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[Inuhanyou]

Heh, kinda conflicts with the "reality" the trailer exclaimed the game would have.

It generally annoyed me how much the prominence of the more medieval fantasy esque designs started showing up in FF15 after it was renamed.

I generally liked the Versus tone when mostly everybody was running around in normal clothes instead.

The Caelum family was mostly just wearing business suits, which i thought made them stand out more than the generic fantasy armor the final result ended up looking like.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I am sorry in that case. I would consider myself a feminist in 90% of ways, but i guess i can't really see that side of showing skin as an inherent negative symbol on my own.

One of the issues of not being able to really see certain perspectives i suppose.

In the majority of cases showing skin absolutely makes no sense within the context of what these characters are doing.

 

[Inuhanyou]

In the majority of cases showing skin absolutely makes no sense within the context of what these characters are doing.

That's true, that's why i don't like Cindy's design as a mechanic, and they make it very clear that she is nothing but said sex object, which makes me grit my teeth any time she is on screen.

In Aranea's case, a boob window on an otherwise covered outfit(outside of said midsection) feels pretty tame in my eyes especially considering the stylized unpractical nature of it. I also thought Luna's design was relatively fine on its own, if uninspired.

I had wished that they had not given iris a school girl esque outfit though. Would it kill them to give her an actual pear of pants? Its just a dumb archetype.

I get it okay? Its not necessarily the case that you have to be in school to wear a skirt, but its plainly obvious that that was what they were going for.

 

[Rainy]

I just beat Chapter 7 and is it bad that I didn't miss Gladio at all and wished Aranea was still in my party...

Spoiler

Also the boob window is fucking weird lmao

 

[Adaren]

I may have forgotten a scene, but I'm pretty sure that FFXV's Bechdel Test score ended up being

Spoiler

1, thanks to the pre-summoning scene with Luna and the Altissian politician.

.

What's most disappointing is that Luna and Gentiana feel like they should have more of a relationship than they do. They were commonly depicted together in promo art.

...but once we get to the actual game, they spend hardly any time with each other. I don't think they had a single conversation that wasn't about Noctis (and even if I'm forgetting a cutscene where they did, that doesn't really change the fact that the characters feel disconnected from one another). We never find out how (spoilers)

Spoiler

Gentiana feels about Luna's fate, and why she didn't try to intervene

or if

Spoiler

Luna knows Gentiana's true nature

.

The Bechdel Test isn't some end-all metric, but I think it highlights just how underdeveloped the "leading" ladies are. It's especially jarring coming off of the XIII trilogy, which, for all its faults, found a way to give the leading roles to females while still developing its male characters.

EDIT: I just noticed the gold lining on Gentiana's skirt...man, what a waste of a good character design.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Gentiana herself feels like a missed opportunity. She barely shows up in the game in general, and i thought she would be a pretty huge part of it considering how vague and mysterious they were being with her.

Despite being one of the Gods that is supposed to live amongst them and normally interact with human kind, how is it that she felt almost like a non entity in almost every way?

The only time she even mattered was when she froze Ardyn that one time, and while cool, she didn't think to help out any other time or help Noctis outside of fighting ifrit during the storyline sections?

She didn't think to help Luna at all when Ardyn was about even though she was able to summon Titan?

 

[Moral Panic]

My thoughts

Lunafreya Nox Fleuret:

I think the main problem is the idea that she is the "heroine" of the story. I firmly disagree and feel that is where most of the criticism comes from. FFXV is a story about Noctis and his friends, much like Jesus and his disciples in the Gospels. Yea, there may be women there who play a part in driving the story forwards but they are not central characters to the main message and should not be treated as such. The front cover doesn't have her, the whole road-trip aspect is missing her and she is never pushed to the forefront as a main character in the playing of the game for good reason. Using her sideplottiness as a criticism is silly, who exactly told you that she was an important character in the game?

I feel like this is best exemplified in a flashback in the early game, where we see Noctis and Luna as children, and she tells him that her duty in life is to help him as king.

And it is. But that doesn't necessarily weaken her because I feel she is sufficiently well characterised enough for us to understand the true context of this towards the end of the game. She takes up the mantel as Oracle in order to help Noctis to save the world, and does this with determination and vigor despite her brothers attempts to stop her and despite the fact that she knows it will kill her. I don't want to pretend that she is this great complex character who you really get to know, because she is not. But she is (especially compared to some of the other characters) a simple, well characterised female character. I don't like the idea that all female characters have to be like Ashe or Lightning with complex plots and who take a central role. She is a side character of which most of her true feats appear offscreen for plot reasons (The game wishes to hide the fact that Luna is the one who awoken Titan/Ramuh), but nonetheless we do know that she performed them and even more importantly WHY she performed them. Ravus and the Imperial leader were both candidates for big bad whilst I was playing the game/watching the film and yet can you really say that Luna is worse written than them? Or that the game treats her especially badly?

The thing that bums me out the most, as I mentioned before, is that Luna could have been so much more: for example, a shrewd, politically-minded figure, with no real physical power, but the ability to navigate complex situations using her wits and intuition

She isn't a great leader or political strategist and I resent the idea that a character has to be loaded up with tons of extraordinary qualities simply because they are female. Luna is a simple, normal, everyday person who has taken on an immense burden and is convinced that it is the correct thing to do. Why can't that be enough?

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's true, that's why i don't like Cindy's design as a mechanic, and they make it very clear that she is nothing but said sex object, which makes me grit my teeth any time she is on screen.

In Aranea's case, a boob window on an otherwise covered outfit(outside of said midsection) feels pretty tame in my eyes especially considering the stylized unpractical nature of it. I also thought Luna's design was relatively fine on its own, if uninspired.

I had wished that they had not given iris a school girl esque outfit though. Would it kill them to give her an actual pear of pants? Its just a dumb archetype.

I get it okay? Its not necessarily the case that you have to be in school to wear a skirt, but its plainly obvious that that was what they were going for.

Thing about it this way, Aranea is literally the only women in the empire. We got this guy:

No openings or weaknesses whatsoever, every single man is covered shoulders to toe with cloth/armor,:

and then there's Aranea:

the problem is that not only is her design impractical, it makes no sense within the context of what every other Niflheim commander is wearing. And it all has to do with the fact that she's a woman, so obviously she needs big breasts with armor perfectly shaped around them and an exposed midriff. That's the issue. The character designer's brain leaves the building when it comes to having a woman onscreen. Especially when it comes to female enemies.

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

Gentiana herself feels like a missed opportunity. She barely shows up in the game in general, and i thought she would be a pretty huge part of it considering how vague and mysterious they were being with her.

Despite being one of the Gods that is supposed to live amongst them and normally interact with human kind, how is it that she felt almost like a non entity in almost every way?

The only time she even mattered was when she froze Ardyn that one time, and while cool, she didn't think to help out any other time or help Noctis outside of fighting ifrit during the storyline sections?

She didn't think to help Luna at all when Ardyn was about even though she was able to summon Titan?

I share the same views and as a "fan" oh her during the hype train I really felt like these two would be opposites. Luna has the white theme going on and Gentiana has the dark theme going on. It really caught me off guard to see that Gentiana was

Spoiler

Shiva

because I always assumed she was going to be evil. Her build up to being a God was badly done. I just felt nothing in general for both characters given their shocking turn of events that happen. If anything, Gentiana was never a loyal attendant to Luna... hell I don't think there was a lot to Luna's trident like the promo art seemed to hint at. Truly disappointing.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Luna just exists. You can't claim she is not the heroine if Tabata himself implied she was that. This is especially concerning because she is on almost all major media and promotion for the game, from the dawn trailer, the omen trailer, kingsglaive and such, hell this is the launch spread of the game

https://squareportal.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/ffxv_noctis_luna_altissia_artwork_2.jpg?w=1765

 

[Crossing Eden]

My thoughts

Lunafreya Nox Fleuret:

I think the main problem is the idea that she is the "heroine" of the story. I firmly disagree and feel that is where most of the criticism comes from. FFXV is a story about Noctis and his friends, much like Jesus and his disciples in the Gospels. Yea, there may be women there who play a part in driving the story forwards but they are not central characters to the main message and should not be treated as such. The front cover doesn't have her, the whole road-trip aspect is missing her and she is never pushed to the forefront as a main character in the playing of the game for good reason. Using her sideplottiness as a criticism is silly, who exactly told you that she was an important character in the game?



And it is. But that doesn't necessarily weaken her because I feel she is sufficiently well characterised enough for us to understand the true context of this towards the end of the game. She takes up the mantel as Oracle in order to help Noctis to save the world, and does this with determination and vigor despite her brothers attempts to stop her and despite the fact that she knows it will kill her. I don't want to pretend that she is this great complex character who you really get to know, because she is not. But she is (especially compared to some of the other characters) a simple, well characterised female character. I don't like the idea that all female characters have to be like Ashe or Lightning with complex plots and who take a central role. She is a side character of which most of her true feats appear offscreen for plot reasons (The game wishes to hide the fact that Luna is the one who awoken Titan/Ramuh), but nonetheless we do know that she performed them and even more importantly WHY she performed them. Ravus and the Imperial leader were both candidates for big bad whilst I was playing the game/watching the film and yet can you really say that Luna is worse written than them? Or that the game treats her especially badly?



She isn't a great leader or political strategist and I resent the idea that a character has to be loaded up with tons of extraordinary qualities simply because they are female. Luna is a simple, normal, everyday person who has taken on an immense burden and is convinced that it is the correct thing to do. Why can't that be enough?

Not only have the devs repeated stated that Luna is supposed to be a strong modern female character, (she fails at even remotely coming close to that claim), but her entire plot is written around Noctis, she doesn't feel like an actual person. Like, at all. Literally her last scene in the game is a flashback of her crying about how badly she wants to bang Noctis. And since she doesn't feel like an actual character but a walking plot device, no one gives two shit about her fate or will care in the future nothing about her relationship with Noctis comes across as strong or modern. Literally the entire focus of the first 9 chapters is getting to Luna and because she's so incredibly shafted with little characterization and screen time the excuse is that she's supposed to be a side character? Also, what about her is everyday, simple or normal, she communicates via with Noctis via magical book in an era where everyone has a phone even after she's escaped from the empire.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Thing about it this way, Aranea is literally the only women in the empire. We got this guy:



the problem is that not only is her design impractical, it makes no sense within the context of what every other Niflheim commander is wearing. And it all has to do with the fact that she's a woman, so obviously she needs big breasts with armor perfectly shaped around them and an exposed midriff. That's the issue. The character designer's brain leaves the building when it comes to having a woman onscreen. Especially when it comes to female enemies.

While your correct, its also correct to note that there was more than one designer on this project. Roberto ferrari designed most of the original Versus outfits, but he left when 15 was created, and someone else worked on the redesigns for a lot of the characters in the game.

All of the kingsglaive outfits were from someone else entirely for example.

Although we saw grunts wearing armor in the original trailers, everyone else has since had a major design change to a more radical degree.

We can't really say for sure how much Aranea's design actually reflects the environment in which she was created as a concept.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

The females are just one of many missteps in this game. So much potential gone to near waste.

You can't help but compare Luna to Yuna. Then all the females to all the other ones from previous games.

Tragic.


The post mortem on this game is going to be interesting to read.

 

[Crossing Eden]

While your correct, its also correct to note that there was more than one designer on this project. Roberto ferrari designed most of the original Versus outfits, but he left when 15 was created, and someone else worked on the redesigns for a lot of the characters in the game.

All of the kingsglaive outfits were from someone else entirely for example.

Although we saw grunts wearing armor in the original trailers, everyone else has since had a major design change to a more radical degree.

We can't really say for sure how much Aranea's design actually reflects the environment in which she was created as a concept.

I think it's clear that no matter what she had to be sexualized to a ridiculous degree compared to every other male in Nilflheim because she's a woman.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I think it's clear that no matter what she had to be sexualized to a ridiculous degree compared to every other male in Nilflheim because she's a woman.

Point taken from that particular angle. But on the other hand, do we have any other confirmed male designs from ferrari besides the actual king of nifleheim? or any other women for that matter that may buck the trend araena has?

In the final game Arenea seems to be the only nifleheim female period and is essentially bucked by the designs of the other females in the game outside of shiva.

 

[Bladenic]

For all its faults, the XIII trilogy really was all about the girls. Lightning, Serah, Vanille, and Fang all were more important than the dudes, their lives didn't revolve around a man (Serah basically forgets Snow exists in XIII-2 lmao), and they're all independently capable. Hell I thought this carried over into gameplay as well as I thought Lightning/Fang/Vanille was the best post-game content party in XIII (Sazh and Snow were kinda terrible and Hope is the only one that had anything going for him).

 

[Inuhanyou]

Too bad Fang was the only one that was tolerable :l For all the strength lightning had acquired throughout the series it seemed as if she became less of a character throughout the trilogy, to the point where she just ended up being a dress up doll in LR.

Atleast in the first game she had some sort of character arc, as temper tantrum and punchy punchy as it got.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Too bad Fang was the only one that was tolerable :l For all the strength lightning had acquired throughout the series it seemed as if she became less of a character throughout the trilogy, to the point where she just ended up being a dress up doll in LR.

Atleast in the first game she had some sort of character arc, as temper tantrum and punchy punchy as it got.

Literally the plot of LR is that Square En- I mean "the goddess" made it so that she can't express emotion.

 

[UtterlyPerplexed]

Thank you for the full write-up and all the effort.

I note that you personally aren't too bothered by Aranea's design, which I imagine is offset by the fact that she's easily the most compelling female character of the whole lot, which I can agree with. But her outfit is too unfortunate for me to shrug at, because it really is very emblematic of a running problem with regards to the portrayal of female characters particularly in Japanese fiction. And it's not even because it's impractical. I distinctly remember her introductory cutscene just before the boss fight and the camera angle is shamelessly deliberate. Her cleavage window is practically the most well-lit centre point of the screen and her face is partially obscured by her wicker basket helmet. It was practically screaming "no, no, don't look at her face, look at her tits". They even made her introduction a juvenile exercise.

The best defences I have seen for Lunafreya come from good intentions, but good lord, talk about feeble. I understand that she has stayed true to a duty that she has accepted the burden of, despite frantic opposition from her only family left, in contrast to Noctis who had this terrible destiny thrust upon him. I understand that unlike Noctis, Luna has had to undertake her mission virtually alone. Or at least I think she does, because it's not like Gentiana seems to be of much on-screen help. I understand that she has significant importance to how the story plays out. But my god, she's a glorified plot device devoid of her own personality and a McGuffin postwoman. I'm still foggy as to what the covenants that are supposedly killing her even entail. She's not exactly summoning these gods. She's more like their alarm clock in the morning. Except it would be like every time your alarm clock goes off, the chances of it malfunctioning goes up by 25% each time.

And if it is true that they were going to throw in scenes of Luna being physically attacked, as well as scenes of her crying because of her health and fearful that she will let her man down...I don't even fully know what to say about that. None of them are scenes that would do anything to ameliorate just how awful she is, and if anything, just make it worse (and it's funny how even they recognised this) but leaving them on the cutting room just leaves us with this dull android we have. Perhaps had they have kept them you can frame it in a way that despite all this, Luna has overcome all adversity to become this headstrong...err, glorified Jesus slash divine alarm clock for Noctis's sake. Though I think if this was their vision for the character, at least have the balls to include them. Now you likely have idiots running around thinking those evil SJWs have gone and done it again with their censoring and shit.

 

[Ganon Dragmire]

how depressing.
even the female of the two dogs got screwed over in this game:

 

[Dice//]

I think it's clear that no matter what she had to be sexualized to a ridiculous degree compared to every other male in Nilflheim because she's a woman.

It's actually *really* hard to find a shot of her in "armor-undies" like the concept art here... did they change it to just pants in the game??

https://youtu.be/4e1p6xFwW1M?t=915

 

[HotHamBoy]

three out of 4 of Persona 5's female characters are wearing skintight suits and don't get me started on these poses

A few of those poses are definitely insulting. The very generic/lazy "boobs n butt" pose isnthe worst offender. I'm so tired of that shit popping up again and again even though it is something that has been critiqued to the point of becoming a joke.

The boob jiggle in the Ni No Kuni 2 trailer made me do a double take when I first watched it. It seems so out of place and unnecessary, it doesn't fit the tone of the game at all.

 

[RainForce]

True but it seems that even when there is one it always has something like Cindy in it. The Ni No Kuni 2 trailer had pointless impossible boob jiggle

three out of 4 of Persona 5's female characters are wearing skintight suits and don't get me started on these poses


Nier Automata has this character:

It's like damn can't we get a game without at least one example of this shit? ಠ_ಠ

None of these are AAA games.

 

[Dice//]

Thanks god she got pants though. The boob window is still too much, true.

I kinda don't mind it given the rest is covered up. Makes her still a little bit sexy (I'm pretty sure most girls have "that one top" that'd show about that much cleavage ). Cindy is the main problem, always has been and always will; but Aranea, Luna, and the others I really don't see much problems with their outfits (hell, I'd pay good money for a few of Luna's dresses!).

 

[SporeCrawler]

IRis>aranea>>>>>>>Luna

 

[Crossing Eden]

None of these are AAA games.

They all have big budgets compared to other Japanese games.

 

[Link1110]

Luna's character design screams one thing to me; that being "Nomura couldn't be bothered to design a new character, so he reused Namine."

 

[Zafir]

It's actually *really* hard to find a shot of her in "armor-undies" like the concept art here... did they change it to just pants in the game??

https://youtu.be/4e1p6xFwW1M?t=915

They changed her design slightly for release, yeah.

For the better, definitely.

Edit: If you look at an earlier trailer for VsXIII you can see her original design with "Armour panties"

https://youtu.be/9mTDTVlbmHk?t=1105

 

[sensui-tomo]

They all have big budgets compared to other Japanese games.

would like to see the receipts, especially on nier automata (hell the day yoko taro gets a good budget is the day SE did something right in the world, hell getting nier 2 after that travesty Drakengard 3 is a miracle in itself) and i'm going to assume you mean console game budgets?(just wondering because i could link you some mobile games that have bigger budgets with some good and tons of shit designs (granblue being top dog )

please note: I'm not defending the designs. I'm all for multiple outfits and outfits for the right climate (aka wearing heavy clothes in winter areas because frostbites are a thing... or have the group constantly make fun of the clothing choice ala "Its too hot. Then take of the jacket" )

 

[RainForce]

They all have big budgets compared to other Japanese games.

Sure, because the budget for most Japanese games these days is however much it costs to make a mobile game. These are mid-tier budget games, so A or AA at the highest.

Japanese AAA games in the last few years would be: Final Fantasy XV, Metal Gear Solid 5, and MAYBE Soulsborne games. That's literally it. In the near future, we got BoTW, Dragon Quest 11, and MAYBE Death Stranding.

Not to say they aren't AAA-quality titles. Persona 5 is a very strong contender for GOTG.

 

[Crossing Eden]

would like to see the receipts, especially on nier automata (hell the day yoko taro gets a good budget is the day SE did something right in the world, hell getting nier 2 after that travesty Drakengard 3 is a miracle in itself) and i'm going to assume you mean console game budgets?(just wondering because i could link you some mobile games that have bigger budgets with some good and tons of shit designs (granblue being top dog )

please note: I'm not defending the designs. I'm all for multiple outfits and outfits for the right climate (aka wearing heavy clothes in winter areas because frostbites are a thing... or have the group constantly make fun of the clothing choice ala "Its too hot. Then take of the jacket" )

Sure, because the budget for most Japanese games these days is however much it costs to make a mobile game. These are mid-tier budget games, so A or AA at the highest.

Japanese AAA games in the last few years would be: Final Fantasy XV, Metal Gear Solid 5, and MAYBE Soulsborne games. That's literally it. In the near future, we got BoTW, Dragon Quest 11, and MAYBE Death Stranding.

Not to say they aren't AAA-quality titles. Persona 5 is a very strong contender for GOTG.

A reminder that game development regardless of platform is really expensive. Monument Valley cost $4 million to make, mobile games aren't cheap either. Character animation like the kind you get in Ni No Kuni isn't cheap, the world and combat of Nier isn't cheap to develop, and RPG as long as Persona isn't cheap either. Add in large marketing budgets to the development cost, they're definitely triple A even if they're not as expensive as a game like Assassin's Creed.

 

[RainForce]

A reminder that game development regardless of platform is really expensive. Monument Valley cost $4 million to make, mobile games aren't cheap either. Character animation like the kind you get in Ni No Kuni isn't cheap, the world and combat of Nier isn't cheap to develop, and RPG as long as Persona isn't cheap either. Add in large marketing budgets to the development cost, they're definitely triple A even if they're not as expensive as a game like Assassin's Creed.

Do you know how the Japanese game development industry is? With a few exceptions, it's barely better than the anime industry, AKA people getting paid peanuts with even the CEOs taking a modest paycheck closer to their workers rather than the huge discrepancy of the western world. The work can be good, but that doesn't mean the budget is high. Every Platinum game is a budget title and Nier won't be any different. Same with both Ni No Kuni titles, even if 2 has a higher budget than the first one.

I could buy the argument for Persona though, especially with its constant delays and long dev cycle.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Do you know how the Japanese game development industry is? With a few exceptions, it's barely better than the anime industry, AKA people getting paid peanuts with even the CEOs taking a modest paycheck closer to their workers rather than the huge discrepancy of the western world. The work can be good, but that doesn't mean the budget is high. Every Platinum game is a budget title and Nier won't be any different. Same with both Ni No Kuni titles, even if 2 has a higher budget than the first one.

I could buy the argument for Persona though, especially with its constant delays and long dev cycle.

I think calling Platinum game's titles budget titles is selling them short given the scale of their two titles in development right now, Scalebound and Nier Automata. Although like their animation industry, it sucks that the devs are constantly getting shafted in terms of pay.

 

[RainForce]

I think calling Platinum game's titles budget titles is selling them short given the scale of their two titles in development right now, Scalebound and Nier Automata. Although like their animation industry, it sucks that the devs are constantly getting shafted in terms of pay.

I'm not using "budget title" as a pejorative here like it's normally used. Merely talking about how much they cost to make which is thanks to Japanese developers being grossly underpaid.

And yes, it does suck and is a big part of why some industries over there are eroding.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Literally the plot of LR is that Square En- I mean "the goddess" made it so that she can't express emotion.

:l that's what makes it stupid. They tried to include a dumbass plot device for Toriyama's creepy obsession while making the actual world and characters dumber. It was the same with FF13-2. The same lightning who said she'd never take orders from falcie and how she lived was up to her was suddenly some puppet of some random god because of time shenanigans that retconned the satisfactory ending of the first game.

 

[Ferr986]

Just want to point that Aranea is not from the Empire, she's a mercenary, the Empire just hires her, so that's why she has a different armor.

Still find the boob window unecessary.

I kinda don't mind it given the rest is covered up. Makes her still a little bit sexy (I'm pretty sure most girls have "that one top" that'd show about that much cleavage ). Cindy is the main problem, always has been and always will; but Aranea, Luna, and the others I really don't see much problems with their outfits (hell, I'd pay good money for a few of Luna's dresses!).

My problem with these things is that it just defeat the purpose of an armor. It wouldn't look as jarring if it was regular clothes and she legit want to look sexy (you could say like Gladio), but for a combat armor it just doesn't make sense to design it that way.

 

[EatinOlives]

The way FF games tend to stride the line between competently written female characters and generic waifus, they really can't afford to shove out games with half-baked stories, because when their female characters get the shaft the end result is some extra-shameful shit.

You can SORT of tell there's a strongly written Luna character among the heaping pile that was the story of the final product.

Spoiler

An "Oracle" who has to take it upon herself to look and sound like a flawless, perfect healer of the people as she has to accept the fact that her duty is slowly killing her and that this will only end in death, and doing it anyway does make for the basis of an interesting character. But with the minuscule screentime we got, all they can do is at least hammer home the Luna-Noctis relationship since that's what's driving much of the game's story. Which, by the way, is incredibly ham-fisted so it still doesn't feel believable. All you're left with is the skeleton of a character's plot beats. You get to see her healing ONE person, you get ONE scene where she confesses her inner turmoil, you get ONE scene of her public-figure persona, then she's hurried off to her death scene.

The lines are blurred between her just being a poorly written character and one whose characterization and moments were among the many, many, many things left on the cutting room floor. It's impossible to tell. Personally, I'm going with the latter. I think they were trying to thread the needle on writing a "princess" character with some interesting wrinkles but ended up botching the whole thing among the hysteria of finishing the game.

 

[pashmilla]

So what happened is this: you play the game then you get upset when you see all these beautiful women because they remind you how ugly you are and that you cant ever look like that or dress like that without people laughing at you so you get angry and talk about how unrealistic the beauty of these women is in a game about four dudes fighting monsters with magical swords, look, straight guys who is the majority of people buying games likes to see beautiful women in revealing clothes in there games thats just a fact, the only people who dont like that is ugly insecure women, gay men and shemales and beta cucks who hate being men, and those groups are a small percentage of the people who are buying the game so companies will continue to have flawless beautiful women in there games unless all men suddenly stopped caring about beautiful women Which will never happen because god created men like this, its in there nature so you cant do anything about it.

Wow! I am obviously an ugly insecure woman. The "God created men like this" part is particularly fun, I don't think I've heard that one before.

Edit: the comments on part 5 are amazing. http://feminismandfinalfantasy.blog...ice-xv-or-ffxv-has-woman_18.html?m=1#comments

Did someone post this on Reddit or something?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Just want to point that Aranea is not from the Empire, she's a mercenary, the Empire just hires her, so that's why she has a different armor.

Still find the boob window unecessary.

The design is goofy for sure, but yeah. She's clearly got a different aesthetic to her armor than the Niflheim people which have some similarities in their ostentatiousness.

 

[staticneuron]

Thing about it this way, Aranea is literally the only women in the empire. We got this guy:

No openings or weaknesses whatsoever, every single man is covered shoulders to toe with cloth/armor,:


and then there's Aranea:


the problem is that not only is her design impractical, it makes no sense within the context of what every other Niflheim commander is wearing. And it all has to do with the fact that she's a woman, so obviously she needs big breasts with armor perfectly shaped around them and an exposed midriff. That's the issue. The character designer's brain leaves the building when it comes to having a woman onscreen. Especially when it comes to female enemies.

I think it's clear that no matter what she had to be sexualized to a ridiculous degree compared to every other male in Nilflheim because she's a woman.

Not sure if I should wade into this because people seem to have thier mind set and already project a point of view but I would like to point out. That Arenea looks different because she is a merc, she is not apart of the empire hence what goes down in the first fight, that you are referencing. She is dressed as a dragoon, none of the other male "commanders" are one. Her fighting style is less about straightforward fighting and more about Arial attacks. Her odd armor design could be due to her special attacks which are unique and very powerful. Also to mention Ravus doesn't even have armor on top half of body, that is a mechanical arm the rest is like cloth and leather. But I mean you did post this as well

Not only have the devs repeated stated that Luna is supposed to be a strong modern female character, (she fails at even remotely coming close to that claim), but her entire plot is written around Noctis, she doesn't feel like an actual person. Like, at all. Literally her last scene in the game is a flashback of her crying about how badly she wants to bang Noctis. And since she doesn't feel like an actual character but a walking plot device, no one gives two shit about her fate or will care in the future nothing about her relationship with Noctis comes across as strong or modern. Literally the entire focus of the first 9 chapters is getting to Luna and because she's so incredibly shafted with little characterization and screen time the excuse is that she's supposed to be a side character? Also, what about her is everyday, simple or normal, she communicates via with Noctis via magical book in an era where everyone has a phone even after she's escaped from the empire.

1. Crying about how bad she wants to bang noctis? I think that speaks for itself.

2. No one cares? Except for members of the party, and the many voiced NPC that discuss just that on the mainland and Altissa, or the people gathered to see the weeding dress she will no longer wear.

3. Who outside of the main denizens of Insomnia walk around with cell phones? Notice how your car and tech in the car is unique? It is because insomnia had tech secured away behind the wall for a long time. Cidney bluntly tells you about this and that is why you have to go on elaborate missions to upgrade care because the parts and tech are NOT common. I was wondering the same thing, but then it makes sense that no one else outside of City has one. You talk to Cor, and the main 4 have cell phones but for everyone else (quests, hunts or other tasks) you never communicate over phone, you have to meet them somewhere.


Luna as a strong character, is basically shown by her journey which we only get glimpses of. She goes on her mission "alone" and she does so knowing that it may kill her and she has the choice to walk away at any time but chooses not to. Her strength of character is shown by her actions and resolve. She is the only one who can be the oracle and puts her life at risk to get that done. Just because she isn't wearing armor or swinging/shooting a gun doesn't mean that she is weak.


As far as Cidney goes, I agree her design is questionable, but Cidney is also... the only one who upgrades your car and unlike want is stated in the post Cidney provides you with airship not Cid. Cid is to old to work on your vehicle so he upgrades your weapons and has one story based mission where he drives you somewhere. Cidney is more important for taking care of your vehicle/airship than Cid is which is a change because Cid is normally the one who provides you with the airship in FF and the took that away from him in this entry.

To be honest though, talking about most of the characters in this game outside of the main four really shows that there is lack of characterization, but not because the other characters are not important or weak. It is because the story has a very "strong" point of view. The story rarely focuses on anyone else outside of strong interaction with the main characters. Meaning things happen in the world around them and you aren't whisked away to a different camera or put in the shoes of someone else, you get the news from the perspective of the group at the time. From what happens to Insomnia, to tenebrae and what happens in empire. For luna and limited interaction via book, you are following in footsteps and only know what is happened before due to Noctis interaction with the Astrals. You only witness first hand what happens at Altissa.

Problem with the complaints about this particular game (in a series that has had stronger female characters them most other series I can think of) is that the it is based off of assumptions about designs and ignores the storytelling method and the point of the story telling method.

Wow! I am obviously an ugly insecure woman. The "God created men like this" part is particularly fun, I don't think I've heard that one before.

Edit: the comments on part 5 are amazing. http://feminismandfinalfantasy.blog...ice-xv-or-ffxv-has-woman_18.html?m=1#comments

Did someone post this on Reddit or something?

The comments are horrible. But one of of them is correct on pointing out a skewed perspective. You even mention this in your post.

as I've said, failures with regards to its characters is far from exclusive to female characters (Cor and Ravus... We Hardly Knew Ye. I don't want to talk about Iedolas, it hurts my soul). However, when it comes to the female characters, this narrative shafting sticks out all the more because of how invisible the female characters are in the first place

Which is even false because at least Cindy, Iris and Aranea, have more time on screen and more depth than Cor and Ravus. And the other females you interact with like Holly (the manager of the lestellums power plant), and even Sania (scientist researching frogs) get more screen time than Iedolas Aldercapt. Again this is not due though to not liking characters or having respect for them it is just that story telling method ties you strongly to the main group so there is no method of fleshing out characters more than their interaction with the group. And that applies to every character outside of the main four male or female. Actually more so on specific named males as you have shown.

 

[PtM]

Another thing that drives me absolutely nutso is the way that the characters will talk about women in banter. Prompto saying he can't choose between Cindy and Aranea. Gladio when walking around Lestallum exclaiming, "Damn, the women here are built!" and Prompto randomly blurting, "Sultry..." It's just gross. Ick, ick, ick, get it away.

Sounds like a SFV thread.

UGHHHH.

I hated that sequence, it was such a "bro" sequence in all the wrong ways. Just about superficial qualities instead of interior qualities.

DOUBLE UGH.

Look, I can understand an argument for wanting a real "bro" trip where the primary (permanent) party members are all guys. But Aranea and Iris join the party without disrupting any kind of camaraderie, and there's no reason that A) they couldn't be around longer B) be around more often and C) included a guest appearance with Luna rather than fridging her and trying to make me give a shit.

But see, they couldn't talk about girls in their manly ways!

A comment left on my Cindy post. Can... can someone translate this into actual people words? I gather they think I'm slutshaming but aside from that I'm lost.

A mix of "it's their own free will if you believe hard enough" and "it's realistic/technically possible attire, so your criticism is targeting real women as well".

Part 4!

Seeing Luna's profile render, I'm reminded of how much she looks like a child.

As far as Ni no Kuni 2 goes to be fair, the boob jiggle pretty subtle and doesn't affect much. Persona 5 does have multiple costumes you can use for each character, and they are generally in their school outfits, those are their 'special' outfits.

If it were subtle, then people wouldn't notice it. Most notorious boob physics tend to overdo it by doing more than one full swing. It would look a lot better if her breasts swung just as much as her hair ends.

Luna just exists. You can't claim she is not the heroine if Tabata himself implied she was that. This is especially concerning because she is on almost all major media and promotion for the game, from the dawn trailer, the omen trailer, kingsglaive and such, hell this is the launch spread of the game

Of course you can. One is expectations, the other one perception.

Wow! I am obviously an ugly insecure woman. The "God created men like this" part is particularly fun, I don't think I've heard that one before.

Pretty sure it's on the bingo card.

 

[Ferr986]

3. Who outside of the main denizens of Insomnia walk around with cell phones? Notice how your car and tech in the car is unique? It is because insomnia had tech secured away behind the wall for a long time. Cidney bluntly tells you about this and that is why you have to go on elaborate missions to upgrade care because the parts and tech are NOT common. I was wondering the same thing, but then it makes sense that no one else outside of City has one. You talk to Cor, and the main 4 have cell phones but for everyone else (quests, hunts or other tasks) you never communicate over phone, you have to meet them somewhere.

To be fair Cindy does have a phone, same as Cid. Both call you to your smartphone while in some quests (weapon upgrading, for example). We could argue Luna doesn't because she got exiled with nothing, as seen in Kingsglaive. It is true that Cindy complains about tech being hard to obtain outside Insomnia too, as seen with the car quests.
I would just say this is just messy writing, they wanted to reflect the tech blocked in Insomnia notion yet giving smartphones when needed to NPCs for gameplay purposes.

About that last Luna scene, my problem is not the scene itself but how unveliable the relationship is. It's hard to take seriously Luna's feelings toward Noctis when she probably has never seen him since kids. If the relationship was more well done that scene would probably be better for some. But that's just another can of worms.

Wow! I am obviously an ugly insecure woman. The "God created men like this" part is particularly fun, I don't think I've heard that one before.

Edit: the comments on part 5 are amazing. http://feminismandfinalfantasy.blog...ice-xv-or-ffxv-has-woman_18.html?m=1#comments

Did someone post this on Reddit or something?

That's disgusting. Honestly, as a man, I would feel offended if someone says "you're a perv because God made you that way you can't just help it".
It was probably some lurker, I guess.

 

[Contica]

My main issue with the critique here is that it feels very one dimensional.

If one of the female characters doesn't get a full story, it sounds like that is somehow because she is a woman.

You forget that every single character in this gets shafted by the story. Nothing is fully developed, nothing gets explained. The story is so unfinished and full of holes that every single person is an under developed plot device.

Luna sees more development during the few scenes we see her than pretty much all of Noctis' friends!

I mean, I get you react and all. But don't kid yourselves. The characters in this game are such open books that I could project my own ideas to every single one.

As for the outfits. Sure, I get it. But I can't say I care much. I enjoy the kind of sexy escapism styles like this provides. I like sexy, be it male or female, sue me.

 

[PtM]

You forget that every single character in this gets shafted by the story

Nope, she does not.

 

[Contica]

Another thing that drives me absolutely nutso is the way that the characters will talk about women in banter. Prompto saying he can't choose between Cindy and Aranea. Gladio when walking around Lestallum exclaiming, "Damn, the women here are built!" and Prompto randomly blurting, "Sultry..." It's just gross. Ick, ick, ick, get it away.

It's guy talk. Sorry, but it is. Guys talk about girls. Doesn't mean their dicks. Doesn't mean they think they own them. They just do. Cause they like girls.

I think you read too much into it.

Prompto sounds completely innocent to me. He's like the kid who easily gets a crush on someone and gets confused and doesn't know who he really likes. It's not like he thinks he has an actual shot, and has ownership over them.

 

[staticneuron]

To be fair Cindy does have a phone, same as Cid. Both call you to your smartphone while in some quests (weapon upgrading, for example). We could argue Luna doesn't because she got exiled with nothing, as seen in Kingsglaive. It is true that Cindy complains about tech being hard to obtain outside Insomnia too, as seen with the car quests.
I would just say this is just messy writing, they wanted to reflect the tech blocked in Insomnia notion yet giving smartphones when needed to NPCs for gameplay purposes.

About that last Luna scene, my problem is not the scene itself but how unveliable the relationship is. It's hard to take seriously Luna's feelings toward Noctis when she probably has never seen him since kids. If the relationship was more well done that scene would probably be better for some. But that's just another can of worms.

Cid was a member of Insomnia and Also traveled with Regis, putting him in a position of privilege. The group were sent to seek him out. And Regis was always trying to reconnect given Cid's discussion about not returning to City. That is not messy, it has an explanation in lore. If you were to receive a phone call from Sania or Dave that would be odd. A call from Weskham is even more likely than any other regular inhabitant that has no direct connection to insomnia.

It's guy talk. Sorry, but it is. Guys talk about girls. Doesn't mean their dicks. Doesn't mean they think they own them. They just do. Cause they like girls.

I think you read too much into it.

Prompto sounds completely innocent to me. He's like the kid who easily gets a crush on someone and gets confused and doesn't know who he really likes. It's not like he thinks he has an actual shot, and has ownership over them.

On that point, out of over 100 hours I spent on the game and all the banter of the characters, those stick out because that is like two out of the five interactions I recall them having about women. Which if you think about it is is so rare, that you have to be reaching. They are only memorable because most of them are jokes on Prompto. Another two basically are the guys telling Prompto he has no chance with Cindy. And the other was when Gladio went away, and Noctis joked about Gladio is off dating some women while they are trudging through the swamp just to rile Prompto up.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I kinda don't mind it given the rest is covered up. Makes her still a little bit sexy (I'm pretty sure most girls have "that one top" that'd show about that much cleavage ). Cindy is the main problem, always has been and always will; but Aranea, Luna, and the others I really don't see much problems with their outfits (hell, I'd pay good money for a few of Luna's dresses!).

Stella's dress was designed by ROEN so it might be available in real life... I don't know if Luna's is though.

 

[Contica]

Nope.

Tell me who didn't. I liked the ending, but no question got a good answer.

 

[Ferr986]

Cid was a member of Insomnia and Also traveled with Regis, putting him in a position of privilege. The group were sent to seek him out. And Regis was always trying to reconnect given Cid's discussion about not returning to City. That is not messy, it has an explanation in lore. If you were to receive a phone call from Sania or Dave that would be odd. A call from Weskham is even more likely than any other regular inhabitant that has no direct connection to insomnia.

Ah yes, this is true, forgot about Cid relationship with Regis. Funny because I even finished Kings Tale lol But yeah you're right.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Just want to point that Aranea is not from the Empire, she's a mercenary, the Empire just hires her, so that's why she has a different armor.

Still find the boob window unecessary.

Ardyn not's from the empire either, yet again, covered head to toe with cloth and armor.

Not sure if I should wade into this because people seem to have thier mind set and already project a point of view but I would like to point out. That Arenea looks different because she is a merc, she is not apart of the empire hence what goes down in the first fight, that you are referencing. She is dressed as a dragoon, none of the other male "commanders" are one. Her fighting style is less about straightforward fighting and more about Arial attacks. Her odd armor design could be due to her special attacks which are unique and very powerful. Also to mention Ravus doesn't even have armor on top half of body, that is a mechanical arm the rest is like cloth and leather. But I mean you did post this as well

None of her attacks require boob shaped armor and her midriff to be exposed, as someone who's designed characters before nothing every requires those two things. The problem isn't that she looks different, it's that she looks different because she's the only woman.

1. Crying about how bad she wants to bang noctis? I think that speaks for itself.

Yes, crying about how much she wants to be with Noctis, her entire plot and character is written as an accessory to Noctis and it's pathetic that this is Tabata's idea of a "strong modern woman."

2. No one cares? Except for members of the party, and the many voiced NPC that discuss just that on the mainland and Altissa, or the people gathered to see the weeding dress she will no longer wear.

And people gathered to watch Padme's funeral while Darth Vader screamed Noooooooo, doesn't mean the audience cares if the game does a terrible job of making us care.

3. Who outside of the main denizens of Insomnia walk around with cell phones? Notice how your car and tech in the car is unique? It is because insomnia had tech secured away behind the wall for a long time. Cidney bluntly tells you about this and that is why you have to go on elaborate missions to upgrade care because the parts and tech are NOT common. I was wondering the same thing, but then it makes sense that no one else outside of City has one. You talk to Cor, and the main 4 have cell phones but for everyone else (quests, hunts or other tasks) you never communicate over phone, you have to meet them somewhere.

Tons of people call you after you complete a quest. Cindy being the first one.

Luna as a strong character, is basically shown by her journey which we only get glimpses of.

It's really not, she gets literally two scenes that don't involve Noctis in anyway shape or form. She's not a strong character just because she has a "strong-will" or whatever anime schlock Japanese creators come up with to justify their terrible female leads having no agency and being moving plot points.

As far as Cidney goes, I agree her design is questionable, but Cidney is also... the only one who upgrades your car and unlike want is stated in the post Cidney provides you with airship not Cid.

So what, she's still a terrible cringe-worthy example of fanservice, "oh but she fixes your car." Note they literally advertised VR with gawking at Cindy as the incentive, made her a car skin, and literally last week SE advertised her figurine, without showing her face at all, but instead a closeup of her tits. It's problematic at best and incredibly demeaning at worst that the first female Cid character is relegated to a pornstar body and nonsensical design with a really bad southern accent that no one else has.

Cid is to old to work on your vehicle so he upgrades your weapons and has one story based mission where he drives you somewhere. Cidney is more important for taking care of your vehicle/airship than Cid is which is a change because Cid is normally the one who provides you with the airship in FF and the took that away from him in this entry.

When is Cindy even seen outside of Hammerhead?

To be honest though, talking about most of the characters in this game outside of the main four really shows that there is lack of characterization, but not because the other characters are not important or weak. It is because the story has a very "strong" point of view. The story rarely focuses on anyone else outside of strong interaction with the main characters.

It's because the game ran out of money.

Meaning things happen in the world around them and you aren't whisked away to a different camera or put in the shoes of someone else, you get the news from the perspective of the group at the time.

The camera wrestles away from the main cast to showcase other characters doing things multiple times, they're literally patching in more cutscenes in the second half of the game in order to do this more.

From what happens to Insomnia, to tenebrae and what happens in empire.

They're literally patching in more scenes to make the story flow better so that you do see shit that happened in those event,s in fact they've already done so already by patching in Kingsglaive clips with the day 1 patch.

Problem with the complaints about this particular game (in a series that has had stronger female characters them most other series I can think of) is that the it is based off of assumptions about designs and ignores the storytelling method and the point of the story telling method.

The problem with people defending it is that the excuses are flimsy at best, "she has no agency because well she's the oracle and has a strong will and the writing is bad because the devs intentionally left out a shit ton of cutscenes that they're patching in"