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NYT: How Trump Came to Enforce a Practice of Separating Migrant Families (Because of Stephen Miller)

natjjohn

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You are 100% correct. Few people actually support this on either side.
So therefore it would be VERY easy for the Senate to legislate a fix very quickly and solve it once and for all.

Sadly, on both sides, I think the politicians are more interested in using he current situation as a weapon to bash the other side than to actually fix it.
That is the sad story. Both sides basically want the situation to continue since they feel they can gain some political benefit out of it.

Take the both sides language out.

Trump and his admin is the only reason this is happening. Period. There is no both sides.
 

Max Legroom

Banned
Jun 16, 2018
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You are 100% correct. Few people actually support this on either side.
So therefore it would be VERY easy for the Senate to legislate a fix very quickly and solve it once and for all.

Sadly, on both sides, I think the politicians are more interested in using he current situation as a weapon to bash the other side than to actually fix it.
That is the sad story. Both sides basically want the situation to continue since they feel they can gain some political benefit out of it.

The actual fact is that the Trump administration created this situation unilaterally. They have said publicly that they think this will help accomplish their goals. The other actual fact is that the Democrats proposed a bill to end it but the Republicans won’t support it because they want to use it as leverage to wring other concessions.

You may feel that both sides want it to continue but facts don’t care about your feelings.
 
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Cato

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Oct 27, 2017
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Take the both sides language out.

Trump and his admin is the only reason this is happening. Period. There is no both sides.

I think there are three sides:
Trump and the white house.
Republicans in congress and senate
Democrats in congress and senate

With both sides I mean Democrats and Republicans in senate and congress.
 
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camelCase

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Feb 8, 2018
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Take the both sides language out.

Trump and his admin is the only reason this is happening. Period. There is no both sides.

He didn't even say that. He said both sides use it to push an agenda. The "other-side" was, and is, jumping for joy that they could exploit the plight of detained children.
 

natjjohn

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Oct 15, 2007
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I think there are three sides:
Trump and the white house.
Republicans in congress and senate
Democrats in congress and senate

With both sides I mean Democrats and Republicans in senate and congress.


As was posted, your claim doesn’t appear to be fact based. Dems have crafted legislation to stop it, but no republicans will back it to this point in time. My opinion is the reason they haven’t is they will follow trumps lead to barter children for political concessions.


He didn't even say that. He said both sides use it to push an agenda. The "other-side" was, and is, jumping for joy that they could exploit the plight of detained children.

Again, facts don’t back this. This only exists because of trump and his admin. Legislation has been crafted to explicitly prohibit trump from continuing this, but no republican support. Again, my opinion is they willow follow trumps lead to barter children for political concessions.
 

Cato

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The actual fact is that the Trump administration created this situation unilaterally. They have said publicly that they think this will help accomplish their goals. The other actual fact is that the Democrats proposed a bill to end it but the Republicans won’t support it because they want to use it as leverage to wring other concessions.

You may feel that both sides want it to continue but facts don’t care about your feelings.

I don't think my post disputed the fact that Trump did cause this.
We could wait until Trump decides to undo this. But that might take time or even never happen.

My comment is rather about the Democrats and Republicans in the Senate.
The Senate can very quickly legislate and reverse Trumps action here. Not only that, by legislating they could even
prevent Trump from ever doing it again. That would be a desireable outcome, yes?

Now, sadly, Democrats and Replublicans do not show great effort in actually fixing this once and for all.
Last time it was Republicans that refused to work with the Democrats proposal.
This time it is Democrats that refuse to work with a Republican proposal.


While this political posturing goes on, the children remain where they are. Sad.
 
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Max Legroom

Banned
Jun 16, 2018
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I don't think my post disputed the fact that Trump did cause this.
We could wait until Trump decides to undo this. But that might take time or even never happen.

My comment is rather about the Democrats and Republicans in the Senate.
The Senate can very quickly legislate and reverse Trumps action here. Not only that, by legislating they could even
prevent Trump from ever doing it again. That would be a desireable outcome, yes?

Now, sadly, Democrats and Replublicans do not show great effort in actually fixing this once and for all.
Last time it was Republicans that refused to work with the Democrats proposal.
This time it is Democrats that refuse to work with a Republican proposal.


While this political posturing goes on, the children remain where they are. Sad.

It’s rarely desirable to reward hostage-takers. They’ll take more hostages next time.
 

Cato

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
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It’s rarely desirable to reward hostage-takers. They’ll take more hostages next time.

If I read this post right it kind of illustrates my point.

With "hostage takers" I take you mean either the Trump administration or the Republicans in the Senate.
Trump would work better here since he caused it but since I am talking about the Dems/Reps in the Senate I assume you mean the Republican Senators with "hostage takers".

"They will take more hostages next time" I read as if we shouldn't do it or next time will be worse, i.e. which also can be framed as if we don't do it we will be rewarded in the future.

Basically, this could be read to mean :
"If we don't co-operate with them now, there will be rewards to reap in the future."

Which is very similar to my entire point.
This really reads very partisan and that it is better not to find a solution right now because it will benefit us later?

I.e. putting the principles of not working with the "enemy" before the interests of the affected children.

Meanwhile the children remain where they are.
 
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Max Legroom

Banned
Jun 16, 2018
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If I read this post right it kind of illustrates my point.

With "hostage takers" I take you mean either the Trump administration or the Republicans in the Senate.
Trump would work better here since he caused it but since I am talking about the Dems/Reps in the Senate I assume you mean the Republican Senators with "hostage takers".

"They will take more hostages next time" I read as if we shouldn't do it or next time will be worse, i.e. which also can be framed as if we don't do it we will be rewarded in the future.

Basically, this could be read to mean :
"If we don't co-operate with them now, there will be rewards to reap in the future."

Which is very similar to my entire point.
This really reads very partisan and that it is better not to find a solution right now because it will benefit us later?

I.e. putting the principles of not working with the "enemy" before the interests of the affected children.

Meanwhile the children remain where they are.

The hostage takers are both Trump and the Republicans. They want to use this as leverage. They tried to do it with DACA and the Dems largely caved, but then they wanted even more. Your position appears to be that the Democrats should give the Republicans anything and everything they want and if they don’t then they don’t care about the families. That logic would justify literally any Republican demand. That isn’t working with the “enemy,” that’s enabling a bad faith abuser.

I would also note there is no Republican proposal.
 
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pramod

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Oct 24, 2017
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This is a clusterfuck in the making if not already all self-inflicted by this administration. It's not moral, unethical and not American do take kids away and put them in cages, let them eat off the floor, etc. This did not need to happen.

The statue of liberty is probably hiding its face right now as we are no longer the beacon of light for rest of the world.

Yes America is such an evil hellhole. That's why millions of people keep trying to come here knowing of the possible consequences.
 

rokkerkory

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Sep 2, 2013
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Yes America is such an evil hellhole. That's why millions of people keep trying to come here knowing of the possible consequences.

How do u know they know the consequences? The folks in the detention center interviewed had no idea that they would be separated.
 

gohepcat

Banned
Jul 12, 2004
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Yes America is such an evil hellhole. That's why millions of people keep trying to come here knowing of the possible consequences.

This is the most cowardice defense of this I can think of. Grow a backbone and stand up against this.
 

Marlenus

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Jul 29, 2013
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So your border agency is also separating babies and toddlers from parents at the border now. Parents who are going to entry points to seek asylum.

Shithole does not cover it.
 

oagboghi2

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What do you think the cost of building and maintaining a 2,000 mile wall will be in a country that can barely keep its roads and other infrastructure together? It's not like you're going to save any costs in terms of staff monitoring the border. Plenty of people will still make their way through whatever wall may get built. It's untenable.
Probably cheaper than opening our borders like an open flesh wound.

And since when do liberals care about costs?

How do u know they know the consequences? The folks in the detention center interviewed had no idea that they would be separated.
Oh this is rich
This is the most cowardice defense of this I can think of. Grow a backbone and stand up against this.
Stop trying to break our immigration laws
 
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Ragnaroz

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Apr 28, 2013
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Your child won’t be sent to a tent city or thrown in a former Walmart where they can’t be touched or comforted in any way. Gaurantee you that.

Some of these families are seeking asylum from dangerous situations so equating them with criminals is disingenuous IMO.

Also, you won’t be permanently separated from your kids for a trespassing charge. You’d be unlikely to spend any time in jail.
That's the part I still don't get, why can't they touch the children?
 

voidenberg

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Jan 15, 2018
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Is Trump kidnapping these families just to separate them? Or are these people willingly trying to illegaly cross the boarder, getting caught and facing the consequences?
I mean, it's sad and parents shouldn't be separated from their children. The easy solution is just not cross the border illegaly.
 

Vangelis

Banned
Jun 10, 2018
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Concentration camps in the US. Never thought I'd see the day, tbqh.

These aren't Concentration Camps. These are holding shelters for criminals. CRIMINALS. They're lucky they get shelter. They get Shelter, free food, showers, etc where as they should be getting turned at the border.
 

TheWatcher

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
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Communists always using children to push an agenda. They should be separated and detained. Further, I would have drones patrol the Mexico US border and initiate strafing runs on caravans of 'refugees'. This is getting out of control.
 

DKehoe

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Jun 19, 2007
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Communists always using children to push an agenda. They should be separated and detained. Further, I would have drones patrol the Mexico US border and initiate strafing runs on caravans of 'refugees'. This is getting out of control.

What communists are you talking about?
 

natjjohn

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Oct 15, 2007
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What about articles like this that show this stuff has been going on way before Trump's presidency? Where was the outrage than?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.49a252a497ec

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc7912d3beca


As has been pointed out numerous times, your examples are different and not the same. We are talking about families showing up and being needlessly separated.

What’s going on, is a trump presidency exclusive.

Do you support it?
 

Manus

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Jan 12, 2009
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As has been pointed out numerous times, your examples are different and not the same. We are talking about families showing up and being needlessly separated.

What’s going on, is a trump presidency exclusive.

Do you support it?

It's not different and yes I do support it. People that break our laws should be punished simple as that.
 

DasPenguin

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It's not different and yes I do support it. People that break our laws should be punished simple as that.

If you get rid of all illegal immigrants, who will pick up the slack for the jobs they are currently doing? Something tells me that those toothless uneducated rednecks don’t come running down the hill any time soon to wash dishes or work on farms, for example.

America really has turned into a farce. Arguing with allies, bombing countries for no reason (though that has been going on for decades now), making friends with Putin and other dictators, complaining about immigration and spending massive amounts of money on the military, yet you can’t find money to educate poor people or for healthcare. And the country has a two party system that is corrupt to the core.

Land of the free and the greatest country in the world. Irony at its highest form.
 
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Reserrrved

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May 30, 2018
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I wish we knew some hard numbers for context. I want to know what the percentage of kids that get detained came with their parents.
 

voidenberg

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Jan 15, 2018
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If you get rid of all illegal immigrants, who will pick up the slack for the jobs they are currently doing? Something tells me that those toothless uneducated rednecks don’t come running down the hill any time soon to wash dishes or work on farms, for example.

America really has turned into a farce. Arguing with allies, bombing countries for no reason (though that has been going on for decades now), making friends with Putin and other dictators, complaining about immigration and spending massive amounts of money on the military, yet you can’t find money to educate poor people or for healthcare. And the country has a two party system that is corrupt to the core.

Land of the free and the greatest country in the world. Irony at its highest form.

 

rokkerkory

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Sep 2, 2013
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These families are literally WALKING hundreds if not thousands of miles to seek safety. What makes you think separating families will deter that?
 

TheWatcher

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
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If you get rid of all illegal immigrants, who will pick up the slack for the jobs they are currently doing? Something tells me that those toothless uneducated rednecks don’t come running down the hill any time soon to wash dishes or work on farms, for example.

America really has turned into a farce. Arguing with allies, bombing countries for no reason (though that has been going on for decades now), making friends with Putin and other dictators, complaining about immigration and spending massive amounts of money on the military, yet you can’t find money to educate poor people or for healthcare. And the country has a two party system that is corrupt to the core.

Land of the free and the greatest country in the world. Irony at its highest form.


"Toothless, uneducated rednecks". Nice! These types of words will definitely mend the racial barriers in America.
 

natjjohn

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It's not different and yes I do support it. People that break our laws should be punished simple as that.


How is it the same?

As has been shared, families have tried the legal way, but entries have been blocked preventing asylum seekers from going through the process. When barred to the point of no food/water, they attempt to cross and then get picked up.

It seems Trump attempted to use children as ransom, but it appears it has failed thankfully. Policy seems to be coming to an end.
 

oagboghi2

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How is it the same?

As has been shared, families have tried the legal way, but entries have been blocked preventing asylum seekers from going through the process. When barred to the point of no food/water, they attempt to cross and then get picked up.

It seems Trump attempted to use children as ransom, but it appears it has failed thankfully. Policy seems to be coming to an end.
You mean they attempt to break the law. No one is guaranteed asylum.
 

natjjohn

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You mean they attempt to break the law. No one is guaranteed asylum.

They can’t attempt to apply for asylum. If they applied, kept the family together during the process, even if the asylum request was denied this would be a non-story as that is typical (not everybody gets it granted). Instead, they seemingly tried to use children as ransom.

Doesn’t matter now as Trump is doing a complete 180 on his own policy. No backbone thankfully when nobody but a small subsection of folks were buying the lies he was dealing.
 

oagboghi2

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They can’t attempt to apply for asylum. If they applied, kept the family together during the process, even if the asylum request was denied this would be a non-story as that is typical (not everybody gets it granted). Instead, they seemingly tried to use children as ransom.

Doesn’t matter now as Trump is doing a complete 180 on his own policy. No backbone thankfully when nobody but a small subsection of folks were buying the lies he was dealing.
Ransom for what? To convince them to not try to break our laws again.

As usaul, we were reward those who break our laws, and then act perplexed why caravans come to our borders.
 
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natjjohn

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Ransom for what? To convince them to not try to break our laws again.

As usaul, we were reward those who break our laws, and then act perplexed why caravans come to our borders.

Ransom for wall funding and other political points. Trump and admin outright has said as much before the 180 (congress needs to pass wall funding in response to the child separation policy).

Again, doesn’t matter as seemingly Trump has done a 180 and distanced himself from his own policy. I’m sure he’ll continue to lie and blame the Dems for his own policy to gaslight his ardent supporters.
 

oagboghi2

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Google it. Plenty of hits on why folks are fleeing. If the building is on fire, I am sure you'll run out of it.
There are no wars, and they aren't real refugee. They claim to be running from gang violence and poverty
Ransom for wall funding and other political points. Trump and admin outright has said as much before the 180 (congress needs to pass wall funding in response to the child separation policy).

Again, doesn’t matter as seemingly Trump has done a 180 and distanced himself from his own policy. I’m sure he’ll continue to lie and blame the Dems for his own policy to gaslight his ardent supporters.
"Ransom" for defending our own borders and upholding our own laws. Wow.

I'm sure Democrats will continue to cry about "the children" while doing nothing. It's what they do best.
 

ssolitare

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Trumps signage still enables indefinite detainment.

Trump signs an EO against his own policy.
 
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natjjohn

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There are no wars, and they aren't real refugee. They claim to be running from gang violence and poverty

"Ransom" for defending our own borders and upholding our own laws. Wow.

I'm sure Democrats will continue to cry about "the children" while doing nothing. It's what they do best.

You seem to be arguing against points that aren’t being made. Defending our borders and upholding our own laws, has nothing to do with securing wall funding (I thought Mexico was paying for that? Another of his many lies).

As has been pointed out, they had drafted simple legislation to make Trump’s policy illegal, but no republicans would sign on for it...

Again, doesn’t matter, Trump reversed on his own policy because again, only a small subsection supported the ransom tactics.

It’s odd he was able to stop his own policy when he said he couldn’t... another lie. Or that only congress could stop it, another lie.

Gaslighting to the extreme and it’s just sad people continue to eat it up as evidenced through this thread and others. When the same debunked points keep getting brought up again and again.
 

rokkerkory

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Sep 2, 2013
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There are no wars, and they aren't real refugee. They claim to be running from gang violence and poverty

"Ransom" for defending our own borders and upholding our own laws. Wow.

I'm sure Democrats will continue to cry about "the children" while doing nothing. It's what they do best.

So there has to be a war for there to be enough reason for you to flee? I am sure all those countries don't have drug cartels running everything, corrupt governments, etc. They are all 1st world countries too. :rolleyes: