding type volume, I focus all my brain on mind to muscle connection, perfect form and concentration on such, time under tension is extreme I can get up there on a good session each set when I’m feeling it, I stretch and foam roll and perform self myofascial release techniques as well...I think I’ve been greatly undermining my own needs in regard to my approach and level of training. I need more carbs, probably another meal added each day, definitely need a good 40g additional protein, I think I am always good with fat, water I should aim for two gallons again. And I think that should essentially cover a lot of ground for me. I’m also probably going to get back with creatine supplementation and going forward take caffeine pre and post workout as well to really maximize fat burning and glycogen storage. I may take a page from you and all the other bodybuilders and have an intra-workout drink concoction that will replenish electrolytes and yeah have some simple sugars too. I’ll have to look into a product like that because I never used one before. I always saw the super buff ass dudes messing with it, I probably would have been super well off to have done the same at several points in my training over the past decade....

But it’s all a learning experience. I’m just glad I made this thread. It’s helped me out a lot, thanks for all the help and advice to everyone in. I wouldn’t have recognized my defeating patterns otherwise or have seen a way out of pain and mistakes made nor the path to greater success without all the posters ITT. Seriously, great help and thank you 🙏

From now on I’ll be on a much better path thanks to this reassessing of my approach. Things should start to look up for me finally
 
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