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NYTimes: A Star Player Accused, and a Flawed Rape Investigation

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riotous

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What about the Steubenville rape case? The entire town ran the girl and her family out of town in support of the football players that raped her.

It's addressed in the post. Small town high school football is a lot like college football with the attention that is paid to the players by the entire community.

Go to a big city and the football players aren't getting away with murder outside of the school itself, at least not as often. But the big college players? Different story. Doesn't matter if your college is in the middle of a major metro, you are treated like royalty by the entire community.
 

andymcc

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It's addressed in the post. Small town high school football is a lot like college football with the attention that is paid to the players by the entire community.

Go to a big city and the football players aren't getting away with murder outside of the school itself, at least not as often. But the big college players? Different story. Doesn't matter if your college is in the middle of a major metro, you are treated like royalty by the entire community.

ok, this makes more sense.
 

devildog820

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In the south, but there's Maryville too.

Ohio isn't the south, it's part of the Midwest. Or did you mean Maryville was?

It happened in Nebraska, Los Angeles, and many other places. Including Miami. Pro and college. People that bring in money and fame are protected. Simple as that.

At least the police in Gainesville aren't accused of covering things up. They arrest football players for barking at police dogs.
 

cyclonekruse

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My thought: a school that has been found to violate the law by failing to investigate a crime like this should be fined an amount equal to ticket sales and bowl game earnings for the remainder of the athlete's career following the accusation. In addition to a base fine. Basically if the athlete earned you money, you should lose it.

That might give them an incentive to do their job.
 

mre

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There's also a weird Southern Exceptionalism complex going on here. The fact that thier college football teams dominate the rest of the country who deems them backwards is immensely satisfying and identity affirming.
Yes, because Lord knows athletes in the North or West aren't given special privileges and protections.

It's those Southern colleges like Penn State and Notre Dame that always cover up shit for the sake of their football programs.
 

andthebeatgoeson

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What is it with College athletes and rape?
Nothing. Except billions of dollars and nobody wants to take that on. Without the game and money, they wouldn't be treated as gods or protected. They may not even be there.

The question should be, 'what is it with famous kids and rape?'

Put a bunch of kids together and alcohol and they make stupid decisions. I don't even want my kids trying to get into professional ball. All these hurdles just for the luxury of being famous for a few years, then going broke and being ridiculed later. Look at recent pictures of Tracy Mcgrady our Steve Francis. People laugh at them. For what? So they can worry about having sees with a bunch of women who only want to have a baby by them? Them leave them after the money stops?

I have a hard time making these guys victims but the whole industry makes it easier.
 

kirblar

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My thought: a school that has been found to violate the law by failing to investigate a crime like this should be fined an amount equal to ticket sales and bowl game earnings for the remainder of the athlete's career following the accusation. In addition to a base fine. Basically if the athlete earned you money, you should lose it.

That might give them an incentive to do their job.
The schools shouldn't even be touching these cases. They need to be police issues from the very start.
 

andthebeatgoeson

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The schools shouldn't even be touching these cases. They need to be police issues from the very start.
It was and they fucked it up. Everyone in Tallahassee knows FSU runs that city.

There is probably no conspiracy. Nothing more than the police being too shook to do anything. Their eyes probably glazed over just like all the other fans.
 

Lonestar

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Yes, because Lord knows athletes in the North or West aren't given special privileges and protections.

It's those Southern colleges like Penn State and Notre Dame that always cover up shit for the sake of their football programs.

Watch out for that Scissor Lift, Lennay!
 

andycapps

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Yes, because Lord knows athletes in the North or West aren't given special privileges and protections.

It's those Southern colleges like Penn State and Notre Dame that always cover up shit for the sake of their football programs.

We know how much you love Notre Dame. But what about that school that Maurice Clarett was running back for? The University of Ohio I think.
 

cyclonekruse

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The schools shouldn't even be touching these cases. They need to be police issues from the very start.
They shouldn't do anything before notifying police but they need to take the accusation seriously and look into it. That's the law according to the article. It is simply unacceptable to do nothing.
 

Syph Medwes

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Mumei do you have an actual question or point of discussion? Or are you just looking for comments?

Assuming the latter, then yes, this is unfortunate. I understand they see the player as an investment in that he is going to bring the university a ton of money (or already has), but if there were a situation that would cause those people to take a step back, you would hope rape would be it. Obviously it wasn't.

Is there a statute of limitations on something like this? Did the player get lucky? At the very least the "investigators" involved should be reprimanded if not fully investigated. The fact that a video supposedly existed but was never sought to be acquired is pretty ridiculous. That and the lack of a DNA test which could have put the allegations to rest pretty quickly either way.
 

kirblar

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They shouldn't do anything before notifying police but they need to take the accusation seriously and look into it. That's the law according to the article. It is simply unacceptable to do nothing.
How is a school supposed to "look into it", and why would this be a good thing? Would you ask IBM to look into a sexual assault that occurred on their work site independent of the police? It was forwarded to the police, who immediately buried the case. That right there is the problem. A school disciplinary committee is not going to be equipped to handle these types of serious issues.
 

andthebeatgoeson

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How is a school supposed to "look into it", and why would this be a good thing? Would you ask IBM to look into a sexual assault that occurred on their work site independent of the police? It was forwarded to the police, who immediately buried the case. That right there is the problem. A school disciplinary committee is not going to be equipped to handle these types of serious issues.
It's federal law. When they learn about it, they have to investigate. These major universities have significant police forces, so they are equipped.

When FSU called to learn about the process (mentioned in one of the quotes in the OP), they knew. Did not report it nor did an investigation. A school is different from IBM. They have more responsibility. They may have minors on campus. They have living facilities. This is more than a business. And a lot of campuses take this serious because they want to attract good candidates. Obviously, it's not to FSU.


Here, let me repost from the OP:
If cases are reported, the university is obligated to investigate, regardless of what the police do. According to the federal Education Department’s civil rights office, “a school that knows, or reasonably should know” about sexual harassment, including rape, “must promptly investigate to determine what occurred and then take appropriate steps to resolve the situation.”

Universities must also inform the federal government of reported sexual assaults on their property or in the immediate vicinity.

[...]

A decade before the Winston case, the inspector general found that Florida State had violated its policy when the athletic department failed to inform the campus police of a rape accusation against one of its standout football players. Mr. Ruiz, the former prosecutor who handled the case for the state attorney’s office, recalled that the coach at the time, the revered Bobby Bowden, attempted to convince him that a crime had not occurred. A jury eventually acquitted the player.

“I learned quickly what football meant in the South,” said Mr. Ruiz, who grew up in New York State. “Clearly, it meant a lot. And with respect to this case I learned that keeping players on the field was a priority.”
Since they have living quarters, co-ed dorms (and in some places co-ed bathrooms), they have to, and should want to, keep all forms of violence away from the learning institution.

They should want to make sure they understand why rape happens and help prevent it. Who is best at preventing rape on campus but the actual university?
 

Hasphat'sAnts

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Yes, because Lord knows athletes in the North or West aren't given special privileges and protections.

It's those Southern colleges like Penn State and Notre Dame that always cover up shit for the sake of their football programs.

I clarified in a subsequent post in that I don't believe these things are exclusive to southern football factory schools. Someone was simply asking why the South loved its college football more than anyone else.

But feel free to call me a scalawag though.
 

v1oz

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The police bungled the investigation. It doesn't really matter if he is guilty or not. What really matters is that the relevant authorities should have done their jobs and fully investigated.

As for the University, I don't know what the law says over there, but this sounds like a police matter to me. You need special training to deal with rape cases.
 

kirblar

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It's federal law. When they learn about it, they have to investigate. These major universities have significant police forces, so they are equipped.

When FSU called to learn about the process (mentioned in one of the quotes in the OP), they knew. Did not report it nor did an investigation. A school is different from IBM. They have more responsibility. They may have minors on campus. They have living facilities. This is more than a business. And a lot of campuses take this serious because they want to attract good candidates. Obviously, it's not to FSU.


Here, let me repost from the OP:

Since they have living quarters, co-ed dorms (and in some places co-ed bathrooms), they have to, and should want to, keep all forms of violence away from the learning institution.

They should want to make sure they understand why rape happens and help prevent it. Who is best at preventing rape on campus but the actual university?
I understand the need for a university to keep track of these cases in order to provide support to victims, to keep statistics on the issues, to try and maintain a safe environment, and to hold hearings/take action in cases where criminal charges may not be warranted or able to be brought, but the situation still presents troubling issues to the future safety of individuals on campus. It may be that we're reading "investigation" differently- I see it as "School should get its own data/interviews and use that to buttress the results of the criminal probe", as they'll have their own rules (like alcohol consumption, etc.) they'll also be looking into.

We do definitely disagree on the "Who best?" part- my viewpoint is in line with the RAINN ones that came up a month or two ago - on the largest margins, prevention is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, and thus the most effective strategy for eliminating future incidents is bringing the full might and fury of the criminal justice system down when you can identify perpetrators to ensure that they don't have future opportunities to do it again. In this case, It's highly unlikely that this was "accidentally" brushed under a stack of paperwork somewhere. Power and influence have a way of making these things disappear without anyone even needing to lift a finger. Unfortunately, a solution to that problem has eluded us for as long as civilization has existed. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't still be trying to push back against it, especially in an area where widespread reform is badly needed.
 

Draxal

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Yes, because Lord knows athletes in the North or West aren't given special privileges and protections.

It's those Southern colleges like Penn State and Notre Dame that always cover up shit for the sake of their football programs.

Hey now, us northerners call it Pennsyltucky for a reason.
 

andthebeatgoeson

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I understand the need for a university to keep track of these cases in order to provide support to victims, to keep statistics on the issues, to try and maintain a safe environment, and to hold hearings/take action in cases where criminal charges may not be warranted or able to be brought, but the situation still presents troubling issues to the future safety of individuals on campus. It may be that we're reading "investigation" differently- I see it as "School should get its own data/interviews and use that to buttress the results of the criminal probe", as they'll have their own rules (like alcohol consumption, etc.) they'll also be looking into.

We do definitely disagree on the "Who best?" part- my viewpoint is in line with the RAINN ones that came up a month or two ago - on the largest margins, prevention is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, and thus the most effective strategy for eliminating future incidents is bringing the full might and fury of the criminal justice system down when you can identify perpetrators to ensure that they don't have future opportunities to do it again. In this case, It's highly unlikely that this was "accidentally" brushed under a stack of paperwork somewhere. Power and influence have a way of making these things disappear without anyone even needing to lift a finger. Unfortunately, a solution to that problem has eluded us for as long as civilization has existed. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't still be trying to push back against it, especially in an area where widespread reform is badly needed.
I think this case perfectly highlights how both the police and the university failed the victim. I agree that the police should be heading any criminal investigation. But the backup policy (ie the university) failed. They probably should not conduct an SVU investigation but they could do an investigation to see if any policy changes need to happen (ie any fraternity that allows and condones rape would be kicked out of the university). The lines between official and unofficial at an university are often blurred and the university should be right beside the police ready to intervene where they can.

We have to use any means necessary to enact change. Think of the university and police interacting in the same fashion as criminal and civil law interact. The burden of proof could be different. The reactions by both entities could be different.

Think about that noose case in Alabama.
http://articles.latimes.com/2014/fe...e-miss-suspects-noose-james-meredith-20140221
Criminal charges may not stick but the university is sending a strong message of their values by dealing with the students, banning the fraternity and asking for criminal charges. It's a powerful message. If only FSU could be so bold.
 

Mumei

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]It's federal law.[/B] When they learn about it, they have to investigate. These major universities have significant police forces, so they are equipped.

When FSU called to learn about the process (mentioned in one of the quotes in the OP), they knew. Did not report it nor did an investigation. A school is different from IBM. They have more responsibility. They may have minors on campus. They have living facilities. This is more than a business. And a lot of campuses take this serious because they want to attract good candidates. Obviously, it's not to FSU.

Yep! The OCR is quite clear about what standards schools are (supposed to be) held to under Title IX.

Know Your Rights: Title IX Prohibits Sexual Harassment and
Sexual Violence Where You Go to School

Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (“Title IX”), 20 U.S.C. §1681 et seq., is a Federal civil rights law that prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex in education programs and activities. All public and private elementary and secondary schools, school districts, colleges, and universities (hereinafter “schools”) receiving any Federal funds must comply with Title IX. Under Title IX, discrimination on the basis of sex can include sexual harassment or sexual violence, such as rape, sexual assault, sexual battery, and sexual coercion.

Below is additional information regarding the specific requirements of Title IX as they pertain to sexual harassment and sexual violence.

What are a school’s responsibilities to address sexual harassment and sexual violence?

  • A school has a responsibility to respond promptly and effectively. If a school knows or reasonably should know about sexual harassment or sexual violence that creates a hostile environment, the school must take immediate action to eliminate the sexual harassment or sexual violence, prevent its recurrence, and address its effects.
  • Even if a student or his or her parent does not want to file a complaint or does not request that the school take any action on the student’s behalf, if a school knows or reasonably should know about possible sexual harassment or sexual violence, it must promptly investigate to determine what occurred and then take appropriate steps to resolve the situation.
  • A criminal investigation into allegations of sexual harassment or sexual violence does not relieve the school of its duty under Title IX to resolve complaints promptly and equitably.

What procedures must a school have in place to prevent sexual harassment and sexual violence and resolve complaints?

  • Every School Must Have And Distribute A Policy Against Sex Discrimination
    • Title IX requires that each school publish a policy that it does not discriminate on the basis of sex in its education programs and activities. This notice must be widely distributed and available on an on-going basis.
    • The policy must state that inquiries concerning Title IX may be referred to the school’s Title IX coordinator or to OCR.
  • Every School Must Have A Title IX Coordinator
    • Every school must designate at least one employee who is responsible for coordinating the school’s compliance with Title IX.
    • This person is sometimes referred to as the Title IX coordinator. Schools must notify all students and employees of the name or title and contact information of the Title IX coordinator.
    • The coordinator’s responsibilities include overseeing all complaints of sex discrimination and identifying and addressing any patterns or systemic problems that arise during the review of such complaints.
    Every School Must Have And Make Known Procedures For Students To File Complaints Of Sex Discrimination.
    • Title IX requires schools to adopt and publish grievance procedures for students to file complaints of sex discrimination, including complaints of sexual harassment or sexual violence. Schools can use general disciplinary procedures to address complaints of sex discrimination. But all procedures must provide for prompt and equitable resolution of sex discrimination complaints.
    • Every complainant has the right to present his or her case. This includes the right to adequate, reliable, and impartial investigation of complaints, the right to have an equal opportunity to present witnesses and other evidence, and the right to the same appeal processes, for both parties.
    • Every complainant has the right to be notified of the time frame within which: (a) the school will conduct a full investigation of the complaint; (b) the parties will be notified of the outcome of the complaint; and (c) the parties may file an appeal, if applicable.
    • Every complainant has the right for the complaint to be decided using a preponderance of the evidence standard (i.e., it is more likely than not that sexual harassment or violence occurred).
    • Every complainant has the right to be notified, in writing, of the outcome of the complaint. Even though federal privacy laws limit disclosure of certain information in disciplinary proceedings:
      • Schools must disclose to the complainant information about the sanction imposed on the perpetrator when the sanction directly relates to the harassed student. This includes an order that the harasser stay away from the harassed student, or that the harasser is prohibited from attending school for a period of time, or transferred to other classes or another residence hall.
      • Additionally, the Clery Act (20 U.S.C. §1092(f)), which only applies to postsecondary institutions, requires that both parties be informed of the outcome, including sanction information, of any institutional proceeding alleging a sex offense. Therefore, colleges and universities may not require a complainant to abide by a non-disclosure agreement, in writing or otherwise.
        The grievance procedures may include voluntary informal methods (e.g., mediation) for resolving some types of sexual harassment complaints. However, the complainant must be notified of the right to end the informal process at any time and begin the formal stage of the complaint process. In cases involving allegations of sexual assault, mediation is not appropriate.
 
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For what it's worth, Florida State responded to the article in the Times and objects to some of the characterizations and omissions.

http://fsunytimes.fsu.edu/

That's not to say the TPD did a good job here, because they clearly did not, and it also appears that at least the Florida State athletic department also did not act appropriately.
 

riotous

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Yep! The OCR is quite clear about what standards schools are (supposed to be) held to under Title IX.

Not that I don't think they might have ethical responsibilities, and I imagine it's also quite possible members of the school's staff (coaches/athletic department) attempted to influence the Police, but isn't their claim that it happened off campus a legitimate legal defense against the idea they violated federal law?
 

Cyan

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For what it's worth, Florida State responded to the article in the Times and objects to some of the characterizations and omissions.

http://fsunytimes.fsu.edu/

That's not to say the TPD did a good job here, because they clearly did not, and it also appears that at least the Florida State athletic department also did not act appropriately.

I like how carefully worded this key portion is:
In the case examined by The Times involving Jameis Winston, no university official outside the Victim Advocate Program received a report from any complainant naming Winston prior to when the allegations were made public in November 2013.
 

andthebeatgoeson

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For what it's worth, Florida State responded to the article in the Times and objects to some of the characterizations and omissions.

http://fsunytimes.fsu.edu/

That's not to say the TPD did a good job here, because they clearly did not, and it also appears that at least the Florida State athletic department also did not act appropriately.
Interesting. That page directly contradicts this quote from the Times article:

Records show that Florida State’s athletic department knew about the rape accusation early on, in January 2013, when the assistant athletic director called the police to inquire about the case.

With this:
In the case examined by The Times involving Jameis Winston, no university official outside the Victim Advocate Program received a report from any complainant naming Winston prior to when the allegations were made public in November 2013.
Edit: is this just bullshit wording?
 

kirblar

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It's not, but it's intentionally narrow. The athletic department knew about the athlete and said nothing to the department they're required to report to.

It actually says a truckload by being worded that way.
 
Nov 20, 2010
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Interesting. That page directly contradicts this quote from the Times article:

With this:

It could be precisely as written that they never had an official report from the complainant. But also note that in your quote of the article, you select a portion that says "assistant athletic director." The actual note from the officer on the case said "[sic] athletic directors assistant." It's still (likely) someone in the school, but an athletic director's assistant could include anyone of any capacity notably not the actual AD. Who knows who it was.

The full text of that reference (available as an image in the NYT article) is simply "received a call from the Athletic Directors Assistant inquiring about the case.” No note is left as to what was disclosed to the person that called, if it was actually communicated to be a sexual assault, whether the investigation was ongoing, etc.

Clearly, let's not get it twisted, clearly the TPD did not do an acceptable investigation here. But as for who inside Florida State knew of the case, and what exactly they knew, it's a bit vague. If someone in the athletic department knew of the sexual complaint and did not forward that information as required, then obviously that person should be dismissed and Florida State needs to find out who else knew. And if Florida State can determine through their own investigation that Jameis Winston is guilty, then he should also be dismissed from school.

--------
In the interests of disclosure for those not in the CFB thread, I am a big fan of Florida State football. Just putting it out there. But as I said, if someone inside Florida State acted improperly and if Jameis Winston is guilty, I want them dismissed.
 

Derwind

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I skimmed through most of it but holy shit they let a football player accused in a rape investigation play the entire year?!

And fuck the school for hindering the investigation so effectively.
 

devildog820

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I skimmed through most of it but holy shit they let a football player accused in a rape investigation play the entire year?!

And fuck the school for hindering the investigation so effectively.

That, I'm ok with. Innocent until proven guilty. But any actual investigation would have been wrapped up within a few days or weeks.

Otherwise you can bet there would be a cottage industry of false accusers before big games. (Only mild sarcasm)
 

rocketskates

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That, I'm ok with. Innocent until proven guilty. But any actual investigation would have been wrapped up within a few days or weeks.

Otherwise you can bet there would be a cottage industry of false accusers before big games. (Only mild sarcasm)
Yeah, I'm ok with the whole innocent until proven guilty but I definitely agree that if it had been an actual legit investigation it would have been wrapped up a lot sooner.

QUOTE=Cyan;108663021]Mmm. I think this is a little naive. Big athletes are big money. That's where the institutional protection comes in. What amplifies it and makes it even worse is when the fans are rabid enough to join in on the protection. From what I've seen of hockey and soccer fans, they're no less zealous in their fandom than American football fans.


Other examples that spring immediately to mind: Jerramy Stevens at UW, Sandusky at Penn St. Neither of those places are part of the American South. This is a money and fandom issue, not a southern cultural issue.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't have said it better myself. It's not a southern culture issue, this can and does happen everywhere and it's all about the money and fandom.

Stuebenville isn't the south nor was it involving collegiate level athletes and look at how far the community went to protect them. I think that further supports the idea that any member of an institutional sport is going to receive protection, regardless of the sport, location or level of athleticism.
As much as the FSU incident disgusts me, at the same time it's common knowledge that college athletes are "awarded" certain levels of protection. I'm not saying it's right, because it's definitely not, but it's common knowledge. And it's a fucking disgusting shame that this level of incompetence and bullshit has trickled it's way down to high school sports. In certain ways it's worse that these KIDS are put on the pedestal they are and deemed invincible. The FSU case was indeed despicable but I think the Steubenville incident and everything that happened there is the worst example of not only ignorance and corruption but the most embarrassing display of how sports and the players play into a community.
 

Yaboosh

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Mar 18, 2010
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Yes. They're implying they didn't know about it at all, but actually only saying that they didn't receive an official complaint from the victim.


How is it bullshit wording? Victim advocates at FSU have a confidentiality with people who come and see them. They aren't allowed to report anything they say unless the victim allows it.

So a victim advocate knew, but did not, and could not, tell the school without an ok from the victim.



As for fans of the football program still supporting Winston, it is hard to say the right thing. He might be a rapist, might not be. For that reason does any reasonable fan have to stop supporting the football team altogether? How do you support a football team without supporting the qb? I guess I just don't see what people expect FSU fans to do other than express their disgust with how the whole investigation was handled.
 

mre

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May 19, 2006
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How is it bullshit wording? Victim advocates at FSU have a confidentiality with people who come and see them. They aren't allowed to report anything they say unless the victim allows it.

So a victim advocate knew, but did not, and could not, tell the school without an ok from the victim.



As for fans of the football program still supporting Winston, it is hard to say the right thing. He might be a rapist, might not be. For that reason does any reasonable fan have to stop supporting the football team altogether? How do you support a football team without supporting the qb? I guess I just don't see what people expect FSU fans to do other than express their disgust with how the whole investigation was handled.
I said this back when this whole story broke, but TPD ultimately did both Winston and the alleged victim a disservice. By failing to investigate the claim properly, they have effectively made it so that the truth of that night will never be discovered. Was she raped? Who know. If so, then it is reprehensible that Winston will walk. If, however, she wasn't raped, then Winston will now never be able to clear his name.
 

npfpof

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Just shows you the power of football. Having gone to university and seeing how this case was handled so poorly, he probably did it. It's tough because I know the mentality some male athletes have. Then again, drunk girls say things and you can never really know.
 
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