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One Analyst's Prediction: PS4 Slim to be announced in addition to the PS4 Neo at TGS

Fat4all

Banned
Jan 11, 2015
21,024
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360
slickern a weazle
That's a pretty dumb statement. No company specifically create strategies to accommodate the second hand market in which they make no money from.

Except that's exactly what PS+ does. The most popular games require it for their multiplayer, giving them profits even if the console and game are second hand.

It's not dumb at all to have more consoles out there even if they are second hand. That's a lot of software sales potential.
 

slavesnyder

Member
Nov 18, 2013
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I think you're missing the option called the original PS4.
I'm aware of the current model. But let's estimate they find a way to build the PS4 cheaper and lighter/smaller. This would give them the possibility to lower the price further. Lighter/smaller saves a lot of money in manufacturing, transport and stock.
These are the reasons we always got slim models.
Except that's exactly what PS+ does. The most popular games require it for their multiplayer, giving them profits even if the console and game are second hand.

It's not dumb at all to have more consoles out there even if they are second hand. That's a lot of software sales potential.
Exactly. On a sold console they might make a few bucks once. But on subscriptions and games they can make money constantly. That's far more important.
 

WaterAstro

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Oct 27, 2015
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Except that's exactly what PS+ does. The most popular games require it for their multiplayer, giving them profits even if the console and game are second hand.

It's not dumb at all to have more consoles out there even if they are second hand. That's a lot of software sales potential.

It's dumb not to have more Neos out there. Sony wants developers onboard with the Neo, and you don't do that by making competition against your own market.

Edit: oh one more thing, if someone buys a Slim and already has a PS4, that's not an additional PS+ subscription.

I'm aware of the current model. But let's estimate they find a way to build the PS4 cheaper and lighter/smaller. This would give them the possibility to lower the price further. Lighter/smaller saves a lot of money in manufacturing, transport and stock.
These are the reasons we always got slim models.

The PS4 is already light and small, and they can make them cheaper without even changing its size. In fact, changing the case will just make it even more costly, sending them back to the R&D to figure out how to downsize it, then creating extra production lines separate from the original just because someone thinks the original PS4 could be a penny shorter.
 

Fachasaurus

Member
May 22, 2014
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Why would they release the slim if the adoption rate for PS4 is already so high? If you don't have one by now I don't think a smaller one is going to push you over the edge.

More so if people are trying to save money for one at the moment, why use that money on a PS4 with the knowledge that the PS4K is right around the corner?
 

Fat4all

Banned
Jan 11, 2015
21,024
3
360
slickern a weazle
It's dumb not to have more Neos out there. Sony wants developers onboard with the Neo, and you don't do that by making competition against your own market.

That's not my point, my point is on the consoles that become second hand because of the Neo and Slim coming out. They aren't "marketing" their pre-owned strategy, it's built in to the service for those who want cheaper options.

Edit: oh one more thing, if someone buys a Slim and already has a PS4, that's not an additional PS+ subscription.

The person who buys that old pre-owned PS4 original will likely buy it, as its a new customer not a returning one. Cheaper options will always be welcome in the industry, whether it be cheaper new or cheaper pre-owned.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Jun 22, 2004
7,687
302
1,745
jrcbandit said:
Plus, it would be way too many new choices out
One form-factor redesign, likely smaller(the 'new' ps4), multiple skus (standard/neo). Old model on clearance like the fat XB.
In terms of choices, XB-s has 3 skus by itself already.
 

jeff_rigby

Banned
Aug 7, 2010
3,825
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They are just going to keep making small incremental changes to the base PS4 unit instead of a slim. They want to maximize PS4 NEO's attractiveness while lowering the cost of OG PS4 for the 'lower tier option'. Introducing yet another sku would mess that up because it would be expected to come with some of the advancements of NEO like 4K output, UHD BR and HDR color compatibility
4K output, UHD BR and HDR color compatibility are functions of the PS4 Southbridge. Are you suggesting that having two different versions of Southbridge is cheaper than one going forward? Using 14nm FinFET to reduce power and die size to make a cheaper PS4 is what they have always done with game consoles. The PS4 NEO is the aberration in using the same or more power and maybe more expensive.

OFF topic: There is a Netflix app now listed twice in the PS4 Library with one advertising "Stranger things". If you click on it you go to the Sony PS4 Store where Netflix can be downloaded. The listed size of the Netflix APP is 26.2 MB while the actual size in the PS4 is 1.14 GB.

Best guess is they are using the Netflix size post PS4 firmware 4.0 update which is expected when Sony publishes to Netflix the Southbridge APIs using Playready embedded..
 

slavesnyder

Member
Nov 18, 2013
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355
The PS4 is already light and small, and they can make them cheaper without even changing its size. In fact, changing the case will just make it even more costly, sending them back to the R&D to figure out how to downsize it, then creating extra production lines separate from the original just because someone thinks the original PS4 could be a penny shorter.
I also think that the PS4 isn't desperately in need for a slim version, but I don't have your confidence in knowing exactly the costs and benefits for a redesign. Might not be worth it, but it could also be.
Maybe they can even save money by streamlining production and manufacturing a huge part of the same content for Ps4 slim and Neo.
Like, 3/4 of the process and parts are the same, and the last quater will be either Neo parts or slim. Should save them a good amount of money.
 

WaterAstro

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Oct 27, 2015
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That's not my point, my point is on the consoles that become second hand because of the Neo and Slim coming out. They aren't "marketing" their pre-owned strategy, it's built in to the service for those who want cheaper options.

The person who buys that old pre-owned PS4 original will likely buy it, as its a new customer not a returning one. Cheaper options will always be welcome in the industry, whether it be cheaper new or cheaper pre-owned.

And that's my point. They don't want original PS4 owners to rebuy another PS4. They want them to buy the Neo, and they will do that by pricing the Neo at the original PS4's launch price.

There is nothing cheaper than an already small form-factor original PS4.

I also think that the PS4 isn't desperately in need for a slim version, but I don't have your confidence in knowing exactly the costs and benefits for a redesign. Might not be worth it, but it could also be.
Maybe they can even save money by streamlining production and manufacturing a huge part of the same content for Ps4 slim and Neo.
Like, 3/4 of the process and parts are the same, and the last quater will be either Neo parts or slim. Should save them a good amount of money.

Downsizing hardware is extremely costly for any electronic. Microsoft is definitely losing a ton of money making their Slim, but they needed it for long term because the original was stupid VCR size car.

And, no, parts will not cost the same. They will be more expensive, smaller components.
 

Blam

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Jun 7, 2016
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But why. The thing is already hella hot, and loud. I'd rather not have it overheat over and over again because it's going to be the size of a Wii.
 

blue_phazon

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Jul 8, 2011
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Why would they release the slim if the adoption rate for PS4 is already so high? If you don't have one by now I don't think a smaller one is going to push you over the edge.

More so if people are trying to save money for one at the moment, why use that money on a PS4 with the knowledge that the PS4K is right around the corner?
Because usually when a slim is made, it's because they're using lower cost materials, and still get a good profit even if they sell it at a low price.

I bet they're planning on replacing the current PS4 with the slim
 

Kyoufu

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Jul 26, 2007
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But why. The thing is already hella hot, and loud. I'd rather not have it overheat over and over again because it's going to be the size of a Wii.

I heard a wild rumour that smaller chips consume less energy therefore they produce less heat.

Need someone to confirm/deny this rumour before I believe or write it off.
 

n0razi

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Nov 8, 2011
4,934
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It's already a pretty small console. It's also extremely loud and runs hot. I wonder how much smaller they can get

I would totally buy a disc-less PS4 slim.... im 100% digital and something the size of an Amazon Fire TV would be awesome.
 

WaterAstro

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I would totally buy a disc-less PS4 slim.... im 100% digital and something the size of an Amazon Fire TV would be awesome.

You do realize that Amazon Fire TV only has 8gb of storage. You won't be able to download one disc based game on it.

Even if someone decided to go for an m.2 storage solution, those things cost like $500 for 512gb.
 

paulogy

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I can imagine one new PS4 SKU this year, but not two. If there even is a Slim, that would probably hit around the time PSVR would, and Neo would be next year.

But I don't think there's a separate Slim. I think Neo is the Slim, and could come out as early as this year, but TGS would be an odd place to announce it.
 

vpance

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Jun 20, 2005
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Because usually when a slim is made, it's because they're using lower cost materials, and still get a good profit even if they sell it at a low price.

I bet they're planning on replacing the current PS4 with the slim

Seems logical. But I guess their gameplan is to fight Xbox S with Neo and Scorpio with a PS4 Slim.
 

n0razi

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You do realize that Amazon Fire TV only has 8gb of storage. You won't be able to download one disc based game on it.

Even if someone decided to go for an m.2 storage solution, those things cost like $500 for 512gb.

It doesnt have to be that small. you can shrink the current PS4 quite a bit by dropping the disc drive and keeping the 2.5" HDD
 

nhlducks35

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Mar 25, 2012
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You do realize that Amazon Fire TV only has 8gb of storage. You won't be able to download one disc based game on it.

Even if someone decided to go for an m.2 storage solution, those things cost like $500 for 512gb.

 

Infinite Xero

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Aug 6, 2013
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It's already a pretty small console. It's also extremely loud and runs hot. I wonder how much smaller they can get

Like what Microsoft has done with the Xbox One S, Sony could use a newer GPU that is more power efficient (to run cooler and quieter) and downsize it to original PS4 level.
 

WaterAstro

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It doesnt have to be that small. you can shrink the current PS4 quite a bit by dropping the disc drive and keeping the 2.5" HDD

Well I didn't even bother hitting on the digital only idea that is already a proven failure with the PSP Go. Also, it would add to the irony of "more choices" by reducing the choice of having physical media.


I'm not sure what you're pointing out. The Shield Android TV is big enough to fit an SSD as opposed to whatever flash drive Amazon Fire TV uses.
 

Straight Edge

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Jan 21, 2015
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The PS4 "slim" exists so that Sony doesn't go the Holiday season without a UHD capable box to compete with the Xbox S.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Jun 10, 2004
27,927
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The PS4 "slim" exists so that Sony doesn't go the Holiday season without a UHD capable box to compete with the Xbox S.

Probably a bit of this.

Also, personally, the PS4 is ugly. I'd hope a slim is a nicer looking machine.
 

Massa

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Jan 16, 2009
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It's dumb not to have more Neos out there. Sony wants developers onboard with the Neo, and you don't do that by making competition against your own market.

Edit: oh one more thing, if someone buys a Slim and already has a PS4, that's not an additional PS+ subscription.



The PS4 is already light and small, and they can make them cheaper without even changing its size. In fact, changing the case will just make it even more costly, sending them back to the R&D to figure out how to downsize it, then creating extra production lines separate from the original just because someone thinks the original PS4 could be a penny shorter.

The Neo will be an entirely new motherboard altogether, with a new APU on it, built on 14nm instead of 28nm. The new standard "slim" PS4 will most likely be based on it, with a simpler APU or Neo's APU with disabled CU's.

"slim" in this case is most likely symbolic, like the slim Xbox 360 which was mostly the same size but a complete internal redesign. Sony isn't going to kill the PS4 in favor of the Neo and they're not going to make the PS4 on 28nm forever.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Jul 26, 2014
26,222
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Having three different models would get confusing for the average consumer. Companies need to follow the Apple of the old and have a streamlined product line.

I agree.I don't think there will be a slim along side a NEO version.

The main argument for a slim version, cheaper costs for Sony, are basically eliminated if we take in the assumption that using current 16finfet die sizes to shrink down the already existing PS4 APU is not an actual cost saver silicon wise for Sony over simply coming out with a new APU with a stronger and newer component altogether on 16nm.

4K output, UHD BR and HDR color compatibility are functions of the PS4 Southbridge. Are you suggesting that having two different versions of Southbridge is cheaper than one going forward? Using 14nm FinFET to reduce power and die size to make a cheaper PS4 is what they have always done with game consoles. The PS4 NEO is the aberration in using the same or more power and maybe more expensive.
.

So where is your UHD BR and HDR color compatibility announced for normal PS4 now Jeff? We've been listening to your rabble for 3 years and nothing. Is it in limbo with the super 28nm PS3 and 360?
 

WaterAstro

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The Neo will be an entirely new motherboard altogether, with a new APU on it, built on 14nm instead of 28nm. The new standard "slim" PS4 will most likely be based on it, with a simpler APU or Neo's APU with disabled CU's.

"slim" in this case is most likely symbolic, like the slim Xbox 360 which was mostly the same size but a complete internal redesign. Sony isn't going to kill the PS4 in favor of the Neo and they're not going to make the PS4 on 28nm forever.

It doesn't matter what internal changes they are making it, they should not make a third SKU.

They should not market a second PS4 against the Neo. Keep the PS4 the same, do whatever internal tweaks they want to make it cheaper, but don't announce it as something different. Neo should be the focus for Sony's future sales.
 

kenji_sama

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May 25, 2013
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What i found ridiculous is Sony and SE still not announce PS4 custom edition for FFXV. The game is nearly two month to release but the hardware is nowhere to be seen. Maybe they are waiting to reveal new PS4 before this.
 

jeff_rigby

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Aug 7, 2010
3,825
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I agree.I don't think there will be a slim along side a NEO version.

The main argument for a slim version, cheaper costs for Sony, are basically eliminated if we take in the assumption that using current 16finfet die sizes to shrink down the already existing PS4 APU is not an actual cost saver silicon wise for Sony over simply coming out with a new APU with a stronger and newer component altogether on 16nm.

So where is your UHD BR and HDR color compatibility announced for normal PS4 now Jeff? We've been listening to your rabble for 3 years and nothing. Is it in limbo with the super 28nm PS3 and 360?
3 years ago I stated a Media firmware update is coming using Embedded Playready in the PS3 and PS4 which comes at the same time as HTML5 <video>MSE EME and Vidipath. Slightly less than two years ago is my speculation that the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable and the 2013 versions would support UHD Blu-ray. One year ago is my statement that it's no longer speculation which I supported with cites and less than a year ago proof that Microsoft and Sony call the XB1 and PS4 Launch consoles UHD Capable.

There is a Netflix app now listed twice in the PS4 Library with one advertising "Stranger things". If you click on it you go to the Sony PS4 Store where Netflix can be downloaded. The listed size of the Netflix APP is 26.2 MB while the actual size in the PS4 is 1.14 GB. Best guess is they are using the Netflix size post PS4 firmware 4.0 update which is expected when Sony publishes to Netflix the Southbridge APIs using Playready embedded..

The "Super" PS3 and XB1 speculation was based on articles stating a Xbox lite was coming tied to opening of the China market as well as many on NeoGAF stating in no uncertain terms that it was not possible to emulate the Xbox 360 or PS3 on X-86 hardware along with Sony using PS3 hardware for Playstation NOW.

The Xbox 360 Lite rumor even stated it wouldn't be introduced till after Windows 10 and in Hindsight probably meant the August 2, 2016 Windows 10 release which I suspect supports Playready embedded in AMD APU and dGPU ARM Trustzone and eventually UHD media (Streaming and UHD Blu-ray). AMD APUs from 2010 have ARM trustzone blocks which can support DRM for 1080P but only Carrizo can support UHD. Playready ND is required for 1080P and 4k in home media streaming and that requires a ARM TEE or equivalent.

I speculated in 2012 a Xbox 360 and PS3 were coming that used a ARM block similar to the PS4 Southbridge that allowed ARM TEE media DRM and Game Streaming. Part of the reasoning was Microsoft stating the Xbox 360 was being replaced with a Xbox 361 in the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint due to limitations and the thrust of the features which included in home media and game streaming (Vidipath). The 2012 Xbox 361 corresponded to the FCC 2010 mandate that Cable companies support DLNA CVP2 (Vidipath) by June 2012.



Lots of changes since 2012 including Xbox 360 emulation in the Xbox1 which makes a stand alone Xbox 361 at near XB1 Slim prices a non-starter. Despite the PS3 public key being cracked as well as HDMI 1.4, the PS3 is apparently going to support Playready ND for 1080P in home media streaming. This use is apparently the Sony security concern which caused the dropping of Linux support in the PS3.
 

longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
Jun 7, 2004
8,016
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I am with the Neo is the new slim camp.

A new cheaper PS4 may be introduced at a lower price, but not a slim one.
 

Trup1aya

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Jan 18, 2015
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What kind of wizardry would it take to make the Ps4 smaller than it already is?!?!

It would be neat if true
 
May 11, 2008
2,423
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Manchester, England
There is a Netflix app now listed twice in the PS4 Library with one advertising "Stranger things". If you click on it you go to the Sony PS4 Store where Netflix can be downloaded. The listed size of the Netflix APP is 26.2 MB while the actual size in the PS4 is 1.14 GB. Best guess is they are using the Netflix size post PS4 firmware 4.0 update which is expected when Sony publishes to Netflix the Southbridge APIs using Playready embedded..
https://m.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/1qx7l3/the_netflix_app_is_11_gb_0_0/

The Netflix app has used that amount of disk space for nearly three years. It is most likely used as cache for the video that app is streaming.

It's listed twice because it's an advert. They do it with other apps too.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,050
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It doesn't matter what internal changes they are making it, they should not make a third SKU.

They should not market a second PS4 against the Neo. Keep the PS4 the same, do whatever internal tweaks they want to make it cheaper, but don't announce it as something different. Neo should be the focus for Sony's future sales.

Why shouldn't they have a cheap and a premium model? Just wondering why you said they should only be pushing Neo forward.
 

pswii60

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Jun 28, 2006
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It's already a pretty small console. It's also extremely loud and runs hot. I wonder how much smaller they can get
Small height-wise yes, but it's pretty big in terms of width and especially depth. I do hope they can reduce the noise though - both the drive and cooling.
 

jeff_rigby

Banned
Aug 7, 2010
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https://m.reddit.com/r/PS4/comments/1qx7l3/the_netflix_app_is_11_gb_0_0/

The Netflix app has used that amount of disk space for nearly three years. It is most likely used as cache for the video that app is streaming.

It's listed twice because it's an advert. They do it with other apps too.
Netflix on the PS4 does not use the PS4 OS stack and includes within it it's own OS, DRM, codec and browser for the UI. It is using the X-86 hardware not the ARM TEE block in Southbridge. Many are speculating the 1.14 GB size is mostly for hiding the actual working X-86 code.

Netflix will soon be required to use Playready Embedded by content owners for 1080P and at the same time the PS4 ARM TEE can support 4K media DRM and Streaming. When this happens Netflix will be using the PS4 OS stack and the size of the APP will drop.

The speculation that Netflix uses most of the 1.1GB as streaming cache while no other streaming service does so on the PS4 does not make sense.
 

Guess Who

Banned
Oct 21, 2012
10,414
1
0
Netflix on the PS4 does not use the PS4 OS stack and includes within it it's own OS

Yeah. Okay. Netflix wrote its own OS for the PS4 just for their app. Except that the PS4 OS still runs while the Netflix app is running? So, what, is Netflix running its own OS in a virtual machine within the PS4 OS?

Or, maybe - and I think this is the more likely explanation - what you've just said is ridiculous?
 
May 11, 2008
2,423
1
0
Manchester, England
Netflix on the PS4 does not use the PS4 OS stack and includes within it it's own OS, DRM, codec and browser for the UI. It is using the X-86 hardware not the ARM TEE block in Southbridge. Many are speculating the 1.14 GB size is mostly for hiding the actual working X-86 code.

Netflix will soon be required to use Playready Embedded by content owners for 1080P and at the same time the PS4 ARM TEE can support 4K media DRM and Streaming. When this happens Netflix will be using the PS4 OS stack and the size of the APP will drop.

The speculation that Netflix uses most of the 1.1GB as streaming cache while no other streaming service does so on the PS4 does not make sense.
You can just continue spouting as much acronym laden bullshit to try and justify your crackpot theories as you like Jeff. We still don't believe you.
 

WaterAstro

Member
Oct 27, 2015
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Why shouldn't they have a cheap and a premium model? Just wondering why you said they should only be pushing Neo forward.

Because they want to be selling the Neo!

Not like Microsoft. People buying the Slim are more likely not to buy the Scorpio unless they're super rich or super reckless with their money.

Small height-wise yes, but it's pretty big in terms of width and especially depth. I do hope they can reduce the noise though - both the drive and cooling.

No it's plenty small. It's just as small as the PS3 slim, and the Xbox slim is just as comparable with it.

You want noise reduction? Well don't ask for it to be smaller. Noise reduction = bigger and better airflow.
 

Fredrik

Member
Jun 27, 2005
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It's already a pretty small console. It's also extremely loud and runs hot. I wonder how much smaller they can get
My thought too. PS4S - The S is for Silent, that's the only thing PS4 needs at the moment, I've not once thought that it's big.

I'd want a cubic and whisper silent PS4, kind of like GameCube, cubic with the same width/length/height as the bd drive, ssd drive, huge fan at the top.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
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Because they want to be selling the Neo!

They could do both. The customer buying the profitable for Sony but cheaper $249 or less PS4 Slim would probably not wait and buy a more expensive $399 PS4 Neo which is Sony'a premium item. The real issue for me would be launching 3 new HW products in the same year, counting PSVR, all competing for the same user dollars. It would be challenging to find a position for them all, but then again the production volume of PS4 Neo and especially PSVR may not be that high to make it a problem.