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Obsidian is better than Blizzard, Bethesda, and Bioware all AT THE SAME TIME

Ok, let me slightly adjust my statement to "twice as talented at creating RPGs". Because between Dragon Age 2 and what happened to ME after 1, it seems Bioware lost most of their aptitude at that.

DA2 is the only legitimate stinker they've made so far, the ME series was a conscious decision to move away from genre conventions (and actually with 3 they introduced more RPG elements back into the series, and they were better than they were in ME1). DA1 showed that they can create these sorts of games if they please, and don't forget that DA2 had a ludicrously short dev cycle, the kind of thing we're supposed to be cutting Obsidian slack for in this thread.
 
wasn't alpha protocol a bad game?
No, I'd rank it among my top 5 this generation. That was also the point were I finally decided to completely disregard reviews, since listening to them even a tiny bit convinced me to miss out on the game for half a year.

Yes, because Obsidian miraculously managed to release one game this gen that was bug-free (not even their best game, which is the real tragedy) my entire statement is rendered completely false.

Yeah, no.
Your statement was that their games were *always* buggy. (Emphasis yours) So yes, I have indeed proven your statement completely false.
 
DA2 is the only legitimate stinker they've made so far, the ME series was a conscious decision to move away from genre conventions (and actually with 3 they introduced more RPG elements back into the series, and they were better than they were in ME1). DA1 showed that they can create these sorts of games if they please, and don't forget that DA2 had a ludicrously short dev cycle, the kind of thing we're supposed to be cutting Obsidian slack for in this thread.

The difference being that Obsidian's created some of the best RPGs in recent memory with short and butchered dev times. DA2 was just a terrible game in almost every way let alone a bad RPG. It's clear they're trying to go for people who don't play RPGs anymore and that direction was going to be apparent in DA2 even if it had 3 years.
 
-Eh, I still don't agree with that. I made it to Freeside on my first playthrough without going south first and not knowing about the stealth boy in Goodsprings. The roads are marked pretty clearly on the map and they tell you that Benny was a New Vegas person.
- Not really
- I thought that at too first and still kinda do. Its made a lot clearer once you actually talk to the guy for a while but I do think they could have been fleshed out more
- The different Level scaling made it more rewarding imo
- They've been removed
- There were valleys and rivers and a big lake in New Vegas
- Maybe.

The lake/river is confined to the side of the map and the only interesting thing on the other side is a Deathclaw nest.

Useless? You can craft that scrap metal into a weapon repair kit or bullets, buddy. That's way more useful than selling it to that guy in Megaton who dies 90% of the time because his pathing is bugged.

He's never died on me. And I found the XP and caps more useful. You can also give scrap to the outcasts and get ammo or healing items.

Besides, most F:NV locations do have good or rare shit in them, just not "permanent stat upgrades for free, you're now a demi-god" shit.

No, it's not.


These complaints always get a chuckle out of me. I think NV should've given 1 perk every 4 levels, and reduced the level cap to at least 40. I feel like big rewards after hard work are far more satisfying than constant spoonfeeding, positive reinforcement.

Yes, I want to constantly become stronger. In New Vegas it was frustrating how weak you are to most enemies at the start of the game.

NV didn't have that many places where there was nothing. You're talking about maybe 5-10 places out of a game that has 100+ locations.

And you talk about the bobbleheads being taken out. That was a good thing as most of them gave permanent stat upgrades on top of all the upgrades you found throughout Fallout 3. NV replaced them with snow globes that give money instead which is much more valuable in the game (some of the weapons at the shops can run you 10k+ caps). But it's not like they took out permanent stat upgrades in the game, you just need to work a little more to get them and make choices on what to get.

It's not just the main locations, but minor unmarked side areas. Fallout 3 had a lot of small shacks where you could find ammo, skill books or an interesting note. In New Vegas you'll mostly find (veryhard to see) star caps at those areas.
 
different-strokes.jpg


Personally I'd say that Vault 11 alone was more memorable than any single location in F3.

Camp Searchlight is under appreciated imo.
 
They really need the budget and time to fine tune a lot of big ideas they usually have. Pumping out a title on the cheap in a year and a half might work for EA but that is NOT how good games are made.

Every game of theirs since starting Obsidian has been generally understaffed and rushed out the door before completion, leading to ambitious systems with quality writing, riddled with bugs and flatout missing content that was not complete in time
 
For all their awkwardness and internet hate-ons lately, I still plenty like Bioware, and I still had a blast with DA:O on the PC and the whole ME trilogy. Even SWTOR had a lot of goodness wrapped up in a genre where it never should have been placed into in the first places, such a shame all that content is just going to rot.
 
you're right. they're better than even Bethesda at breaking shit.

and if you think Dungeon Siege III is superior to Diablo III then either you've only played one of the two or you really get a raging hate-on for the DRM and the auction house that completely clouds your ability to see that Diablo III is a better game.
 
For all their awkwardness and internet hate-ons lately, I still plenty like Bioware, and I still had a blast with DA:O on the PC and the whole ME trilogy. Even SWTOR had a lot of goodness wrapped up in a genre where it never should have been placed into in the first places, such a shame all that content is just going to rot.

I hear ya. Bio is a good Dev, but they are also a business. Sometimes you gotta cater to the market even if that means breaking convention.
 
The difference being that Obsidian's created some of the best RPGs in recent memory with short and butchered dev times. DA2 was just a terrible game in almost every way let alone a bad RPG. It's clear they're trying to go for people who don't play RPGs anymore and that direction was going to be apparent in DA2 even if it had 3 years.

I do hope you'd understand why I can't agree with that statement given that I hated the shit out of AP. If I played NV tomorrow and loved it, that would be one game recently that was "one of the best", which would be admirable but would not elevate them past other studios.

Yeah but remember DA1 was in development loooong before EA entered the picture (like around 2004) and was close to release when EA acquired them.

I'm going to tell you something that will give you nightmares for weeks.

EA didn't ruin Bioware. Bioware was actaully one of the driving forces behind the negative changes not only in their games, but across the EA lineup (e.g. day one DLC).
 
I do hope you'd understand why I can't agree with that statement given that I hated the shit out of AP. If I played NV tomorrow and loved it, that would be one game recently that was "one of the best", which would be admirable but would not elevate them past other studios.

What was your opinion on Neverwinter Nights 2 + Expansions if you've played them?
 
DA2 is the only legitimate stinker they've made so far, the ME series was a conscious decision to move away from genre conventions (and actually with 3 they introduced more RPG elements back into the series, and they were better than they were in ME1). DA1 showed that they can create these sorts of games if they please, and don't forget that DA2 had a ludicrously short dev cycle, the kind of thing we're supposed to be cutting Obsidian slack for in this thread.
DA1 showed that with a ridiculously long development cycle (that no Obsidian game ever remotely had access to), they can push out a RtwP party-based RPG with a stale setting and story, and simplified gameplay mechanics. Obsidian's NWN2:MotB is an entry in the same (sub-)genre that is superior in every way, excluding graphics.

About the ME series, as extreme as that may sound, in my opinion even framing the discussion in terms of "RPG elements" already shows a deeper underlying issue. In an RPG you shouldn't need to count "RPG elements" to show how it belongs in the genre. "RPG elements" are something you point out in an FPS or an RTS. In fact, multiple times in ME3 when I completed one of its sidequests (returning to the central "quest mall" that the Citadel was reduced to) I couldn't shake the feeling of Bioware ticking boxes somewhere.
 
I still think NWN 2 Mask of the Betrayer was better than Planescape Torment as an overall game.
Now lets not go overboard here. There's no shame in losing to the best game of all time.

Holy shit, an RPG where you start out weak to most enemies and then become stronger by the end of the game.
But then how can I go everywhere and accomplish everything I want at any time during the game?
 
They really need the time and budget to flesh out their big ideas.

Every title they've worked on since their inception has been incredibly ambitious and fantastically written, but riddled with bugs and at points flatout missing chunks of content.

Putting out a title (especially an RPG) in 18 months might be fine with EA, but quality games do NOT get made that way. A lot of their games seem to suffer from being rushed out the door before completion just to placate investors for their quarterly sales stats.

I know it's fashionable to shit on them for those who only care about robust systems with zero glitches, but it is a shame because it's pretty darn obvious that their biggest issues come from a lack of support from their publishers/investors (you only need to look at the Metacritic Zenimax bonus fiasco or what happened to KotorII).
 
New Vegas was waaay too fetch questy and somehow managed to be more broken than FO3. It did some interesting stuff with the story but quest design was lacking (so much so that I quit when I realised they weren't going to let me start the end game until I'd gone fetching for the BoS).
 
Oh god yes. Putting its backstory together was definitely a high point, and like V11 it has a couple of wonderful dark twists. Vault 22 (the plants one) is also pretty entertaining if you're on the quest from Nellis.

Oh shit dude! The first time I saw one of the
Spore Carriers
move I nearly had a heart attack. XD
 
I do hope you'd understand why I can't agree with that statement given that I hated the shit out of AP. If I played NV tomorrow and loved it, that would be one game recently that was "one of the best", which would be admirable but would not elevate them past other studios.

I had Kotor 2 at the front of my mind in that comment since that's the most publicized "broken game". They still get blamed for that too when it was the publisher who ok'ed a delay to get the game done and then pulled the rug out from under them and forced a late 04 release. The game that exists now without the restoration mod was all done in less than 1 year of development.
 
Not when it comes to polish.
Everything they've released always has some issues evident.
Especially Alpha Protocol. game could have been great had it gotten more polish
 
I feel like they are the best at coming up with cool concepts for RPGs and they are great at writing but I have a hard time agreeing with you OP.

All the studios listed in your OP excels in very specific things just like Obsidian excels in their own things too.

NV had much better writing than 3 and your choices have much more impact and the some mechanics are greatly refined. On the other hand I felt exploring was better in 3. I personally feel like Bethesda is good at creating a world to explore but not at fleshing it out. Point Lookout is probably my favorite area of the modern fallouts. A swamp, a dock/town/amusement park area,a secret lab, a mansion, a submarine and a concentration camp but the characters there were all forgetable.

While Old World Blues is probably the best thing writing wise to come out of the modern fallouts for me yet it has a really bland world to explore.

Bioware is usually better at making fluid gameplay and making sure all classes are fun to play but usually have issues with the writing of their games and have a tendency to oversimply/dumb down things. I feel like ME2/ME3 have way better controls and fluid gameplay than Alpha Protocol for instance. Classes are more balanced too.
 
Fallout 3 was okay but I am definitely liking NV a little more with all the mods. They are still similar though and not a great distance apart imo.
 
Obsidian is probably my favourite dev, I'm playing Fallout NV to this day and it's one of the best games I've ever played.

Edit: The DLCs were also amazing. Old World Blues and The Lonesome Road especially.
 
AP is also an alternate universe Mass Effect where the game-play never got better. Choice and Consequence is a central part of the experience and AP does it great, but it fundamentally fails to build a compelling game to hold together the story and reactivity. Bad gameplay is one of the worst sins you can commit as a game designer. There is no reason AP actually has to be an RPG in the mechanical sense of using dice rolls, nor was it a requirement to have ultra-gamey abilities. Ludicrous kill chains where you run up and shoot people in the face or kung fu them to death while being literally invisible in the middle of a well lit room detracts from the experience, although I'm certainly not going to argue that implausible and silly shit like that isn't traditional RPG stuff. But at this point it feels like Obsidian is holding themselves back just for the sake of having RPG stuff, not because it makes their games better.

The fact that ME2 came out so close to AP did it no favors. Not only because it was marketed better (although it was), but because it took the opposite approach - focusing on improving mechanics and polishing the game. It resonated with far more people as a result. The tragedy is that AP didn't have to suck as a game, and ME2 didn't have to have a shit main story. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where both studios made better choices, but ME2/3 are eminently more playable and enjoyable experiences than AP was for me.

The gameplay in Alpha Protocol was much better than in Mass Effect 1. Mass Effect 1 had all of the disadvantages of statistics-heavy combat mechanics without ever making use of the advantages that those sorts of systems can bring to the table.
The shooting was still really janky and relied on dice rolls, the balance was absolutely atrocious and after you select your character class there is never another point in the game where you have to make a hard choice about how you choose to advance. Every single Biotic ability is a slight variation on the exact same disable/ragdoll CC effect - Except Warp, which is instead useless unless you're fighting a Krogan on Insanity, in which case it is necessary if you don't want to spend five minutes per fight. There was a big stat sheet full of hundreds of bubbles you could fill in with skill points, and 75%+ of those bubbles did nothing but add 2% to one stat. There were never any non-combat, non-scripted resolutions to enemy encounters.

Alpha Protocol is just as bad with the overall 'feel' of the combat (having to stand stock still in order for your aim to stabilize makes it worse; being able to get actual locational damage where headshots will kill enemies makes it better), but it absolutely makes up for it when it comes to using the RPG mechanics to present the player with actual variation in gameplay and actual tough choices to make.
Stealth/Pistols is overpowered, but other specs behave and play differently, instead of ME1 where suboptimal specs are just less effective versions of the optimal ones. Shotguns feel different to play, so do Assault Rifles, so does Unarmed, etc. You again have a skill sheet with dozens and dozens of bubbles to fill in, but every single bubble affords you a novel, noticeable upgrade to the skill in question; it's frequently very difficult to decide where you want to stick your skill points. And when you reach a high level, you aren't using the exact same disable/ragdoll CC that you had in the first hour of the game, but three times as often - you actually gain skills that feel very meaningfully powerful - like being, on paper, according to the stats, such a stealthy motherfucker that you are effectively invisible to enemies as you beat them down, even where the game doesn't have representation of any cover for you to hide behind. You have a limited number of equipment and item slots you can take with you on any given mission, and you're allowed to pack light if you want to play stealthily, heavier if you're willing to sacrifice stealth for stronger direct combat ability, etc.
There's also a fairly robust stealth system in place that allows you an alternative to directly confronting (non-boss) enemies in combat, and the game's statistical side ties directly in with the dialogue/influence systems by giving you a variety of small perks for basically every different solution to every problem in the game, who your current handler is, which missions you've done before, etc, which adds another layer to the statistical customization of the game.


I probably enjoyed ME2 more than AP overall too, and that's largely because Bioware produced a really nice, polished set of core action mechanics, but there's no denying that it was absolutely anemic in terms of gameplay variation based on player choice, after you pick your character class at creation. Many of the best aspects of Mass Effect 2's gameplay are matched or improved on in other, dedicated shooters, while there's really not a whole lot else that even tries to do what AP does in combat, let alone games that actually do it better.
 
I've got like 170 hours on New Vegas. So lets just say I like it. What I don't like, however, is how when the game ends it ends. I can't revisit anything or even do the DLC after the main story. Gotta do everything you wanna do before the final mission.
 
Obsidian's NWN2:MotB is an entry in the same (sub-)genre that is superior in every way, excluding graphics.

Man, worse graphics than Dragon Age 1? I'm going to send them a cake congratulating them on doing something I thought was impossible.

About the ME series, as extreme as that may sound, in my opinion even framing the discussion in terms of "RPG elements" already shows a deeper underlying issue. In an RPG you shouldn't need to count "RPG elements" to show how it belongs in the genre. "RPG elements" are something you point out in an FPS or an RTS. In fact, multiple times in ME3 when I completed one of its sidequests (returning to the central "quest mall" that the Citadel was reduced to) I couldn't shake the feeling of Bioware ticking boxes somewhere.

On the other hand, does it matter? If I agreed that Obsidian was infinitely better at "RPG stuff" and that AP was "better at being an RPG", that wouldn't mean it was a better game. At this point you're just talking about intangible feelings you're getting and I'm not sure how I can respond, or if I even have to.
 
Vault 11 just might be my favorite part of the main game. It is so good.

Kinda wanna reinstall now. Urgh.

Do eeeeeeeet

Once I leave my job and become a house husband in 6 weeks I figure I can play it in between cleaning, shopping and having illicit affairs with my neighbours.
 
That's your opinion, fine, but even if it were true it doesn't make the statement I quoted any less wrong.

You are correct it is a fact that, to-date, Obsidian has made one game that is bug free.


Another Opinion: Obsidian is forever cursed to make games that are great in some ways, but are always held back by at least one key flaw.

Dungeon Siege 3 was the first Obsidian game I played that was perfectly competent from a "playing the game" perspective, yet they managed to leave out their signature above-average writing and the game ended up being a 12 hour long snooze.

Alpha Protocol has so many great ideas packed into it it is astounding, but then they decided to use the most monotone voice actor ever for the main character and make the game play like a low budget, previous generation Splinter Cell Conviction knock-off with shooting even worse than Mass Effect 1.

KOTOR 2 has good writing (if you're into Star Wars anymore), but it was the first game I've ever played that had a game breaking bug 20 hours through with no fix other than starting over (which I will not).

I have yet to play enough of New Vegas to get a worthwhile opinion, but after 13 hours it's been pretty boring. Decent writing, and surprisingly bug free for me so far, but it plays exactly the same as F3 to me and reuses too many of F3's assets for it to feel like a fresh experience to me so far.

I'd love for their South Park game to be good, but I don't really have high hopes for it either.
 
There's also a fairly robust stealth system in place that allows you an alternative to directly confronting (non-boss) enemies in combat,

Fairly robust? Broken, more like. Invisibility powers, against both man and machine. Insta-hostile enemies. Disappearing bodies.
 
Now lets not go overboard here. There's no shame in losing to the best game of all time.

But then how can I go everywhere and accomplish everything I want at any time during the game?

Not necessarily a bad thing. Fallout 3 still had hard areas for new players, they just didn't surround you with them at the start. Being able to set off in a random direction and explore is the biggest advantage of Bethesda games.
 
The gameplay in Alpha Protocol was much better than in Mass Effect 1.

I'm not so sure. They're both horrible in many fundamental ways, and deciding which one is worse seems to be an exercise in irrelevance, although by all means continue to expound if you wish. Did you play AP on PC with a K&M? The minigames were borderline unplayable. And your characterization of the stealth system as "robust" gave me a hearty chuckle.
 
oh, and it's also fucking stupid to label Obsidian as better than Bethesda because they made New Vegas. is it a better game? yeah. but all they did was build on the foundation that was laid out by Bethesda, so the comparison is useless.
 
The thing I learned about gaf is that the minority is 10/ times louder than the majority.

People here are calling mass effect 3 , journey terrible games but then they go on to get top spots in the neogaf goty list.

Same shit with Obsidian. Most people probably don't even give a shit about them but the one that do are really loud.
 
Alpha Protocol - Funny enjoyable game with terribly broken mechanic. Good dialogue/characters with fantastic choice/consequence system but everything else is a broken mess.

New Vegas - Improvement in many ways when compared to FO3, but it seems like the game itself later crumbles under its own unachievable ambition.

KOTOR 2 - It *cannot* be argued that this game was largely better written when compared to KOTOR, but in the end it, like New Vegas (in my opinion), crumbled under its own lofty ambition.

Dungeon Siege III - Boring crap.

------------------------

Just my opinion though: the existence of Dragon Age Origins alone is enough to invalidate all the statement in the OP. It must have been my most played game this gen for me.
 
House husband's a good gig man. I've been doing it for the past 3 years.

Oh yeah? Nice!

Yeah we're about to have our first kid, which means I'm moving to the states and won't be able to work until after we get married and go through the whole immigration process. I'm thinking that once the baby arrives and she's working again I may develop a taste for it though, more time to write smartphone apps and play with my child.
 
The thing I learned about gaf is that the minority is 10/ times louder than the majority.

People here are calling mass effect 3 , journey terrible games but then they go on to get top spots in the neogaf goty list.

Same shit with Obsidian. Most people probably don't even give a shit about them but the one that do are really loud.

Maybe that's because stupid people can't articulate their thoughts and have bad taste?
 
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