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Oslo, Norway Mosque Shooting; possible link to 8chan, being investigated as terrorism

ruvikx

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Tell me, if he didn't get his islamophobia from an online community, where do you think he got it from? Talking to his racist grandpa a little too often?
Maybe he noticed Norway is becoming Muslim, women are getting raped & his country is being radically transformed (invaded)? Once upon a time, "resistance fighters" were called heroes for shooting Germans in the back in the 1940's. Nowadays, a Norwegian merely saying "Islam doesn't belong in Europe" results in hate crime accusations.

So don't play dumb, i.e. it takes two to tango. I might as well throw millions of white Christians into Israel & accuse the locals of "Christianophobia & hatred of whites" when they complain. Morally it would be the same putridness as the leftist multikulti open borders anti-white freaks display in Europe right now.
 
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Whitesnake

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You're assuming it's a deliberate, malicious attempt to distort things, but there's no tangible evidence of that. Sometimes it can be as simple as a journalist making a mistake. Blast that, but don't start inventing conspiracies you know you can't prove.
I didn’t say it was deliberate. The best case scenario is that they posted information that they had to have known would fuel an ongoing uproar, and they didn’t do their due diligence in verifying that information to any extent before publishing it.

That shouldn’t happen. Ever. We need to hold their feet to the fire for pulling shit like this.

Tell me, if he didn't get his islamophobia from an online community, where do you think he got it from? Talking to his racist grandpa a little too often?
You believe hatred of muslims began with the invention of the internet?
 
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matt404au

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Islamophobia is such a dumb term employed by brainlets seeking their daily moral grandstanding dopamine hit. Yes, I am afraid of a religion that has a long history of brutal patriarchal oppression gaining an increasing foothold in the West. No, I don't treat individual Muslims in my day to day life any differently to other individuals. If you are capable of separating individuals from group ideology, you will understand how this is possible. If you want to call me names for saying this, you'd better go dig up Christopher Hitchens and call him them too because he said this first [Link 1] [Link 2].
 

Lamel

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I didn’t say it was deliberate. The best case scenario is that they posted information that they had to have known would fuel an ongoing uproar, and they didn’t do their due diligence in verifying that information to any extent before publishing it.

That shouldn’t happen. Ever. We need to hold their feet to the fire for pulling shit like this.



You believe hatred of muslims began with the invention of the internet?
I also posted “possible” in the title. And provided links to conflicting information edited into the OP as it is a developing story.

Seems it was a mistranslation from Norwegian media. However police reported that he still posted online prior to the attack.

Don’t miss the forest for the trees. I maintain my earlier stance as stated in the thread, it could be 8chan or 4chan or endchan or NeoGAF. The problem of online radicalization remains.

Maybe he noticed Norway is becoming Muslim, women are getting raped & his country is being radically transformed (invaded)? Once upon a time, "resistance fighters" were called heroes for shooting Germans in the back in the 1940's. Nowadays, a Norwegian merely saying "Islam doesn't belong in Europe" results in hate crime accusations.

So don't play dumb, i.e. it takes two to tango. I might as well throw millions of white Christians into Israel & accuse the locals of "Christianophobia & hatred of whites" when they complain. Morally it would be the same putridness as the leftist multikulti open borders anti-white freaks display in Europe right now.
You’re really going to try and justify an attack on a place of worship where no one did anything wrong? And call this guy a resistance fighter?

Take a step back and get a grip.
 
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matt404au

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I also posted “possible” in the title. And provided links to conflicting information edited into the OP as it is a developing story.

Seems it was a mistranslation from Norwegian media. However police reported that he still posted online prior to the attack.

Don’t miss the forest for the trees. I maintain my earlier stance as stated in the thread, it could be 8chan or 4chan or endchan or NeoGAF. The problem of online radicalization remains.
Or Twitter or Facebook or YouTube.

Where have I seen this "developing story" angle used to excuse subversive phrasing and misinformation before? Hmm... oh yeah, Nobody_Important with that Covington thread.
 

Lamel

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Or Twitter or Facebook or YouTube.

Where have I seen this "developing story" angle used to excuse subversive phrasing and misinformation before? Hmm... oh yeah, Nobody_Important with that Covington thread.
I agree. Those sites are included as I’ve posted before.

I have not been shy of posting updated sources if you read through the thread.
 
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matt404au

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I agree. Those sites are included as I’ve posted before.

I have not been shy of posting updated sources if you read through the thread.
Why single out 8chan then? Why frame the story around them? Why is the platform only ever part of the story when it's convenient to a particular political angle? Why wasn't the finger pointed at Facebook over the Christchurch shooting?
 
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Lamel

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Why single out 8chan then? Why frame the story around them? Why is the platform only ever part of the story when it's convenient to a particular political angle? Why wasn't the finger pointed at Facebook over the Christchurch shooting?
When I posted all major news except one was reporting 8chan specifically. From direct Norwegian news sources the police report he posted about the attack online 2 hours prior. It doesn’t need to be framed around 8chan for me to drive the point home about right wing/white supremacist radicalization online. It’s not a convenient political angle when it’s a reality.

This attacker also posted a Facebook stream link that did not work and had a camera with him.
 
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matt404au

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When I posted all major news except one was reporting 8chan specifically. It doesn’t need to be framed around them for me to drive the point home about right wing/white supremacist radicalization online. It’s not a convenient political angle when it’s a reality.

This attacker also posted a Facebook stream link that did not work and had a camera with him.
I agree that white supremacist radicalisation is on the rise, but I think your choice (and the media's choice, which you wield as a criticism shield) of focusing on the platform was purposeful. Do it in all cases or don't do it at all. By your own standard, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. are just as culpable, if not more so, than 8chan.

We're tapdancing around the core of the issue though, which is what is precipitating the rise in white supremacist radicalisation. Where do you think it's coming from?
 

Arkage

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We're tapdancing around the core of the issue though, which is what is precipitating the rise in white supremacist radicalisation. Where do you think it's coming from?
The internet enables conspiratorial ideologies to create substantial communities that can feed any particular conspiracy 24/7. You no longer need to have an actual racist group embedded in your neighborhood to become a part of it like in the old days, it is now done primarily online and anonymously. Meme culture has certainly been a tool that altright/supremistists have taken great advantage of through the chans. You can find racist shit on (4chans) /pol all day every day, intentionally so. In other words, recruiting for white supremacy is easier now than ever before.

But it also has to do with racial anxieties. The power dynamics changing from majority white to mixed to maybe minority white in the future. Some white people are afraid that minorities will treat them poorly if they take some substantial amount of power for themselves. That narrative has already been pushed to a good extent. There are plenty of people who aren't necessarily racist but think society is anti-white male. If you can be convinced of this, then it isn't a very big step to take towards thinking that white people need to consolidate their power through their racial identity. And then mix that in with all the talk about how birthrates of whites are lower than minorities, the situation can seem unsolvable beyond fear tactics and/or murder. It actual makes me wonder if there's a link between Incel culture and supremacy culture: like if they think their lack of a substantial relationship that could produce offspring is actually kind of dooming their race, so their only alternative is violence.
 
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matt404au

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The internet enables conspiratorial ideologies to create substantial communities that can feed any particular conspiracy 24/7. You no longer need to have an actual racist group embedded in your neighborhood to become a part of it like in the old days, it is now done primarily online and anonymously. Meme culture has certainly been a tool that altright/supremistists have taken great advantage of through the chans. You can find racist shit on (4chans) /pol all day every day, intentionally so. In other words, recruiting for white supremacy is easier now than ever before.

But it also has to do with racial anxieties. The power dynamics changing from majority white to mixed to maybe minority white in the future. Some white people are afraid that minorities will treat them poorly if they take some substantial amount of power for themselves. That narrative has already been pushed to a good extent. There are plenty of people who aren't necessarily racist but think society is anti-white male. If you can be convinced of this, then it isn't a very big step to take towards thinking that white people need to consolidate their power through their racial identity. And then mix that in with all the talk about how birthrates of whites are lower than minorities, the situation can seem unsolvable beyond fear tactics and/or murder. It actual makes me wonder if there's a link between Incel culture and supremacy culture: like if they think their lack of a substantial relationship that could produce offspring is actually kind of dooming their race, so their only alternative is violence.
Social media has provided the means but not the motivation, similar to how a gun provides the means of committing a mass shooting but not the motivation. You can blame the gun, but that's the easy option that ignores the underlying pathologies.

I would argue that the rise in white supremacist radicalisation is in direct response to the intersectional ideology that is localizing in academia and then laundering itself into mainstream culture via an increasingly desperate click-driven legacy media. I think they are a perceiving a real threat but are extrapolating beyond rational bounds and are coming to blatantly wrong conclusions. Moreover, I think it's dishonest to point at 8chan et al while ignoring the likes of Tumblr and the various communist subreddits.
 
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ruvikx

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You’re really going to try and justify an attack on a place of worship where no one did anything wrong? And call this guy a resistance fighter?

Take a step back and get a grip.
Get real. Europe's countries have a severe disease called "Cultural Marxist anti-white open borders". We're pretty much the only people on earth told "f-you, you don't get to have countries anymore, you don't get to preserve & defend your own kind, your way of life, your identity". The entire concept of a "white nation" (which Norway for example was since year zero) has become the definition of evil incarnate according to the b*stards who pretend they're morally virtuous for attempting to wipe out white Europeans under the guise of a twisted moral code, i.e. "if you're against Norway becoming majority non-Norwegian, you're an evil racist shithead neo-Nazi supremacist".

It's not Islamophobia to say Islam doesn't belong in Norway, likewise it's not "racist" to say Norway belongs to the Norwegians, I.e. literal Norwegian opeople (the ethnicity who built the place & made it an actual nation). If I flood Saudi Arabia with white Europeans, build churches & tell the local native population "f-you, accept the incoming white Christian majority or else you're racist" people there would call it a literal invasion. And get pissed off.

"muh Christianophobes & anti-white racists fearmongering about the demographic replacement of Muslims by white Christians in Saudi Arabia!".

It wouldn't be so "noble" when viewed under that angle, right?
 

ruvikx

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The internet enables conspiratorial ideologies to create substantial communities that can feed any particular conspiracy 24/7.
We need merely step outside & venture into our actual streets to see there's a problem. It's not 8chan or some random internet site which makes people realize Europe has been invaded. But carry on. This Oslo incident is merely a tip of a huge freaking iceberg which cuts both ways, i.e. even worse insofar as when some random idiot shoots a mosque, it's labelled "terrorism", yet when countless white Europeans are stabbed, raped, murdered over years (since open borders were forced on us)? Nah man, that's just "muh diversity" uplifting everyone & making it a better place.
 
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Folks are so hung up on pedantry that they're sidestepping that this is yet another islamophobe who took in loads of fearmongering and felt compelled to go on a shooting spree in response. Wherever he got the info, it illustrates the problem with giving any credence to that anti-Muslim paranoia... it doesn't take much to leap from ranting about the supposed evils of Muslim immigration to being someone like the Oslo or Christchurch shooters.
You're promoting narrative over facts.
And the bolded shows how you'll employ personal prejudice regardless of factual information.

As with all ideologues and zealots, when the facts don't fit the narrative they don't alter their narrative, they double-down on it and dismiss the troublesome facts instead.
 
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When’s the last time a mass shooter WASNT a straight white male?

Seems to be the vast majority of cases



Do you:

1) Acknowledge facts and change narrative?

or

2) Dismiss troublesome facts and double-down on original narrative regardless?
 
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Doczu

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Do you:

1) Acknowledge facts and change narrative?

or

2) Dismiss troublesome facts and double-down on original narrative regardless?
Nah men, tbis doesn't count.

You can't put honest to god gang warfare with tiny pistols in the same bag as active shooters with black assault guns in no-gun zones.
That aint fair and if i think about it hard enough - it surely is racist or something!
 
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Lamel

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Get real. Europe's countries have a severe disease called "Cultural Marxist anti-white open borders". We're pretty much the only people on earth told "f-you, you don't get to have countries anymore, you don't get to preserve & defend your own kind, your way of life, your identity". The entire concept of a "white nation" (which Norway for example was since year zero) has become the definition of evil incarnate according to the b*stards who pretend they're morally virtuous for attempting to wipe out white Europeans under the guise of a twisted moral code, i.e. "if you're against Norway becoming majority non-Norwegian, you're an evil racist shithead neo-Nazi supremacist".

It's not Islamophobia to say Islam doesn't belong in Norway, likewise it's not "racist" to say Norway belongs to the Norwegians, I.e. literal Norwegian opeople (the ethnicity who built the place & made it an actual nation). If I flood Saudi Arabia with white Europeans, build churches & tell the local native population "f-you, accept the incoming white Christian majority or else you're racist" people there would call it a literal invasion. And get pissed off.

"muh Christianophobes & anti-white racists fearmongering about the demographic replacement of Muslims by white Christians in Saudi Arabia!".

It wouldn't be so "noble" when viewed under that angle, right?
Norway is 3.2% Muslim.
 

sahlberg

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Nah men, tbis doesn't count.

You can't put honest to god gang warfare with tiny pistols in the same bag as active shooters with black assault guns in no-gun zones.
That aint fair and if i think about it hard enough - it surely is racist or something!
Eh, why?
A person shot is a person shot.

If you get shot dead by a black gang banger it is less bad for you than if you get shot dead by some crazy white antifa guy or white neo-nazi or other fucked up retard that happens to be white?
You are dead in both cases, but you are good dead in one case and it doesn't count and you are bad dead in the other case and it definitely counts? That is your message?

Shooting is only bad and counts when done by YT? I call bullshit on this. And you sound like a racist.
 
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sahlberg

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I also posted “possible” in the title. And provided links to conflicting information edited into the OP as it is a developing story.

Seems it was a mistranslation from Norwegian media. However police reported that he still posted online prior to the attack.
Bullshit. You saw an opportunity to demonize people you disagree with and your cock got super hard so you had to post immediately
because the narrative was already established.

Christchurch was live-streamed on Facebook, not any of the chans.
Where is your call to demonize or shut down facebook?

You are just attacking the chans because you don't like them and this is a convenient way to attack and vilify them.
 
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matt404au

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@Lamel I did your homework for you. Pew Research Center estimated the proportion of Muslims in Norway as 3.7% of the total population in 2010 and 5.7% in 2016. What do you think about a 2% jump in 6 years? If we assume a linear relationship, that would make it 6.7% today, or 10.3% in 2030, or 17% in 2050. This is of course ignoring the disparate birth rates of 1.72 births/woman for native Norwegians and 3.48 for Pakistanis (I chose Pakistanis as they are the largest Muslim immigrant demographic in Norway). If we take that into account then it could easily be >25% by 2050. Do you think such large demographic changes in such a short period of time will allow for adequate cultural integration? Can you see any potential cultural or ideological conflicts occurring along the way or do you think it will be smooth sailing? What do you think should be done, if anything? Why?
 

fantomena

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There are no accurate statistics on the amount of muslims in Norway, but SSB calculates 4% in november 2017.


Can't find the english version of the article, but here is the site itself in English: https://www.ssb.no/en/
 
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Lamel

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Bullshit. You saw an opportunity to demonize people you disagree with and your cock got super hard so you had to post immediately
because the narrative was already established.

Christchurch was live-streamed on Facebook, not any of the chans.
Where is your call to demonize or shut down facebook?

You are just attacking the chans because you don't like them and this is a convenient way to attack and vilify them.
Yes, I choose to demonize white supremacists. Everyone should.

I’ve criticized Facebook in this thread and in others, if you choose to read.

@Lamel I did your homework for you. Pew Research Center estimated the proportion of Muslims in Norway as 3.7% of the total population in 2010 and 5.7% in 2016. What do you think about a 2% jump in 6 years? If we assume a linear relationship, that would make it 6.7% today, or 10.3% in 2030, or 17% in 2050. This is of course ignoring the disparate birth rates of 1.72 births/woman for native Norwegians and 3.48 for Pakistanis (I chose Pakistanis as they are the largest Muslim immigrant demographic in Norway). If we take that into account then it could easily be >25% by 2050. Do you think such large demographic changes in such a short period of time will allow for adequate cultural integration? Can you see any potential cultural or ideological conflicts occurring along the way or do you think it will be smooth sailing? What do you think should be done, if anything? Why?
That 2% jump has occurred during peak refugee crisis correct? If so, It’s not accurate to use that to extrapolate. Regardless, yes the demographics will shift based on birth rate. Cultural integration will be key as you say. This starts from education to job prospects to integrative housing. I will need an actual analysis before claiming >25% by 2050.

However, the poster that I was responding to is speaking as if there’s is a colossal emergency/invasion and that somehow justifies the shooters actions, implying he is a “freedom fighter.” That’s both idiotic and disgusting.
 
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matt404au

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Yes, I choose to demonize white supremacists. Everyone should.

I’ve criticized Facebook in this thread and in others, if you choose to read.



That 2% jump has occurred during peak refugee crisis correct? If so, It’s not accurate to use that to extrapolate. Regardless, yes the demographics will shift based on birth rate. Cultural integration will be key as you say. This starts from education to job prospects to integrative housing. I will need an actual analysis before claiming >25% by 2050.

However, the poster that I was responding to is speaking as if there’s is a colossal emergency/invasion and that somehow justifies the shooters actions, implying he is a “freedom fighter.” That’s both idiotic and disgusting.
Norway took in 30,000 refugees during the refugee crisis. That’s 0.6% of their approximate population of 5 million at the time and it’s unlikely that 100% of the refugees were Muslim.
 

Lamel

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Norway took in 30,000 refugees during the refugee crisis. That’s 0.6% of their approximate population of 5 million at the time and it’s unlikely that 100% of the refugees were Muslim.
Alright, thanks for the confirmation. Do you have a source for >25% projected by 2050?

If it does become 25%, does it justify terrorist attacks on muslim places of worship? Or violence towards them in any manner? Or white supremacist rhetoric?
 
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Alright, thanks for the confirmation. Do you have a source for >25% projected by 2050?

If it does become 25%, does it justify terrorist attacks on muslim places of worship? Or violence towards them in any manner? Or white supremacist rhetoric?
Who here is attempting to justify that?

You keep deflecting and straw-manning every time the discussion veers away from your preferred tone.
 

Lamel

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Who here is attempting to justify that?

You keep deflecting and straw-manning every time the discussion veers away from your preferred tone.
If you follow the line of quoting, the original person I responded to with the statistics was equating this attacker to "resistance fighters" in WW2.

As it is a topic about an attack on Muslims in Norway, I'm trying to relate matt404's line of discussion towards the actual topic at hand.
 
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If you follow the line of quoting, the original person I responded to with the statistics was equating this attacker to "resistance fighters" in WW2.

As it is a topic about an attack on Muslims in Norway, I'm trying to relate matt404's line of discussion towards the actual topic at hand.
Your hazy and imprecise interpretations are not sufficient.
Show who is making the specific justifications you are trying to refute.
If you are making an argument based on your own views and projecting them as positions held by others in this discussion then you are straw-manning.
 

matt404au

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Alright, thanks for the confirmation. Do you have a source for >25% projected by 2050?

If it does become 25%, does it justify terrorist attacks on muslim places of worship? Or violence towards them in any manner? Or white supremacist rhetoric?
Why are you focusing on the 25% number which I made clear was my own guess based on the projected 17% from an assumed linear relationship from the Pew Research Center data adjusted to account for the disparate birth rates? You’re not smart enough to play this game. You just barely rank above NI and your dishonest misdirection is transparent as hell.
 

Lamel

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Why are you focusing on the 25% number which I made clear was my own guess based on the projected 17% from an assumed linear relationship from the Pew Research Center data adjusted to account for the disparate birth rates? You’re not smart enough to play this game. You just barely rank above NI and your dishonest misdirection is transparent as hell.
Okay, what exactly would you like to talk about with regards to the points you’ve made in relation to this topic?

The talking point that Muslims are increasing in Norway in a topic about an attack on a mosque by a white supremacist leads to what in terms of discussion? A guy as smart as you should connect the dots.
 

fantomena

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What makes you think Pew Research numbers are accurate? Why don't you try and check out SSB?

Statistics Norway (Norwegian: Statistisk sentralbyrå, abbreviated to SSB) is the Norwegian statistics bureau. It was established in 1876.

Relying on a staff of about 1,000, Statistics Norway publish about 1,000 new statistical releases every year on its web site. All releases are published both in Norwegian and English. In addition a number of edited publications are published, and all are available on the web site for free.

As the central Norwegian office for official government statistics, Statistics Norway provides the public and government with extensive research and analysis activities. It is administratively placed under the Ministry of Finance[1] but operates independently from all government agencies. Statistics Norway has a board appointed by the government. It relies extensively on data from registers, but are also collecting data from surveys and questionnaires, including from cities and municipalities.
 
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Lamel

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The talking point that Muslims are increasing in Norway in a topic about an attack on a mosque by a white supremacist leads to what in terms of discussion? A guy as smart as you should connect the dots.
Aaaaand we're back to the deflecting and steering back to the only talking points willing to be entertained, regardless of how many other factors are at involved.

You keep on doing this, you keep on getting called out for it. You keep on doing it anyway.
 
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fantomena

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To echo the sentiment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway


Where I got the 3.2% number from, which is from 2018.
SSB stated themselves in this article from november 2017 like posted previously that there are no accurate numbers of how many muslims there are in Norway, so any numbers from Pew Research or any other stats organizations are not accurate.

 
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Lamel

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Aaaaand we're back to the deflecting and steering back to the only talking points willing to be entertained, regardless of how many other factors are at involved.

You keep on doing this, you keep on getting called out for it. You keep on doing it anyway.
Do you actually have any opinion of your own regarding this matter? Or is your only job to pester posters you politically disagree with ad nauseum?

If you wish to bring up an actual point that you feel is not being talked about, please do.
 

matt404au

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Okay, what exactly would you like to talk about with regards to the points you’ve made in relation to this topic?

The talking point that Muslims are increasing in Norway in a topic about an attack on a mosque by a white supremacist leads to what in terms of discussion? A guy as smart as you should connect the dots.
This quote chain originated with your snide dismissal of ruvikx’s concerns about the growth of Islam in Norway by stating that they’re only 3.2% of the population. I then pointed out that the rate of growth gives a clearer picture than your myopic view. If you want discussion, consider answering the several questions I asked you above instead of attempting to squirm your way out with deflections.

To echo the sentiment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway


Where I got the 3.2% number from, which is from 2018.
Ok, but your source still shows that Muslims are currently roughly half of the Christian population and they increased by 26.3% from 2014 to 2018 compared to only 5.3% for Christians in the same period. The rate of change is why people like ruvikx are concerned and your deflections and posturing are simply to avoid admitting you’re cornered.
 

Lamel

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This quote chain originated with your snide dismissal of ruvikx’s concerns about the growth of Islam in Norway by stating that they’re only 3.2% of the population. I then pointed out that the rate of growth gives a clearer picture than your myopic view. If you want discussion, consider answering the several questions I asked you above instead of attempting to squirm your way out with deflections.



Ok, but your source still shows that Muslims are currently roughly half of the Christian population and they increased by 26.3% from 2014 to 2018 compared to only 5.3% for Christians in the same period. The rate of change is why people like ruvikx are concerned and your deflections and posturing are simply to avoid admitting you’re cornered.
Not exactly. You’re misreading that statistic. The statistics there are for those groups that are outside of “The Church of Norway.”


There are 4 million+ Christians in Norway, the vast majority of them Lutheran.

There are 166k Muslims.

If Ruvikx is scared enough to consider this an invasion, and to try and justify this attacker’s motives, then he should be called out. But I will let him respond to my “snide dismissal.”
 
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