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[Cactuarman]

Well that certainly is better than Destructoid's review of Xtreme 3 which called the game sexist and racist. I left Dtoid for a year after that. I actually don't read them anymore now since politics comes up too often for my liking.

I love that checking out Kotaku lead me to this article!

https://cosplay.kotaku.com/how-one-male-cosplayer-became-mai-shiranui-1829161435

That's cool! (I will say I have had an issue with the way Kotaku praised cosplayers in the past while attacking the characters they cosplayed as offensive in other articles. That's some serious cognitive dissonance!)

I noticed that one of the comments on the Xtreme 3 article mentions USGamer becoming cynical and mocking people who like Japanese stuff. Boy, is that true from my experience. Bob Mackey is a writer there (I haven't visited the site in two years so I don't know if he's still there) and he was the most insufferable person in gaming journalism for me. I'm serious. I used to read 1up when he worked there and he called me a pedophile for playing the Hyperdimension Neptunia games.

The last time I read USGamer was his review for Star Ocean 5 where he wrote that censorship should be on the table. I asked him why he thought that in the comments and he acted like it was absurd that sexy characters ever had a place in gaming before telling me to stop caring. Glad to see some others felt that site was mocking this stuff, too.

Going off of your last few posts - yeah I really hate when writers/journalists/commenters/etc. just shut down anyone who challenges them in good faith. To me that's the worst thing you can do. If you have a controversial opinion, fine, but we should at least be able to discuss it in an honest manner. Don't get defensive and assume anyone who disagrees is hysterical or crazy or something. A lot of people would probably consider a lot of my opinions "SJW"-esque, but I also really like fan service and don't want to see art censored. So I've certainly seen defensive reactions from both sides. It's frustrating.

I actually hadn't really heard of Mackey but after a quick google search - wow. "Insufferable" seems like a pretty good word.

 

[CatCouch]

Going off of your last few posts - yeah I really hate when writers/journalists/commenters/etc. just shut down anyone who challenges them in good faith. To me that's the worst thing you can do. If you have a controversial opinion, fine, but we should at least be able to discuss it in an honest manner. Don't get defensive and assume anyone who disagrees is hysterical or crazy or something. A lot of people would probably consider a lot of my opinions "SJW"-esque, but I also really like fan service and don't want to see art censored. So I've certainly seen defensive reactions from both sides. It's frustrating.

I actually hadn't really heard of Mackey but after a quick google search - wow. "Insufferable" seems like a pretty good word.

Yeah, I try pretty hard to back off at times so I don't end up in the same defensive situations. I mean, I'm an artist who draws the type of art so many of these writers argue shouldn't be allowed to exist. I can easily get defensive when I think a writer doesn't understand that the people who like and create the art in these games are, you know, people and not just worthless piles of misogyny or something.

I really do think most people would find common ground and adopt a "live and let live" mentality if we weren't being driven apart by divisive writer, activists and social media mobs. I've been accused of being a SJW and a sexist more than a few times. It's really weird when it overlaps, like when I defend sexy art that has gay or trans themes in it. One side finds the sexy part offensive and the other finds the trans and gay parts to be "agendas". I got that kind of flak a lot with Undertale. I drew a lot of fan art and talked about it before quite a bit. I was deep in that fandom and it was a nightmare, lol~

 

[Scopa]

Well that certainly is better than Destructoid's review of Xtreme 3 which called the game sexist and racist. I left Dtoid for a year after that. I actually don't read them anymore now since politics comes up too often for my liking.

I love that checking out Kotaku lead me to this article!

https://cosplay.kotaku.com/how-one-male-cosplayer-became-mai-shiranui-1829161435

That's cool! (I will say I have had an issue with the way Kotaku praised cosplayers in the past while attacking the characters they cosplayed as offensive in other articles. That's some serious cognitive dissonance!)

I noticed that one of the comments on the Xtreme 3 article mentions USGamer becoming cynical and mocking people who like Japanese stuff. Boy, is that true from my experience. Bob Mackey is a writer there (I haven't visited the site in two years so I don't know if he's still there) and he was the most insufferable person in gaming journalism for me. I'm serious. I used to read 1up when he worked there and he called me a pedophile for playing the Hyperdimension Neptunia games.

The last time I read USGamer was his review for Star Ocean 5 where he wrote that censorship should be on the table. I asked him why he thought that in the comments and he acted like it was absurd that sexy characters ever had a place in gaming before telling me to stop caring. Glad to see some others felt that site was mocking this stuff, too.

Bob Mackey is a manchild that has never grown up. Absolute oxygen waster. The quintessential internet tough guy, yet a pipsqueak in real life.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Yeah... I am aware of bullies and activists, I never said I approved, just that they're always going to be there. My point is that they ultimately a good game is a good game and criticisms by, realistically, a very small minority of people aren't going to change that.

You are too naive and greatly underestimate the SJW influence in culture. The only reason games haven't been overrun by them just like comics did is that the gaming industry is much bigger.

They are a "post-meritocracy" ideology. Your argument about the market regulating what is available would work in a free market environment. But when developers livelihoods and companies are threatened, they are more likely to avoid risks.

Their goal is not to promote what they think it is best, but to remove the options for anything else they don't like.

Pardon the link to a garbage tier media website: Evidence . They managed to get this game removed from PSN. They are going to do the same to anything they disaprove of.

Their goal is not to "criticize" Japanese titty games, but to remove their availability everywhere so you won't even have the option to buy them.

 

[Thiagosc777]

?? Ok, who cares? I never bought a game based on "propaganda" so why would any real gamer care? Do you buy games solely for the political stance of the developer?

No, I don't buy propaganda.

 

[EDMIX]

No, I don't buy propaganda.

I know, you only buy games that fit your beliefs, we know. =) By that logic you might as well start buying the worst games ever made because the developers agree with your views or something lol I never got it when SJW were not buying Uncharted cause it had a white male, still don't get it now.

Good thing I buy games based on fun.... crazy right? I don't get it, but if you game based on that idea no prob.

 

[EDMIX]

You are too naive and greatly underestimate the SJW influence in culture. The only reason games haven't been overrun by them just like comics did is that the gaming industry is much bigger.

They are a "post-meritocracy" ideology. Your argument about the market regulating what is available would work in a free market environment. But when developers livelihoods and companies are threatened, they are more likely to avoid risks.

Their goal is not to promote what they think it is best, but to remove the options for anything else they don't like.

Pardon the link to a garbage tier media website: Evidence . They managed to get this game removed from PSN. They are going to do the same to anything they disaprove of.

Their goal is not to "criticize" Japanese titty games, but to remove their availability everywhere so you won't even have the option to buy them.

I mean...you'll never really know anyone's 100% "influence" on a choice based on art, but then again why on earth would it matter? This is info you'll never really 100% know anyway. You playing to actually play a game or cause the developer agrees with some view of yours?

So you only buy things based on if they share the same view as you? Soooo basically you can read minds or something? LOL You'll never know man, its just such a dumb argument, its ironically the exact SJW argument.

ie agenda, conspiracy, ie lets not buy Uncharted cause white male conspiracy (never mind creative choice, never mind games are for fun) but by all means, lets game based on if someone shares our political or religious view ie something that can basically be unknown.

mean.....for all you know, every game you've ever played has staff that share views you disagree with. Who ever built your computer probably has someone at their company that believes that too, better stop using computers too /s
Were does it end? Why do you even game if someone else view can stop you from playing a game? Did you not realize you'd never really know all the views of the people that even make the things you enjoy?

Sounds silly and immature to me, but what do I know...I game for fun after all.

 

[Thiagosc777]

I know, you only buy games that fit your beliefs, ....

Go outside, take a deep breath.

I buy whatever I feel like it. It's my money. And I choose to support developers who create fun games. I am not interested in propaganda.

You know what, go out and buy two copies of The Last of Us 2 to compensate for the one I am not going to get if that bothers you so much.

 

[Lionel Richie]

I really do think most people would find common ground and adopt a "live and let live" mentality if we weren't being driven apart by divisive writer, activists and social media mobs. I've been accused of being a SJW and a sexist more than a few times. It's really weird when it overlaps, like when I defend sexy art that has gay or trans themes in it. One side finds the sexy part offensive and the other finds the trans and gay parts to be "agendas". I got that kind of flak a lot with Undertale. I drew a lot of fan art and talked about it before quite a bit. I was deep in that fandom and it was a nightmare, lol~

I think I've posted this opinion a have quite a few times, but I think that people aren't simply annoyed by an idea, they get annoyed at an idea of an idea that's usually dictated by who is in the other group. When you post something that could be taken as sexism by someone that really wants to find sexism on what you said, even it's only slightly so, that person probably imagines you as a MAGA hatter oppressive Pepe poster and that makes him/her take your opinion on that ground. As if you had already committed some kind of prior transgression that makes what you're saying bigger than it actually is. Similar thing happens when you post something that could be seen as a leftist agenda, you're a Tumblr danger hair cuck in the eyes of that person and you're going to get treated like that.

And I say that from personal experience. I had both of these thoughts in my head during different times in my life. Anything right, you're a bigot. Anything left, you're an asshole. Eventually I outgrew that when I realized group mentality doesn't help anyone. People are individuals, not collective attributions you can pin on them.

Edit: I actually had a great time reading this thread, it's been mostly well argued and reasonable. Shout-out to the mods for allowing it, this is an interesting discussion.

 

[EDMIX]

Yeah, I try pretty hard to back off at times so I don't end up in the same defensive situations. I mean, I'm an artist who draws the type of art so many of these writers argue shouldn't be allowed to exist. I can easily get defensive when I think a writer doesn't understand that the people who like and create the art in these games are, you know, people and not just worthless piles of misogyny or something.

I really do think most people would find common ground and adopt a "live and let live" mentality if we weren't being driven apart by divisive writer, activists and social media mobs. I've been accused of being a SJW and a sexist more than a few times. It's really weird when it overlaps, like when I defend sexy art that has gay or trans themes in it. One side finds the sexy part offensive and the other finds the trans and gay parts to be "agendas". I got that kind of flak a lot with Undertale. I drew a lot of fan art and talked about it before quite a bit. I was deep in that fandom and it was a nightmare, lol~

Exactly. The way I see it is, when ever someone ask what a artist is allowed or not allowed to have in their work, the answer is always the same.

WHAT EVER THE FUCK THEY WANT!

Accept freedom of expression and move on or buy it or don't buy it. That simple, but you have folks that seriously try to argue what someone else can or can't do in their artistic work. So as an artist I feel someone having religious or political etc concepts in their work as fair game, nothing is really off limits and if someone doesn't like that, they are free to buy something else.

 

[EDMIX]

Go outside, take a deep breath.

I buy whatever I feel like it. It's my money. And I choose to support developers who create fun games. I am not interested in propaganda.

You know what, go out and buy two copies of The Last of Us 2 to compensate for the one I am not going to get if that bothers you so much.

"I choose to support developers who create fun games" Well not really, not if you are also saying you won't if it has what you see as um "propaganda".....

Soooo you'd never really know what is fun or not if you are not even playing it based on this belief bud.

I mean this bothers you enough that you are not buying the game solely off of a belief of a developer.

I buy games based on fun and fun ONLY. Nothing else.

 

[DigitalScrap]

The thing I don't get about any of the "sides" in this whole perceived culture war (as if any of the sides represent even a small percentage of the actual majority) is why do they try to make humans so binary? Why does it have to be with "us" or with "them"? It's so odd how everyone has to complete a long checklist of being for or against a multitude of things. Why is it that someone can be in agreement on 10 out of 15 things but because we disagree on the other 5 that someone is instantly unworthy of existing?

I'm sorry, but life, experience, and societal exposure are not binary. Everyone's life experience is different, even if we have to get down to the minutia to find the differences. None of us are exactly alike. Why can't we share common causes and discuss our differences? Why do things have to be so absolute? Do I have to check every single box that someone else has deemed required to be a good liberal? Do I have to agree with every fucked up trade agreement to be deemed a good fiscal conservative? Can I not be a social liberal and a fiscal conservative and not claim myself to be a libertarian?

Is it not odd that people who claim to celebrate diversity don't like people who are not like them socially? Is it not strange that people who hate diversity will accept anyone who hates the same people they do, even though they are not like them?

It's funny, but the people who are attempting to be arbiters of who is who, and what is acceptable, need to spend some time to figure out who they are and what they stand for, rather than telling everyone else who they are and what they believe.

That rant is bigger than gaming, but it definitely also applies in the small microcosm of humanity that is gaming

I'm tired of all of this arguing in the name of a falsely perceived intelligence. I'm sorry, but these people (all of them - all sides) are simply ignorant to what it means to be human (and some of them are likely simply stupid.).

People who deal in absolutes (especially ones they themselves invented) are not worth the time.

 

[CatCouch]

Exactly. The way I see it is, when ever someone ask what a artist is allowed or not allowed to have in their work, the answer is always the same.

WHAT EVER THE FUCK THEY WANT!

Accept freedom of expression and move on or buy it or don't buy it. That simple, but you have folks that seriously try to argue what someone else can or can't do in their artistic work. So as an artist I feel someone having religious or political etc concepts in their work as fair game, nothing is really off limits and if someone doesn't like that, they are free to buy something else.

You should tell that to some of the people who have criticized my art!

Fun fact: the person who put this "sexism bingo card" together tried to get me to stop drawing my art. They brought sexism, racism, homophobia and transphobia up trying to persuade me to stop drawing sexy women. The picture they took issue with was a pin-up commission I did of Anna Williams from Tekken because they didn't like the anatomy (which I agreed was messed up as I had to change the pose numerous times for the commissioner).

If you look closely at the bingo card you can see there are not a lot of ways to not be sexist. They even put the word creative in quotations like it's not applicable to art, lol. It's weird how far some will go to insult art whether it be illustrators themselves, games, comics or what-not.

I say, if you want art to be taken seriously you have to accept it. Don't like something? Fine, but don't try to destroy it and expect people to respect you. I see that a lot in the game journalism, unfortunately.

I totally agree with you! I may voice my critiques of games I'm not happy with but I don't spend too much time on games (or any art/entertainment) I don't like. I put most my time and all my money towards things I like, I wish more people did the same~

 

[Cactuarman]

You are too naive and greatly underestimate the SJW influence in culture. The only reason games haven't been overrun by them just like comics did is that the gaming industry is much bigger.

They are a "post-meritocracy" ideology. Your argument about the market regulating what is available would work in a free market environment. But when developers livelihoods and companies are threatened, they are more likely to avoid risks.

Their goal is not to promote what they think it is best, but to remove the options for anything else they don't like.

Pardon the link to a garbage tier media website: Evidence . They managed to get this game removed from PSN. They are going to do the same to anything they disaprove of.

Their goal is not to "criticize" Japanese titty games, but to remove their availability everywhere so you won't even have the option to buy them.

Well, I think you are hyperbolic and oversimplifying. But fair enough. I understand the frustration that you can't buy Super Seducer (not being sarcastic here, this would have made a great party game) and I don't agree with the decision to take it down. So I'm with you there. But I really don't think that most SJWs want to remove your ability to buy Japanese titty games. But I can't prove that so maybe you're right.

In your comment you mention comics and also Super Seducer - so the comic example revolves around the diversification of lead characters (I assume anyway as you haven't really clarified what "overrun" refers to). Super Seducer refers to the removal of content from an online store. So it seems to me at the very least we can say that there are multiple goals and not just "their goal." We also might assume that there are different SJW groups perhaps.

Ultimately I think I just want a few more specifics. At what point would you say that video games had been "overrun"? Is it a specific point? Or just a feeling you would have? "Their goal"? As I said there seems to be a couple goals at the very least. Does it vary by industry? Also, "avoid risks"? What risks are being avoided?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[autoduelist]

be "agenda" ..

I'm deleting the majority of your post because I have absolutely zero issue with the theme in question and don't want to seem like I might. That said, you are being incredibly obtuse about what agenda is. Abortions exist, but try to create a tv plot about abortion that doesn't put forth an agenda one way or the other. It's impossible. Even if you try to split the middle and not take a strong stance, that itself is an agenda and you probably should have avoided the subject in the first place.

You are straight up blind to the fact that media portrayals of pretty much anything is agenda driven. Present cops as perfect good guys? Agenda. Present cops as racist and corrupt? Agenda. Just because good cops and bad cops both exist doesn't mean media portraying them isn't agenda driven and/or propaganda.

Like, man, I'm glad Ellie is who she is and I can't wait for tlou2. But if you think media like that isn't pushing political viewpoints, you seriously need to sit down and take some classes in critical thinking and media studies. Of course it is. You might be perfectly fine with the agenda, but that doesn't mean it isn't an agenda.

The public's viewpoints on many issues have changed dramatically over the past few decades. While the internet poured gasoline on it and has accelerated it, these massive cultural shifts were in large part driven by a media with an agenda. Now, personally, I'm happy with many of those shifts. But acting like there's no such thing as agenda is ridiculous.

 

[EDMIX]

I'm deleting the majority of your post because I have absolutely zero issue with the theme in question and don't want to seem like I might. That said, you are being incredibly obtuse about what agenda is. Abortions exist, but try to create a tv plot about abortion that doesn't put forth an agenda one way or the other. It's impossible. Even if you try to split the middle and not take a strong stance, that itself is an agenda and you probably should have avoided the subject in the first place.

You are straight up blind to the fact that media portrayals of pretty much anything is agenda driven. Present cops as perfect good guys? Agenda. Present cops as racist and corrupt? Agenda. Just because good cops and bad cops both exist doesn't mean media portraying them isn't agenda driven and/or propaganda.

Like, man, I'm glad Ellie is who she is and I can't wait for tlou2. But if you think media like that isn't pushing political viewpoints, you seriously need to sit down and take some classes in critical thinking and media studies. Of course it is. You might be perfectly fine with the agenda, but that doesn't mean it isn't an agenda.

The public's viewpoints on many issues have changed dramatically over the past few decades. While the internet poured gasoline on it and has accelerated it, these massive cultural shifts were in large part driven by a media with an agenda. Now, personally, I'm happy with many of those shifts. But acting like there's no such thing as agenda is ridiculous.

With that logic, you might as well play nothing and watch nothing. Way too subjective as any tinfoil hat can view anything that way.

Soooooo I don't care what the developers believe, I care if its a fun game. Its like asking if order food, that you must know if the cook has the same religious or political views before you eat or something lol

Good luck with that mess. Folks are free to believe what they want, so if everything is a "agenda" don't play anything..... think of it this way, at least you won't support any "agenda", I mean you'd be pretty bored, but keep fighting the good fight warrior. lol =)

 

[EDMIX]

You should tell that to some of the people who have criticized my art!

Fun fact: the person who put this "sexism bingo card" together tried to get me to stop drawing my art. They brought sexism, racism, homophobia and transphobia up trying to persuade me to stop drawing sexy women. The picture they took issue with was a pin-up commission I did of Anna Williams from Tekken because they didn't like the anatomy (which I agreed was messed up as I had to change the pose numerous times for the commissioner).

If you look closely at the bingo card you can see there are not a lot of ways to not be sexist. They even put the word creative in quotations like it's not applicable to art, lol. It's weird how far some will go to insult art whether it be illustrators themselves, games, comics or what-not.

I say, if you want art to be taken seriously you have to accept it. Don't like something? Fine, but don't try to destroy it and expect people to respect you. I see that a lot in the game journalism, unfortunately.

I totally agree with you! I may voice my critiques of games I'm not happy with but I don't spend too much time on games (or any art/entertainment) I don't like. I put most my time and all my money towards things I like, I wish more people did the same~

"I say, if you want art to be taken seriously you have to accept it. Don't like something? Fine, but don't try to destroy it and expect people to respect you. I see that a lot in the game journalism, unfortunately"

1000% agreed!!!!

Its as if folks don't get freedom of expression. Its like trying to argue about the existence of a religious book like "it pushes a agenda BRO" Annnnnnnnnnnd who cares? Don't buy it....

Very simple, but seems like some folks have a hard time excepting that. Be like "religious person, must be agenda" "POC must be agenda" "gay person, must be agenda" so basically nothing can ever be anything in anything without secret agenda conspiracy (Ancient Aliens guy) LMFAO!

I'm still trying to figure out that end game, be like "POC in game today, WORLD DOMINATION TOMORROW" lol

 

[DigitalScrap]

Soooooo I don't care what the developers believe, I care if its a fun game. Its like asking if order food, that you must know if the cook has the same religious or political views before you eat or something lol

This is great. Seriously, it must be exhausting to always wonder what a given person feels about various issues before consuming their product.

 

[CatCouch]

"I say, if you want art to be taken seriously you have to accept it. Don't like something? Fine, but don't try to destroy it and expect people to respect you. I see that a lot in the game journalism, unfortunately"

1000% agreed!!!!

Its as if folks don't get freedom of expression. Its like trying to argue about the existence of a religious book like "it pushes a agenda BRO" Annnnnnnnnnnd who cares? Don't buy it....

Very simple, but seems like some folks have a hard time excepting that. Be like "religious person, must be agenda" "POC must be agenda" "gay person, must be agenda" so basically nothing can ever be anything in anything without secret agenda conspiracy (Ancient Aliens guy) LMFAO!

I'm still trying to figure out that end game, be like "POC in game today, WORLD DOMINATION TOMORROW" lol

Exactly! Freedom of expression is a two way street. You need to tolerate what you don't like if you want others to tolerate what you do.

I hate seeing people act like gay or black characters are "agendas" and I hate seeing people argue white characters or sexy women are offensive. Both come off a subtle forms of bigotry to me depending on the context of the poster. It's all on the table for rational discussion but I do see enough people using these claims in bad faith that I roll my eyes. People who complain about sexy women in games but make it appear they actually have a problem with the men who like it is one example. People who argue gay characters are pandering or an agenda when their argument seems rooted in homophobia is another.

I seriously had a conversation with someone who called Dead or Alive a "straight space" after I suggested they increase the amount of fan service for the guys. I don't even know what to say to that one, I feel like I'm in "Poe's law" territory. I don't think it was a joke. 0.o

 

[EDMIX]

This is great. Seriously, it must be exhausting to always wonder what a given person feels about various issues before consuming their product.

Iol exactly. Its like, is it good...is it safe annnnnnnd don't care. If someone really buys everything based on if they agree with the person's beliefs, they'd have a hard time doing MOST things.

 

[RedVIper]

Iol exactly. Its like, is it good...is it safe annnnnnnd don't care. If someone really buys everything based on if they agree with the person's beliefs, they'd have a hard time doing MOST things.

I think a better example would be if you went to MacDonalds and the guy wouldn't make your Big Mac because his co workers are vegan. It's fine for people to have beliefs, I think the issue people have is that game journalists bully and ostracize Game Developers until they "change" their beliefs to fit whatever they want.

Any for of media will always have an "agenda", I'm pretty sure the argument isn't if you need to agree with the political statements of a game to enjoy it, the matter is if those statements are being made because the developer believes in them or if they were pressured by gaming journalists to make them.

 

[OldBoyGamer]

"Lara Croft is a white savior, you should feel guilty!"

"I have a problem with Spider-Man because he helps the cops!"

"Kingdom Come is too white!"

Its a good thing these fake game journos are quickly losing credibility.

Sorry. Are those actual quotes? And if so, I need links because at the moment, I really don't believe you.

 

[Scopa]

Sorry. Are those actual quotes? And if so, I need links because at the moment, I really don't believe you.

 

[Bwesh]

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/they-turned-spider-man-into-a-damn-cop-and-it-sucks-1828944087
http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2018/09/12/spider-mans-take-on-police-feels-out-of-touch

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-02-20-kingdom-come-deliverance-review

Complaining about no people of color in a video game about a small 16 square kilometer area of rural Bohemia in the early 15th century. When they have a lot of historians who said there's not enough evidence of it at that time.

Those are the easiest to find since the Spidey game just got released. The Tomb Raider one I think is for the movie that came out.

 

[CatCouch]

Sorry. Are those actual quotes? And if so, I need links because at the moment, I really don't believe you.

I'm not sure if those are direct quotes, likely just exaggerated statements meant to mock, but I have seen articles/reviews about all three of those.

I've seen 3 articles about the Spider-Man cop issue. This is the first one I saw: https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/they-turned-spider-man-into-a-damn-cop-and-it-sucks-1828944087

Kotaku has one too. I didn't read it, though.

Edit: looks like someone beat me to it!

I'm not sre which article had the Tomb Raider savior thing in it but I did hear it mentioned before. Waypoint went on about colonialism or something. I won't read it but this is the Metacritic blurb about their review. You can judge for yourself:

"No matter how much Lara changes in the course of this adventure, she's still an instrument of hegemony. This world remains a constructed fantasy, one designed specifically for her...Tomb Raider is and will always be Lara Croft’s playground. And as uninteresting and fundamentally regressive as Lara’s tale is, that’s the only story that this franchise can tell."

 

[OldBoyGamer]

I'm not sure if those are direct quotes, likely just exaggerated statements meant to mock, but I have seen articles/reviews about all three of those.

I've seen 3 articles about the Spider-Man cop issue. This is the first one I saw: https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/they-turned-spider-man-into-a-damn-cop-and-it-sucks-1828944087

Kotaku has one too. I didn't read it, though.

Edit: looks like someone beat me to it!

I'm not sre which article had the Tomb Raider savior thing in it but I did hear it mentioned before. Waypoint went on about colonialism or something. I won't read it but this is the Metacritic blurb about their review. You can judge for yourself:

"No matter how much Lara changes in the course of this adventure, she's still an instrument of hegemony. This world remains a constructed fantasy, one designed specifically for her...Tomb Raider is and will always be Lara Croft’s playground. And as uninteresting and fundamentally regressive as Lara’s tale is, that’s the only story that this franchise can tell."

Thanks for that. I'm from the UK and I do wonder if this is more an American thing? I don't come across it too much but then I don't really read many online reviews these days, which is odd because, back in the 80's and 90's I would spend a small fortune buying 3, 4 mags a month.

These days, if I'm interested in a game, I use a mix of a couple of reviews from some favourite sites, I look for posts on my most used forums and I might watch a bit of YT if it's not a story driven game.

The only one that i did come across was the Kingdom Come furore. I spent quite a bit of time reading up about what went down and found it very difficult to come to a conclusion. From what i saw, a game which uses historical authenticity as justification to populate the game world with white characters got a bit of negative press. But this seemed to stem more from the behaviour of the lead design guy tbh. So I looked at his stuff and it seemed like he was just a very outspoken guy. But, from what i saw, he never actually said anything overtly racist or sexist - I could be wrong though. It could be just that I didn't find those quotes from him.

In general, I'm shielded from this kind of nonsense though because I don't give much credence to any single journalist or review. I don't have a 'favourite' reviewer for example. And when I talk about my 'favourite' web site, forum etc? Even then, I don't give them much credence - Eurogamer as an example I quite like but I know that some of their content is not inline with my own thoughts and opinions. Doesn't really bother me. Neogaf is another example - I read poster's reviews and opinions and I take them for what they are - their opinions. I like to dissagree with them sometimes because I enjoy a good debate. But I never take them seriously.

I wonder if this is a difference between older and younger people? My expectation is that younger people give more credence to journo's and YT'ers etc than older people do?

 

[OldBoyGamer]

Apologies for the second post, but I wanted to seperate this question out:

How much of this are we ourselves responsible for? When we share this kind of content, regardless of our reasons for sharing it, are we adding fuel to the fire? There's a nasty piece of work in the UK who makes her living out of saying outrageous things on TV and in newspapers and on SN. I never click a link that has anything to do with her and in that way, I have become less and less exposed to what she has to say. In the end, if enough people starve her of the oxygen to share her opinions, she dies. (as in editorially wise not in real life).

I feel the same about this kind of stuff. Ignore the BS. Literally, ignore it. starve it of oxygen. And it will die.

 

[InterMusketeer]

I really don't buy the "just ignore it!" argument.

Have you seen what (mostly) ignoring these people has achieved? First they were able to rise to the top, then put in the position where they have real influence on games. Censored games, bullied developers and attempts to character assassinate them and content creators, people put in charge of games and franchises who are unfit for the job; A few of their sins have already been posted in this thread.

Even if I never click on a link or never vist their site (which I didn't do in the first place) that doesn't make their influence go away. Obviously other people are clicking and watching them. Heck, just look at ResetEra. I don't like to bring them up (it happens all too often on this forum) but a few crazies are able to control (one of) the most popular gaming forums. They're called a vocal minority for a reason.

The only way we have to counter this movement is to let our voices be heard as well, which is why we have editorials like the one we're discussing (loosely) in this thread, and other responses to ridiculous articles, reviews, request and criticism. I really don't see any other way to push back against what I perceive as an injustice.

 

[petran79]

I'm not sre which article had the Tomb Raider savior thing in it but I did hear it mentioned before. Waypoint went on about colonialism or something. I won't read it but this is the Metacritic blurb about their review. You can judge for yourself:

"No matter how much Lara changes in the course of this adventure, she's still an instrument of hegemony. This world remains a constructed fantasy, one designed specifically for her...Tomb Raider is and will always be Lara Croft’s playground. And as uninteresting and fundamentally regressive as Lara’s tale is, that’s the only story that this franchise can tell."

But if Tomb Raider became like Dreamfall and The Longest Journey, they'd complain about bad and boring gameplay

 

[Thiagosc777]

Ultimately I think I just want a few more specifics. At what point would you say that video games had been "overrun"? Is it a specific point? Or just a feeling you would have? "Their goal"? As I said there seems to be a couple goals at the very least. Does it vary by industry? Also, "avoid risks"? What risks are being avoided?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

This has happened in games for years and in other media as well. In comics, conservative creators have been chased out of their jobs because they supported Trump (see Ethan Van Sciver for example). Marvel and DC are pretty much SJW now, companies from a "post-meritocracy" environment, where people are hired by how they look and not by the quality of their work.

Gaming would be completely overrun when developers, either individuals or companies, who are not politically aligned with SJWs are silenced, thus removing any diversity of thought from gaming. From that point onwards, anyone willing to work in games would have to fall in line. And anyone willing to play games, would have to content themselves with American political propaganda.

We see some of it right now, like for example in Battlefield V. Not only they are pushing "diversity" in WW2, but they attack fans who don't like the shift in their focus.

Social Justice is Marxism by another name. It relies on the idea of "class struggle" and that everyone is either part of the oppressed or the oppressors (see identity politics). The real problem with that ideology is that it doesn't account for personal agency or responsibilty, thus they have to steer society in the direction of their beliefs.

The only way to do it is through removing people's choice. If the market is free to decide what it wants or not, they can't enforce one political view over another.

 

[JohannCK]

So given that most of the sites out there seem to be shit, has anyone found any good games websites? Ones that tell you about the game, not the social issues?

Well, I write for Frontline Gaming Japan and as far as I can tell we don't write about anything political!

 

[MayauMiao]

So given that most of the sites out there seem to be shit, has anyone found any good games websites? Ones that tell you about the game, not the social issues?

Dualshockers.com is good. Their article is short and on point about games. They cover Japanese games too.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I'm not sure if those are direct quotes, likely just exaggerated statements meant to mock, but I have seen articles/reviews about all three of those.

I've seen 3 articles about the Spider-Man cop issue. This is the first one I saw: https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/they-turned-spider-man-into-a-damn-cop-and-it-sucks-1828944087

Kotaku has one too. I didn't read it, though.

Edit: looks like someone beat me to it!

I'm not sre which article had the Tomb Raider savior thing in it but I did hear it mentioned before. Waypoint went on about colonialism or something. I won't read it but this is the Metacritic blurb about their review. You can judge for yourself:

"No matter how much Lara changes in the course of this adventure, she's still an instrument of hegemony. This world remains a constructed fantasy, one designed specifically for her...Tomb Raider is and will always be Lara Croft’s playground. And as uninteresting and fundamentally regressive as Lara’s tale is, that’s the only story that this franchise can tell."

Complaining about Spider-Man helping cops? Is this real? Now it’s just getting extremely petty like they are running out of things to complain and they are just cherry picking random things.

Also doax3 was considered racist? Why? No Lisa?

 

[deriks]

As a journalist I say that this is not a "journalist" problem, but a easily ofended-bitching around people problem.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Dualshockers.com is good. Their article is short and on point about games. They cover Japanese games too.

The old mod guard here used to hate dualshockers and it was a blocked site.

Does anyone know why? They always seemed to be a benign and to the point gaming site to me.

 

[MayauMiao]

The old mod guard here used to hate dualshockers and it was a blocked site.

Does anyone know why? They always seemed to be a benign and to the point gaming site to me.

Dualshockers editor called out the agenda driven gaming site way before OneAngryGamer. As you know, SJW mods don't take too kindly towards anyone going against their agendas.

https://www.dualshockers.com/bayone...t-example-of-whats-wrong-with-modern-reviews/

 

[DeepEnigma]

Dualshockers editor called out the agenda driven gaming site way before OneAngryGamer. As you know, SJW mods don't take too kindly towards anyone going against their agendas.

https://www.dualshockers.com/bayone...t-example-of-whats-wrong-with-modern-reviews/

That explains everything. Spineless.

 

[hariseldon]

That dualshockers article is well-written and quite a sensible account of where we've got to. I'll be visiting regularly.

 

[ROMhack]

I must admit, I kind of agree with the Polygon point about the over-sexualisation of Bayonetta. However, I also agree with the guy who responded in that Dualshockers article when he says:

I won’t spend a lot paragraphs defending Bayonetta 2‘s sexy imagery, because to be completely honest, it doesn’t need to be defended. It’s part of the character and of the franchise. It’s expressed with joy and irreverent strength in a positive celebration of beauty and allure, and demanding or expecting a Bayonetta without it makes as much sense as wanting Call of Duty without guns (with the difference that those that criticize sexual imagery in games tend to have absolutely no problem with violence and assorted slaughter).

Basically there's nothing wrong with the Polygon reviewer pointing it out, or even taking issue with it, but it's the degree to which they then are or are not able to put their personal feelings aside.

Again, Dualshockers guy makes a good point when he says:

The problem is deeper and is starting to take deep roots in modern reviews. Authors are departing from the idea of giving their readers a fair assessment of a game’s quality, and are increasingly using reviews as their personal soapbox, or as a high horse on which to sit to educate the allegedly unschooled gaming masses on whatever personal agenda they happen to support, and to “punish” those game developer that happen to produce games that don’t fit said agendas.

I feel the issue is that reviewers want to be critics. It's just they aren't really in the right place to do so. I kind of sympathise but there's arrogance in persisting (and I don't think editors help).

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

I thought DualShockers were PS4 console warriors, some articles of them I read now seem to be fairly and just.

Anything else who is longer on their site can provide info and feedback on them?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I thought DualShockers were PS4 console warriors, some articles of them I read now seem to be fairly and just.

Anything else who is longer on their site can provide info and feedback on them?

I use Dualshockers, Gematsu, and Siliconera for all of my game news. Dualshockers is solid.

Because they cover a lot of Japanese releases and news, I think this naturally slants them toward Sony's and Nintendo's platforms, but I haven't noticed any blatant PS4 "console warrior" nonsense.

 

[Fuz]

Dualshockers editor called out the agenda driven gaming site way before OneAngryGamer. As you know, SJW mods don't take too kindly towards anyone going against their agendas.

https://www.dualshockers.com/bayone...t-example-of-whats-wrong-with-modern-reviews/

Good article.

 

[OldBoyGamer]

I really don't buy the "just ignore it!" argument.

Have you seen what (mostly) ignoring these people has achieved? First they were able to rise to the top, then put in the position where they have real influence on games. Censored games, bullied developers and attempts to character assassinate them and content creators, people put in charge of games and franchises who are unfit for the job; A few of their sins have already been posted in this thread.

Even if I never click on a link or never vist their site (which I didn't do in the first place) that doesn't make their influence go away. Obviously other people are clicking and watching them. Heck, just look at ResetEra. I don't like to bring them up (it happens all too often on this forum) but a few crazies are able to control (one of) the most popular gaming forums. They're called a vocal minority for a reason.

The only way we have to counter this movement is to let our voices be heard as well, which is why we have editorials like the one we're discussing (loosely) in this thread, and other responses to ridiculous articles, reviews, request and criticism. I really don't see any other way to push back against what I perceive as an injustice.

I cant agree with that. What gets journalists to the top is a mix of publicity (self made or not), sheer number of people reading their content + a certain amount of arse kissing. As long as writing editorial content that causes some kind of outrage results in 'reads' and exposure and 'shares', that type of content is not only encouraged but is then actively used. That's not even just an opinion, it's fact. Starve a celebrity of fame and they literally go away.

You've also missed the point slightly - it's not JUST YOU ignoring them, it's us as a community.

Don't forget that we're not talking about nazi's killing people on the streets. We're talking about self publicising journalists talking about video games. You CAN ignore them. No-one will die. No-one gets shot. The world won't end.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Don't forget that we're not talking about nazi's killing people on the streets. We're talking about self publicising journalists talking about video games. You CAN ignore them. No-one will die. No-one gets shot. The world won't end.

Only a developer's reputation may die and that of any fan who choose to defend him. And then we would see a string of hit pieces written in collusion across several websites supporting that first journalist and starting a campaign accusing the developer and his fans of being alt-right Nazi Trump supporter misogynist bigots.

They need to be exposed. Ignoring is not enough.

 

[OldBoyGamer]

Only a developer's reputation may die and that of any fan who choose to defend him. And then we would see a string of hit pieces written in collusion across several websites supporting that first journalist and starting a campaign accusing the developer and his fans of being alt-right Nazi Trump supporter misogynist bigots.

They need to be exposed. Ignoring is not enough.

Whilst I understand the sentiment, to expose them leads to to exposure which equals a good thing for them. I'm afraid that's just the way it works.

I feel you look at Kingdom come, that's a really good example where players said 'you're talking bollocks and we're buying this product'.

I don't hear many people talking about the 'controversy' any more.

 

[PedroPanache]

In terms of The Last of Us 2, we're entering a phase in the industry, where the level of sophistication in animation and graphical fidelity is allowing for more nuanced storytelling and developers are starting to take advantage of this more and more. Unless you're David Cage, of course. Anyway, it's exciting to see mainstream video games embrace queer culture and attempt to tell stories that are inclusive to that end. I like to see new ideas and video games should be pushing boundaries and making their audience uncomfortable. It's the been the role of cinema for years. If you don't like that agenda, then you're obviously free to not buy the game, but with modern stories in video games looking to go toe to toe with cinema, the discussion evolves beyond just how fun a game is, and gives rise to the idea of a video game critic as opposed to the more traditional notion of a review, where it splits the game into five or so categories, and marks it as such. I see much of modern video game criticism in the same sense that I see movie criticism; . There's also still room for the more traditional review, to serve that specific audience. They will co-exist together, because clearly there's demand for both.

I wouldn't deny myself watching something directed by Clint Eastwood, just because I don't agree with his conservative agenda, which bleeds into his films, and I won't deny myself playing video games that similarly fall into categories that I don't necessarily agree with. The Last Night springs to mind, whatever you're opinion of the guy, I don't think it does anyone any good to berate and beat the guy into submission with a tsunami of angry twitter remarks. I'll judge his game for myself. I don't to be ideologically aligned with him to play his game. I tend to compartmentalise story and gameplay, and judge games, or at the least the ones that demand that separation, in that capacity.

 

[odhin]

Who thinks gaming journo doesn't change some (or alot) of the originally planned content in games by the devs is in complete denial. Im sorry, but there are so many examples of that out there on the open that that's the conclusion I get.

Having that said, does that make me wanna boycott (as in, not buy) a game that has that censorship / "political agenda" attached to it? Maybe, it depends of how thats gonna ruin my experience of it.

For example, Naughty Dog's newest "inclinations" are obvious. Not so much because of the girls kissing trailer - even though that scene was a not so subtle way of saying "LOOK MA, WE R SO PROGRESSIVE NOW!" but I personnally didn't mind that all - BUT the constant praise of Miss Anita by Druckmann is kinda baffling in my eyes. How can anyone stand that person is something I'm never going to understand. Am I still going to buy TLOU2 despite of that? F*K YES. The first one was my GotG and I'm still as excited as ever for the sequel.

 

[infinitys_7th]

lol funny, but not really all that true. Read about Japan in terms of features altered or changed in games based on public feedback. So I'd say just as much changes in games in Japan based on outside influence as much as anyway else to be honest.

Most of that is based on feedback from people who actually play and value the games, rather than the bloggers masquerading as journalists forming up Nerd Crews and shilling Geek Boxes.

 

[danielberg]

They are basically trying to undermine and poison every entertainment construct they can get their hands on, they are brainwashed college kids that drive an agenda and that work for basically nothing which is how they get into everything, stupid companies hire them cause they are cheap (not knowing they will lose over time more money) and then shit starts as seen with marvel comics for example.
This is so in your face that anyone pretending its not a thing is immediately suspicious to me, yes i am that paranoid at this point lol

 

[CatCouch]

They are basically trying to undermine and poison every entertainment construct they can get their hands on, they are brainwashed college kids that drive an agenda and that work for basically nothing which is how they get into everything, stupid companies hire them cause they are cheap (not knowing they will lose over time more money) and then shit starts as seen with marvel comics for example.
This is so in your face that anyone pretending its not a thing is immediately suspicious to me, yes i am that paranoid at this point lol

Dang, that's some pretty intense stuff. It sure wasn't like this when I was in college.

I just can't see it succeeding if it stays on a negative and hostile path. Taking options away from me like removing sexy outfits and what-not just means I won't spend my money. Capcom is giving me sexy outfits to spend my money on SFV so I will. That's good.

I can applaud some of this when it's used in a positive way like including more minorities and gay people in games but I don't see that nearly as much as I see attempts to remove about what I already like in games. I want to see sexy gay minorities in games! Unfortunately I think the stuff posted above will just lead to more dull and less appealing games since I get the impression they look at games as a giant block of toxicity that they want to chip away at instead of add to.