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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters |2.0| This isn't even my final form

LordKasual

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...Uhhh???

Can't agree with the vast majority of topics covered here, sounds like rotten cherry picking to me. It's as if people took Cindy and copy-pasted her over every other woman in the game, which is funny because outside of her outfit Cindy isn't even a bad character.

Also can't agree with pretending like the bro-talk present in FFXV is degrading in any way. This is simply how guys talk around eachother, and women definitely do the same shit in any real-life situation where XV's gender composition is reversed. And what's funny is that XV's brotalk is actually quite tame.

And I am super confused by a feminist article on XV that completely excludes the fact that the only 2 major cities in the game are literally run by women. This had to have been impossible for a feminist to miss so I don't understand why it wasn't even mentioned. And a review of the plot that calls Luna a "plot device" and Gentiana "ultimately irrelevant" is a headscratcher by itself.


Some people just have grossly impossible expectations for things, but that didn't even read like a conflict of expectations. It was just unfair.
 

sensui-tomo

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...Uhhh???

Can't agree with the vast majority of topics covered here, sounds like rotten cherry picking to me. It's as if people took Cindy and copy-pasted her over every other woman in the game, which is funny because outside of her outfit Cindy isn't even a bad character.

Also can't agree with pretending like the bro-talk present in FFXV is degrading in any way. This is simply how guys talk around eachother, and women definitely do the same shit in any real-life situation where XV's gender composition is reversed. And what's funny is that XV's brotalk is actually quite tame.

And I am super confused by a feminist article on XV that completely excludes the fact that the only 2 major cities in the game are literally run by women. This had to have been impossible for a feminist to miss so I don't understand why it wasn't even mentioned. And a review of the plot that calls Luna a "plot device" and Gentiana "ultimately irrelevant" is a headscratcher by itself.


Some people just have grossly impossible expectations for things, but that didn't even read like a conflict of expectations. It was just unfair.

luna has less plot than 90% of the sexy character trope characters from the tales games. Thats not good for a "strong female character" (not your words) in a final fantasy. Hell freya from 9 has more developement/ relevance to the plot than luna does. and freya is useless to the story after the first disk and begining of disk 2.
 

KTO

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Which is the bigger step backwards in terms of female representation, XV or X-2?
 

pashmilla

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Which is the bigger step backwards in terms of female representation, XV or X-2?

At least X-2 had relevant and complex (well, kind of) female characters and was very much a "you go girl!" story despite the fanservice. XV has... none of that.
 

Crossing Eden

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Which is the bigger step backwards in terms of female representation, XV or X-2?
XV undoubtedly as it has all the bad character design tropes ON TOP of the women being given very little screentime and agency. X-2 is nothing to write home about, but hey, at least we aren't getting a sequel where Luna is alive or some shit, Square's character designers go full sexism with how they design female protagonist whenever a FF game gets a sequel.
 

sensui-tomo

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XV undoubtedly as it has all the bad character design tropes ON TOP of the women being given very little screentime and agency. X-2 is nothing to write home about, but hey, at least we aren't getting a sequel where Luna is alive or some shit, Square's character designers go full sexism with how they design female protagonist whenever a FF game gets a sequel.

Was FF4 The after years just as bad? I never played that title so i wouldnt know, (otherwise we have x-2 and the shitty 13 trilogy for examples... and possibly Tactics advance games which were meh (in comparison to WOTL)
 

LordKasual

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luna has less plot than 90% of the sexy character trope characters from the tales games. Thats not good for a "strong female character" (not your words) in a final fantasy. Hell freya from 9 has more developement/ relevance to the plot than luna does. and freya is useless to the story after the first disk and begining of disk 2.

Nothing that anyone around here uses as criticism of Luna actually strips the title of "strong female character" from her, at all. You're comparing Luna to characters that aren't even comparable to her. Freya is supposed to have had more development than Luna, Freya was a playable main character and was in the party for the majority of the game. There hasn't really been a character like Luna in a previous FF game because there hasn't been a main cast of characters like XV has had.

I haven't heard anyone post any real argument that shows how Luna was, in fact, not strong and actually a bad representation of a woman. It's just a bunch of people talking about how they wanted her to be more than she was for the sake of the story.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting that. It's just...there's nothing wrong with the way Luna was protrayed. The game was not about her. Just like it wasn't about Regis, Cor, Gentiana, Loki, ect.

XV undoubtedly as it has all the bad character design tropes ON TOP of the women being given very little screentime and agency. X-2 is nothing to write home about, but hey, at least we aren't getting a sequel where Luna is alive or some shit, Square's character designers go full sexism with how they design female protagonist whenever a FF game gets a sequel.

This is just flat-out false. This is so false in fact that I don't even know how you got to typing it.

Name one female character in this game with a lack of agency. And before you bother mentioning Luna i'm gonna stop you and note that she literally had no more or less "agency" than Noctis did. She got shit done despite lacking the ability to summon weapons out of thin air and with no entourage of defenders.
 

Crossing Eden

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Was FF4 The after years just as bad? I never played that title so i wouldnt know, (otherwise we have x-2 and the shitty 13 trilogy for examples... and possibly Tactics advance games which were meh (in comparison to WOTL)
Was talking about the 3D games.

Nothing that anyone around here uses as criticism of Luna actually strips the title of "strong female character" from her, at all. You're comparing Luna to characters that aren't even comparable to her. Freya is supposed to have had more development than Luna, Freya was a playable main character and was in the party for the majority of the game. There hasn't really been a character like Luna in a previous FF game because there hasn't been a main cast of characters like XV has had.

I haven't heard anyone post any real argument that shows how Luna was, in fact, not strong and actually a bad representation of a woman. It's just a bunch of people talking about how they wanted her to be more than she was for the sake of the story.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting that. It's just...there's nothing wrong with the way Luna was protrayed. The game was not about her. Just like it wasn't about Regis, Cor, Gentiana, Loki, ect.
You want me to start with the part where's she's a damsel in distress for the vast majority of Kingsglaive and a walking plot device written solely around Noctis? And then getting fridged for the sole purpose of Noctis, and then it's ok, the blonde trophy wife is in the afterlife with Noctis. There's plenty wrong with how she's portrayed. She's a weak forgettable excuse for a character that no one will remember 10 years from now especially not in a positive light as Japan gets left behind more and more by the west in terms of female representation. Noctis is allowed to express emotion and feel conflicted about his goals, but Luna is solely written as completely ok with giving her life for this dude she hasn't seen in ten years, TOTES a strong modern woman.
 

Adaren

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And I am super confused by a feminist article on XV that completely excludes the fact that the only 2 major cities in the game are literally run by women.

I'll agree with you on Camelia and Altissa. That was a nice (albeit minor) touch.

But Lestallum is so weird. It's mentioned that all of the power plant workers are women...but why? Like, how did it get that way? Is the local government entirely made up of women? Are men viewed as lesser? Do the women like working all of the hard, stessful jobs? Why don't they wear shirts under their hazmat suits?

If Lestallum had any actual characters to give some perspective on wtf was going on, then I would have an opinion on it. As it is, it's just a really weird footnote on the city, and there's really no discussion to be had about it because we don't know anything about it.
 

pashmilla

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I'll agree with you on Camelia and Altissa. That was a nice (albeit minor) touch.

But Lestallum is so weird. It's mentioned that all the women are the ones who work in the power plant...but why? Like, how did it get that way? Is the local government entirely made up of women? How do they feel about that? Are men viewed as lesser? Do the women like working all of the hard, stessful jobs? Why don't they wear shirts under their hazmat suits?

If Lestallum had any actual characters to give some perspective on wtf was going on, then I would have an opinion on it. As it is, it's just a really weird footnote on the city, and there's really no discussion to be had about it because we don't know anything about it.

Yeah I forgot to mention Not!Hillary but I did touch on Lestallum and how honestly baffling it is. Like you say, it's given no explanation, so it's kind of just... there. Like, okay? Good? But why and how? Why is the entire female population dressed like Cindy? What is happening here?
 

Ferr986

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Ardyn not's from the empire either, yet again, covered head to toe with cloth and armor.

Yeah I know, never disagreed with your argument about her clothing. As you can see I too dislike her random cleavage.

And I am super confused by a feminist article on XV that completely excludes the fact that the only 2 major cities in the game are literally run by women. This had to have been impossible for a feminist to miss so I don't understand why it wasn't even mentioned.

I think the problem is how they dress more than what they do.
 

orthodoxy1095

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Ardyn not's from the empire either, yet again, covered head to toe with cloth and armor.
In fairness, I wouldn't exactly call Ardyn's design one that I want to emulate. The man is a walking fashion disaster of mismatched textiles.
Which is the bigger step backwards in terms of female representation, XV or X-2?
X-2 had fans service out the ass, but at least it tried to do something meaningful with the female characters.

I'd say XV was the bigger step back.
 

Jennipeg

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Was talking about the 3D games.


You want me to start with the part where's she's a damsel in distress for the vast majority of Kingsglaive and a walking plot device written solely around Noctis? And then getting fridged for the sole purpose of Noctis, and then it's ok, the blonde trophy wife is in the afterlife with Noctis. There's plenty wrong with how she's portrayed. She's a weak forgettable excuse for a character that no one will remember 10 years from now especially not in a positive light as Japan gets left behind more and more by the west in terms of female representation. Noctis is allowed to express emotion and feel conflicted about his goals, but Luna is solely written as completely ok with giving her life for this dude she hasn't seen in ten years, TOTES a strong modern woman.

Apparently none of that counts.

BIB: Pretty much my assessment.

I don't think female's have to be 'strong' physically, or even emotionally. They can be weak, they just have to be well written. And Luna is not. She is barely a character at all, yet there she is in all of the promo, set up like the heroine of the game.
 

sensui-tomo

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Apparently none of that counts.

BIB: Pretty much my assessment.

I don't think female's have to be 'strong' physically, or even emotionally. They can be weak, they just have to be well written. And Luna is not. She is barely a character at all, yet there she is in all of the promo, set up like the heroine of the game.

isnt that on that gaming side bingo card we have? (that particular one needs to go because of the double sided dagger it stands to be ) sorry for being Off topic.

Huh? Asking for a well written female character is on a bingo card?

asking for a well written lgbt character is and we've seen asshats say "Its alright if they're written good" as a way to dismiss characters in games.
Again it was off topic and i just hate the bingo card i've seen brought up many times before (not by you of course since i dont think i've even seen you post that card) and i agree that she's a poorly written character.
 

rubius01

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Was talking about the 3D games.


You want me to start with the part where's she's a damsel in distress for the vast majority of Kingsglaive and a walking plot device written solely around Noctis? And then getting fridged for the sole purpose of Noctis, and then it's ok, the blonde trophy wife is in the afterlife with Noctis. There's plenty wrong with how she's portrayed. She's a weak forgettable excuse for a character that no one will remember 10 years from now especially not in a positive light as Japan gets left behind more and more by the west in terms of female representation. Noctis is allowed to express emotion and feel conflicted about his goals, but Luna is solely written as completely ok with giving her life for this dude she hasn't seen in ten years, TOTES a strong modern woman.

Oh no. She will be infamously remembered as to how horrible a character she is. She will be compared with people's delusional fantasies of Stella.

Luna's main issue is that there's really nothing there besides the medieval expectations that the woman's only reason to exist is to please the husband.
 

Crossing Eden

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In fairness, I wouldn't exactly call Ardyn's design one that I want to emulate. The man is a walking fashion disaster of mismatched textiles.

X-2 had fans service out the ass, but at least it tried to do something meaningful with the female characters.

I'd say XV was the bigger step back.
True.
 

Jennipeg

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isnt that on that gaming side bingo card we have? (that particular one needs to go because of the double sided dagger it stands to be ) sorry for being Off topic.

Huh? Asking for a well written female character is on a bingo card? When I say they can be weak, I mean they can have huge flaws and character weaknesses like normal human beings. Some people are weak, some people are shitty, that's human nature.
 

orthodoxy1095

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isnt that on that gaming side bingo card we have? (that particular one needs to go because of the double sided dagger it stands to be ) sorry for being Off topic.
It is indeed on the Bingo Card, and while I understand why it's there, I think it's actually somewhat of an outlier there. As fun as that bingo card is, and while I get that it exists because people got tired of the same old rhetoric, I do think there are things we have to be willing to dissect and hash out.

I think the issue with writing sometimes comes down to just a matter of effort. We shouldn't want to bar all games from social issues unless they can somehow be perfect in their writing. That's an onus and silly burden. Because I think at the end of the day what a lot of people would like to see is the developers just trying. At least for myself, I can forgive your game for falling flat on its face if it at least tries something.

And I don't think the FFXV team really "got it" when things came to women in games, and I don't feel there's really an obvious effort to do something impressive with a female character. She feels like a half-assed version of better characters that have already been done.
 

dramatis

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My main issue with the critique here is that it feels very one dimensional.

If one of the female characters doesn't get a full story, it sounds like that is somehow because she is a woman.

You forget that every single character in this gets shafted by the story. Nothing is fully developed, nothing gets explained. The story is so unfinished and full of holes that every single person is an under developed plot device.

Luna sees more development during the few scenes we see her than pretty much all of Noctis' friends!
The problem with this assessment is that male characters are more represented overall in video games. They get a lot more fair shots than female characters do. I also don't think you can argue that being female had nothing to do with how the female characters were shafted. Cindy is the obvious one in how her design and role were solely due to her physical appearance as a piece of meat. Aranea, if you compare her design to the other male villain characters, you cannot deny that she was designed with the intent to be eyecandy too. Iris and Luna are written with the intent to 'service' the main male character and the envisioned male player, through romancing or cheap sacrifice.

Even with poor writing, we can tell where female characters fall even shorter.

I kinda don't mind it given the rest is covered up. Makes her still a little bit sexy (I'm pretty sure most girls have "that one top" that'd show about that much cleavage :p). Cindy is the main problem, always has been and always will; but Aranea, Luna, and the others I really don't see much problems with their outfits (hell, I'd pay good money for a few of Luna's dresses!).
It's not wholly a case of sexualization through the physical appearance. The primary problem with Luna's appearance is that it's intended to embody a particular, stereotypical female character: the pure princess, with an emphasis on purity. All the white dresses, along blonde hair, blue eyes, delicate frame—clearly paint an ideal of a woman that is kind, willing to give her everything to the male character, is beautiful, and unstained for the male player/character to take as a wife.

In short, when looking at Luna what her design, with the boring white dress, signifies is a perfect bride that submits her whole to men. The "simple but pretty" dress is exactly that: good enough, but neither stylish nor flashy, therefore not drawing attention.

If Luna rolled out dressed like this instead, she'd have more 'character' in the visual design. And the clothing is much more appealing.
But of course. The kind of perfect bride female stereotype that Japan or the west would make would never be a black woman.
 

LordKasual

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You want me to start with the part where's she's a damsel in distress for the vast majority of Kingsglaive and a walking plot device written solely around Noctis? And then getting fridged for the sole purpose of Noctis, and then it's ok, the blonde trophy wife is in the afterlife with Noctis. There's plenty wrong with how she's portrayed. She's a weak forgettable excuse for a character that no one will remember 10 years from now especially not in a positive light as Japan gets left behind more and more by the west in terms of female representation.

Damsel in distress =/= Woman in danger. Luna could have easily sat around waiting for someone to save her, she didn't.

Every major character in the game was written around Noctis, including his 3 friends and Regis. To anyone who has actually beaten it, this should have been obvious? I understand that males typically get more representation by default, but FFS is that really a fair grounds for judging every female character ever when they aren't obviously written specifically to subvert this issue?

Luna got "fridged for Noctis", just like Aerith "got fridged for Cloud".

...or Burmecia got sacked "for Freya". Garnet begins the game being literally stolen by the womanizer Zidane, who then proceeds to grab her ass at random points in the story. Also, Beatrix existed solely for Steiner and built all her character development around his presence. Quistis existed only for the world to see how great a leader Squall was. Let's also not forget how FF8 was LITERALLY a 40-hour witch hunt! Oh I almost forgot Yuna, the woman with no agency whatsoever, bending helplessly to the wants of male-driven Yu Yevon and Tidus' irresistible charm, the only thing to sway her from her duty...before Tidus takes the limelight entirely. Yunalesca was a revered female summoner who just so happened to be an undead villain in disguise, what a waste. Or how Tifa literally fell to her knees and just couldnt go on when her lover caught mako poisoning, she existed solely to go into his mind and get sliced by Sephiroth, empowering the male lead to do awesome shit or whatever.

^ This is really easy to do, by the way. I hear alot of complaining but it's like everyone just clenches to one criticism and stretches it as thin as it can go. I can understand Luna needing more screentime, that's fine. I can understand Cindy's outfit is asinine, that's valid criticism, absolutely.

But why do people here feel so compelled to argue in binary? Why is there never a grey area with anything? It makes it so hard to agree with any actual valid point when it's surrounded with all this other nonsense.


An article about female representation in FFXV that either glazes over (our outright omits) Lestallum and Accordio are poorly researched articles at best. I can understand attempting to downplay it, whatever fine. But omission? Come on.


I'll agree with you on Camelia and Altissa. That was a nice (albeit minor) touch.

But Lestallum is so weird. It's mentioned that all of the power plant workers are women...but why? Like, how did it get that way? Is the local government entirely made up of women? Are men viewed as lesser? Do the women like working all of the hard, stessful jobs? Why don't they wear shirts under their hazmat suits?

If Lestallum had any actual characters to give some perspective on wtf was going on, then I would have an opinion on it. As it is, it's just a really weird footnote on the city, and there's really no discussion to be had about it because we don't know anything about it.

It's never explained how it got that way, but does it really matter? It's a town where all the heavy lifting is done by women. And it 's not as if it's a trade-off, either, because there are plenty of women hunters within the ranks in Eos too. Nor does this fact exist in a vacuum within the story, there's a reoccuring NPC dialogue between 2 men that directly mentions "my wife got a promotion" and "it makes me feel smaller". Some of the women did have full shirts under their suits, but their skin showing shouldn't even be that surprising considering most tropes where there's some metalworking plant / mining town / whatever, the guys are walking around shirtless and ripped with pickaxes thrown over their shoulders.

Footnote or not, they did it, and people in these arguments rarely want to bring it up for some reason unless they're going to mention the fact that they have midriff showing at night when they walk around.
 
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It's just...there's nothing wrong with the way Luna was protrayed. The game was not about her. Just like it wasn't about Regis, Cor, Gentiana, Loki, ect.

This is the Lunafreya that Square Enix's own marketing hyped up as a unique kind of heroine, right? The same Lunafreya that was hyped up as the heroine of the story? I certainly don't remember people like Gentiana and Loqi being given this much reverence when it comes to the key visual art and how front and centre Luna was. So it baffles me that she still feels like such a footnote character.

I don't understand how you can look at Luna and think she was adequately portrayed. So what if she ultimately has a purpose to the story if you can glean virtually nothing about who she is as a person beyond how committed and brave she is to her mission and what the people of Eos think of her? Let's really sit down and give her characterisation some thought based on what the game tells and shows us. Oh, she likes flowers, said some kid in Tenebrae. Yay. That's what a girl likes, right? Ooh ooh, she also likes stickers. How riveting. And she was also very excited to get married and when her dress arrived, because what young woman wouldn't feel ecstatic to be betrothed to her dreamy prince, even though the two have only known each other as children? Wow, that tells us so much about her! I can go on at great length to describe her rich character so thoroughly.

Oh wait, no I can't. She's a shell. She's a pure, virginal bride steadfast in her duty and unsubtly symbolised by how much white she wears. Her character can only be summed up by how much this mission means to Noctis and what she can do to ensure that her man gets the gods he needs. And when she's not doing that, it's still Noctis Noctis Noctis, because her last spoken dialogue occurs in a flashback where she's tearing up over not being able to be with him. How about we actually explore her thoughts more comprehensively? Her dreams besides of Noctis, her personal regrets, introspection, more of her confiding with Gentiana, more of what her work as a healer means to her, her personal appraisals of her life, a closer look at her relationship with her brother? An insight into her personal thoughts about Noctis as a person? Anything? Something to add actual meat to an otherwise bland and flavourless bone?

This is our heroine. A pure, virginal, trophy wife McGuffin.
 

Via Purifico

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Yeah, nothing about Luna stands out at all in the visual or narrative department. I feel like they didn't really try compared to Gentiana who has a more original design than her.

We can't pull the "well the game isn't about her anyway" to excuse her shitty portrayal in both the game and in Kingsglaive.

Tabata hyped her up to be something that she wasn't, even those who never cared about Stella were disappointed so you can't use that card either.
 

Jennipeg

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Damsel in distress =/= Woman in danger. Luna could have easily sat around waiting for someone to save her, she didn't.

Every major character in the game was written around Noctis, including his 3 friends and Regis. To anyone who has actually beaten it, this should have been obvious? I understand that males typically get more representation by default, but FFS is that really a fair grounds for judging every female character ever when they aren't obviously written specifically to subvert this issue?

Luna got "fridged for Noctis", just like Aerith "got fridged for Cloud".

...or Burmecia got sacked "for Freya". Garnet begins the game being literally stolen by the womanizer Zidane, who then proceeds to grab her ass at random points in the story. Also, Beatrix existed solely for Steiner and built all her character development around his presence. Quistis existed only for the world to see how great a leader Squall was. Let's also not forget how FF8 was LITERALLY a 40-hour witch hunt! Oh I almost forgot Yuna, the woman with no agency whatsoever, bending helplessly to the wants of male-driven Yu Yevon and Tidus' irresistible charm, the only thing to sway her from her duty...before Tidus takes the limelight entirely. Yunalesca was a revered female summoner who just so happened to be an undead villain in disguise, what a waste. Or how Tifa literally fell to her knees and just couldnt go on when her lover caught mako poisoning, she existed solely to go into his mind and get sliced by Sephiroth, empowering the male lead to do awesome shit or whatever.

^ This is really easy to do, by the way. I hear alot of complaining but it's like everyone just clenches to one criticism and stretches it as thin as it can go. I can understand Luna needing more screentime, that's fine. I can understand Cindy's outfit is asinine, that's valid criticism, absolutely.

But why do people here feel so compelled to argue in binary? Why is there never a grey area with anything? It makes it so hard to agree with any actual valid point when it's surrounded with all this other nonsense.

I wouldn't say it is that easy to do, because with all the women you mention, there are paragraphs worth of character development to counter your point. There really isn't for Luna. You are the one saying it's not fair to compare them so i'm not sure what point you are really hoping to make.

On a side note, i'd say Beatrix existed for Garnet, and Garnet ran away. She was never kidnapped. That's just the start.
 

Harmen

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My opinion on the main female characters (who are barely main characters due to the barebones plot outside of the main crew interactions):

I feel Cindy would've been received much, much better with a more appropriate top and a more subtle accent. I think her dialogue and characterization are likable. I was actually a bit disappointed when I found out she
was not at Hammerhead in Ch. 14.
.

In regards to Areana, she was a bit too "anime" for me when she was introduced, but in the end I do think the direction they took with her was interesting
her randomly helping the guys out and being at the forefront of the resistance against the deamon plague
. Unfortunately, almost nothing of that potential was used.

I didn't like Luna at all. Not in the film and especially not in the game.

Iris was also a bit too anime for me and a weak character. Though her introduction is by far the worst part of her. That
walk trough the city
made me cringe quite a bit. I recall they mention she
eventually became a badass in Ch. 14 but we never see it
 

HeelPower

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Can't believe they had the Gall to market this.

If I were them I'd shut up about it and just admit that I am regressing to simple minded treatment of women or just not talk about it at all.

They deserve harsh criticism because they went out of their way to lie about Luna.
 

Adaren

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In the abstract, I actually like the idea of a female character who has so much faith / love that it lets her stand strong against overwhelming odds, and that that same faith / love ultimately leads to her downfall.

The catastrophic failure comes in the execution. Not enough impact, not enough introspection. Not enough dialogue where people question her choices and she defends them. Combo that with Luna shouldering the burden of being the lone female who the game is willing to push as a primary character.

You had twelve years to talk some sense into that girl, Gentiana. Mess.

---

(spoilers on the nature of Chapter 14, nothing specific)

On an unrelated note: the lack of Cindy post-
timeskip
is extremely egregious. It doesn't make any sense for her to not show up there.

I don't want to necessarily cry sexism on this one, since it's no secret that the game's development was a hot mess. At the same time, I can't help but notice that the game's reluctance to
age
its female eyecandy. The final ending scene is also an example of that. You can come up with a convenient "in-universe" excuse, but it doesn't change the fact that these were decisions for the scene that people made.

I mean, the game goes through the reintroducing Talcott. I'm not sure why they didn't just have Cindy show up in his place instead. We can only speculate as to their reasoning.
 

Jennipeg

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May 6, 2013
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Can't believe they had the Gall to market this.

If I were them I'd shut up about it and just admit that I am regressing to simple minded treatment of women or just not talk about it at all.

They deserve harsh criticism because they went out of their way to lie about Luna.

They marketed her as the heroine of this game, which I feel invites us to compare her to past characters. Something that only highlights how insubstantial she is.
 

LordKasual

Banned
Jul 28, 2016
5,702
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This is the Lunafreya that Square Enix's own marketing hyped up as a unique kind of heroine, right? The same Lunafreya that was hyped up as the heroine of the story?

I certainly don't remember people like Gentiana and Loqi being given this much reverence when it comes to the key visual art and how front and centre Luna was. So it baffles me that she still feels like such a footnote character.

Uh....no??

Where's this Lunafreya hype trailer i've been missing? Did I miss her dedicated brotherhood series? Was Omen trailer secretly about Luna? Did they hint that she was playable at some point? Did one particular trailer have more Luna footage than any other? She wasn't even on the cover when I bought the game....

But UNIQUE?

Yes, Lunafreya was absolutely a unique AND strong woman of a character in FFXV. She's immediately unique in that she's integral to the story of the game, deeply ingrained in the conflict of the game, but isn't given any super convenient outs that allow her to join up with the team of trained magical knights and escape all her chains unscathed.
I don't understand how you can look at Luna and think she was adequately portrayed. So what if she ultimately has a purpose to the story if you can glean virtually nothing about who she is as a person beyond how committed and brave she is to her mission and what the people of Eos think of her? Let's really sit down and give her characterisation some thought based on what the game tells and shows us. Oh, she likes flowers, said some kid in Tenebrae. Yay. That's what a girl likes, right? Ooh ooh, she also likes stickers. How riveting. And she was also very excited to get married and when her dress arrived, because what young woman wouldn't feel ecstatic to be betrothed to her dreamy prince, even though the two have only known each other as children? Wow, that tells us so much about her! I can go on at great length to describe her rich character so thoroughly.

Now go ahead and do that for any other character in the game that isn't Noct, Gladio, Prompto, Ignis or Ardyn, and get back to me. You're describing an overall issue with the game that pretty much everyone has, not a pinpointed sat strike on Luna because she's a woman.

Oh wait, no I can't. She's a shell. She's a pure, virginal bride steadfast in her duty and unsubtly symbolised by how much white she wears. Her character can only be summed up by how much this mission means to Noctis and what she can do to ensure that her man gets the gods he needs. And when she's not doing that, it's still Noctis Noctis Noctis, because her last spoken dialogue occurs in a flashback where she's tearing up over not being able to be with him. How about we actually explore her thoughts more comprehensively? Her dreams besides of Noctis, her personal regrets, introspection, more of her confiding with Gentiana, more of what her work as a healer means to her, her personal appraisals of her life, a closer look at her relationship with her brother? An insight into her personal thoughts about Noctis as a person? Anything? Something to add actual meat to an otherwise bland and flavourless bone?

This would be excellent, but I personally believe we got more than enough to piece together some form of personality for Luna. Just because she isn't particularly exciting or interesting doesn't mean she isn't a character. It just means she isn't what you wanted her to be, which is unfortunate. But it doesn't necessarily make her shallow, either.


This is our heroine. A pure, virginal, trophy wife McGuffin.

If you choose to describe her in the most cynical way possible, then yeah sure.

I wouldn't say it is that easy to do, because with all the women you mention, there are paragraphs worth of character development to counter your point. There really isn't for Luna. You are the one saying it's not fair to compare them so i'm not sure what point you are really hoping to make.

On a side note, i'd say Beatrix existed for Garnet, and Garnet ran away. She was never kidnapped. That's just the start.

It was extremely easy to do.

Because all i did was ignore every other fact about Freya/Beatrix/Garnet/Yuna that i knew, and just wrote the most negative and cynical analysis of the character based on that.
 

APZonerunner

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...or Burmecia got sacked "for Freya". Garnet begins the game being literally stolen by the womanizer Zidane, who then proceeds to grab her ass at random points in the story. Also, Beatrix existed solely for Steiner and built all her character development around his presence. Quistis existed only for the world to see how great a leader Squall was. Let's also not forget how FF8 was LITERALLY a 40-hour witch hunt! Oh I almost forgot Yuna, the woman with no agency whatsoever, bending helplessly to the wants of male-driven Yu Yevon and Tidus' irresistible charm, the only thing to sway her from her duty...before Tidus takes the limelight entirely. Yunalesca was a revered female summoner who just so happened to be an undead villain in disguise, what a waste. Or how Tifa literally fell to her knees and just couldnt go on when her lover caught mako poisoning, she existed solely to go into his mind and get sliced by Sephiroth, empowering the male lead to do awesome shit or whatever.

The Beatrix comparison is particularly nuts, to be honest. I mean:

"Beatrix existed solely for Steiner and built all her character development around his presence," just isn't true at all. Beatrix is shown to be terribly dedicated to her duty and clearly doesn't like Steiner very much at all initially. She's not even interested in talking to him - which tells you a great deal about both him and her. She's in command of the main Alexandrian army, and Steiner's knights are a much smaller unit. They're shown throughout the intro to be incompetent, with Steiner a well-meaning but none too successful commander of a band of idiots who vaguely represent each previous FF entry based on their numbering. Beatrix's troops, meanwhile, are incredibly adept and trusted to guard the queen herself.

A lot of this is more subtle storytelling, but it's all important: her characterisation isn't for Steiner, but it's for HER. This characterisation is also what sets her up to be a particularly formidable foe at the end of the fist disc and then again later on.

Through a combination of writing, dialogue and even combat the game teaches you that she is some serious shit, she's powerful, she's dedicated to her country and her position, etc. It's not top-level character work, but it's very strong for a member of the supporting cast.

The most important stuff for Beatrix doesn't happen in Steiner's presence, either: It always happens for her when she's alone with the Queen, more or less (so, two women! shocker) as the Queen's actions are increasingly questionable to her and her incredible loyalty slowly begins to waver. When it breaks it is in Steiner's presence, but that's not the point, and he again isn't the important inflection point of that scene and her decision to change sides - it's all about the Queen, Garnet and herself (three women! dun dun dunnnnn) and the others present, like Steiner and Zidane, are tertiary to the whole thing because it's already been proven Beatrix can kick their asses.

Beatrix doesn't change paths because she's in love with Steiner, but because her sworn oath is to protect both Garnet AND Brahne, but when one is trying to kill the other she is forced to take a side. The game cleverly keeps Garnet out of the equation for Beatrix until then, too - she's never around when you fight her prior. That's all about her, and the character built up for her. Her decision is the one that matters. This groundwork is laid early on, with cutscenes featuring just Brahne and Beatrix aboard the Red Rose that are nothing but the two of them; words and character motivation bouncing off each other. Steiner is never a consideration.

Sure enough the Beatrix and Steiner love affair is some pretty cliche stuff, but by the time you reach the point where that begins to pan out with Eiko's stolen letter she's already been well-established as a strong character in her own right.

Incidentally, the woman with the best arc in FF15 is arguably Aranea, and her arc is identical to Beatrix's pre-Steiner except - like so much of FF15 - her wavering and doubting is left off-screen (though we do get her briefly discussing it in ambient dungeon dialogue) - but the arc itself is still pretty decent. No doubt it would've been better still if we'd had some stuff like cut-away scenes where Aranea appears alongside Loqi or Ardyn or even the Emperor and begins to figure out in front of us she's on the wrong side before she confesses as much to the bros. Luna, meanwhile... gosh - Luna has less an arc and more of a straight line, and it's a straight line that goes straight into the grave. That, incidentally, is also what makes her so much worse than Aerith, who like Beatrix is well-defined in advance.

The points about Quistis and stuff are similarly mad but I'd be here all day if I went in and addressed all of them. I just wanted to address one really in-depth to prove how utterly insane this string of points is.
 

Jennipeg

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May 6, 2013
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It was extremely easy to do.

Because all i did was ignore every other fact about Freya/Beatrix/Garnet/Yuna that i knew, and just wrote the most negative and cynical analysis of the character based on that.

I'm trying to say that you didn't make your point well (sorry!) because all of the women you name can be staunchly defended in ways Luna can't. See the reply below.

The Beatrix comparison is particularly nuts, to be honest. I mean:

"Beatrix existed solely for Steiner and built all her character development around his presence," just isn't true at all. Beatrix is shown to be terribly dedicated to her duty and clearly doesn't like Steiner very much at all initially. She's not even interested in talking to him - which tells you a great deal about both him and her. She's in command of the main Alexandrian army, and Steiner's knights are a much smaller unit. They're shown throughout the intro to be incompetent, with Steiner a well-meaning but none too successful commander of a band of idiots who vaguely represent each previous FF entry based on their numbering. Beatrix's troops, meanwhile, are incredibly adept and trusted to guard the queen herself.

A lot of this is more subtle storytelling, but it's all important: her characterisation isn't for Steiner, but it's for HER. This characterisation is also what sets her up to be a particularly formidable foe at the end of the fist disc and then again later on.

Through a combination of writing, dialogue and even combat the game teaches you that she is some serious shit, she's powerful, she's dedicated to her country and her position, etc. It's not top-level character work, but it's very strong for a member of the supporting cast.

The most important stuff for Beatrix doesn't happen in Steiner's presence, either: It always happens for her when she's alone with the Queen, more or less (so, two women! shocker) as the Queen's actions are increasingly questionable to her and her incredible loyalty slowly begins to waver. When it breaks it is in Steiner's presence, but that's not the point, and he again isn't the important inflection point of that scene and her decision to change sides - it's all about the Queen, Garnet and herself (three women! dun dun dunnnnn) and the others present, like Steiner and Zidane, are tertiary to the whole thing because it's already been proven Beatrix can kick their asses. Her decision is the one that matters. This groundwork is laid early on, with cutscenes featuring just Brahne and Beatrix aboard the Red Rose that are nothing but the two of them; words and character motivation bouncing off each other. Steiner is never a consideration.

Sure enough the Beatrix and Steiner love affair is some pretty cliche stuff, but by the time you reach the point where that begins to pan out with Eiko's stolen letter she's already been well-established as a strong character in her own right.

Incidentally, the woman with the best arc in FF15 is arguably Aranea, and her arc is identical to Beatrix's pre-Steiner except - like so much of FF15 - her wavering and doubting is left off-screen (though we do get her briefly discussing it in ambient dungeon dialogue) - but the arc itself is still pretty decent. Luna has less an arc and more of a straight line, and it's a straight line that goes straight into the grave, which is also what makes her so much worse than Aerith, who like Beatrix is well-defined in advance.

The points about Quistis and stuff are similarly mad but I'd be here all day if I went in and addressed all of them. I just wanted to address one really in-depth to prove how utterly insane this string of points is.

You've just made me want to replay IX!
 

LordKasual

Banned
Jul 28, 2016
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The points about Quistis and stuff are similarly mad but I'd be here all day if I went in and addressed all of them. I just wanted to address one really in-depth to prove how utterly insane this string of points is.

Yeah, I know. That was the point. How easy it is for me to shit on a character when I want the character to be shit. And i could counter all your other points about Beatrix with equally shallow "facts" about how poorly she was represented. But how effective I am at that really shouldn't be the takeaway here.

There are tons of subtle points about Luna's relationship with Regis, Noctis, Nifelhiem, Ravus, the Astrals and her duty as Oracle that make it easy to see how she ended up with the personality and tunnel-vision drive that she had. There are alot of complex relationships and interactions happening between the events of Tenebrae's subjugation and Chapter 9 to take into consideration, and yeah, it's a shame they weren't explored in-depth within the scope of the game itself.

All i'm saying is, people are willfully ignoring the traits of the character we were given, but then decide to give the most face value, shallow, unfair analysis of her just because she isn't the power fantasy woman they built in their minds of her. The reasons i'm hearing that Luna is a "bad female character" are just so broadly unfair that I don't see how someone with that opinion can like even the other females in the series.


And this desire for her to be terrible is so strong that people in here are imprinting things that didn't like about her onto other female characters in the story and it doesn't even make sense.
 

APZonerunner

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Yeah, I know. That was the point. How easy it is for me to shit on a character when I want the character to be shit. And i could counter all your other points about Beatrix with equally shallow "facts" about how poorly she was represented. But how effective I am at that really shouldn't be the takeaway here.

There are tons of subtle points about Luna's relationship with Regis, Noctis, Nifelhiem, Ravus, the Astrals and her duty as Oracle that make it easy to see how she ended up with the personality and tunnel-vision drive that she had. There are alot of complex relationships and interactions happening between the events of Tenebrae's subjugation and Chapter 9 to take into consideration, and yeah, it's a shame they weren't explored in-depth within the scope of the game itself.

All i'm saying is, people are willfully ignoring the traits of the character we were given, but then decide to give the most face value, shallow, unfair analysis of her just because she isn't the power fantasy woman they built in their minds of her.

And this desire for her to be terrible is so strong that people in here are imprinting things that didn't like about her onto other female characters in the story and it doesn't even make sense.

It takes a lot of jumping through hoops and blinkered vision to make someone like Beatrix or Quistis look shit though, as you've just proved. It really ain't so tough for Luna.

C-could it be... that Luna actually... isn't very well written?? Is that why it's so easy to reduce her to basic, awful, vaguely demeaning building blocks? Because she's not much beyond that? I'll let you decide

But the answer is yes
 

Via Purifico

Banned
Jun 14, 2007
4,981
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Uh....no??

Where's this Lunafreya hype trailer i've been missing? Did I miss her dedicated brotherhood series? Was Omen trailer secretly about Luna? Did they hint that she was playable at some point? Did one particular trailer have more Luna footage than any other? She wasn't even on the cover when I bought the game....


But UNIQUE?

Yes, Lunafreya was absolutely a unique AND strong woman of a character in FFXV. She's immediately unique in that she's integral to the story of the game, deeply ingrained in the conflict of the game, but isn't given any super convenient outs that allow her to join up with the team of trained magical knights and escape all her chains unscathed.


Now go ahead and do that for any other character in the game that isn't Noct, Gladio, Prompto, Ignis or Ardyn, and get back to me. You're describing an overall issue with the game that pretty much everyone has, not a pinpointed sat strike on Luna because she's a woman.



This would be excellent, but I personally believe we got more than enough to piece together some form of personality for Luna. Just because she isn't particularly exciting or interesting doesn't mean she isn't a character. It just means she isn't what you wanted her to be, which is unfortunate. But it doesn't necessarily make her shallow, either.




If you choose to describe her in the most cynical way possible, then yeah sure.



It was extremely easy to do.

Because all i did was ignore every other fact about Freya/Beatrix/Garnet/Yuna that i knew, and just wrote the most negative and cynical analysis of the character based on that.

Have you been asleep during promotion for the game? she was just as marketed as the bros. And I think you're trying to project some narrative on that poster when they never said anything about her being playable just a good heroine that the team themselves hyped her to be.

The argument isn't asking her to be a badass but how her whole existence for the little time she was in the game revolved around Noctis and getting the ring to him, even the childhood scenes revolved around Noctis.

We know she's an oracle we know she loves Noctis and wanted to get the ring to him but that's pretty much all we got until she got
stabbed
it's fine if you like the character but it feels like you're intently missing the point cause it doesn't agree with your stance.
 

pashmilla

Banned
Aug 22, 2014
1,671
0
0
Well the game was conceived over a decade ago, so it's not surprising it has 2006 ideals. I hope XVI handles this issue, but it doesn't make XV less of a game to me.

But FFXII released in 2006 and that has some of the best female characters in the series. So did X and IX and VIII... I think it's very much a Tabata problem overall.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
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Damsel in distress =/= Woman in danger. Luna could have easily sat around waiting for someone to save her, she didn't.
Literally one of the plot points of Kingsglaive is that she gets captured and has to wait around for a team solely consisted of men to come save her.

Every major character in the game was written around Noctis, including his 3 friends and Regis.
And yet they have personalities that don't have anything to do with Noctis, they actually conflict, have hobbies, etc.

To anyone who has actually beaten it, this should have been obvious? I understand that males typically get more representation by default, but FFS is that really a fair grounds for judging every female character ever when they aren't obviously written specifically to subvert this issue?
Yes. Especially because the default situation shouldn't be that males get more representation as a rule. Even more so when the creators say shit like "she's a strong modern woman." There's nothing to relate to when it comes to Luna for any woman.


Luna got "fridged for Noctis", just like Aerith "got fridged for Cloud"


...or Burmecia got sacked "for Freya". Garnet begins the game being literally stolen by the womanizer Zidane, who then proceeds to grab her ass at random points in the story. Also, Beatrix existed solely for Steiner and built all her character development around his presence. Quistis existed only for the world to see how great a leader Squall was. Let's also not forget how FF8 was LITERALLY a 40-hour witch hunt! Oh I almost forgot Yuna, the woman with no agency whatsoever, bending helplessly to the wants of male-driven Yu Yevon and Tidus' irresistible charm, the only thing to sway her from her duty...before Tidus takes the limelight entirely. Yunalesca was a revered female summoner who just so happened to be an undead villain in disguise, what a waste. Or how Tifa literally fell to her knees and just couldnt go on when her lover caught mako poisoning, she existed solely to go into his mind and get sliced by Sephiroth, empowering the male lead to do awesome shit or whatever.
It's almost like Standards are different than they were in the past, at least Aerith was an actual character, especially when a dev is trying so hard to sell a character as something worth praising when she's honestly a plot device who gets fridged. She's barely a character, that's an issue in and of itself, but she pushed a gun out of her face once, wow so strong /s

This is really easy to do, by the way.
You're basically just showing me that this series hasn't really improved or had a super good track record when it comes to female characters and in fact seems to be regressing considering that the heroine of this one is barely a character. The last heroine got turned into a dress up doll by the end of her trilogy and the plot was literally that she couldn't feel emotion and for some reason her breast size increased. Doesn't help that you're being incredibly disengenous with your comparisons.

But why do people here feel so compelled to argue in binary? Why is there never a grey area with anything? It makes it so hard to agree with any actual valid point when it's surrounded with all this other nonsense.
Because with Luna it's pretty clearcut based on the words of the devs themselves, there's no grey area because there's no nuance to her portrayal.

An article about female representation in FFXV that either glazes over (our outright omits) Lestallum and Accordio are poorly researched articles at best. I can understand attempting to downplay it, whatever fine. But omission? Come on.
It's five different blog entries, Lestallum and Accordio were talked about in one of the entries.

It's never explained how it got that way, but does it really matter?
Yes. The game goes out of it's way to explain why there's a titan with a meteor but somehow a town run solely by women is something that isn't worth mentioning.
 
Feb 17, 2013
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Where's this Lunafreya hype trailer i've been missing? Did I miss her dedicated brotherhood series? Was Omen trailer secretly about Luna? Did they hint that she was playable at some point? Did one particular trailer have more Luna footage than any other? She wasn't even on the cover when I bought the game....

Hey, that's what this tweet practically says:



And let's not forget this.

Code:
[IMG]https://abload.de/img/ffxv_keyartwblru.jpg[/IMG]

I don't mean this in any sarcastic or malicious way at all when I say that I'm glad you pieced enough about Luna from the game to think she's adequately portrayed. I personally haven't and it's left me especially frustrated because she was touted as such; the game had the nerve to try and elicit some kind of genuine emotional reaction from me when
they inevitably off her for the sake of advancing the narrative and when they pull off the fairytale afterlife ending
; and they easily could have done so much more with her. No, they didn't have to turn Luna into some badass warrior princess all of a sudden. I was actually okay with her lack of martial prowess and I generally laugh at the retorts from some people (not necessarily you) claiming that critics of Luna are dissatisfied because she isn't wrestling behemoths.

By the way, I was thinking about Attack of the Clones the other day for some reason and I had this horrible mental image of George Lucas in charge of FFXV's script. It would have been Noctis and Luna sneaking off around Altissia on a gondola, rolling down hills by one of the waterfalls, eating a CG pear and Noctis in full creeper mode trying to feel Luna up while she changes into increasingly more revealing and S&M outfits. Suddenly I feel a little glad that the game doesn't bother to give them a single romantic scene in a city visually based on one of the most considerably romantic cities in the world. :/
 

PtM

Banned
Jan 7, 2015
6,127
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405
Tell me who didn't. I liked the ending, but no question got a good answer.
Bad wording on my part. pashmilla does address the overall lack of characterisation for NPCs, is what I wanted to say.
As for the outfits. Sure, I get it. But I can't say I care much. I enjoy the kind of sexy escapism styles like this provides. I like sexy, be it male or female, sue me.
Oh, btw, this is just some bingo bullshit, as if good characters couldn't be sexy, unless you're claiming that everything else has to make room for your liking of sexy.
But FFXII released in 2006 and that has some of the best female characters in the series. So did X and IX and VIII... I think it's very much a Tabata problem overall.
It's as if they presume a certain shift in the public perception caused by fairly recent events. Hmmmmm............
 

LordKasual

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Jul 28, 2016
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Literally one of the plot points of Kingsglaive is that she gets captured and has to wait around for a team solely consisted of men to come save her.

As opposed to pulling magic swords out her ass and killing all of her oppressors herself?

Everything she did is peanuts in the face of the shining man knights (-s) who saved her. And she's a shitty female character because her city was subjugated when she was like 14. Gotcha.

And yet they have personalities that don't have anything to do with Noctis, they actually conflict, have hobbies, etc.

Luna's duty wasn't to Noctis, it was to Eos. And I wasn't aware Luna didn't have any conflict, thanks for that. That really brings to light how silly it was that she didn't have ample time to practice juggling and crack jokes when she, Ravus and Gentiana had time to spare.

Fucking nobody in the game except the 4 bros have any deep foundation to their personalities. And the only characters whos "hobbies" i managed to gleam were Iris, Talcott and Cindy. (But Cindy doesn't count because her real hobby is being a sex doll for the player.)

Yes. Especially because the default situation shouldn't be that males get more representation as a rule. Even more so when the creators say shit like "she's a strong modern woman." There's nothing to relate to when it comes to Luna for any woman.

...wow.

First off, the answer is NO, women characters are not obligated to be trope subversions unless the trope itself is just inherently bad, and even those aren't off limits because fantasy is derived from reality and reality is a flawed thing. That would just make them another trope in itself, a fake representation of progress. You aren't asking for characters, you're asking for every writer on earth to stroke your fantasy. There are DIRECT subversions within XV that prove that Square isn't oblivious to this. And it just makes it even more egregious how people completely ignore them so easily just to rag on Cindy and Luna every chance they get.

Second...if you think Luna's situation has no parallels for any real women on the real Earth, then now i'm actually confused about where you're even coming from when you say her character is badly written. What exactly is so unrelatable about Luna as a woman that makes her so terrible? Genuinely curious.

It's almost like Standards are different than they were in the past, at least Aerith was an actual character, especially when a dev is trying so hard to sell a character as something worth praising when she's honestly a plot device who gets fridged. She's barely a character, that's an issue in and of itself, but she pushed a gun out of her face once, wow so strong /s

You're basically just showing me that this series hasn't really improved or had a good track record when it comes to female characters and in fact seems to be regressing considering that the heroine of this one is barely a character. And being incredibly disengenous with your comparisons.

As many people have pointed out already...none of those characters were as insultingly shallow as I made them out to be. What I'm showing is just how easy it is to make a female character become a "bad female character" when it's convenient for me personally to make her one.

...Just how it was easy for you to basically agree with me wholesale and use it as ammo to feed the idea that Square's progress with women has been entirely regressive.

See, easy.

Because with Luna it's pretty clearcut based on the words of the devs themselves, there's no grey area because there's no nuance to her portrayal.

I guess i'm just going to have to take your word for that.

It's five different blog entries, Lestallum and Accordio were talked about in one of the entries.
I'll go read them, and get back to you. But with regards to how the first one I read went, i'm not expecting a particularly in-depth analysis.

Yes. The game goes out of it's way to explain why there's a titan with a meteor but somehow a town run solely by women is something that isn't worth mentioning.

So...a Titan holding a meteor (that came from nowhere) in a fantasy game is more believable than women running a fantasy town in a fantasy game???? This sounds oddly familiar to a different kind of criticism.

What...kind of explanation are you looking for? Does it need to be a particularly good one?

Is it that unbelievable???? I guess we really do have alot of work ahead of us, huh.
 

pashmilla

Banned
Aug 22, 2014
1,671
0
0
As opposed to pulling magic swords out her ass and killing all of her oppressors herself?

Some people might think a female character needs to be physically capable to be strong, but I'm not one of them. But would it be so much harder to show Luna rescuing herself by using her courage and wits, or talking her way out, or figuring out a way to escape through intelligence and cunning rather than physical force?
 

Neoleo2143

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Dec 21, 2015
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I think my main issue with FFXV women characters is that they're boring. For the apparent attempt to create a "fantasy based on reality", there's a lack of complexity in these characters for the most part. Aranea is the only one with any form of complexity but her Arc isn't particularly fresh in concept (it's frankly a rather predictable situation for an enemy character) though her fighting as an occasional side character is a decent wrinkle, but it lacks an emotional core. Iris is there, Cindy just there, Luna's just there, Gentiana's just there. They're all boring and they all lack conflict.

Ravus is neat but his conflict is never mentioned or really implied enough (I mean it makes sense but the story falls flat in making that apparent), it comes across as a twist that lacks any punch.

The Empire are a bunch of Jokes aside for Ardyn. They don't do anything of note in the story aside for providing grunts to grind through
(barring a single moment where Ignis is overwhelmed and Blinded, that was a pretty neat moment especially how they make a subtle gameplay alteration to match).
. I never really cared about them and that's a terrible position for antagonists to be.

My main issue with FFXV is that it's just boring. The sexism given off by the developers is probably the most important in my opinion when addressing sexism the game. In other games where women are treated quite poorly (dishonored 1 for example), I can maybe (probably naively) shrug it off by feeling that just maybe the people in charge of the game don't actually feel that way about women. But Tabata and Co. seem to have broken even that low bar of hope with their marketing, leading to this mess.
 

LordKasual

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Jul 28, 2016
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Hey, that's what this tweet practically says:


Well, he isn't lying. Luna IS a strong and unique character that FF hasn't seen before. None of the other "heroines" of FF have been like Luna.

I don't mean this in any sarcastic or malicious way at all when I say that I'm glad you pieced enough about Luna from the game to think she's adequately portrayed. I personally haven't and it's left me especially frustrated because she was touted as such; the game had the nerve to try and elicit some kind of genuine emotional reaction from me when
they inevitably off her for the sake of advancing the narrative and when they pull off the fairytale afterlife ending
; and they easily could have done so much more with her. No, they didn't have to turn Luna into some badass warrior princess all of a sudden. I was actually okay with her lack of martial prowess and I generally laugh at the retorts from some people (not necessarily you) claiming that critics of Luna are dissatisfied because she isn't wrestling behemoths.

I 100% understand this issue people have with her, and i'm not even really going to put up a good argument against people who simply wanted to see more of her, because I can't. My issue with Luna's criticism is that they seem to like, be happening in this bubble, where Luna's actual character is removed from the game entirely and judged on the face of her actions with little context for anything they are complaining about. Everything Luna does and everything that happens to her is for a good reason, and the deeper I look at it, the more respect I have for their boldness to do it because it was a very realistic outcome for her character.

In any other RPG, you would have gotten to Altissia and the game would have carried itself just how it pretended like it was going to carry itself -- Noctis gets to Luna, beats up Leviathian, beats up the empire, and then goes and marries her and gives her a safe place to hang (or she cuts her hair and joins the party) while he goes and beats up more bad guys and saves the day.

Some people might think a female character needs to be physically capable to be strong, but I'm not one of them. But would it be so much harder to show Luna rescuing herself by using her courage and wits, or talking her way out, or figuring out a way to escape through intelligence and cunning rather than physical force?

And this is why I do not really have a problem with Luna in this game. You can't always rescue yourself. You can't always outsmart or overpower people who are over you. You can't always save those who you care about.

That's just a fantasy, and XV was supposed to be a fantasy based on reality. There isn't always a convenient way out, sometimes you're just stuck in checkmate and have to make do, and that's exactly what Luna did.


Ravus was the example of a character who was in the exact same position Luna was, and attempted to literally overpower and outsmart his oppressors. And you see how that shit turned out.
 

Crossing Eden

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As opposed to pulling magic swords out her ass and killing all of her oppressors herself?
You're arguing semantics when the issue is that she gets put into damsel in distress roles multiple times with no subversion from that because she's literally a walking plot device that gets passed from one protector to the next.

Everything she did is peanuts in the face of the shining man knights (-s) who saved her. And she's a shitty female character because her city was subjugated when she was like 14. Gotcha.
She's a shitty female character for a lot of reasons that were outlined succinctly not only in this thread.

Luna's duty wasn't to Noctis, it was to Eos.
She literally says "it's the oracle's duty to serve the king." in a flashback.

And I wasn't aware Luna didn't have any conflict, thanks for that. That really brings to light how silly it was that she didn't have ample time to practice juggling and crack jokes when she, Ravus and Gentiana had time to spare.
There was never a point where she looked conflicted about what she has to do, nor in any of the media.

First off, the nswer is NO, women characters are not obligated to be trope subversions unless the trope itself is just inherently bad.
Damsels in distress at this point is an incredibly overplayed and overused trope that's damaging for representation. Especially when "at least she has a strong will." which is a trope in and of itself, is the only rebuttal. Luna is incredibly tropey and written solely around Noctis, do you think at any point in time there would ever be a scene that represents conflict between her and Noctis? Like at all? It's grating because her devotion reaches comical proportions, she's in love with someone she hasn't seen in years.

That would just make them another trope in itself, a fake representation of progress.
Kinda like this tweet:


You aren't asking for characters, you're asking for every writer on earth to stroke your fantasy.
It's almost like representation for more than the type of game who needs a male power fantasy in the form of a bland prince who somehow got the undying love of a princess and his friend's sister actually matters or something. Or that Square Enix advertised Luna as something she isn't.

There are DIRECT subversions within XV that prove that Square isn't oblivious to this. And it just makes it even more egregious how people completely ignore them so easily just to rag on Cindy and Luna every chance they get.
Because they got the most marketing. Having women in power isn't a subversion of tropes. FFXV embraces a shit ton of tropes and doesn't deviate from them right down to the "my friends are my power" ending.

Second...if you think Luna's situation has no parallels for any real women on the real Earth, then now i'm actually confused about where you're even coming from when you say her character is badly written.
Tell me more about how many women you know solely communicate in this day and age with a dog with letters attached to their back to the prince that they have an undying love for because they hung out of kids otherwise known as the childhood friend trope that rarely makes any sense.

[QUOTEWhat exactly is so unrelatable about Luna as a woman that makes her so terrible? Genuinely curious.[/QUOTE]
-Undying love for a bland lead that leads to a dissonance between what the player feels and what the character feels, case and point, no one cried along with Noctis when Luna got stabbed, in the same way that no one cried when Padme died
-Constantly put in situations that make her a blatant damsel in distress that needs protecting
-Was advertised a "a strong modern woman."
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As many people have pointed out already...none of those characters were as insultingly shallow as I made them out to be. What I'm showing is just how easy it is to make a female character become a "bad female character" when it's convenient for me personally to make her one.
Except here's the issue, Luna is insultingly shallow.

So...a Titan holding a meteor (that came from nowhere) in a fantasy game is more believable than women running a fantasy town in a fantasy game???? This sounds oddly familiar to a different kind of criticism.
No, it's not, which is why the fact that the game tries to explain one but not the other is incredibly odd.
 

HeelPower

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Some people might think a female character needs to be physically capable to be strong, but I'm not one of them.

In a medium so focused on violence and killing as a major method of interaction, and with a director who lacks subtlety and who thinks death= character development,I'd argue that women having physical power is kind of a necessity to be considered on equal footing with males.
 

Jennipeg

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Well, he isn't lying. Luna IS a strong and unique character that FF hasn't seen before. None of the other "heroines" of FF have been like Luna.

You only have to change one letter and your there.

I 100% understand this issue people have with her, and i'm not even really going to put up a good argument against people who simply wanted to see more of her, because I can't. My issue with Luna's criticism is that they seem to like, be happening in this bubble, where Luna's actual character is removed from the game entirely and judged on the face of her actions with little context for anything they are complaining about. Everything Luna does and everything that happens to her is for a good reason, and the deeper I look at it, the more respect I have for their boldness to do it because it was a very realistic outcome for her character.

In a way I can relate to your situation here, I really like Rinoa from Final Fantasy 8. People shit on her all the time for being annoying, for having a bad love story and for being a damsel in distress (about 5 times iirc).

All valid arguments, but I genuinely like her, because I like her personality. She seems pretty average and in a Fantasy setting I relate to that. I really like the relationship with her father and how that stemmed from the loss of her mother. All that establishes her rebellious and stubborn nature, her desire to be helpful but not being strong enough to do it. I'm not going to have a massive debate over it though, because i'd be fighting a losing battle. Plenty don't like her and that's fine, I disagree but I accept it.

I respect that you like Luna, but many don't. There is no conspiratorial reason for this other than we don't think she was written well. I've probably just written more about Rinoa than we get to know about Luna.

And this is why I do not really have a problem with Luna in this game. You can't always rescue yourself. You can't always outsmart or overpower people who are over you. You can't always save those who you care about.

That's just a fantasy, and XV was supposed to be a fantasy based on reality. There isn't always a convenient way out, sometimes you're just stuck in checkmate and have to make do, and that's exactly what Luna did.

I agree with this, sometimes there just isn't a way out, and that doesn't automatically = weak character. I just think it was badly executed in this case.