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Opinion: The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray

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SOR5

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I will follow him.


 

jeff_rigby

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Indeed. I've pointed out before the 4K blu-ray DRM literally cannot be implemented in software, and is not Playready. Said security spec was not even finished until nearly two years after the PS4 was released. It is not happening.
Please expand "Said Security spec" is what? Have you actually read the parts of the Mount Fuji book 8 & 9 differences I mentioned? Drive requirements were listed by me here. Officially UHD Capable takes care of all the hardware requirements, everything else is software.

The Mount Fuji Commands for Multi-media devices is a book with the industry accepted commands for drives. It covers everything needed by drive manufacturers and people using the drives and has references. The changes from book 8 prior to UHD blu-ray and book 9 which covers UHD Blu-ray is the following page. Changing the firmware in a drive to comply with book 9 makes it a UHD drive. BDXL drives can read a version 2 disk which is what UHD disks use. BD-ROM disks need a firmware update to read 33GB/layer and the reliability issues this creates. There is encryption from drive to player over the USB or eSATA which even the PS3 supports. Encryption for media on disk (AACS2) which has nothing to do with the drive, BD+ support which even the PS3 supports and several additional changes adding support for exchanges between the drive and player.
ftp://ftp.seagate.com/sff/INF-8090.PDF said:
H-8 Changes from Mt. Fuji 8 to Mt. Fuji 9
1. BDA proposal was posted on ftp.avc-pioneer.com/Mtfuji_9/Proposal/Jul14/BD_commands_v140_150604.pdf.
2. References for BD specifications and MMC slandered were updated in Section 1.0, "Introduction" on page 55.
3. Section 3.0, "BD model" on page 83 was updated to include BD-ROM V2 media.
4. Section 9.0, "AACS2 content protection" on page 505 was newly added.
5. AACS2 Feature (010Fh) was added in Table 374 - Feature List on page 627.
6. In Table 446 - BD Read Feature Descriptor on page 675, the version number of BD Read Feature (0040h) was
updated from 2 to 3. ROM2 bit was added. ROM bit was renamed as ROM1 bit.
7. 21.4.2.55, "Feature 010Fh: AACS2" on page 701 was created to describe AACS2 Feature (010Fh).
8. Description about BCA was corrected in Section 21.24, "READ DISC STRUCTURE Command" on page 821.
9. Description about AACS2 was added in Table 648 - Format Code field definitions for media format independent
information on page 824.
10. Description about BD-ROM Ver. 2 was added in Table 682 - General DI Unit Format on page 847.
11. Description about AACS2 was added in 21.24.34, "Volume Identifier of AACS (Format Code = 80h)" on
page 854, 21.24.35, on page 855 and 21.24.38, on page 857.
12. New Key Class 03h for AACS2 was added in Table 766 - Key Class Definitions on page 915.
13. 21.30.3, "REPORT KEY command for AACS2 (Key Class = 03h)" on page 926 was added for AACS2 description.
14. New Key Class 03h for AACS2 was added in Table 868 - Key Class definitions on page 979.
15. 21.38.3, "SEND KEY command for AACS2 (Key Class = 03h)" on page 984 was added for AACS2 description.
16. Two new Error Codes for AACS2 were added in Table 924 - All Error Codes on page 1032 and
Table 929 - Authentication Error Codes on page 1052.
17. 2.2.2, "AACS2 (Advanced Access Content System Two)" on page 62 was added for AACS2 definition.
18. Table 956 - Feature Descriptor Version on page 1107 was updated for BD Read Feature (0040h) and AACS2
Feature (010Fh).





I bumped the thread to try to explain the reason for the XB1 and PS4 UHD capable not being firmware updated January 2016 as mentioned in the two papers I now cite at the beginning of this thread. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206303332&postcount=664
 

Jebusman

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Jeff, I have a question.

If Sony and/or Microsoft come out and make the definitive statement, as in, clearly and unequivocally stating that the PS4 and XB1 will not, under any circumstance, ever support 4K bluray, will you admit you're wrong?

And, if that actually happens, will that prompt some level of self reflection?
 

J-Rzez

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It would be a tragedy if the PS4.5 NEO doesn't sport a 4K/UHD BD-player. Sony doesn't have one tied to it's sister TV division and they are dominant in BD-players sale, so I suspect this PS4 NEO or whatever will be their player. If priced well it'll force Samsung to drop the price over their player which has a massive mark up over cost right now, should be around the $280 range.
 

jeff_rigby

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Jeff, I have a question.

If Sony and/or Microsoft come out and make the definitive statement, as in, clearly and unequivocally stating that the PS4 and XB1 will not, under any circumstance, ever support 4K bluray, will you admit you're wrong?

And, if that actually happens, will that prompt some level of self reflection?
Microsoft and Sony have officially stated the PS4 and XB1 hardware is capable of supporting UHD Blu-ray. If they make a business decision to not support it then yes. If Sony and Microsoft announce UHD BLu-ray support will that prompt some self reflection and crow eating?

Note that House said the current cheaper PS4 will be sold alongside the more expensive NEO going forward. Games and disks will be compatible across the two systems. This should include Version 2 disks (100GB) which for game media do not require UHD DRM (AACS2 encryption). Again, a version 2 disk can already be read by BDXL drives and BD-ROM drives only require a firmware update as mentioned in 2010 by Sony-Panasonic. BD-ROM drives did not need to read 33GB/layer as there were no commercial BD-ROM disks being made with 33GB/layer till UHD.
 

c0de

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Jeff, I have a question.

If Sony and/or Microsoft come out and make the definitive statement, as in, clearly and unequivocally stating that the PS4 and XB1 will not, under any circumstance, ever support 4K bluray, will you admit you're wrong?

And, if that actually happens, will that prompt some level of self reflection?

I guess that he will find a way saying that it was a business decision of both to sell the new hardware although the old could do it.
In his world, everything he finds is a fact and he presents it as a fact but we will never be sure if anything he writes would be possible, not to say that we most likely will never see anything in real life.
And that's the point in the end: most probably he won't be proven right by Sony or MS because the old console revisions won't support uhd bluray but that also doesn't mean he was wrong. Other than devs saying that he is wrong (and they should know about the technical side of things) we will never know for sure.
 

jeff_rigby

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The best part is that you didn't even know UHD blu-ray has been out for months.
LOL Adam, you want to answer him.

Trojita said:
We have 4K Discs out now with no information or company release saying the PS4 will support these.

jeff_rigby said:
You need to check that it's not a 1080P blu-ray disk from a 4K master as that has been put forth before as a mis-understanding.

Trojita said:
They are real 4K Discs.

https://www.amazon.com/Deadpool-4K-Ultra-HD-Blu-ray/dp/B01CB37LBO/

already out in consumers hands.
That would be telling if they state the PS4 can play them but in this thread probably dismissed as an error by the producer until confirmed.
 

Adam Tyner

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If Sony and/or Microsoft come out and make the definitive statement, as in, clearly and unequivocally stating that the PS4 and XB1 will not, under any circumstance, ever support 4K bluray, will you admit you're wrong?
Sony (well, Masayasu Ito, the executive VP who leads the PlayStation hardware group) already has said just that, at least for the launch PS4. He says it's possible with a hardware revision. Jeff rejects his assertions.

The best part is that you didn't even know UHD blu-ray has been out for months.
He knows it's out. However, last year, he insisted that Ultra HD Blu-ray players were already on the market when I talked about the delay to early 2016. For someone who prides himself on being plugged in and unearthing white papers, it's puzzling that something written up in so many articles escaped him for weeks.

Microsoft and Sony have officially stated the PS4 and XB1 hardware is capable of supporting UHD Blu-ray.
There have been no direct statements affirming support since approx. 2.5 years prior to the launch of the format. The vague "UHD capable" statement in the EU document you cite (submitted by a consultancy group on behalf of Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo) says nothing about Ultra HD Blu-ray support being part of a firmware update for the launch consoles. I know you're going to say, "well, if there's any sort of streaming UHD support, it's the same stack as yadda yadda yadda", but that's not the same thing as officially stating that the launch consoles are capable of UHD BD support.

In his world, everything he finds is a fact and he presents it as a fact but we will never be sure if anything he writes would be possible, not to say that we most likely will never see anything in real life.
How does that expression go? If all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail? In this case, everything looks like "game consoles are the media hubs of the connected home".
 

Black Hat

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Mods can we please just change the thread title if possible.

Has got me at least three times now, lol.
 

jeff_rigby

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Sony (well, Masayasu Ito, the executive VP who leads the PlayStation hardware group) already has said just that, at least for the launch PS4. He says it's possible with a hardware revision. Jeff rejects his assertions.
I reject his assertions because 1) All BD-ROM drives can read 3 layers and he said the drive in the PS4 can't. 2) There is no HEVC codec in the PS4, which the official UHD Capable in two different letters by two different groups with representatives from Sony and Microsoft makes a lie.

He knows it's out. However, last year, he insisted that Ultra HD Blu-ray players were already on the market when I talked about the delay to early 2016. For someone who prides himself on being plugged in and unearthing white papers, it's puzzling that something written up in so many articles escaped him for weeks.
I do have a life and there is more to what's coming than blu-ray players and disks

There have been no direct statements affirming support since approx. 2.5 years prior to the launch of the format. The vague "UHD capable" statement in the EU document you cite (submitted by a consultancy group on behalf of Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo) says nothing about Ultra HD Blu-ray support being part of a firmware update for the launch consoles. I know you're going to say, "well, if there's any sort of streaming UHD support, it's the same stack as yadda yadda yadda", but that's not the same thing as officially stating that the launch consoles are capable of UHD BD support.
For people reading this, 2.5 years ago at the launch of the consoles a Microsoft VP stated the XB1 has the hardware to support UHD blu-ray and Sony representatives said the PS4 has a HDMI2 port and supports 4k media. Yes nothing since then till Feb of this year when the April 2015 letter was posted confirming the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable.

How does that expression go? If all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail? In this case, everything looks like "game consoles are the media hubs of the connected home".
Coming with UHD media support are open standards based on HTML5 for media and a common DRM for Vidpath. These standards will be used for UHD BLu-ray, ATSC 3.0 Antenna TV and for IPTV streaming like Playstation Vue....yadda yadda yadda You have to read and understand the papers I cite or it sounds like yadda yadda yadda.
 

Adam Tyner

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I do have a life and there is more to what's coming than blu-ray players and disks
I just think it's funny that you say things like:

For those who are clueless and assume the Launch XB1 can't support UHD Media...
For those who are dialed in, the Launch XB1 can support UHD media...

...when you overlook obvious, well-publicized things in favor of whatever you're completely pulling out of the air, such as UHD BD players being released last September with the first round of software coming that October. Nothing from anyone at any point said anything about a release last Sept./Oct. That is entirely an invention of yours; "before Christmas" was as detailed as the launch was ever said to be. This wasn't even about when the format would launch; you insisted that it already had launched last Fall and demanded proof that it had not, which is...baffling. How "dialed in" are you?

I reject his assertions
Does Ito saying such things give you great hope that an Ultra HD Blu-ray firmware update is imminent? If he's mistaken but is dead certain it's not a road worth going down, the end result is the same as if the console were not capable at all. If Sony doesn't feel that it's worth the time/effort to write such an update, assuming it even is possible, the end result remains "no UHD BD for the launch PS4". If Sony could perform this update with no trouble but wants to reserve the capability for the Neo -- as a marketing bullet point -- the end result remains "no UHD BD for the launch PS4". What about the likelihood of future models having dedicated hardware for HEVC decoding, and Sony doesn't want to create and support a separate solution for the launch models? Many things that are technically possible never come to pass. When you say things like:

Both the PS4 and Xb1 launch Game consoles will be firmware updated in 2016 (by second week of October).

Ugh. You fundamentally cannot distinguish between fact and speculation.

This is why saying "will" in the subject line is such a poor idea, and I do not understand why the mods let it pass.
 

jeff_rigby

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snip/ You fundamentally cannot distinguish between fact and speculation.

This is why saying "will" in the subject line is such a poor idea, and I do not understand why the mods let it pass.

Facts;
1) The PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable
2) A BD-ROM drive can be firmware updated to support UHD Disks
3) Sony has a licence for ALL forms of UHD Blu-ray player; Embedded, Game console, PC and Movie Player without drive.

#3 confirms what we all know; Sony wants as many UHD players on the market as possible as they make money when disks are sold. Sony writing a UHD Blu-ray PC application should make this doubly clear. Microsoft is also supporting this because it will sell PCs and XB1s streaming UHD media in the home using Playready ND from the digital bridge. (Playready ND is mentioned in several UHD Blu-ray digital bridge proposals)

Since the PS4 and XB1 can support UHD Blu-ray after a firmware update you must assume some business reason for not supporting pulling the trigger and updating to support UHD Blu-ray. Please explain as I can't find or think of any possible reason.

Calling for a MOD to edit the title or lock this thread presupposes I am wrong without evidence. It is your responsibility to read the cites and understand them if you wish to argue I am not correct about the PS4 and XB1 hardware being able to support UHD Blu-ray. I told you I made the title/header for this thread; The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray in response to articles stating the launch consoles will not support UHD BLu-ray and the articled did so without evidence with major misunderstandings of what was needed and available at the time to support UHD.

This ignorance continues to this day with articles assuming only NEO can support 4K media. Remember there is a 2015 version of the PS4 where Southbridge was refreshed and articles are assuming a 2013 and 2015 PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray....how stupid is that.
 

GAMEPROFF

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How can they be UHD capable when they dont have the needed HDMI ports?
Is Sony sending teams over thr world to replace the port alongside the update?
 

Chû Totoro

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This thread is something special. I can't explain it but maybe jeff and mods can because I'm lost.

Is it now just a game (or running joke) ?
 

Jebusman

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Calling for a MOD to edit the title or lock this thread presupposes I am wrong without evidence. It is your responsibility to read the cites and understand them if you wish to argue I am not correct about the PS4 and XB1 hardware being able to support UHD Blu-ray. I told you I made the title/header for this thread; The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray in response to articles stating the launch consoles will not support UHD BLu-ray and the articled did so without evidence with major misunderstandings of what was needed and available at the time to support UHD.

Except people have. And you just ignore/dismiss them. There is literally no arguing with you. You are essentially talking down to us hoping we will one day understand your great wisdom.

You seem like you are going to fight this battle till your grave, and quite frankly it's just depressing. People manage to cop bans for spreading false rumors when "leaks" turn out not to be true. I have to wonder how long you're going to dodge the bullet with this "PS4 will support Bluray" thing if it doesn't pan out to be true.
 

Adam Tyner

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Microsoft is also supporting this because it will sell PCs and XB1s streaming UHD media in the home using Playready ND from the digital bridge. (Playready ND is mentioned in several UHD Blu-ray digital bridge proposals)
How large do you think the potential market is for:

1) People who will buy an Ultra HD Blu-ray disc
2) Don't actually want to watch the movie on their Ultra HD Blu-ray disc player
3) Are willing to pay an additional fee to stream that content to another device instead



Since the PS4 and XB1 can support UHD Blu-ray after a firmware update you must assume some business reason for not supporting pulling the trigger and updating to support UHD Blu-ray. Please explain as I can't find or think of any possible reason.
I posted several in the post above. It's only a few sentences long and is no great time commitment. If I call it a white paper instead of a message board post, then would you bother to read it?

It is your responsibility to read the cites and understand them if you wish to argue I am not correct about the PS4 and XB1 hardware being able to support UHD Blu-ray.
"Able to support" is not the primary point of contention, although you do have a tendency to rely on years-old quotes and that vague EU power timeline you're twisting to meet your ends, and those aren't nearly as compelling as you're making them out to be.

I told you I made the title/header for this thread; The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray in response to articles stating the launch consoles will not support UHD BLu-ray and the articled did so without evidence with major misunderstandings of what was needed and available at the time to support UHD.
There is insufficient evidence to state that the launch PS4 will have support. You're even more guilty of spreading misinformation than anyone. You're even boldly proclaiming specific dates that the firmware update will launch, failing to present your speculation for what it is.
 

jeff_rigby

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How large do you think the potential market is for:

1) People who will buy an Ultra HD Blu-ray disc
2) Don't actually want to watch the movie on their Ultra HD Blu-ray disc player
3) Are willing to pay an additional fee to stream that content to another device instead



I posted several in the post above. It's only a few sentences long and is no great time commitment. If I call it a white paper instead of a message board post, then would you bother to read it?

"Able to support" is not the primary point of contention, although you do have a tendency to rely on years-old quotes and that vague EU power timeline you're twisting to meet your ends, and those aren't nearly as compelling as you're making them out to be.

There is insufficient evidence to state that the launch PS4 will have support. You're even more guilty of spreading misinformation than anyone. You're even boldly proclaiming specific dates that the firmware update will launch, failing to present your speculation for what it is.
Sony has yet to launch a UHD blu-ray player or firmware update a console or release a PC application for UHD Blu-ray. There is NO PC application for a UHD Blu-ray player by anyone. The same is true for UHD APPs or using HEVC to stream Netflix @ 1080P resolution which we also know is coming. Vidipath is still on hold also, Khronos published OpenVX 1.0 Oct 2014 yet it's still not being used by AMD and Nividia or the Game Consoles.

Well guess what, OpenVX in AMD APUs and dGPUs use the same Xtensa accelerators that HEVC is used for and on the same ARM trustzone bus that is the Media TEE. Coincidence that Game consoles and PCs still don't have support for UHD and drivers for OpenVX were just released in the last few months and are still not at 1.1.

HTML5 <video> EME MSE is not considered finished and ALL UHD media uses it. It's supposed to be done this September. Firmware 4.0 should arrive in October and bring with it OpenVX, UHD Media, Vidipath, ooVoo, smaller Apps with full screen power mode and more...much of it APIs provided by Southbridge as the ARM media TEE.

VR and NEO will be released after a firmware update for the PS4 and Likely the PS3 and Vita. VR (for OpenVX) and NEO will use the same Southbridge as ARM SoC scheme for Media that the last two PS4 refreshes use.
 

Freeman

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Change this title, gets me every time. It be cool, but at this point they would've just announced it.

If anything Sony should make an announcement for the sake of the OPs health.
 

androvsky

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What's the exact ARM (actual part number I can look at a data sheet for) that's in the launch PS4? It may have a TEE, but I'm not certain it's fast enough to encrypt raw 4K video at HDCP 2.2 requirements. Sure, it might use hardware acceleration, but I believe the theory here is that since it was made before HDCP 2.2 was finalized, it can be updated to run different algorithms in software.
 

Sydle

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Change this title, gets me every time. It be cool, but at this point they would've just announced it.

If anything Sony should make an announcement for the sake of the OPs health.

This.

I saw it and was like "fuck yeah, no Xbone S needed" and then saw the OP.
 

ZOONAMI

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Thread title got me again. I was like what!? Did Sony quietly announce this at e3!? Rigby redeemed! Nope, thread just getting bumped, and now I'm bumping it.
 

BriareosGAF

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Jeff is sort of the patron saint for weird hardware speculation, mostly because he seems to specialize on more irrelevant bits that make you go "why is this guy so obsessed with this?". He's a bit of a meme for those of us who actually work on the hardware before release--I have actually asked questions in discussion with hardware folks just because I knew some people there would realize we were riffing on this thread.
 

jeff_rigby

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What's the exact ARM (actual part number I can look at a data sheet for) that's in the launch PS4? It may have a TEE, but I'm not certain it's fast enough to encrypt raw 4K video at HDCP 2.2 requirements. Sure, it might use hardware acceleration, but I believe the theory here is that since it was made before HDCP 2.2 was finalized, it can be updated to run different algorithms in software.
HDCP2.2 was developed in 2012 so it could be in the PS4 ARM TEE. What was waiting was the mapping to the HDMI port which concerned the pass through of negotiation from the HDMI chip and the routines to determine propagation delay and the number of HDMI repeaters that are connected to the HDMI port. That was published Feb 2013 and both Panasonic and Sony were part of the HDMI committee that created HDMI and HDMI 2. The PS4 has a custom HDMI chip that is not listed in the Panasonic website as a HDMI 1.4 chip.

The HDCP 2.2 routine is used for Miracast, HDMI 2 multi-cast over LAN, can be used for DTCP-IP and HDMI. It's all about negotiation between transmitter and receiver and keys that generate a sequence of logic 0's & 1s that are applied to the video stream 0's and 1's in a recoverable manor provided both tranmitter and receiver are using the same keys. It's also about routines that determine hops through switches and length of wires or propagation delay to insure the receiver is still in the home. DTCP-IP and HDMI each have their own rules but use the same routines.

You are overthinking the encryption, it's not like a HEVC codec and does not perform a complex algorithm on the data stream, just a logical operation like invert only when the "randomly generated" stream is high. As long as the receiver is keyed using the same and is creating the same random number stream to key an inverter applied to the video stream, the video is recoverable. This is an oversimplified explanation not an actual description of the process as it probably includes a method to take a random stream at a slower clock and apply it to the faster video stream.

The "random" stream is anything but random but appears to be random unless you have the key that was used with the AES 128 block.

I have no way of knowing which ARM family is in Southbridge but Cerney did state that Southbridge contains a ARM Trustzone processor when he also stated it's there for EU power regulations (Network Standby) and background download. ARM Trustzone has been implemented in several ARM processors but they always are on a AXI bus of which there are now several versions. I personally do not see the reason for the secrecy...he could have stated the ARM trustzone is used for a Trusted boot, HDCP 2.2 and next generation video which uses HTML5 <video> EME MSE. Putting Playready and WMDRM in the PS4 intellectual notice tells us the same as Playready 3 requires HDCP 2.2.
 

Afrowhitey

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HDCP2.2 was developed in 2012 so it could be in the PS4 ARM TEE. What was waiting was the mapping to the HDMI port which concerned the pass through of negotiation from the HDMI chip and the routines to determine propagation delay and the number of HDMI repeaters that are connected to the HDMI port. That was published Feb 2013 and both Panasonic and Sony were part of the HDMI committee that created HDMI and HDMI 2. The PS4 has a custom HDMI chip that is not listed in the Panasonic website as a HDMI 1.4 chip.

The HDCP 2.2 routine is used for Miracast, HDMI 2 multi-cast over LAN, can be used for DTCP-IP and HDMI. It's all about negotiation between transmitter and receiver and keys that generate a sequence of logic 0's & 1s that are applied to the video stream 0's and 1's in a recoverable manor provided both tranmitter and receiver are using the same keys. It's also about routines that determine hops through switches and length of wires or propagation delay to insure the receiver is still in the home. DTCP-IP and HDMI each have their own rules but use the same routines.

You are overthinking the encryption, it's not like a HEVC codec and does not perform a complex algorithm on the data stream, just a logical operation like invert only when the "randomly generated" stream is high. As long as the receiver is keyed using the same and is creating the same random number stream to key an inverter applied to the video stream, the video is recoverable. This is an oversimplified explanation not an actual description of the process as it probably includes a method to take a random stream at a slower clock and apply it to the faster video stream.

The "random" stream is anything but random but appears to be random unless you have the key that was used with the AES 128 block.

I have no way of knowing which ARM family is in Southbridge but Cerney did state that Southbridge contains a ARM Trustzone processor when he also stated it's there for EU power regulations (Network Standby) and background download. ARM Trustzone has been implemented in several ARM processors but they always are on a AXI bus of which there are now several versions. I personally do not see the reason for the secrecy...he could have stated the ARM trustzone is used for a Trusted boot, HDCP 2.2 and next generation video which uses HTML5 <video> EME MSE. Putting Playready and WMDRM in the PS4 intellectual notice tells us the same as Playready 3 requires HDCP 2.2.


<REDEMPTION LIVES FOR THOSE WITH DETERMINATION>
 

Green Yoshi

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In July 2015, a poster at the NeoGAF forums postulated something that sounded odd at the time: the PlayStation 4 has been 4K-compatible from the get-go. Even before 4K had arisen as a burgeoning standard, it was there, all along. User Jeff Rigby geeked out by analyzing things like motherboard schematics, exposed pins, and HDMI bandwidth ratings, and he concluded that everything on the hardware side was in place for a surprise 4K update. Sony just needed to push a necessary firmware update to comply with bandwidth and copy-protection standards.

That's a pretty beefy feature to leave dormant within our game consoles for so long. Crazy, right?

Apparently not: The PlayStation 4 is getting a firmware update "by next week," according to Sony Interactive Entertainment President Andrew House, to enable a brand-new visual standard on every single PlayStation 4 shipped since its 2013 launch. One that's been sleeping inside your PS4 all this time.

There's a catch, however. That updated standard isn't 4K, but HDR. While Wednesday's press conference mostly revolved around the souped-up PlayStation 4 Pro console, it also included a cursory mention of high dynamic range (HDR) compatibility coming to a whopping 40 million-plus pieces of hardware.
...
Rigby guessed last year that the PlayStation 4's HDMI controller is HDMI 2.0 compatible—meaning, it had been developed with higher bandwidth than the HDMI 1.4 spec required, and it just needed an official update via firmware to unlock and unleash that potential. Now, House has confirmed that it's coming, because anything rated for HDR specifications is technically also ready for 4K resolution.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/...rise-firmware-update-is-4k-around-the-corner/
 

Darktalon

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May 2, 2011
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The plot thickens! It is true that HDR is not a part of HDMI 1.4 specs, but bandwidth seems to be the primary issue. So 1080p60fps HDR bandwidth is probably less than 4k @ 24, which 1.4 does.....

I'd love to see a Digital Foundry article about exactly what we have in our original PS4's.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Jul 30, 2009
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Yeah, there was a thread about that article. It isn't evidence of anything as it's just the author regurgitating Jeff's claims, down to even ignoring the fact that both HDR and 4K were pillars of the presentation and yet House announced retroactive support for the former and only the former. I mean, it stands to reason that if 4K output support were coming, it would have also been announced, and since it wasn't, the notion that it is coming doesn't have much of a basis in reality. On a related note, even Jeff himself has given up on the X1 and PS4 receiving UHD BD support.

Jeff hasn't been wrong about absolutely everything (HDR support, most notably, although it's a little too early to point to it as evidence that all PS4s have HDMI 2.0 chips), but from where I'm standing, the PS4 receiving 4K output support is about as likely as it receiving UHD BD support.
 

jeff_rigby

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How can they be UHD capable when they dont have the needed HDMI ports?
Is Sony sending teams over thr world to replace the port alongside the update?
Rehash of Page 1 of this thread; the picture of the PS4 HDMI chip is all about HDCP (1.4 and 2.2) taking place in the PS4 Media TEE which I believe is Southbridge. The reason there were no HDMI 2 chips available at launch was HDCP 2.2 required quite alot of hardware support and the standard was finished with mapping HDCP 2.2 to HDMI early 2013 which is too late to create a fixed function chip for assembly in a PS4 shipping Nov 2013. The PS4 has a Custom Panasonic HDMI chip that passes negotiation to the Media TEE where HDCP 1.4 and 2.2 are supported. Additionally it only has to support passing HDR negotiation and timing for all the HDMI 2 required clocks/resolution/FPS which were known and were easy to implement. This is the PS4 can play 4K media part we all knew about and supported a few firmware updates ago for non commercial media (Pictures and home movies).

I mentioned in later threads that HDR support for media is required to take place in the media TEE and is a very low bandwidth addition to Standard Dynamic Range in that TEE. Games have to add HDR to the video in the GPU which takes a small amount of additional processing. And yes HDR for games does not require HDCP 2.2 but it does require the HDMI 2.0a negotiation. I'm guessing Sony chose to not support HDR till they implemented HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2.

So PS4 firmware 4 implements HDCP 2.2 which requires TMP 2.0 standards for the cryptography accelerators and keys in the Media TEE. TMP 2.0 is not backwardly compatible so all routines that use the cryptography hardware must be updated at the same time or implemented at the same time. TMP 2.0 was published Oct 2014 and Microsoft implemented it in Windows 10 August 2, 2016 and a month later Sony implemented it with firmware 4.0. Sony tried to say the PS4 would not support DLNA at launch in 2013 and due to an outcry they released a Media/DLNA player. The reason for the No DLNA announcement was they knew it would be 3 years till HDCP 2.2 would be supported and announced features with that long a wait would create issues.

The current PS4 media/DLNA Player has no DRM support and is a temporary player waiting on HTML 5 <video> MSE EME which was waiting on HDCP 2.2 which is now in the PS4 since it supports HDCP 2.2 for HDMI 2.0a. This means that all features waiting on this can be implemented any time now, they are:

Background Firmware updates without using the APU.
HDMI 2.0a
Vidipath
Playready (Vidipath requires Playready and Playready protected DTCP-IP for DLNA )
Miracast
HTML5 <video> MSE EME (The DRM parts)
IPTV Apps
ooVoo or some video chat (by default video chat is encrypted)

All the APPs will be rewritten to use the media TEE which requires Codec, Player, encryption routines and HDR take place in that TEE. The same routines will be used by all IPTV apps. Apps will be "Mono commercial apps" in the PS4 as Sony has a Mono Just In Time (JIT) compiler built into the PS4 OS and in OS core dumps is called Mono Commercial APP support. Mono will call APIs for the Media TEE and Browser native libraries. APPs will dramatically shrink in size.

Vidpath is always associated with Miracast and Vidipath has levels of support but all require low power and Network standby DLNA/Miracast support where a Phone can control the PS4 either as a DLNA or Miracast renderer/Player.

1080P Media with HDR:

Adam guarantees the PS4 will have HEVC support for HD media just like the 2013 XB1 and I think that will be a minimum. Leaked UHD blu-ray PDFs mention HDR for HD media on 4K TVs with HDMI 2.0A ports and a possible future 1080P TV with support for HDR which would still require HDCP 2.2a negotiation.

AACS 2.0 CR proposal about new Blu-ray content for current HDTV

&#61550; Disney, SPE and Warner Bros. request BDA to support HDR feature in new UHD Bluray
format. These three studios need both HD with HDR and UHD with HDR.
&#61550; BDA will define Three new types of Blu-ray discs (UHD, HD with HDR and UHD with
HDR).

&#61550; In addition of the current HDTV and UHDTV, TV manufacturers will provide new
UHDTV with HDR (HDTV with HDR??) to enjoy HDR signals from new Blu-ray discs.
&#61550; Support the current TV (HDTV and UHDTV) user, we need a mechanism to provide
some kind (degrading) Video signal from new Blu-ray discs to the current TVs.

The current HDTV user cannot get any video signal from new Blu-ray discs
In the picture/flow chart is a FHDTV which I take to mean Future HDTV

So we can take from this that 1080P HDR is coming from at least streaming IPTV services like Netflix for platforms that have at least HEVC profile 10 for HD media and a HDMI 2.0a port because of the required HDR negotiation. HDCP 2.2 would be required in the media TEE for Playready DRM and for the HDMI port.

The XB1 will support Playready and Vidipath also which means it has HDCP 2.2 in it's TEE. The XB1 also has support for a HEVC HD codec which can be used to reduce the bandwidth used for HD media without HDR. In PCs and I think the XB1, HDCP (1.4 and 2.2) are also required to take place in the TEE (in the XB1 that is in the APU) unless memory traces/pins and PCIe traces from the APU to the Southbridge chip and HDMI chip are hidden. If this is the case then the HDMI port on the XB1 just needs to support the same as the PS4 and it can also support HD HDR and HDCP 2.0a negotiation.

HEVC for HD media without HEVC accelerators requires 1.5 times the processing power h.264 requires for real time video, this is the minimum I think is supported and Adam guarantees is supported. HEVC for UHD media requires 4 times the processing power. After Microsoft published the standards for 5 HEVC accelerators late 2013, any HEVC implementation using those accelerators would require much less processing power. The PS4 southbridge was updated in the 2015 PS4 and it would contain the HEVC codec. To support all PS4s being UHD capable, since all PS4s have a HDMI 2.0a port, would require only an extra expense of about $10 for the 2013 PS4 to support HEVC for UHD media. The XB1 APU contains the Media TEE and was not updated till the 2016 XB1 slim.

HDR for 1080P or using HEVC HD codecs and/or both is a recognition that the Internet can not properly support UHD media. This makes a lie out of Sony saying they think UHD streaming is the future (at least in the near term) and they are not supporting UHD Blu-ray for this reason.

UHD BD-ROM 4 Drive, is it a firmware updated modern BD-ROM 3 drive?




This is a picture from the BDA of the manuals for ROM4. The size of the manuals gives us an idea of the changes required.



Basic Format specs ==> 10 or so pages?
File System Specs ==> one page?
Audio Visual basic specs ==> is the player right, 100's of pages?

None of the above have to be a hardware change.

There are two patents now, one from 2010 and one from 2012 about keeping older BD-ROM drives from reading Version 2 disks because it may not read the disk reliably. The Mount Fuji book describes the differences from BD-ROM 3 to BD-ROM 4 and one of the differences is the drive is put into a UHD mode where the functions for the registers in the drive are moved around which makes them different from what a HD player expects. This keeps a HD Blu-ray player from reading a UHD disk which might be on a Version 2 disk. This implements the purpose of the 2010 and 2012 patents and helps keeps a cracked HD player from being able to access UHD media.

There are multiple articles now that essentially say the same, at some point/year a modern blu-ray drive should be able to be firmware updated to support UHD blu-ray. 2008 drives could support 4 or more layers reliably. Reduced mark length introduced in the 2010 BD-R whitepaper requires slightly more DSP performance for iMLSE that faster drives must have. Faster drive requires a faster more powerful DSP chip. An older drive without firmware update to support iMLSE can not reliably read a Version 2 disk.
 

Nostremitus

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Mar 24, 2012
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Thread title change got me. I was excited when I first clicked it, thought there was a new announcement and Sony had made a last minute change or something...
 

el87

Member
Jun 17, 2014
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Has anyone made an explanation video about this thread and everything around it? I believe it's already a meme, right?

Also, who and why did change the thread title?
 

Izuna

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Nov 23, 2010
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Jeff come on. Why do this?

edit: lol this is a new thread? how did I miss this? can we show how jeff was wrong about Hillary's health?
 
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