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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters |2.0| This isn't even my final form

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Jul 26, 2014
26,221
2
0
America
I feel like people are kind of talking past each other in regards to what they expect from a female character. From a portrayal aspect, clothing aspect, and a character aspect. There are 3 separate discussions to be had on whether they are 'okay' in games.

Tifa is my favorite FF female of all time. love her AC redesign, still think her original design is okay.

But i like even more that her character in being so dynamic and pro active really subverts the perception people would otherwise have about her character just being a blow up doll and nothing more, and shows a 'dont judge a book' type of scenario.

Its the same type of feeling i get from Fran actually, despite my detachment from FF12 in general
 

TGO

Member
Sep 5, 2007
11,382
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I like all the female characters tbf and after visiting Lestallum I agree, the women there are built.
Guess people took it another way.
 
Jun 27, 2015
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Tenebrae
How was Luna unique again? She's a poor child's Aerith but instead binds herself to her man and becomes a delivery girl because of it. I didn't feel she did much of note in the game. We need an entire dlc episode of her in Tenebrae where you can explore her home and know what her family background is like. Her relationship with Ravus is damn terrible for being family and it is so poorly conveyed through... flashbacks of children that weren't in the scene. I dunno what SE was thinking with that.....
 

rhandino

Banned
Sep 3, 2014
11,093
0
0
It's actually *really* hard to find a shot of her in "armor-undies" like the concept art here... did they change it to just pants in the game??





https://youtu.be/4e1p6xFwW1M?t=915
!!!

I actually did not noticed that she got Kiria'd

 
Dec 18, 2014
4,815
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How has Japan's reactions being to the female characters in 15? They've been fairly roundly criticised in the West, but I'm curious how Japan feels about them

Not that their opinion really matters anyway, given how insignificant the Japanese console market has become
 

Garlador

Member
Mar 31, 2015
9,994
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There's one that is extremely similar in concept, better executed and her name is only one letter different.

Lol. Pretty much.
I would be THRILLED if Luna was as "strong" as Yuna was, but she's really not even fit to be in her shadow.

I would kill for Luna to be more like Yuna. Replaying FFX this year impressed me more with her than it ever did when I was younger.
 
C

Contica

Unconfirmed Member
Oh, btw, this is just some bingo bullshit, as if good characters couldn't be sexy, unless you're claiming that everything else has to make room for your liking of sexy.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.

How is it even possible to draw that conclusion from what I said?
 

Dice//

Banned
Jan 24, 2013
6,357
4
400
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dice9633.deviantart.com
There's one that is extremely similar in concept, better executed and her name is only one letter different.

My dumbass can't think who this is but I am intrigued.

EDIT: D'oh. YUNA

I dunno, is Luna a "heroine"? I think the main cast is four guys and ONLY those four main guys (besides whoever is 'patched in'), I don't really consider Luna as anything but a plot-relevant NPC now.

!!!

I actually did not noticed that she got Kiria'd

I don't know? Was Kiria a case of censorship? Because Aranea might just be a design change (much like Luna went from long hair/purple eyes > ponytail/blue eyes)
 

Bladelaw

Member
Jun 20, 2013
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485
Lol. Pretty much.
I would be THRILLED if Luna was as "strong" as Yuna was, but she's really not even fit to be in her shadow.

I would kill for Luna to be more like Yuna. Replaying FFX this year impressed me more with her than it ever did when I was younger.

This is a big thing for me this year. I've been playing old JRPGs as kind of a visual story time for my girls and both FFIV and FFX hit harder now than they did when I played them years ago.

Yuna might be my favorite Final Fantasy character and I can't believe I just typed that. Other characters are "cooler" (Kain BTW), Cecil's easily my favorite "hero" as he really lives the hero's journey. But as a character with drive, determination, conflict, triumph, and tragedy Yuna shoulders a burden more than any one protagonist. In the end it's her story, not Tidus's like he thinks. He may have helped break the cycle but she has to deal with the aftermath, comfort the masses and live on where others can't.

Her final speech and the stinger at the end still break me. Maybe more now.
 

LordKasual

Banned
Jul 28, 2016
5,702
1,303
495
You only have to change one letter and your there.
There's one that is extremely similar in concept, better executed and her name is only one letter different.

My issue with Luna's criticism is that they seem to like, be happening in this bubble, where Luna's actual character is removed from the game entirely and judged on the face of her actions with little context for anything they are complaining about.

Yuna was the daughter of the previous hero of the world. She had 3 dedicated protectors before she was even able to summon an Aeon, and gained more as she continued. All of Spira loved her, and until the twist, all of Spira is trying to help her. She (and everyone else) knew she was going to die before she even decided to leave Besaid. But she chose to be a summoner and do it anyway. Yuna was the most powerful character IN her story by the end, and was the most powerful character you could control basically from the moment you get your first Aeon (who ALSO are trying to help her, they're basically her pets.)

Luna is the descendant of the Oracles, which is already a shitty starting location because her powers were forced on her from an early age when the previous one died -- she has no choice in this matter. Her parents were murdered when she was still young, her country taken. The only ally she had within reach was her brother, who's interests directly conflicted with her own for the majority of her life. She can heal the infected, at the cost of her own strength. She can awaken the Astrals, at the severe cost of her own strength. The Astrals she does awaken openly attack her. She has no convenient pets to call to save her from danger. She has no fighting ability and nobody to protect her as she openly aggravates the empire, who eventually get so aggravated with her meddling that they just decide to kill her. And she lives in a world where her enemy basically owns the world, and so even those who would be her ally are at danger even being in contact with her.

Yuna chooses to sacrifice herself with the encouragement of a hero father, a loving little beach village, some blitzball star she falls for and almost literally every NPC you encounter. Luna is on the run from the most powerful nation on the planet, she has no means of protecting herself, she has no allies to help her achieve her needs, she's surrounded by soulless killbots and she has no entourage of dedicated defenders helping her. Yuna's Aeons are the most powerful creatures in Spira save for Sin. Eos' most powerful creatures (Astrals) get openly attacked and beaten by the same Empire that has Luna under its foot.


Yuna and Luna are closer to opposites, there is barely anything similar about them other than the fact they both have vaginas and don't have swords. Yuna is closer to Noctis than she is to Luna. Which, again, is where i'm positive all this hatred is coming from.


You guys are looking for a power fantasy female. You got a more realistic one.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Jul 23, 2010
30,991
13
720
www.metal-archives.com
True but it seems that even when there is one it always has something like Cindy in it. The Ni No Kuni 2 trailer had pointless impossible boob jiggle
Jesus...

It's like damn can't we get a game without at least one example of this shit? ಠ_ಠ
There is one...
;)


Not sure if I should wade into this because people seem to have thier mind set and already project a point of view but I would like to point out. That Arenea looks different because she is a merc, she is not apart of the empire hence what goes down in the first fight, that you are referencing. She is dressed as a dragoon, none of the other male "commanders" are one. Her fighting style is less about straightforward fighting and more about Arial attacks. Her odd armor design could be due to her special attacks which are unique and very powerful.
Hahahahaha you can't be fucking serious. Yes, that must totally be why they designed the "armour" like that.

Come on son
 

Dice//

Banned
Jan 24, 2013
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Just want to point that Aranea is not from the Empire, she's a mercenary, the Empire just hires her, so that's why she has a different armor.

Still find the boob window unecessary.

My problem with these things is that it just defeat the purpose of an armor. It wouldn't look as jarring if it was regular clothes and she legit want to look sexy (you could say like Gladio), but for a combat armor it just doesn't make sense to design it that way.


I honestly feel that nitpicking at Aranea's outfit is so pointless. This game and this series has way bigger battles worth fighting for but Aranea flashing a LITTLE cleavage and tight pants isn't one of them. She's still got a ton of armor on, and I'm willing to say there's a TON of fantasy armor that makes no goddamn sense and if she's going to wear that over-designed mess she's got on, it's really not that revealing. Impractical as armor? Of course! That's games, most characters in most sccenarios are ill-equipped for the work they do. But I definitely wouldn't accuse Aranea as 'under-dressed' the way some female character have been been.

Can't we chill out about the way character's are dressed? Beyond personal and subjective hiccups we might have with design, and we all already know Cindy is dressed the stupidest, there are way better fights to be had about this but it's not the way either Luna, Aranea, Iris and Gentiana were outfitted. I'm willing to argue their roles more than their clothes.

And for pete's sake, Lightning is a soldier and rarely ANYONE brings up her Battle Mini-Skirt. And it's RIDICULOUSLY short, like without "videogame magic" stretching the skirt polygons around her ass we'd be getting mooned every fight because it WOULD ride up her waist with the moves she does.


Also, with respect to the all-female electricians of Lastallium: Their outfits are bizarre but I think the idea in the city is kinda fun. It's a peculiar quirk (do they ever say why it's just the women?) and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a last minute change after some of the criticisms about women early on during the demo period. :p
What DID irk me was that one male NPC bozo saying:
"My wife keeps getting promoted at work! I'm proud but it makes me feel small"
WELL GEEEEEEE WHIIIZ, I wonder what that feels like!! #empathy

Not sure if I should wade into this because people seem to have thier mind set and already project a point of view but I would like to point out. That Arenea looks different because she is a merc, she is not apart of the empire hence what goes down in the first fight, that you are referencing. She is dressed as a dragoon, none of the other male "commanders" are one. Her fighting style is less about straightforward fighting and more about Arial attacks. Her odd armor design could be due to her special attacks which are unique and very powerful. Also to mention Ravus doesn't even have armor on top half of body, that is a mechanical arm the rest is like cloth and leather. But I mean you did post this as well

You had me till the last sentence. No need to explain why it is that way, half the time games or even movies give reasons for peculiar attire and it's usually on par with "breathing through skin" or whatever other made up hogwash. Just let it be, she's got a different outfit because she's not military. Period.
 

LordKasual

Banned
Jul 28, 2016
5,702
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495
Aranea's boob window is fine, it's not like anyone really needs to be wearing armor in FFXV because Aranea is literally the only one doing it. They canonically mention the crownsguard outfits at the beginning and it's just leather, so i assume there's some magic at work here.

Lightning's skirt has always lightly bothered me though because it just...i dunno. I can see Aranea willingly having the sexy boob window, that feels in line with her personality. She's flashy, she's a free mercenary, she cracks jokes, ect.

Lightning however was afraid to even show the l'cie mark on her chest to another woman, but she's running around with the coochie cutter skirt on. she always seemed a bit too conservative for that skirt.

Also, with respect to the "female electricians" of Lastallium.
Their outfits are bizarre but I think the idea in the city has a good idea behind it.
What DID irk me was that one NPC bozo saying

WELL GEEEEEEE WHIIIZ, I wonder what that feels like!! #empathy

That was almost certainly done on purpose.

And most mine/plant/whatever workers in RPGs are ripped shirtless (or overall wearing) dudes with pickaxes slung over their backs. When you think of it that way, the ladies' half hot suits aren't so odd.
 

Jennipeg

Member
May 6, 2013
1,358
0
0
My dumbass can't think who this is but I am intrigued.

EDIT: D'oh. YUNA

I dunno, is Luna a "heroine"? I think the main cast is four guys and ONLY those four main guys (besides whoever is 'patched in'), I don't really consider Luna as anything but a plot-relevant NPC now.

You aren't alone lol. I was like "...Lulu...?"

Hang your heads in shame! lol
 

Jennipeg

Member
May 6, 2013
1,358
0
0
Yuna was the daughter of the previous hero of the world. She had 3 dedicated protectors before she was even able to summon an Aeon, and gained more as she continued. All of Spira loved her, and until the twist, all of Spira is trying to help her. She (and everyone else) knew she was going to die before she even decided to leave Besaid. But she chose to be a summoner and do it anyway. Yuna was the most powerful character IN her story by the end, and was the most powerful character you could control basically from the moment you get your first Aeon (who ALSO are trying to help her, they're basically her pets.)

Luna is the descendant of the Oracles, which is already a shitty starting location because her powers were forced on her from an early age when the previous one died -- she has no choice in this matter. Her parents were murdered when she was still young, her country taken. The only ally she had within reach was her brother, who's interests directly conflicted with her own for the majority of her life. She can heal the infected, at the cost of her own strength. She can awaken the Astrals, at the severe cost of her own strength. The Astrals she does awaken openly attack her. She has no convenient pets to call to save her from danger. She has no fighting ability and nobody to protect her as she openly aggravates the empire, who eventually get so aggravated with her meddling that they just decide to kill her. And she lives in a world where her enemy basically owns the world, and so even those who would be her ally are at danger even being in contact with her.

Yuna chooses to sacrifice herself with the encouragement of a hero father, a loving little beach village, some blitzball star she falls for and almost literally every NPC you encounter. Luna is on the run from the most powerful nation on the planet, she has no means of protecting herself, she has no allies to help her achieve her needs, she's surrounded by soulless killbots and she has no entourage of dedicated defenders helping her. Yuna's Aeons are the most powerful creatures in Spira save for Sin. Eos' most powerful creatures (Astrals) get openly attacked and beaten by the same Empire that has Luna under its foot.


Yuna and Luna are closer to opposites, there is barely anything similar about them other than the fact they both have vaginas and don't have swords. Yuna is closer to Noctis than she is to Luna. Which, again, is where i'm positive all this hatred is coming from.


You guys are looking for a power fantasy female. You got a more realistic one.

Ok, so everyone loved Yuna, everyone loved Luna. (To be specific, the populace loved Luna for helping them, oh that sounds like Yuna too!) Check
Yuna carried a heavy burden, Luna carried a heavy burden. Check
Yuna could summon and control Aeons, Luna could commune with Astrals (summons). Check
Yuna's journey ends in her death, Luna's job as oracle is killing her. Check
Yevon turned on Yuna and she had to go on the run, Luna is harassed by the empire. Check
Yuna has protectors, Luna has Gentiana....

Seriously how long do I have to carry on? If you can't see the similarity then I legit give up. Ignore everything I say.

Also, Yuna was never encouraged by her father, he was dead before she decided to become a summoner on her own. At no point at all did Tidus encourage her to sacrifice herself. Nobody wanted her to do it, she was going against all of her closest friends by going on the pilgrimage. She wasn't even that special, there were other summoner's in the world, she was aided by the fact Tidus had an effect on Sin.

BIB. This one sentence shows that you are refusing to understand people's issues with her. As a statement it is utterly bizarre, on the last page I detailed how I could quite happily like a 'weak' and realistic character. So no, that is not the issue. If I was looking for a power fantasy, Lightning would be my favourite, she's actually towards the bottom of my list.
 

Sami+

Member
May 2, 2013
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This is the Lunafreya that Square Enix's own marketing hyped up as a unique kind of heroine, right? The same Lunafreya that was hyped up as the heroine of the story? I certainly don't remember people like Gentiana and Loqi being given this much reverence when it comes to the key visual art and how front and centre Luna was. So it baffles me that she still feels like such a footnote character.

I don't understand how you can look at Luna and think she was adequately portrayed. So what if she ultimately has a purpose to the story if you can glean virtually nothing about who she is as a person beyond how committed and brave she is to her mission and what the people of Eos think of her? Let's really sit down and give her characterisation some thought based on what the game tells and shows us. Oh, she likes flowers, said some kid in Tenebrae. Yay. That's what a girl likes, right? Ooh ooh, she also likes stickers. How riveting. And she was also very excited to get married and when her dress arrived, because what young woman wouldn't feel ecstatic to be betrothed to her dreamy prince, even though the two have only known each other as children? Wow, that tells us so much about her! I can go on at great length to describe her rich character so thoroughly.

Oh wait, no I can't. She's a shell. She's a pure, virginal bride steadfast in her duty and unsubtly symbolised by how much white she wears. Her character can only be summed up by how much this mission means to Noctis and what she can do to ensure that her man gets the gods he needs. And when she's not doing that, it's still Noctis Noctis Noctis, because her last spoken dialogue occurs in a flashback where she's tearing up over not being able to be with him. How about we actually explore her thoughts more comprehensively? Her dreams besides of Noctis, her personal regrets, introspection, more of her confiding with Gentiana, more of what her work as a healer means to her, her personal appraisals of her life, a closer look at her relationship with her brother? An insight into her personal thoughts about Noctis as a person? Anything? Something to add actual meat to an otherwise bland and flavourless bone?

This is our heroine. A pure, virginal, trophy wife McGuffin.

Luna was dead the whole time and a figment of Noctis' imagination which is WHY EVERYTHING SHE DOES CENTERS AROUND HIM WOWWY ZOW IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
 

Moral Panic

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Jul 3, 2012
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Hey, that's what this tweet practically says:

:/

It's a tweet. Like people keep posting it as if it is a magic bullet, but it's an English language TWEET from a Japanese developer after facing criticism. Like seriously, it means jack shit.

FFXV isn't about Luna and she takes a secondary role. In fact if all the secondary characters where as well characterised as her the game would've been better, not worse. Iedolas takes centre stage as a leading antagonist and seeming mastermind in Kingslaive (although I hate using the movie to discuss the game) but can you really say he is a better character in FFXV than Luna?

Most of the feminism criticism is warranted but it feels like it is written out of context in a very "I dislike this, so everything it does must be bad" sort of way. Like this

Then there's Prompto, who--because, as Square Enix would constantly like to remind us, these characters are very heterosexual and not at all gay, ever, because they love boobs--promptly (heh) declares that he is now torn between Aranea and Cindy, and cannot possibly decide which of them he'd rather bang. I have a third option for you, Prompto: how about we stop talking about women like they're pieces of meat? That'll get you further ahead with the ladies, I promise you.

I find it very hard not to feel that the person writing doesn't truly think that there is something misogynistic about a person deciding between various potentially suitors. Like seriously, people in real life talk and discuss their options. And even in the context of how the other characters react to his comment it baffles me that it could be seen as problematic. I understand the criticism that often women are put into these things as props merely to be paired off with a character, but it's 100% clear this isn't the case from the context, and the comment never comes down to the writer using the girls as an outlet to express his/her sexual preferences. It's just the joker character making a joke about dating, of which the rest of the cast treat as such.
 

Bladenic

Member
Sep 13, 2011
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It's a tweet. Like people keep posting it as if it is a magic bullet, but it's an English language TWEET from a Japanese developer after facing criticism. Like seriously, it means jack shit.

FFXV isn't about Luna and she takes a secondary role. In fact if all the secondary characters where as well characterised as her the game would've been better, not worse. Iedolas takes centre stage as a leading antagonist and seeming mastermind in Kingslaive (although I hate using the movie to discuss the game) but can you really say he is a better character in FFXV than Luna?

Most of the feminism criticism is warranted but it feels like it is written out of context in a very "I dislike this, so everything it does must be bad" sort of way. Like this



I find it very hard not to feel that the person writing doesn't truly think that there is something misogynistic about a person deciding between various potentially suitors. Like seriously, people in real life talk and discuss their options. And even in the context of how the other characters react to his comment it baffles me that it could be seen as problematic. I understand the criticism that often women are put into these things as props merely to be paired off with a character, but it's 100% clear this isn't the case from the context, and the comment never comes down to the writer using the girls as an outlet to express his/her sexual preferences. It's just the joker character making a joke about dating, of which the rest of the cast treat as such.

The paragraph you quoted was ridiculous IMO, I agree with that. And it's not even how it goes down in the game lmao it's not like promto is all "Aranea got the nicer tits but Cidney got DAT ASS woe is me who shall I choose to bless with my dick"
 

LordKasual

Banned
Jul 28, 2016
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Ok, so everyone loved Yuna, everyone loved Luna. (To be specific, the populace loved Luna for helping them, oh that sounds like Yuna too!) Check
Yuna carried a heavy burden, Luna carried a heavy burden. Check
Yuna could summon and control Aeons, Luna could commune with Astrals (summons). Check
Yuna's journey ends in her death, Luna's job as oracle is killing her. Check
Yevon turned on Yuna and she had to go on the run, Luna is harassed by the empire. Check
Yuna has protectors, Luna has Gentiana....

Seriously how long do I have to carry on? If you can't see the similarity then I legit give up. Ignore everything I say.

Also, Yuna was never encouraged by her father, he was dead before she decided to become a summoner on her own. At no point at all did Tidus encourage her to sacrifice herself. Nobody wanted her to do it, she was going against all of her closest friends by going on the pilgrimage. She wasn't even that special, there were other summoner's in the world, she was aided by the fact Tidus had an effect on Sin.

BIB. This one sentence shows that you are refusing to understand people's issues with her. As a statement it is utterly bizarre, on the last page I detailed how I could quite happily like a 'weak' and realistic character. So no, that is not the issue. If I was looking for a power fantasy, Lightning would be my favourite, she's actually towards the bottom of my list.

The power fantasy female is just a guess, really. Not because i legitimately think thats what people are after, but because it's the simplest answer to explain why people keep ignoring the details of Luna's life when they talk about her character.

Everyone loved them both. (the people).
-Yeah, that's a check, if you exclude Nifelhiem. There was no equilivent of Nifelhiem in Spira, and if we're going to analyze a character's personality and actions this is kinda sorta very much definitely important to mention the people directly responsible for most of said character's development. What the Nifs did directly set a wedge between Luna and her brother.

They both carried a heavy burden.
-Yes, this is a check, but the way that burden fell on them is completely different. At any point in her journey, Yuna could have stopped. Nothing was forced on her, she forced herself because she wanted to. Luna couldn't just stop being an oracle...i mean, she could have if she really wanted to...but she'd still be the oracle. She was born into that. There was more than one summoner in Spira, you ran into a few of them during the game.

Yuna could summon and control Aeons, Luna could commune with Astrals (summons).

-This is where the comparisons stop working on a logical level. For obvious reasons. Yuna summons Valefor and then walks outside and summons him/her(?) again to show how awesome she is. Luna awakens the Astrals and just gets her shit kicked in. One time she does it and it literally beats the hell out of her. Luna can't "summon" shit, the Astrals help whomever they want to and they only help Noctis.

Yuna's journey ends in her death, Luna's job as oracle is killing her.
- A chosen path that ends in sacrifice is not quite the same flavor as a divine duty that kills you. Choosing to do a job is not the same thing as being forced or pressured to. Yuna's people stopped pressuring her to stop because Yuna just didn't want to. Luna was pressured to stop (by Ravus) but didn't because she knew she knew if she didn't, the world was definitely fucked.

Yevon turned on Yuna and she had to go on the run, Luna is harassed by the empire.

- Yevon turned on Yuna. Meaning they were working WITH her at some point and she was already on her feet. Luna (and her family) (and her nation) straight-up get their shit rocked by the empire before she even gets a chance to decide she doesn't like them. And again, Yuna is the strongest single person IN Spira by that point. Luna only gets weaker. I don't think i'd go with the word "harassment" to describe how i feel about people who killed my parents in front of my face.

Yuna has protectors, Luna has Gentiana (lol)
- Don't know why you bothered with this one. Yuna has 5 dedicated protectors, including 3 before she even starts. She has like 8 Aeons at her call. Luna has literally nobody but Regis and not only is he stationed an entire continent away, he's dead before the events of the game even start. Even if she had Ravus to begin with, there's no guarantee that things would have turned out different. Gentiana's help pretty much begins and ends with advice and aiding Luna is communicating with Noctis.


I get the similarities...it's the differences that you're ignoring. And these are quite important if we're talking about the psyche or underlying cause of action of said characters. You can't just ignore them.

LOL Tabata must've really hated Stella, keeps downplaying her everytime Luna is mentioned

He had he foresight to see what was coming, thats why.

People kept asking about a character in a game that didn't fucking exist anymore. Might as well set them straight before the game releases and people think she's someone that she's n...

...well.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Jul 26, 2014
26,221
2
0
America
How has Japan's reactions being to the female characters in 15? They've been fairly roundly criticised in the West, but I'm curious how Japan feels about them

Not that their opinion really matters anyway, given how insignificant the Japanese console market has become

Japan made 700k sales of this game. I think they have a right to have an opinion. Why do they dont yet we supposedly do? Is there something i'm missing?

Anyway, just like the west, reception is mixed. There are people who like a lot of elements of the game and are thinking optimistically about it, and a lot of people hate the 'host' designs of the main characters and the fact that there are no notable main female characters. And they are also focusing mostly on the weak points people in the west are pointing out, there's nothing really different about the reception besides being more to the negative side. The negative voices are much more vocal than the positive ones.

Luna in particular is disparaged as a weak point in most 2ch impressions, Amazon reviews and youtube comments sections i've looked at because of Tabata's previous statements about how she was really prominent in the game. Everyone thinks Iris is kawaii.
 

Via Purifico

Banned
Jun 14, 2007
4,981
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Well to be fair Sephiroth is a pansy ass mama's boy while Ardyn is dope.

Kidding.

Although I do prefer Ardyn

I can agree to that but it's how he was putting Ardyn on such a high pedestal but overall I did like him better.

In terms of boss fights I liked Spehiroth more in terms of personality I enjoyed Ardyn a hell of a lot more.
 

Pilgrimzero

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Jun 23, 2014
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Biggest problem with Luna (and most of the characters) is you are told not shown who they are.

Luna is "strong" because the developer says so. What do we see in the game that shows this?

I didn't even know Noc and her loved each other until after ch 9. And that was because an NPC told me they did.
 

Via Purifico

Banned
Jun 14, 2007
4,981
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Biggest problem with Luna (and most of the characters) is you are told not shown who they are.

Luna is "strong" because the developer says so. What do we see in the game that shows this?

I didn't even know Noc and her loved each other until after ch 9. And that was because an NPC told me they did.

The whole love aspect was flawed from the very start considering they haven't seen each other in years making it feel extremely forced. There really should have been scenes where they secretly met up from time to time during the years.

I actually liked the line when she was Stella more
"Don't worry about me, live your own life" should have expanded on that more in the rewrites.
 

orthodoxy1095

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I honestly feel that nitpicking at Aranea's outfit is so pointless. This game and this series has way bigger battles worth fighting for but Aranea flashing a LITTLE cleavage and tight pants isn't one of them. She's still got a ton of armor on, and I'm willing to say there's a TON of fantasy armor that makes no goddamn sense and if she's going to wear that over-designed mess she's got on, it's really not that revealing. Impractical as armor? Of course! That's games, most characters in most sccenarios are ill-equipped for the work they do. But I definitely wouldn't accuse Aranea as 'under-dressed' the way some female character have been been.

Can't we chill out about the way character's are dressed? Beyond personal and subjective hiccups we might have with design, and we all already know Cindy is dressed the stupidest, there are way better fights to be had about this but it's not the way either Luna, Aranea, Iris and Gentiana were outfitted. I'm willing to argue their roles more than their clothes.

And for pete's sake, Lightning is a soldier and rarely ANYONE brings up her Battle Mini-Skirt. And it's RIDICULOUSLY short, like without "videogame magic" stretching the skirt polygons around her ass we'd be getting mooned every fight because it WOULD ride up her waist with the moves she does.


Also, with respect to the all-female electricians of Lastallium: Their outfits are bizarre but I think the idea in the city is kinda fun. It's a peculiar quirk (do they ever say why it's just the women?) and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a last minute change after some of the criticisms about women early on during the demo period. :p
What DID irk me was that one male NPC bozo saying:

WELL GEEEEEEE WHIIIZ, I wonder what that feels like!! #empathy



You had me till the last sentence. No need to explain why it is that way, half the time games or even movies give reasons for peculiar attire and it's usually on par with "breathing through skin" or whatever other made up hogwash. Just let it be, she's got a different outfit because she's not military. Period.
I don't think Aranea and Iris' clothing is that important, but I do think Luna's pretty clearly feeds into her stories and the more grating issues with her.
 

Zakalwe

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Another thing that drives me absolutely nutso is the way that the characters will talk about women in banter. Prompto saying he can't choose between Cindy and Aranea. Gladio when walking around Lestallum exclaiming, "Damn, the women here are built!" and Prompto randomly blurting, "Sultry..." It's just gross. Ick, ick, ick, get it away.

Ignis says "sultry", and he's referring to the weather (it means humid).
 

Jennipeg

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The power fantasy female is just a guess, really. Not because i legitimately think thats what people are after, but because it's the simplest answer to explain why people keep ignoring the details of Luna's life when they talk about her character.

Everyone loved them both. (the people).
-Yeah, that's a check, if you exclude Nifelhiem. There was no equilivent of Nifelhiem in Spira, and if we're going to analyze a character's personality and actions this is kinda sorta very much definitely important to mention the people directly responsible for most of said character's development. What the Nifs did directly set a wedge between Luna and her brother.

They both carried a heavy burden.
-Yes, this is a check, but the way that burden fell on them is completely different. At any point in her journey, Yuna could have stopped. Nothing was forced on her, she forced herself because she wanted to. Luna couldn't just stop being an oracle...i mean, she could have if she really wanted to...but she'd still be the oracle. She was born into that. There was more than one summoner in Spira, you ran into a few of them during the game.

Yuna could summon and control Aeons, Luna could commune with Astrals (summons).

-This is where the comparisons stop working on a logical level. For obvious reasons. Yuna summons Valefor and then walks outside and summons him/her(?) again to show how awesome she is. Luna awakens the Astrals and just gets her shit kicked in. One time she does it and it literally beats the hell out of her. Luna can't "summon" shit, the Astrals help whomever they want to and they only help Noctis.

Yuna's journey ends in her death, Luna's job as oracle is killing her.
- A chosen path that ends in sacrifice is not quite the same flavor as a divine duty that kills you. Choosing to do a job is not the same thing as being forced or pressured to. Yuna's people stopped pressuring her to stop because Yuna just didn't want to. Luna was pressured to stop (by Ravus) but didn't because she knew she knew if she didn't, the world was definitely fucked.

Yevon turned on Yuna and she had to go on the run, Luna is harassed by the empire.

- Yevon turned on Yuna. Meaning they were working WITH her at some point and she was already on her feet. Luna (and her family) (and her nation) straight-up get their shit rocked by the empire before she even gets a chance to decide she doesn't like them. And again, Yuna is the strongest single person IN Spira by that point. Luna only gets weaker. I don't think i'd go with the word "harassment" to describe how i feel about people who killed my parents in front of my face.

Yuna has protectors, Luna has Gentiana (lol)
- Don't know why you bothered with this one. Yuna has 5 dedicated protectors, including 3 before she even starts. She has like 8 Aeons at her call. Luna has literally nobody but Regis and not only is he stationed an entire continent away, he's dead before the events of the game even start. Even if she had Ravus to begin with, there's no guarantee that things would have turned out different. Gentiana's help pretty much begins and ends with advice and aiding Luna is communicating with Noctis.


I get the similarities...it's the differences that you're ignoring. And these are quite important if we're talking about the psyche or underlying cause of action of said characters. You can't just ignore them.



He had he foresight to see what was coming, thats why.

People kept asking about a character in a game that didn't fucking exist anymore. Might as well set them straight before the game releases and people think she's someone that she's n...

...well.

Sorry for the delay in replying, i'm in the UK so went to sleep :)

I take your point, there are differences that I accept. But there are also too many similarities to proclaim Luna as a truly unique character (The dev's words). The many differences come from the plot, the setting and the obviously very different politics at work.

If you think of them as two female characters with burdens, with power, both holding positions of high respect (and then having that respect undermined by politics) then they align pretty well. Yes it happens in different ways because the plots of the games are different, but they are both figure heads in their own settings.

To be totally honest, this is an easy way to throw shade at an undercooked character, because Luna can never measure up to Yuna. We spent 40 hours with Yuna, who became powerful in a story we were able to witness, we saw her struggle, make mistakes and lose her faith. We had maybe an hour with Luna.

Luna may be strong, as in powerful. She may be strong in her resolve, but the amount of screen time she got didn't allow for anything but plot. There was nothing of her, except her love for Noctis. That's not character development, she doesn't have any, she is the same throughout.

She keeps going on about serving the king, it would have been more palatable to say she served the realm. A lot of issues are directly linked to her screen time, if we saw her more, then maybe she could say something that wasn't about Noctis. That motivation itself isn't bad, when it's the only thing we see, it is. It should be part of a larger story that she doesn't get. That is why I am personally so against her, I do not see her as a person, and it pisses me off. I said this on another thread, and someone told me that she was just like Yuna, as if transposing Yuna's personality onto Luna would make up for her lack of characterisation.... not helpful.

Personally I have always been very attached to the female FF characters, and to see one treated this way makes me mad. She was used in all the promo, she was in Kingslgaive when the guys weren't, she is the FF heroine of this game, and I hate it.

I hope that this is a little bit more substantial a reason than I have given previously. My issues come from a genuine place. They could have had Luna as a playable character, like in FFIX, where you could witness events happening at the same time. She never had to join the main party to be playable, and more cutscenes would not have hurt this game.

PS. I mentioned Gentiana because she is technically
a goddess
. That kind of makes her a worthwhile ally.
 

Sirpopopop

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He threw shade on Sephiroth too when talking about Ardyn lol he was hyperbole personified with some of these characters.

While I'm not fond of Tabata throwing shade on Sephiroth... Ardyn was the first Final Fantasy protagonist whom actually seemed human.
 

Laughing Banana

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You want me to start with the part where's she's a damsel in distress for the vast majority of Kingsglaive and a walking plot device written solely around Noctis? And then getting fridged for the sole purpose of Noctis, and then it's ok, the blonde trophy wife is in the afterlife with Noctis. There's plenty wrong with how she's portrayed. She's a weak forgettable excuse for a character that no one will remember 10 years from now especially not in a positive light as Japan gets left behind more and more by the west in terms of female representation. Noctis is allowed to express emotion and feel conflicted about his goals, but Luna is solely written as completely ok with giving her life for this dude she hasn't seen in ten years, TOTES a strong modern woman.

May I ask: do you view "falling in love" as a weakness for a female character? Do you feel like "falling in love" is an immediate disqualifier for a female character to be called a strong one?

"Giving her all to support the one she loves", do you view such an approach for a female character is equivalent to making her a weak one?

It's true that they--the writers, I mean--could have treated her better, but saying Luna as "completely ok" with her role is at the very least false, as the game blatantly showed her as about to give up entirely on chapter 9 and needed prodding from her brother to continue on--I guess that scene must have slipped off your recollection.
 

Neoleo2143

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May I ask: do you view "falling in love" as a weakness for a female character? Do you feel like "falling in love" is an immediate disqualifier for a female character to be called a strong one?

"Giving her all to support the one she loves", do you view such an approach for a female character is equivalent to making her a weak one?

It doesn't necessarily make them weak I feel. But it's something that can be very dangerous to tip toe around lest the character becomes much less interesting as they become a vector of the other character rather than one character that stands on their own.

I actually think Tidus and Yuna (heh, not Yuna again right) had a rather neat romantic relationship but it never undermined Yuna's primary goals in the world which kept her interesting. Her relationship with Tidus became another strength of hers and not a chain on her. It became a nuance that helped her along in her development.

Luna's goal in the world is basically Noctis, her love interest. Her stoicism (or lack thereof in one scene in Ch. 9) in pursuing this goal is all there is to her character. There's a lack of complexity which hurts her ability to appear humanlike.
 

Laughing Banana

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Luna's goal in the world is basically Noctis, her love interest. Her stoicism (or lack thereof in one scene in Ch. 9) in pursuing this goal is all there is to her character. There's a lack of complexity which hurts her ability to appear humanlike.

I personally thought that I just do not feel like many others who thought that Luna's devotion towards supporting the one she loves, Noctis, as a "weakness" on her part. I thought it was admirable, especially since she's basically only in her lonesome when doing it, risking so many things in the process simply to help the person she loves fulfilling his part of the deal in the whole destiny mumbo jumbo, hahaha. (and let's not forget, it's not like Noctis is "mwahaha I am using you bitch for my purpose bow to me!" either towards her, in fact I think the game has adequately explained that he put her wellbeing above his responsibility as the King, as shown by various conversations before arriving at Altissia and him moping around weeks beyond her death)

Though I agree, and I don't think anyone here disagrees, that the game could have done something more towards her, give her more scenes, whatever.

Also, please remember that I am but a simple person who is weak against everything lovey dovey, hahaha, so for me *personally* Chapter 9 in FFXV worked really well in tugging at my heartstrings. I was actually feeling sad when going through that.
 

Ferr986

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I honestly feel that nitpicking at Aranea's outfit is so pointless. This game and this series has way bigger battles worth fighting for but Aranea flashing a LITTLE cleavage and tight pants isn't one of them. She's still got a ton of armor on, and I'm willing to say there's a TON of fantasy armor that makes no goddamn sense and if she's going to wear that over-designed mess she's got on, it's really not that revealing. Impractical as armor? Of course! That's games, most characters in most sccenarios are ill-equipped for the work they do. But I definitely wouldn't accuse Aranea as 'under-dressed' the way some female character have been been.

Can't we chill out about the way character's are dressed? Beyond personal and subjective hiccups we might have with design, and we all already know Cindy is dressed the stupidest, there are way better fights to be had about this but it's not the way either Luna, Aranea, Iris and Gentiana were outfitted. I'm willing to argue their roles more than their clothes.

I agree Aranea is not the biggest offender, just was pointing how I still didn't like that aspect of her design (mind you, I really like her character). She's still the best female character of this game and god way better than Lightning....

I do think talking about outfits is also important, considering how (usually) how female outfits are designed compared to male. You're not going to see a male dressed like Cindy, pant's string out included.
 

pashmilla

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May I ask: do you view "falling in love" as a weakness for a female character? Do you feel like "falling in love" is an immediate disqualifier for a female character to be called a strong one?

"Giving her all to support the one she loves", do you view such an approach for a female character is equivalent to making her a weak one?

It's true that they--the writers, I mean--could have treated her better, but saying Luna as "completely ok" with her role is at the very least false, as the game blatantly showed her as about to give up entirely on chapter 9 and needed prodding from her brother to continue on--I guess that scene must have slipped off your recollection.

Love isn't the problem. The problem is that Luna's entire life and purpose revolves around her man. Everything she does is for him. She's a textbook satellite love interest.
 

Jennipeg

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I personally thought that I just do not feel like many others who thought that Luna's devotion towards supporting the one she loves, Noctis, as a "weakness" on her part. I thought it was admirable, especially since she's basically only in her lonesome when doing it, risking so many things in the process simply to help the person she loves fulfilling his part of the deal in the whole destiny mumbo jumbo, hahaha. (and let's not forget, it's not like Noctis is "mwahaha I am using you bitch for my purpose bow to me!" either towards her, in fact I think the game has adequately explained that he put her wellbeing above his responsibility as the King, as shown by various conversations before arriving at Altissia and him moping around weeks beyond her death)

Though I agree, and I don't think anyone here disagrees, that the game could have done something more towards her, give her more scenes, whatever.

Also, please remember that I am but a simple person who is weak against everything lovey dovey, hahaha, so for me *personally* Chapter 9 in FFXV worked really well in tugging at my heartstrings. I was actually feeling sad when going through that.

I kind of touched on this in my essay a few posts up (you don't have to read it lol). I don't think her motivations are wrong at all, love and devotion is a powerful thing. I just wanted more from her characterisation, some kind of development.

In this case, her devotion to someone she hasn't seen since childhood felt a bit pitiful, I didn't believe in their love, so it's purely their handling of it that makes it seem weak. I didn't even know Noctis cared about her until chapter 9.

Take Squall for example, he literally went to the moon for the woman he loved, that didn't make him weak. We saw how he changed from a monosyllabic, withdrawn and fearful person, to someone willing to embrace relationships and let people in. That whole game was really about him being rescued from himself, Luna doesn't get anywhere near that type of development. She loves Noctis and that's it. We just have to accept it.
 

Laughing Banana

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In this case, her devotion to someone she hasn't seen since childhood felt a bit pitiful, I didn't believe in their love, so it's purely their handling of it that makes it seem weak. I didn't even know Noctis cared about her until chapter 9.

Take Squall for example, he literally went to the moon for the woman he loved, that didn't make him weak. We saw how he changed from a monosyllabic, withdrawn and fearful person, to someone willing to embrace relationships and let people in. That whole game was really about him being rescued from himself, Luna doesn't get anywhere near that type of development. She loves Noctis and that's it. We just have to accept it.

To the bolded, lol really? I thought it was very obvious, they're not really being subtle in telling the players how Noctis viewed her. They even had a conversation before arriving in Altissia that he considers her safety/well-being as a much more important concern for him personally beyond even his kingly duties.

Yea I suppose they could have done much better with Luna. If only she could become our party member or something... I don't mind snubbing Prompto out for her, lol.

As for FFVIII, I personally thought the way they handled Squall falling to Rinoa as weak since it seemed very abrupt and forceful, but that's not a conversation for this thread, hahaha.
 

Jennipeg

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To the bolded, lol really? I thought it was very obvious, they're not really being subtle in telling the players how Noctis viewed her. They even had a conversation before arriving in Altissia that he considers her safety/well-being as a much more important concern for him personally beyond even his kingly duties.

Yea I suppose they could have done much better with Luna. If only she could become our party member or something... I don't mind snubbing Prompto out for her, lol.

As for FFVIII, I personally thought the way they handled Squall falling to Rinoa as weak since it seemed very abrupt and forceful, but that's not a conversation for this thread, hahaha.

I genuinely wasn't sure, whenever someone mentioned it, and it was mentioned a lot he said 'I guess' 'I suppose'. It's not really much to go on. Ignis showed more vested interest in Luna than Noctis did. He was the one saying her safety was paramount. It wasn't until he watched her give her speech that I knew for sure. That's the problem with having no interaction between the two, I mean I've sent more heartfelt text messages than they sent via that book. They would read it and smile like they had read a Shakespearean sonnet, it just made me laugh.

Your right about FFVIII, it's a whole other topic. But I think it's a good example of how a badly handled romance has a major effect on the way we view events. I liked VIII's romance (the transition isn't great but I know what they were aiming for), so I was invested in those characters and viewed them differently than you did. The opposite is the case with XV, I just don't think it worked and felt nothing, whereas it had some appeal for you.
 

Dice//

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I genuinely wasn't sure, whenever someone mentioned it, and it was mentioned a lot he said 'I guess' 'I suppose'. It's not really much to go on. Ignis showed more vested interest in Luna than Noctis did. He was the one saying her safety was paramount. It wasn't until he watched her give her speech that I knew for sure. That's the problem with having no interaction between the two, I mean I've sent more heartfelt text messages than they sent via that book. They would read it and smile like they had read a Shakespearean sonnet, it just made me laugh

I personally see FFXV as a Shakespearean tragedy of sorts. The game conflates this moment where Noctis and Luna finally meet and everything would get better; you've been prepped and ready for this moment.
So what would be the worst thing to happen? Luna being killed of course. TO further the tragedy, Noctis and his party lose their own life too. FFXV was not meant to be a happy game, a lot of its characters lose their lives for foolish reasons [for war] and only sparring the least essential part of the cast.

I honestly don't mind what they did with Luna because:
a) I don't see her as a protagonist in any way, despite the FF tradition to at least give us one female lead
b) The game is a bonafide tragedy and it took away one of its most important adjuncts in that

I DO feel Noctis liked her, again not only because of the fact she'd "help" the situation, but also I don't think you keep an attractive pen-pal for 10 years for nothing. :p [/joke] But also the way he smiled like an idiot every time that dog came by. Still, I do wish the correspondence was better and more interesting.
Any grips I have with the way Luna's characterization was handled can honestly be applied to anyone too.
 

Crossing Eden

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May I ask: do you view "falling in love" as a weakness for a female character? Do you feel like "falling in love" is an immediate disqualifier for a female character to be called a strong one?
No, but is that's all there is to a character and it's driven to a ridiculous degree, (still in love after not seeing or communicating for years). Then yes there's an issue there.

"Giving her all to support the one she loves", do you view such an approach for a female character is equivalent to making her a weak one?
Romance isn't an inherently bad plot, but holy shit are games bad at romance most of the time. Especially when it comes to giving the women absolutely nothing to their personality but as a transparent romance for the main character. Luna is terrible since she's so transparently written as an accessory to Noctis.

It's true that they--the writers, I mean--could have treated her better, but saying Luna as "completely ok" with her role is at the very least false, as the game blatantly showed her as about to give up entirely on chapter 9 and needed prodding from her brother to continue on--I guess that scene must have slipped off your recollection.
She was about to give up not because she was conflicted but because she's literally dying physically. Not because she's in anyway conflicted about her role but because she's literally too physically weak to even sit in a chair properly until the "strong will" perk is unlocked. There's an inherent pattern with so many weak female protagonists in anime or Japanese properties having a "strong will" that it's fucking grating.
 

Rainy

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Beat Chapter 9 yesterday.
Jesus I didn't really feel much when Luna died, wish there were more scenes with her before that point...