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[LAMBO]

There is a huge market for the Halo, GOW, Gears, mass appeal type games, and another, smaller market for the real games fans. It's nice to to see this has been realized and people are making games accordingly. You can't please everyone, please don't try.

 

[dab0ne]

Cleaning, shopping, and having illicit affairs with your neighbors?

Yep, except for the cleaning and shopping.

 

[Syraxith]

I'm not so sure. They're both horrible in many fundamental ways, and deciding which one is worse seems to be an exercise in irrelevance, although by all means continue to expound if you wish. Did you play AP on PC with a K&M? The minigames were borderline unplayable. And your characterization of the stealth system as "robust" gave me a hearty chuckle.

I like'd AP but you gotta admit this was pretty ridiculous.

 

[li bur]

Competitive advantage in writing? HELL YEAHHH!

Overall better? Not even close...

 

[Derrick01]

KOTOR 2 - It *cannot* be argued that this game was largely better written when compared to KOTOR

Yes it can, easily. It's sooo much better written it's not even funny, and like NV it uses RPG gameplay in the dialogue much more masterfully than its predecessor.

 

[hemtae]

Yes it can, easily. It's sooo much better written it's not even funny, and like NV it uses RPG gameplay in the dialogue much more masterfully than its predecessor.

I think that's what he means.

 

[Coxswain]

Robust? Broken, more like. Invisibility powers, against both man and machine.

A hallmark of the RPG genre is an above-average level of abstraction between player input and systemic output. Having a high enough Stealth skill that you turn 'invisible' to enemies onscreen is an abstraction of the idea that the player character is just that good at hiding and moving quickly/silently, without having to actually surround every enemy in the game with strategically placed boxes and shelves, give them all predictable patrol patterns with well-defined cones of vision, and then make the player spend five minutes crouched on top of a box behind another box looking for the six-second window in which they can crouch-walk past (fun exercise: Try to justify why the inexplicable placement of boxes and man-sized air vents with vent covers that can be silently swung open from the inside or outside in less than a second is somehow more realistic and less immersion-breaking than 'okay, they can't see you, you've got four seconds to get out of there before they do, go'.


It's no more or less broken than being able to turn invisible in Deus Ex or being able to Cloak as an Infiltrator in Mass Effect 2/3. Only the lore is different.

 

[dab0ne]

Oh yeah? Nice!

Yeah we're about to have our first kid, which means I'm moving to the states and won't be able to work until after we get married and go through the whole immigration process. I'm thinking that once the baby arrives and she's working again I may develop a taste for it though, more time to write smartphone apps and play with my child.

It's hard with kids though brother. Games and children are not symbiotic. Just make sure to set aside some time for you or your kids become your job, which isn't very fun.

 

[Derrick01]

I think that's what he means.

Oh yeah I'm pretty sure I misread that looking back on it now. Apologies! I'm in defense mode here

 

[Laughing Banana]

Yes it can, easily. It's sooo much better written it's not even funny, and like NV it uses RPG gameplay in the dialogue much more masterfully than its predecessor.

Hahaha what?

A hallmark of the RPG genre is an above-average level of abstraction between player input and systemic output. Having a high enough Stealth skill that you turn 'invisible' to enemies onscreen is an abstraction of the idea that the player character is just that good at hiding and moving quickly/silently, without having to actually surround every enemy in the game with strategically placed boxes and shelves, give them all predictable patrol patterns with well-defined cones of vision, and then make the player spend five minutes crouched on top of a box behind another box looking for the six-second window in which they can crouch-walk past.

Well, this is new. Never thought anyone would explain the brokenness of AP's stealth system in such an... eloquent way... like this.

 

[Currygan]

ah damn I was hoping he wouldn't notice it

 

[Durante]

In terms of pure gaming enjoyment (kind of the point), Alpha Protocol was my favorite game this generation. So good.

Pretty much. The reason I'm an Obsidian fan is because I have more fun playing their games than pretty much anything else released by any other company that is still alive (sadly my favourite game developers seem to have a tendency to go under). The only other companies that come close are From Software and CDPR.

On the other hand, does it matter? If I agreed that Obsidian was infinitely better at "RPG stuff" and that AP was "better at being an RPG", that wouldn't mean it was a better game. At this point you're just talking about intangible feelings you're getting and I'm not sure how I can respond, or if I even have to.

Actually, you are bringing personal preferences into the discussion by trying to point out which is a "better game". I like RPGs, so I'll value the qualities that make a game a good RPG higher than those that e.g. make it a good action game. In a similar vein, I much prefer novelty and ambition to polish. You or other people might chose to weigh individual aspects differently.

However, the factors that make it a better RPG are not intangible at all. They are objective features such as allowing a variety of different methods to accomplish your goal in all situations, making statistical character building choices throughout the game meaningful, and shaping character interactions and the story outcome according to your choices. All of which further the goal of role-playing, and all of which Alpha Protocol excels in. If you still feel that's too intangible I can go into more detail on each of those.

 

[Lothars]

Nope Obsidian is one of the most overrated companies by some people here, they do make good games but not near as good as some suggest they are.

 

[Lime]

• Fallout: New Vegas was leaps and bounds better than Fallout 3. You could really feel the heart and thought put into its design, writing, and treatment of moral issues. For that alone, I would put Obsidian among some of my most respected developers.
• Alpha Protocol also had a much more interesting and rewarding take on Bioware's illusory "choices and consequences". Character style and lack of polish dragged the overall experience down.
• KOTOR2 was also a nice multifaceted approach to the Star Wars mythology, albeit the game lacked severely in execution, thus making it an unsatisfying and flawed experience. Still, I would probably rather revisit KOTOR2 these days than the more popular and widely lauded KOTOR1.

But one thing that Obsidian completely are not very good at, and is unfortunately much, much worse than Bioware, Bethesda and Blizzard, is their in-house concept artists (or whoever approves of their art styles). I honestly cannot think of an Obsidian game with an interesting art direction:

Dungeon Siege 3

Alpha Protocol

Project Eternity

I appreciate their heart and passion for maintaining decent-to-high writing standards in their portfolio, but they really need to get the heads of the art department or whoever is approving the work checked. Their visual work is simply not very appealing, at least to me. I'd still say that I prefer Obsidian's games to Bioware, Blizzard, and Bethesda, but they always offend me or bore me on the first look.

 

[AkuMifune]

NV is superior to FO3 in many ways, but something about FO3's tone and atmosphere I liked better. It was so much darker. The sense of loneliness, hopelessness. Could be something as simple as the color pallete though.

But the hardcore mode is godly. I wish every RPG had one. FO4 had better.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

It's hard with kids though brother. Games and children are not symbiotic. Just make sure to set aside some time for you or your kids become your job, which isn't very fun.

Yeah I hear that. A friend of mine was recommending buying an extra controller, leaving it unplugged, then giving it to the kid while I sit and play games. Hours of fun for both of us.

Well, this is new. Never thought anyone would explain the brokenness of AP's stealth system in such an... eloquent way... like this.

It's not just AP though, I think that's a wonderful summation of stealth in RPGs in general.

 

[Alex]

NV is superior to FO3 in many ways, but something about FO3's tone and atmosphere I liked better. It was so much darker. The sense of loneliness, hopelessness. Could be something as simple as the color pallete though.

But the hardcore mode is godly. I wish every RPG had one. FO4 had better.

I love 'em both, it's taking the easy way out, but I just really genuinely enjoyed both games. There's something about the modern iterations of Fallout that really do well with me.

Looking forward to FO4, but I wish Obsidian could make another as well, although it sounds like that relationship may not have went over so well. Of course, what relationship does seem to go over well for poor Obsidian?

 

[Trigger]

I like Obsidian. I love a good story so I usually dig their stuff. They're far from perfect, but really no studio is.

 

[hemtae]

NV is superior to FO3 in many ways, but something about FO3's tone and atmosphere I liked better. It was so much darker. The sense of loneliness, hopelessness. Could be something as simple as the color pallete though.

But the hardcore mode is godly. I wish every RPG had one. FO4 had better.

I don't think it will. Skyrim was perfect for it with its cooking stuff and set in a pretty hostile climate. They'll just leave it up to the mod community I suppose.

 

[Almighty]

You are correct it is a fact that, to-date, Obsidian has made one game that is bug free.

Not to single you out here, but this seems like a weak counter argument. I mean one "bug free"(quotes because I don't believe it is really bug free. I have never played it though) game still sounds better to me then the zero bug free games Bethesda or Bioware has put out. Really I think it is fine to slam Obsidian for buggy games I just wish people were consistent. Just a little annoyance of mine when i see people say FNV was a buggy mess, but then give Bethesda a free pass. Even worse when they slam FNV for bugs that were in goddamn Morrowind and every Bethesda game since.

 

[injurai]

Nope Obsidian is one of the most overrated companies by some people here, they do make good games but not near as good as some suggest they are.

I think it's more their games have a lack of polish and suffer from publisher demands. Really though they have some incredible talent.

 

[Bob White]

New Vegas is a fucking work of art. It's one of my top 5 games of all time. This thread is correct.

 

[zkylon]

Can't say about DSIII but yeah, Obsidian is right now my favorite developer in the business.

I think they're among the few that still get what a RPG really is, you can tell by the developer videos on PE that they know their shit and aren't just throwing ideas around without real thought like Bethesda or Bioware.

 

[Laughing Banana]

It's not just AP though, I think that's a wonderful summation of stealth in RPGs in general.

Well, yes, I guess, since come to think of it I cannot recall any RPG with a decent / believable stealth mechanic.

Which is why I think AP could be a whole lot better game if they just made it straight up action/stealth game instead of shoehorning RPG elements like that just because; can't help but to feel silly when you see a super secret agent is aiming a pistol only a meter away from a guy and then he miss just because a random number generator in the back decides that he miss it.

Well regardless of the current state of stealth gameplay in RPGs, it doesn't stop the fact that the stealth system in AP is broken.

 

[outlawedprod]

If we want to talk about the fall of Blizzard that is currently in progress a better parallel example is Square. A once great company whose games the fans eagerly watched and lavishly with praise. A game company that could do no wrong until now they are basically reduced to a company that makes killer cinematics for their games.

I bet if someone writes up a detailed post about that many people will be able to post some incredible arguments and get themselves banned.

 

[Yagharek]

I cant say any of the four studios in question should be considered that good anymore based on recent records.

However Obsidian at least has mitigating circumstances as an explanation.

 

[Lancehead]

A hallmark of the RPG genre is an above-average level of abstraction between player input and systemic output. Having a high enough Stealth skill that you turn 'invisible' to enemies onscreen is an abstraction of the idea that the player character is just that good at hiding and moving quickly/silently, without having to actually surround every enemy in the game with strategically placed boxes and shelves, give them all predictable patrol patterns with well-defined cones of vision, and then make the player spend five minutes crouched on top of a box behind another box looking for the six-second window in which they can crouch-walk past (fun exercise: Try to justify why the inexplicable placement of boxes and man-sized air vents with vent covers that can be silently swung open from the inside or outside in less than a second is somehow more realistic and less immersion-breaking than 'okay, they can't see you, you've got four seconds to get out of there before they do, go'.


It's no more or less broken than being able to turn invisible in Deus Ex or being able to Cloak as an Infiltrator in Mass Effect 2/3. Only the lore is different.

I'm not arguing for realism (that's a weak argument unless it's about high fidelity simulation), nor am I arguing for something like Thief or DXHR. It's "broken" because it makes it too easy (invisibility, disappearing bodies), or frustrating (insta-hostile enemies, generally stupid AI).

E.g. I'd have preferred much harsher limitations on the invisibility powers, and only keep active abilities and get rid of the automatic triggers.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

New avatar in honour of this thread!

Well, yes, I guess, since come to think of it I cannot recall any RPG with a decent / believable stealth mechanic.

Which is why I think AP could be a whole lot better game if they just made it straight up action/stealth game instead of shoehorning RPG elements like that just because; can't help but to feel silly when you see a super secret agent is aiming a pistol only a meter away from a guy and then he miss just because a random number generator in the back decides that he miss it.

Well regardless of the current state of stealth gameplay in RPGs, it doesn't stop the fact that the stealth system in AP is broken.

It certainly is, no denial of that from me. However I'd have gone the other way and actually made things like stealth and combat even more reliant on the RPG systems. The biggest problem with shooting and RPG elements is balancing out the effect of aiming versus stats. I think that the New Vegas approach, where you can use iron-sights to shoot the balls off a fly from 100 metres but won't actually kill it if you're hopeless at using those weapons, is generally a better trade off between "skill is everything" and "skill is nothing".

 

[Coxswain]

And your characterization of the stealth system as "robust" gave me a hearty chuckle.

"Robust" in the sense that stealth is applicable in nearly every area of the game (everywhere except boss fights, as far as I'm aware). Compare this with small stealth segments shoehorned into other games, like the beginning of ME2's Arrival DLC, or the places where you can throw guys off of cliffs by sneaking up on them in Uncharted 2, etc.

"Robust" in the sense that stealth will meaningfully change the outcome of an encounter - the Infiltrator's Cloak in Mass Effect 2/3 will let you creep around without being seen, but you're still not ever going to get to advance from one room to the next without sooner or later shooting up all the enemies.

And "Robust" in the sense that the system interacts with the equipment/inventory system in a meaningful way, and is supported by a variety of skills that allow the player to become much better at sneaking throughout the game without relying entirely on the player getting to know enemy paths better. There are specific skills in the line that increase your overall ability to stay hidden, skills that let you basically take a mulligan if you're spotted, a silent running skill, and even one that is on par power-wise with any 'max level' skill that you could think to give a specific weapon or fighting style.

Edit:

It certainly is, no denial of that from me. However I'd have gone the other way and actually made things like stealth and combat even more reliant on the RPG systems. The biggest problem with shooting and RPG elements is balancing out the effect of aiming versus stats. I think that the New Vegas approach, where you can use iron-sights to shoot the balls off a fly from 100 metres but won't actually kill it if you're hopeless at using those weapons, is generally a better trade off between "skill is everything" and "skill is nothing".

On that note, I am almost positive that I have seen Obsidian employees who worked on the game say that they wanted the game's aiming to be almost entirely down to the player's actual skill in aiming the reticule, and that the 'stand still and focus' part (unquestionably the worst part of the game's combat system) was a mandate from Sega because they thought it would make it more 'RPG-like'.

 

[LuchaShaq]

I'll never understand Gaf's drooling love for Obsidian. They have never made a game I would call good and Alpha Protocol is the only game of theirs I would even call interesting.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Well, yes, I guess, since come to think of it I cannot recall any RPG with a decent / believable stealth mechanic.

Which is why I think AP could be a whole lot better game if they just made it straight up action/stealth game instead of shoehorning RPG elements like that just because; can't help but to feel silly when you see a super secret agent is aiming a pistol only a meter away from a guy and then he miss just because a random number generator in the back decides that he miss it.

Well regardless of the current state of stealth gameplay in RPGs, it doesn't stop the fact that the stealth system in AP is broken.

It's the intrinsic disconnect between RPG abstraction and real time 3D gameplay. It's not new, but the way they chose to implement it is shit. The best modern RPGs are in the Deus Ex school, because they allow real time action gameplay to be complemented by the RPG aspects rather than acting as a jarring disconnect from them. You can get by purely on skill but the RPG systems unlock more paths and give more tools to get by with. What designers should NEVER do is what they did in ME1, AP et al, where the game is ostensibly skill-based, allowing the player free movement and aiming, but then still having hidden dice stuff.

 

[Omega]

anyone who thinks fallout 3 is better than new vegas, fuck you. you're why this gen sucks balls. encouraging RPGs that aren't actually RPGs and production values over actual gameplay.

Fallout 3 comes nowhere close to New Vegas at all, and I put 500 hours into Fallout 3 so I'm not some elitist.

 

[Krabboss]

Alpha Protocol and Dungeon Siege 3 are both pretty bad and I freakin' love Obsidian.

Alpha Protocol is a good RPG in the choice it gives you, but the writing isn't even close to their best and the gameplay is atrocious.

Fallout New Vegas is definitely a ton better than 3, though. I don't know how anybody thinks otherwise.

 

[Almighty]

On that note, I am almost positive that I have seen Obsidian employees who worked on the game say that they wanted the game's aiming to be almost entirely down to the player's actual skill in aiming the reticule, and that the 'stand still and focus' part (unquestionably the worst part of the game's combat system) was a mandate from Sega because they thought it would make it more 'RPG-like'.

You have because I read it too. Obsidian really was against the idea of a stat based aiming, because it never works right. Sega were the ones who mandated it.

 

[TheMan]

Alpha Protocol and Dungeon Siege 3 are both pretty bad and I freakin' love Obsidian.

Alpha Protocol is a good RPG in the choice it gives you, but the writing isn't even close to their best and the gameplay is atrocious.

i bought alpha protocol due to stupid neogaf neckbeard hype and was disappointed as soon as i started playing. gameplay was janky ass and the story was ho hum geopolitical bullshit. the game flopped and completely deserved to.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

On that note, I am almost positive that I have seen Obsidian employees who worked on the game say that they wanted the game's aiming to be almost entirely down to the player's actual skill in aiming the reticule, and that the 'stand still and focus' part (unquestionably the worst part of the game's combat system) was a mandate from Sega because they thought it would make it more 'RPG-like'.

"Mass Effect is more RPG"

It's the intrinsic disconnect between RPG abstraction and real time 3D gameplay. It's not new, but the way they chose to implement it is shit. The best modern RPGs are in the Deus Ex school, because they allow real time action gameplay to be complemented by the RPG aspects rather than acting as a jarring disconnect from them. You can get by purely on skill but the RPG systems unlock more paths and give more tools to get by with.

I really think you should play New Vegas.

 

[Piano]

Yes because having no programmers and no testers would totally fix the problem... Are you insane? The real solution to the bugginess problem is that they need to stop taking on projects with idiotic schedules. Making Fallout: New Vegas on that POS engine in just a year was fucking madness.

...

The implication being that they would hire new, better programmers and testers in their place. You're really dense.

 

[BillyBats]

Their games have way too many game crashing bugs. I'm sure it's different for many people, but in my experience, I have encountered a huge bug in all of their games. NWN2: huge game crashing bugs. Fallout NV: Huge quest destroying bugs. SW2: Unfinished story, huge bugs.

I know many on GAF love to poke sticks at the big guys like Bioware and Bethesda but to say Obsidian is better, ok. You're right, I'm wrong. You win. Does that make Obsidian's games less buggy and game breaking? No.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

i bought alpha protocol due to stupid neogaf neckbeard hype and was disappointed as soon as i started playing. gameplay was janky ass and the story was ho hum geopolitical bullshit. the game flopped and completely deserved to.

neogaf neckbeard hype

 

[Lancehead]

I really think you should play New Vegas.

New Vegas has similar problems.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

No one to this day has been able to describe why 3 is a better game. They always end up defaulting to the "uhh...the atmosphere was better!" line.

Ill say the world was worse than fallout 3.

They had next to no random encounters most of the map was static overworld, I thought obsidian would go crazy here but they didn't I think the only thing you get is the faction interrupts, and the star caps quest guy.

The strip was a massive let down, freeside just felt empty, like it could be half the size it was and still have everything in it, i dont know if they ran outta time or what here. The strip itself was also pretty bad, I realize they had to gate it up because "bethesda engine" but it was just so lackluster.

I also felt the game could have gone with some post hoover dam dlc content, sawyer or avellone mentioned they just didnt have the time to make post hoover dam quest changes, but I would have really loved that as some huge as dlc in place of some of the stuff we got (honest hearts for sure, even though I liked dead money, that could go too).

but i prefer NV to 3, inspite of its overworld.

 

[Durante]

neogaf neckbeard hype

These people value different things in games than I do, clearly they also suffer from poor personal hygiene!

 

[jim-jam bongs]

New Vegas has similar problems.

It's definitely not perfect, but I think it does a far better job of balancing stats and skill than AP. Like, I'd pretty much say that AP doesn't balance them at all.

 

[Nebula]

New Vegas was easily better than 3. And this is coming from somebody that liked 3.

Agreed. NV built upon a lot of the features FO3 brought in and gave us hardcore mode which is awesome. No point being in a wasteland when survival literally meant spamming stimpaks and shooting/punching people along the way. They saw this issue and gave an option to remedy it if the player felt the need to do so.

Also I loved the DLC with NV. Only 2 of FO3s DLCs felt worth it.

 

[Almighty]

The strip was a massive let down, freeside just felt empty, like it could be half the size it was and still have everything in it, i dont know if they ran outta time or what here. The strip itself was also pretty bad, I realize they had to gate it up because "bethesda engine" but it was just so lackluster.

Blame the consoles and/or the engine for that. Oblivion and Skyrim all had the problem of trying to show off big cites that had 20 people in them. Don't even get me started on those so called epic battles all three games Fallout NV, Skyrim, and Oblivion tried to have.

 

[Gestahl]

The strip was a massive let down, freeside just felt empty, like it could be half the size it was and still have everything in it, i dont know if they ran outta time or what here. The strip itself was also pretty bad, I realize they had to gate it up because "bethesda engine" but it was just so lackluster.
but i prefer NV to 3, inspite of its overworld.

As opposed to Fallout 3 "towns"

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Blame the consoles and/or the engine for that. Oblivion and Skyrim all had the problem of trying to show off big cites that had 20 people in them. Don't even get me started on those so called epic battles in Skyrim.

cmon you didn't like those outpost raids in skyrim with disappearing corpses!?

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Stopped reading exactly here : "...most revelations come to you if they don't get you on the toilet, first."

 

[Lancehead]

I also felt the game could have gone with some post hoover dam dlc content, sawyer or avellone mentioned they just didnt have the time to make post hoover dam quest changes, but I would have really loved that as some huge as dlc in place of some of the stuff we got (honest hearts for sure, even though I liked dead money, that could go too).

We always wanted to support post-Hoover play. A few milestones prior to being content complete, it was obvious that we weren't going to be able to support it to the extent that it deserved (robust reactivity to the choices the player made). Because we didn't have time to do it correctly, I made the decision to cut it.

The DLC is better than the main game, by the way.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Stopped reading exactly here : "...most revelations come to you if they don't get you on the toilet, first."

I know right? I'm far too busy playing Words With Friends to have any revelations on the toilet. It's why I lovingly refer to it as Turds With Friends.