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[Jon Neu]

Riiiiight, talk about moving goalposts... everyone can remember all the talk going around about how "Pfft!... XBO won't hold back next gen doofus!!!, scalability baby!!!"

You know Halo Infinite was in development before even the specs of the Series X were set, do you?

How is acknowledging the truth of Halo Infinite being an Xbox One game a moving goalpost? I swear to fucking God Sony fanboys are like brainless parrots. "Discord!", "FUD!", "SSD!", "Moving goalposts!".

And it was Lockhart the one who was said to have scalability with the Series X, because it was going to be designed to do so. Of course there isn't scalability with the Xbox One which is such a different designed machine and so underpowered in comparison.

 

[Jadsey]

Good to watch an unbiased technical breakdown of the problems.

He use the words 'bland' & 'boring' a lot.

 

[cormack12]

Doesn't matter. Both are from a cutscene. And the Halo one looks like it has a fake beard tagged on. Even in a cut-scene. Yeah that is pretty bad.

I don't deny that. I'm not saying Halo looks good, believe me. I just don't like when disingenuous examples/comparisons are used. Cut scenes are probably the worst example to use as they can just be rendered offline anyway. I'd need to see that exact scene in a youtube clip of Joel, because the Halo one is being rendered in-engine I believe. It's the difference between those cut scenes with Rost and Aloy at high fidelity and comparing them to the interludes on the mountain where Aloy tried to save Rost. One is in engine and one is rendered (to maintain 4K and to get over the barriers of trying to load multiple locales into memory for cut aways). GoT probably uses the most in-engine but even then there were some scenes where I recall Jins outfit being default. There's a difference in all these, and fidelity will drop in real time rendering compared to pre-rendered cut scenes.

 

[phil_t98]

Anybody who says this cant be fixed is wrong, will it be fixed in time is the real question

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I honestly think the delay is going to last a lot longer than people are thinking and could go into November 21 or even 2022.

They were considering releasing it in chunks.

Meaning parts of the game are near finished. This has March 2021 written all over it.

 

[nowhat]

Meaning parts of the game are near finished.

Why didn't they show those parts?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Why didn't they show those parts?

They did.

 

[nowhat]

They did.

If that indeed is the case...

 

[ik3]

They did.

So they have five tiny skirmishes finished, and an elevator ride near Popup-Smoke Mountain?

 

[JonnyMP3]

So they have five tiny skirmishes finished, and an elevator ride near Popup-Smoke Mountain?

Jesus! Wtf? Did some one Deepfake Craig on Alexa?

 

[ik3]

Jesus! Wtf? Did some one Deepfake Craig on Alexa?

 

[JonnyMP3]

Got Shawn Michael's eye lol

 

[sircaw]

I am sorry but this guy is the real deal. Maybe he does not have sponsorships to protect, maybe he does not get invites to big swanky corporate openings,

whatever the case is, digital foundry, up your fucking game your clowns.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Hyperbole. 4k textures and Ray tracing. Give it to me.

 

[nowhat]

Hyperbole. 4k textures and Ray tracing. Give it to me.

I'm sure Craig will look so much superior in all his 4K glory.

 

[danielJackson]

I heard him saying that things were to one sided so he dropped that in. Whether or not he was making it up I'm not sure.

What I do know was that he did a terrible job communicating the information in the 1st place. I literally thought multiplats would be broken on the PS5 based off what he initially said.

I think it is more crazy that so many are willing to believe some random dudes so blindly.

Like if I would claim that ferrari with 1028HP struggles to speed up to 100km/h while Bugatti with 1200HP goes easily 300km/h and people would believe it without doubt. = Madness

Common sense should tell that 2 systems with almost identical specs gpu/cpu wise just cant be "1080p wont work vs 4k is flawless"

Same with this halo, common sense should tell how bad it looked and no 4k/60fps or angle of the sun explains it

 

[DaleinCalgary]

343 has 1 year to put on their big boy pants and fix this.

 

[nowhat]

343 has 1 year to put on their big boy pants and fix this.

Some would argue they've had five years to do so.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Some would argue they've had five years to do so.

Yea that's true . And we found out yesterday that their in engine trialer of e3 2019 was completely fake and outsourced

 

[nowhat]

Yea that's true . And we found out yesterday that their in engine trialer of e3 2019 was completely fake and outsourced

Source? Not that I doubt you (it is quite evident the trailer was 100% bullshots), just out of curiosity.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Source? Not that I doubt you (it is quite evident the trailer was 100% bullshots), just out of curiosity.

Brad sams article on thruott published yesterday . U can look it up if u didnt find let me know to get it for u

 

[MasterCornholio]

I think it is more crazy that so many are willing to believe some random dudes so blindly.

Like if I would claim that ferrari with 1028HP struggles to speed up to 100km/h while Bugatti with 1200HP goes easily 300km/h and people would believe it without doubt. = Madness

Common sense should tell that 2 systems with almost identical specs gpu/cpu wise just cant be "1080p wont work vs 4k is flawless"

Same with this halo, common sense should tell how bad it looked and no 4k/60fps or angle of the sun explains it

I already experienced a console with broken multiplats before so I was afraid the same happen again. This insider gave us some legit information in the past so I thought he was correct about this as well. But then he admitted to fueling the console wars which changed my opinion of them.

 

[nowhat]

Brad sams article on thruott published yesterday . U can look it up if u didnt find let me know to get it for u

Found it, cheers.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Some would argue they've had five years to do so.

what ya do.

Maybe keep this as the Xbox one version and put their top 1000 people on starting a 2nd series X version.

2 versions == diversity

Maybe even come up with a 3rd version that doesn't specifically identify as a Xbox one or Series X version.

 

[martino]

I'm sure Craig will look so much superior in all his 4K glory.

Imo DA is part of the problem here.

 

[NXGamer]

NXGamer I'm a bit confused. In the beginning of the video you say that the lighting is "not it", referring to what's wrong with halo infinite. About 20 minutes into the video you discuss the flat lighting to an almost excessive degree. For like...between 5-10minutes straight. I get that you say it's "tech debt" but I come away from the video feeling like the lighting is, in fact, a huge part of the problem.

A lot of people will compare this to what Digital Foundry has said, and although you expand upon this greatly in other areas, I don't feel like people here will acknowledge that what DF has said is correct, although admittedly they don't go nearly as deep as you. Overall I think it's a great video and I hope 343 sees this and if they haven't already assessed these same things, that they take it to heart.

Yes, this is correct as in the issues are much more than the "catch-all" lighting. The first part is stating that all the issues can/could stem from the tech debt/limitation put on the development and or engine. This means you cut corners that a 33ms/30FPS game on this hardware can do much better than 16/60. It was to describe the cause and then cover the areas of said issues which includes but is not limited to the lighting and materials.

I hope that makes it clearer now?

Thanks for the detailed response.

 

[JackNightblade]

exellent analysis honestly. i just hope hes wrong about dropping x1 from the game. Or at least do what he said and drop the 60fps from the x1 version.

Infinite will be fine on SX of they just get RT in, add better effects, and upgrade the textures.

 

[M1chl]

But yea he then he also says about its not just the light... and the tone of his voice there maybe its just me but i sensed a small amount of shots fired

I remeber how per object motion blur was the shit....back with GeoW3 on X360.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Halo is an easy target for Sony fans. Personally, I have a feeling with a year, they will have a resolution mode (4k/60) and a visual quality mode (2K/60)

 

[RoboFu]

I dont even need to watch the vid. The majopr problem Halo I has is its all very static and dull. there is little to no background animations and the enviroments are very sparse. Just compare it to GOW 5 and its like night and day.

 

[JackNightblade]

They were considering releasing it in chunks.

Meaning parts of the game are near finished. This has March 2021 written all over it.

they were 100% still planning on releasing in November during the showcase. It was the backlash that caused them to delay. That tells me the game is pretty much done. They are taking this time to make touchups

 

[Redlancet]

Halo is an easy target for Sony fans. L

You mean anyone with eyes, dont you?

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

How Phil stated he was confident in their show after seeing Sonys and that he thought this game looked good is beyond me

 

[JackNightblade]

Halo is an easy target for Sony fans. Personally, I have a feeling with a year, they will have a resolution mode (4k/60) and a visual quality mode (2K/60)

i honestly dont get why 2k isnt the standard. i can honestly say that i dont notice much of a difference between it and 4k.

why not just run it in 2k and just use direct ML to upscale

 

[mejin]

Halo is an easy target for Sony fans. Personally, I have a feeling with a year, they will have a resolution mode (4k/60) and a visual quality mode (2K/60)

The game being postponed was not for such a stupid reason. Halo Infinite being far below expectations was practically a general consensus.

Edit. I think a year is not enough, but it is too soon to "concern" again. Let the people work and I hope you are right about options.

 

[ResilientBanana]

You mean anyone with eyes, dont you?

Oh no, I don't think it looked all that good. That being said a whole year to work on it is pretty significant on top of the fact they they have a significant amount of people working on it all at once.

 

[CrysisFreak]

I always said this gen materials materials materials.
BF1 looked so much better than BF4 because it went with so much better materials. PBR is everything.
The new Modern Warfare is also so much better than previous CODs cuz they finally learnt that they need those PBR materials or else they do not need apply.

 

[nowhat]

They are taking this time to make touchups

 

[NXGamer]

Anyone saying that the Xbox One is "holding back Halo Infinite" instantly shows that they don't know what they're talking about.

Halo Infinite is an Xbox One game. The Series X plays Xbox One games thanks to having backwards compatibility. Therefor Halo Infinite plays on the Series X, but is not a Series X game.

The Xbox One is holding back Halo Infinite on the Series X in the same way that it's holding back Cyberpunk 2077 on the Series X - it's not. It's a current generation game that will work by default on the Series X, and will then get a Series X patch to add Series X features.

NXGamer acknowledges that it is an Xbox One game........but then says that's what's holding back the Series X version of the game. There is no series x version of the game! There is a Xbox One version, that's it.

I am confused with your statement, are you saying what we saw was an XboxOne game running in BC mode on the PC?

If so, and why I am asking, is this was THE SERIES X version, designed to use the power of the console with 4K/60 which the Xboxone Could never run. The delay is that it really is not, and thus, negatively affects the Series X and Xbox brand if they launch it, IMOP. My video discusses this in more detail and examples.

NXGamer seems to be implying as much.XB1X's significant gpu overhead can take up a lot of the slack. There are plenty of games that are 30fps on base XB1/PS4 that are 60fps on XB1X/Pro. 343 would have to reallocate cpu's resources to the gpu. I don't know how flexible the slip space engine is, but i'm sure 343 can do it.

Perhaps someone who's more technical can answer this?

The point I was making is that the CPU will be given more headroom but the GPU can be used more (On the 1X) with a 60fps target. They could get slightly more consistent performance on the CPU side for 1 and X and loads of free cycles on the Series X. This would mean hardware focused configs would be:-

- X1 1080/30 Dynamic resolution but x2 the Visual quality/Lod/Post Processin etc ( potential of ~30% more CPU budget for the X1X due to double the time on X1)
- X1X 4K/60 Dynamic resolution X1 version( More CPU driven elements such as better AI, animation or physics)
- SX 4K/60 Best version with even further LoD's, more particles, more light sources based on core development improvements to engine over coming months.

 

[Njocky]

Very good analysis. I had no idea that Infinite was targeting 60 fps on Xbox One S. I guess that was a laudable goal to have at the time when the game was initially supposed to be released, but in a cross gen title they can definitely afford to gimp the one S version. It doesn't matter that Halo 5 was 60 fps on Xbox One. If people want to play Infinite at 60 fps, they should get a Series X. We have next gen exclusives that only target 30 fps so I really don't see what the big deal is.

Also, difficult to watch this and come away confident about 343 as a studio. How much freedom do they have to set their own technical goals? I don't imagine them locking themselves into this scalability nightmare all on their own. Did Booty and Phil request 60 fps on the One S for Infinite? Did they unilaterally decide to make it a next gen launch title with complete disregard for how it would look on the Series X given all the engine compromises already made on current gen?

I find it difficult to believe that 343 did not anticipate or realise that their Series X version was looking underwhelming even in comparison to Halo 5 in certain areas. They are the ones saying every chance they get that "the Series X offers X times the power per pixel over the previous Xbox" (can't remember the number but it's very high). I can't imagine that they think that the Infinite demo looks or plays the part. And the only explanation I can think of for them seeming not to care, is that on this title, they are serving management goals and not just their own technical/sensible design goals. To be continued but it doesn't look good with regards to the management model at 343 and maybe XGS as a whole.

 

[NXGamer]

NXGamer seems to be implying as much.XB1X's significant gpu overhead can take up a lot of the slack. There are plenty of games that are 30fps on base XB1/PS4 that are 60fps on XB1X/Pro. 343 would have to reallocate cpu's resources to the gpu. I don't know how flexible the slip space engine is, but i'm sure 343 can do it.

Perhaps someone who's more technical can answer this?

I'm not sure of his background, but it's safe to say he's making the same assumptions as everyone else, so his comments are just as valid as everyone else.
However, I do think he's off the mark in a few places. For example, technical debt - I'm not necessarily sure we're seeing the effects of that here. Halo 5 made conscious decisions about what features to use and not use - which he describes accurately. Those decisions were made to prioritise the frame rate above all else. However, Halo Infinite has made similar decisions to achieve it's frame-rate. That's not technical debt, that's just frame budgets and engineering. Technical debt occurs when you're blocked or restricted via technical decisions made previously that now, either in hindsight or due to changing circumstances, were effectively the wrong decisions to make. You're paying for the sins of what's come before you, so to speak.
To get more specific, you accumulate technical debt every time you put off fixing or improving something. Every time a coder has to introduce a hack or workaround, or an artist has to make a series of compromises, you're technical debt increases. As far as I can tell, Infinite isn't hampered by technical debt - they're not paying for decisions Halo 5 made. Rather, they just made the same artistic and engineering decisions (60FPS on all platforms, open world, dynamic time of time, base Xbox One as target) and we're just seeing the result of that. They were quite capable of making different decisions, they elected not to. That's not technical debt.
Now, the cynic in me says a few YouTubers have used this phrase because it was dropped in those negative 343i GlassDoor reviews, and it sounds like you know what you're talking about, so they go in on it.
However, his comments on image based lighting is generally pretty accurate. So, take from the video what you will.

I appreciate the conversation, this is great.

The area it looks like you are confusing is that tech debt, is tech debt, the reasons it came about are irrelevant. If I decide to hard code my engine Tick rate to 33ms or based on CPU cycle timing and this give me and my team a large hurdle later on to make it 16ms now due to better hardware. If this was done because:-
- Physics engine works best at that update rate due to the plugin we use
- The animation team have a bunch of Keyframes that break if run higher.
- I have no idea where I change it as the guy/girl that wrote it left years ago and we never had any KT or documents
- It's Friday man, I am late for a party

No matter the reason I chose this path, that is tech debt. The flip side is what 343 have *possibly done here in setting the games tick rate to 16ms across the board and they need to run on X1 hardware. As such they stripped out core elements to achieve that, aggressive LoD, Frustum range, Texture Pipeline, Poly budgets on models, Post Processing options etc etc. No matter the reason THIS IS tech debt and I explained that perfectly in the video as if you created a scale of options within your engine to run the game at 30/60/120/ unlocked then this is simple to do.

Likewise, if you added options in for x factor of light sources,
POMB,
Higher Composites,
deformable geometry etc
Then you can turn these on and off in the engine depending on your hardware target. IF you hard-codedTM this into your source or made this non Editable within the Editor/debug views then you have created an issue in the future, which right now is to run on much more powerful hardware and boosting these effects to max to show off the new hardware.

The Demo did not do that, and as I covered it looks like it took some bits out of Halo 5 to achieve other areas of focus, which still appears to be X1 target. If not we would have seen a much more impressive showing in July as the "scale" put into the engine would enable this, we did not and that is odd.
Bringing this back to your statement which is that tech debt
"Technical debt occurs when you're blocked or restricted via technical decisions made previously that now, either in hindsight or due to changing circumstances, were effectively the wrong decisions to make"

Does that sound familiar to the problem I just described, as all you have said is (forgive me if I read it wrong) the quality is low due to target X1 6 60fps , but without any tech dept just ramp on Graphics and quality to match the In-engine demo as their is no inherent limit here?

 

[JackNightblade]

The game being postponed was not for such a stupid reason. Halo Infinite being far below expectations was practically a general consensus.

Edit. I think a year is not enough, but it is too soon to "concern" again. Let the people work and I hope you are right about options.

how do you come to the conclusion that a year is not enough? you know literally nothing about the game other than that the visuals were subpar.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Gave it a listen last night. Good work NXGamer

My question is, what if it is only delayed until February? You speak on a 12/14 month delay.

 

[M1chl]

Then why doesn't it look even like that?

Exactly, looks like a launch XB1 OG game. Halo 5 was fine.

 

[MrFunSocks]

I am confused with your statement, are you saying what we saw was an XboxOne game running in BC mode on the PC?

If so, and why I am asking, is this was THE SERIES X version, designed to use the power of the console with 4K/60 which the Xboxone Could never run. The delay is that it really is not, and thus, negatively affects the Series X and Xbox brand if they launch it, IMOP. My video discusses this in more detail and examples.



The point I was making is that the CPU will be given more headroom but the GPU can be used more (On the 1X) with a 60fps target. They could get slightly more consistent performance on the CPU side for 1 and X and loads of free cycles on the Series X. This would mean hardware focused configs would be:-

- X1 1080/30 Dynamic resolution but x2 the Visual quality/Lod/Post Processin etc ( potential of ~30% more CPU budget for the X1X due to double the time on X1)
- X1X 4K/60 Dynamic resolution X1 version( More CPU driven elements such as better AI, animation or physics)
- SX 4K/60 Best version with even further LoD's, more particles, more light sources based on core development improvements to engine over coming months.

If you haven’t realised by now somehow, Microsoft make games that are essentially code once and it works on Xbox and pc.

Halo Infinite is one of those games. Made for Xbox One and PC. Like Halo 5 it is 60fps with a dynamic resolution. On Series X and PC that dynamic resolution has a higher cap, at 4K, like other Microsoft games do already.

What we saw is the Xbox One game but running on a PC, because it is an Xbox one game. There is no Series X version of the game. You will not be able to buy a series X version of the game. You buy a Xbox One version of the game and will download a patch for Series X, just like you do for Xbox One X optimised games.

So you saying they should drop the Xbox one version, or change the Xbox one version to run at 30fps - which btw would be bad, why would you want it to be 30fps instead of 60fps? - means changing the game as it is, and then doing more work on the Series X patch to then make it run at not only a higher resolution but also a higher frame rate - because again, there is no series x version of the game.

This really isn’t difficult. There is no Series X version of Infinite. There is an Xbox one version and a PC version that comes virtually “by default” with how they make their games. They will then release a Series X patch to add Series X enhancements, like Ray Tracing as they have already said.

 

[MrFunSocks]

What people are saying is that Halo Infinite should've been designed for the Xbox Series X

No they’re not. They’re saying that it was designed for Series X and has been held back by then also having to be ported down to the One.

 

[NXGamer]

Gave it a listen last night. Good work NXGamer

My question is, what if it is only delayed until February? You speak on a 12/14 month delay.

If a ~6 month window then I think they focus on ramping on Post Processing, Effects and Asset Quality. They simply need to use the resource of the Series X to do more than just Res and Fps. 6 Months, with clear focus and milestones, could make a decent improvement but all comes down to focus and targets.

 

[NXGamer]

If you haven’t realised by now somehow, Microsoft make games that are essentially code once and it works on Xbox and pc.

Halo Infinite is one of those games. Made for Xbox One and PC. Like Halo 5 it is 60fps with a dynamic resolution. On Series X and PC that dynamic resolution has a higher cap, at 4K, like other Microsoft games do already.

What we saw is the Xbox One game but running on a PC, because it is an Xbox one game. There is no Series X version of the game. You will not be able to buy a series X version of the game. You buy a Xbox One version of the game and will download a patch for Series X, just like you do for Xbox One X optimised games.

So you saying they should drop the Xbox one version, or change the Xbox one version to run at 30fps - which btw would be bad, why would you want it to be 30fps instead of 60fps? - means changing the game as it is, and then doing more work on the Series X patch to then make it run at not only a higher resolution but also a higher frame rate - because again, there is no series x version of the game.

This really isn’t difficult. There is no Series X version of Infinite. There is an Xbox one version and a PC version that comes virtually “by default” with how they make their games. They will then release a Series X patch to add Series X enhancements, like Ray Tracing as they have already said.

Yeah, you are running yourself in circles, If there is no Series X version (which I agree, my entire video was based on this logic) then why not show it on XboxOne X and why state this is designed from the "ground up" for Series X.

And then state a Ray Tracing patch, so by your process of thought, would that then constitute a Series X version or can this just "code and run" on all hardware?

#Itjustworks

 

[mejin]

how do you come to the conclusion that a year is not enough? you know literally nothing about the game other than that the visuals were subpar.

If in 5 years they only reached what I saw, they will need more time imho.

 

[Hinedorf]

Based on this presentation the 2 main questions for 343 are......do they have talented people? And if so how did said talented people produce that demo for public eyes.