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"Outlook not good" for Binding of Isaac: Afterbirth on Wii U, N3DS and Vita

The point of my post was that when it comes to Vita sometimes the results of an even apparently fair comparison is not reliable.

Graphics-wise Vita is capable of games like Killzone:Mercenary for example(screen from that wiiu vs vita closed thread)
2451017-5000935788-iU7hn.gif



But unlike on the other consoles almost no developer tries to push the Vita, sometimes they just do the bare minimum or even less like in the case of RE:R2, so we can't say for sure that vita couldn't do better than NFS:MW.

It's not just about games looking better on one system compared to another. You can push the Vita to the moon and it couldn't even hope to produce a game that compares to Wii U's best looking titles, because Wii U's hardware specifications relevant to running a game are vastly superior in EVERY WAY!

Wii U advantages:

- significantly more powerful GPU
- significantly more powerful CPU
- much more RAM
- much more internal memory
- much higher storage capacity

Vita advantages:






Tyrone's comments are completely baseless and anyone remotely defending them should be derided for it.


If my vita could run this... My god.
I guess something that might be close is that new SAO game


I don't think you understand how big XBX is. It's bigger than The Witcher 3, Fallout 4, and Skyrim COMBINED!!!

Just look at this scale

Hopper Cam

latest



Hopper Cam to Full Map

GoodnaturedOblongEstuarinecrocodile.gif



Full Map

xenoblade_x.jpg



So no, no game on the Vita is going to come close to Xenoblade Chronicles X in terms of graphical fidelity, or the scale of the game. Don't let this idiot developer delude your mind into thinking otherwise.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood
It's not just about games looking better on one system compared to another. You can push the Vita to the moon and it couldn't even hope to produce a game that compares to Wii U's best looking titles, because Wii U's hardware specifications relevant to running a game are vastly superior in EVERY WAY!

Wii U advantages:

- significantly more powerful GPU
- significantly more powerful CPU
- much more RAM
- much more internal memory
- much higher storage capacity

Vita advantages:






Tyrone's comments are completely baseless and anyone remotely defending them should be derided for it.





I don't think you understand how big XBX. It's bigger than The Witcher 3, Fallout 4, and Skyrim COMBINED!!!

Just look at this scale

Hopper Cam

latest



Hopper Cam to Full Map

GoodnaturedOblongEstuarinecrocodile.gif



Full Map

xenoblade_x.jpg



So no, no game on the Vita is going to come close to Xenoblade Chronicles X in terms of graphical fidelity, or the scale of the game. Don't let this idiot developer delude your mind into thinking otherwise.
There's a misunderstanding, i was not saying that vita is as powerful as the wiiu.
EDIT:
you forgot a vita advantage though:
Small screen with 1/4 of the pixels means that you need less power and less complex assets to make a game look comparable to a ps360 game.
 

shaowebb

Member
Understandable, the Vita version could barely run Rebirth, let alone Afterbirth with all the new shit on screen.

Wii U though?

Nicalis thinks the Wii U is barely above Vita so likely no. Thing is it's Nicalis...not really a heavy hitter on opinions for these things.
 

Acerac

Banned
Nicalis thinks the Wii U is barely above Vita so likely no. Thing is it's Nicalis...not really a heavy hitter on opinions for these things.

I'd really love for him to speak in this thread. I'd be extremely interested in hearing him elaborate. He has a GAF account, though probably doesn't know this thread exists.
 
There's a misunderstanding, i was not saying that vita is as powerful as the wiiu.

So what is your argument then? That using Vita games as examples of how powerful Vita's hardware is can be misleading because those examples may not have been fully taking advantage of Vita's hardware? If that's your argument, I agree, but that can be said about any console.

Thankfully, we have specs to give us a reasonable frame of reference to base our expectations on, and not just the games themselves.
 
Nicalis doesn't want to spend time and resources, insert lazy devs quote. At least Ska studios is bringing Salt and Sanctuary to ps4 and vita.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood
So what is your argument then? That using Vita games as examples of how powerful Vita's hardware is can be misleading because those examples may not have been fully taking advantage of Vita's hardware? If that's your argument, I agree, but that can be said about any console.

Thankfully, we have specs to give us a reasonable frame of reference to base our expectations on, and not just the games themselves.

Yes my argument was that many vita versions are rather cheap or lazy and no it's not the same situation as the other consoles because in their case the efforts made for a version and the other are usually similar so a comparison is fair.
 

Kathian

Banned
The original game was running Java ffs; they just don't care about taking time or spending to get it right.

Were having a Vita vs Wii U discussion? seriously? Both systems are clearly capable of running this.
 
EDIT:
you forgot a vita advantage though:
Small screen with 1/4 of the pixels means that you need less power and less complex assets to make a game look comparable to a ps360 game.

That's not an advantage when screen real estate is limited to that size. And even then, just because assets can resolve at lower resolutions, it doesn't mean that they compare to last gen console games. There's more to a game's graphics than texture resolution. Vita having less pixels isn't going to magically give its games better lighting models and particle effects.

Yes my argument was that many vita versions are rather cheap or lazy and no it's not the same situation as the other consoles because in their case the efforts made for a version and the other are usually similar so a comparison is fair.

The comparison you're talking about happens with consoles too.

This comparison is from THIS GENERATION of consoles

KrdRXY.gif



People make fallacious comparisons all the time, with any console. It's called cherry picking, and people have been doing it for decades.
 

Riki

Member
WiiU is as capable of running Afterbirth as Nicalis is capable of running their mouths off on baseless crap.
 
I am not even sure why this comparison between Vita and Wii U is necessary.

For starters, Vita has to run on a battery meaning its power source are limited, and capped in some cases to increase battery life. Sony throttled its CPU/GPU at some point to likely go for a better battery life instead of full power and has allowed the developers to gain some access to it for high profile games, as seen with Killzone Mercenary.

Wii U, meanwhile, is a fully dedicated console that has no issues with a potential battery life for the main console. It obviously has the better hardware to back it up.

The only comparison that we can even make between both platforms is if Vita SDK is easier to develop for compared to Wii U. This means that developers can port and optimize their games much easier to Vita compared to Wii U. But this doesn't mean that Vita is actually comparable to Wii U, it is not even close at all.

That said, the comment is from a developer who is not exactly known for their work around here, so it is best to ignore it and just move on.
 

Zubz

Banned
As in censoring news? (Which they haven't done) or selling the game to Nintendo fans? (Which I think they've done)

I think they mean for Nicalis. GoNintendo wins regardless, but Nicalis is paying for a site that caters to an audience that they've been alienating. Like, I'm 90% sure that the GoNintendo banner's still using BoI art.

I'd love to see someone from Nicalis popping their head in here, but in the past, it's just been Tyrone showing up, defending Nicalis' actions, and getting swarmed by GAF when they realize his defense doesn't answer much and just leads to further questions. And then he just leaves without responding. Which seems like a recurring pattern with Nicalis.
 

Nightbird

Member
I'd love to see someone from Nicalis popping their head in here, but in the past, it's just been Tyrone showing up, defending Nicalis' actions, and getting swarmed by GAF when they realize his defense doesn't answer much and just leads to further questions. And then he just leaves without responding. Which seems like a recurring pattern with Nicalis.


He won't appear here.

Unless he really thinks about defending this
 

pizzacat

Banned
They're lying but it at least sound better than saying "not going waste time on selling 6 copies on dead consoles"


Unless their vita and Wii u sales were huge in the past?
 

sörine

Banned
They're lying but it at least sound better than saying "not going waste time on selling 6 copies on dead consoles"


Unless their vita and Wii u sales were huge in the past?
Their Vita userbase should be huge thanks to crossbuy and Plus curation alone. The game seemed to chart high on both Wii U and 3DS eShops too, which was a surprise for the latter given it was n3DS exclusive.

I really don't think any sales argument washes here as Vita and Wii U have both proven commercially viable for this sort of stuff despite their "failed platform" tarrings. I can't imagine the game did any better on Xbox One either, yet we don't see Nicalis downplaying it's chances of getting Afterbirth. I think it really is a capability issue, although that speaks more to Nicalis' own capabilities rather than any of the platform's mentioned hardware performance.
 

Nightbird

Member
You know what's sad for me?

I was really thinking about getting BoI on the Vita.
A Friend of mine let me play rebirth two weeks ago, and I was surprised just how much I enjoyed the game since I thought it was not my kind of game. But now that Afterbirth is not coming, my hype died. Fast.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood
That's not an advantage when screen real estate is limited to that size. And even then, just because assets can resolve at lower resolutions, it doesn't mean that they compare to last gen console games. There's more to a game's graphics than texture resolution. Vita having less pixels isn't going to magically give its games better lighting models and particle effects.


The comparison you're talking about happens with consoles too.

This comparison is from THIS GENERATION of consoles

KrdRXY.gif



People make fallacious comparisons all the time, with any console. It's called cherry picking, and people have been doing it for decades.

1)do you even know what vita is capable of? Vita proved that when someone gives a shit it can handle ps3 games very well, many ps3 ports(games that were made with a powerful home console in mind, not with all the limitations of a handheld) are relatively on par or even better on vita(considering that those vita versions run at the maximum resolution while on ps3 not), vita can do effects very well, in fact some KZ:M effects are amazing even for a ps3 game.

2)in my previous post i was talking about "versions" in the sense of versions of the same game, like NFS:MW on wiiu and vita, but you didn't get the point so i'll follow your reasoning, maybe this time i'll be more lucky.

I didn't do cherry picking with the RE:R vs RE:R2 comparison, RE:R2 on vita looks bad all the time with very low framerates.
In theory it's a fair comparison, think about it, they are one the sequel of the other and they run on the same engine, in theory RE:R2 on a more powerful hardware should look a lot better than RE:R on a weaker hardware, that's what happens on all console except on vita, as you can see RE:R looks way better than RE:R2, does that mean that Vita is less powerful than the 3ds or that RE:R2 looks worse than RE:R? No it just means that the vita versions of RE:R2 is bad, that comparison is totally useless because RE:R2 can says absolutely nothing about vita.

You are used to think that a comparison between console x vs console y versions of the same game is fair and in general it's true because they are usually made with the same efforts so the final result depends on the hardware power, but vita got some very cheap/lazy/whatever ports, if you use those as a scale for vita's power it would be at the level of a gameboy, if you ignore that vita got some very bad ports to be almost unplayable then you clearly don't know what you are talking about.
Vita got some very good ps3 ports, again games made with a powerful home console in mind, not the limitations of a handheld, whoever played even just one of those knows that vita can do way better than RE:R2 and that developer's skills and efforts are the most important factors for the final result.
 

cw_sasuke

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free
They're lying but it at least sound better than saying "not going waste time on selling 6 copies on dead consoles"


Unless their vita and Wii u sales were huge in the past?
It doesn't really sound better at all. Just being honest would have been fine in this case... It's not worth the investment and move on.
 
So you say every developer should be on NeoGaf to communicate and listen to the opinion of the vocal minority?

Ok.

I wouldn't hold it against any developer, but it is a nice move indeed to hear your customers out- even if they're the vocal minority. There's also the fact that Tyrone (as it seems) has a GAF account already, so he's able to communicate through this website with the fans; therefore I do not see why he shouldn't.


Given the tone of the tweets, I'm not sure how interested Nicalis is in having a legitimate back and forth.

The person I was responding to wasn't saying that Nicalis was interested in such a thing, they were questioning WHY Tyrone should.
 
1)do you even know what vita is capable of? Vita proved that when someone gives a shit it can handle ps3 games very well, many ps3 ports(games that were made with a powerful home console in mind, not with all the limitations of a handheld) are relatively on par or even better on vita(considering that those vita versions run at the maximum resolution while on ps3 not), vita can do effects very well, in fact some KZ:M effects are amazing even for a ps3 game.

The Vita cannot handled deferred rendering like the PS3. There is nothing in KZ:M that could consider be amazing on the PS3 and it's not like an open world game where you can interact with the game world. Ninja Gaiden Sigma + looks worse than the Ps3 version and apart from the lighting, looks worse than Black on the Xbox and running half the framerate.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood
The Vita cannot handled deferred rendering like the PS3. There is nothing in KZ:M that could consider be amazing on the PS3 and it's not like an open world game where you can interact with the game world. Ninja Gaiden Sigma + looks worse than the Ps3 version and apart from the lighting, looks worse than Black on the Xbox and running half the framerate.

KZ:M looks better than some older ps3 fps, after all it's based on KZ3 that's one of the best looking ps3 fps.

As i said some ps3 ports are very good, NGS+ is not one of them(but not even as bad as others though)
 
1)do you even know what vita is capable of? Vita proved that when someone gives a shit it can handle ps3 games very well, many ps3 ports(games that were made with a powerful home console in mind, not with all the limitations of a handheld) are relatively on par or even better on vita(considering that those vita versions run at the maximum resolution while on ps3 not), vita can do effects very well, in fact some KZ:M effects are amazing even for a ps3 game.

2)in my previous post i was talking about "versions" in the sense of versions of the same game, like NFS:MW on wiiu and vita, but you didn't get the point so i'll follow your reasoning, maybe this time i'll be more lucky.

I didn't do cherry picking with the RE:R vs RE:R2 comparison, RE:R2 on vita looks bad all the time with very low framerates.
In theory it's a fair comparison, think about it, they are one the sequel of the other and they run on the same engine, in theory RE:R2 on a more powerful hardware should look a lot better than RE:R on a weaker hardware, that's what happens on all console except on vita, as you can see RE:R looks way better than RE:R2, does that mean that Vita is less powerful than the 3ds or that RE:R2 looks worse than RE:R? No it just means that the vita versions of RE:R2 is bad, that comparison is totally useless because RE:R2 can says absolutely nothing about vita.

You are used to think that a comparison between console x vs console y versions of the same game is fair and in general it's true because they are usually made with the same efforts so the final result depends on the hardware power, but vita got some very cheap/lazy/whatever ports, if you use those as a scale for vita's power it would be at the level of a gameboy, if you ignore that vita got some very bad ports to be almost unplayable then you clearly don't know what you are talking about.
Vita got some very good ps3 ports, again games made with a powerful home console in mind, not the limitations of a handheld, whoever played even just one of those knows that vita can do way better than RE:R2 and that developer's skills and efforts are the most important factors for the final result.


I don't know what Vita kool-aid you've been drinking, but I'd like to try some.

Now YOU'RE making flawed comparisons. Just because a ps3 game has been successfully ported over to Vita without any noticeable downgrades, it doesn't mean that the Vita is as powerful as the ps3. We know they're not comparable because the disparity in hardware specs between the Vita and ps3 is too great. However, many times, a developer will compensate for this disparity by inventing new tricks to help approximate a similar look between platforms (Shin'en did this when they ported games from Wii to 3DS).


Anyway, the basis of your argument is not unique to Vita. It is the nature of multiplatform development. You say that on consoles, if there are multiple versions of the same game, they typically receive the same amount of effort. First of all, this is patently false. There are multiple factors that can determine the effort invested into of a multiplatform project, typically with market potential and hardware disparity being the two biggest factors.

If it is perceived that the product won't sell as well on a certain platform compared to another, or that the return on investment of a product won't be very good, the effort invested into the respective platform will be less. Case in point, many multiplatform games on Wii U. In fact, many of the Wii U versions got cancelled simply because the publishers felt that pouring any more money into the development of the Wii U version wouldn't be worth it. If games sold well on Wii U, developers would just make a special version that played to the Wii U's strengths instead of doing a straight port. However, they don't do this, because they don't believe the extra effort would be worth it.

Even in a hypothetical scenario where the effort is equal between consoles, the disparity between consoles may prevent the developer from fully utilizing the performance of the more powerful consoles. Considering this, a game that looks the same on both platforms is still not a fair comparison of power between consoles, because the power of one of those consoles isn't really being fully utilized.

Case in point, Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward.

3DS version:

b00030d6.jpg


Vita version:

258fa017.jpg


They look nearly identical, save for the 3DS version having stereoscopic 3D and the Vita version having a higher resolution output. Regardless, this is STILL NOT a fair comparison of power between the platforms, as we know that their performance is not the same.


Also, the point in bringing up cherry picking wasn't to say that that's what you were doing, but to say that, essentially, any deliberate example shown for the purpose of comparing the performance potential between platforms that neglects to present an accurate and fair comparison of said platforms is a form of cherry picking. In the case of the 3DS/Vita Resident Evil example, the cherry picking would be choosing a game where the 3DS version looked better than the Vita version and arguing that 3DS was more powerful, while neglecting to choose a game where the Vita version was superior, despite many examples being available.


Ultimately, you've gotta stop this Vita persecution complex. There is no ps3-like potential hidden inside the Vita that the developers are just too lazy to use. Sometimes it gets the short end of the stick because it's not a very successful product, and hasn't appreciably penetrated the market, so developers aren't gonna put much effort into it. But the same can be said about Wii U, and to a lesser extent Xbox One.

Exclusives are where these systems will shine, but don't expect great results for a version of a multiplatform game that's on a platform that doesn't perform well on the market.
 
The original game was running Java ffs; they just don't care about taking time or spending to get it right.

Were having a Vita vs Wii U discussion? seriously? Both systems are clearly capable of running this.

Original was written in flash because that's what the developer was comfortable with and he only had a small development time. Check the story first mate.

Indie developers tend to not have all the resources, time and expertise that big companies have to polish performance.
 
Wii U port is definitely doable. No doubt in my mind. Vita port? I would like to say also doable, particular if they used the expanded memory functionality some new games use. I think my biggest issue with this entire thing is how can they do a half assed version on New 3DS, a substantially weaker piece of tech than the Vita, but can't port an expansion to hardware that runs the game well enough (Vita) and I imagine just fine (Wii U)? Even if it is at a performance sacrifice, why not just make it two different builds if they have to. I can understand not wanting to do the New 3DS version for technical reasons, but the Vita/Wii U excuse is either a lie and they won't get enough sales, or more likely, Rebirth is simply a bloated game that needs way more resources than it looks on the surface and they can't be bothered.
 

2+2=5

The Amiga Brotherhood
Just because a ps3 game has been successfully ported over to Vita without any noticeable downgrades, it doesn't mean that the Vita is as powerful as the ps3

Can you tell me where i said that vita is as powerful as the ps3(hence rather close to the wiiu)?

I have never said that Vita is as powerful as the wiiu or the ps3, i just said that vita can do wonders, ps3 looking games, but too many times developers didn't do their work properly so it's not fair to compare games made with different levels of efforts.

Stop thinking about the wiiu! No one is touching your wiiu! I'm not the one here with persecution complex, my post were all about vita and its games and i couldn't care less than the power of the wiiu or other consoles, you people started making comparison between vita and xbox, ps3, wiiu and whatever console, not me, i made comparisons between efforts, not power comparison, all my reasoning was about different efforts and what VITA is capable of, not other consoles.

If you finally understand what i mean then ok if not whatever, i'm tired of this dumb discussion.
 
Can you tell me where i said that vita is as powerful as the ps3(hence rather close to the wiiu)?

I have never said that Vita is as powerful as the wiiu or the ps3, i just said that vita can do wonders, ps3 looking games, but too many times developers didn't do their work properly so it's not fair to compare games made with different levels of efforts.

Stop thinking about the wiiu! No one is touching your wiiu! I'm not the one here with persecution complex, my post were all about vita and its games and i couldn't care less than the power of the wiiu or other consoles, you people started comparing the power of the xbox,ps3,wiiu and whatever console in my reasoning, not me, all my reasoning was about efforts and what VITA is capable of, not other consoles.

You may not have directly said that Vita is as powerful as a ps3, but that's the implication you're making when you say that "the Vita can handle ps3 games very well".

If we're to define a ps3 game as a game on the ps3 that exemplifies the level of power that the ps3 has, then no, the Vita can not handle ps3 games very well. It would be more accurate to say that the Vita can handle ports of ps3 games. Just like Vita could handle ports of ps4 games, or ports of high-end PC games. In other words, it doesn't really say much about Vita's power to compare its games to games from more powerful machines.

And sorry to burst your bubble, but you did not talk about Vita in a vacuum. The whole reason we're having this conversation is because you decided to compare Vita to more powerful consoles. I brought up the current generation of consoles (not just Wii U) to demonstrate to you why your argument about Vita being treated unfairly is not unique to Vita. It literally happens EVERY GENERATION, and at least one console always ends up getting the short end of the stick.

Your entire argument revolves around this only being an issue for Vita, when in reality that's simply not true. I then explain to you why it's not true by bringing up consoles where the same thing has happened, and then you fail to understand how the comparison is relevant.

I don't know what else to tell you but to re-read what I've already posted, because your argument doesn't make any sense.

EDIT:

Yeah, you're right, the discussion is dumb. I'm done talking about it.
 

sörine

Banned
I think my biggest issue with this entire thing is how can they do a half assed version on New 3DS, a substantially weaker piece of tech than the Vita, but can't port an expansion to hardware that runs the game well enough (Vita) and I imagine just fine (Wii U)?
New 3DS and Vita are roughly comparable CPU wise for performance (quad core 804MHz ARM11 vs quad core 333/444 MHz Cortex-A9). They're also not far apart in RAM allocation either (3DS has 64-128MB less after OS/system reserves, but it's also faster). In terms of overall capability the systems are probably closer than Vita and Wii U are now, the n3DS spec bump was actually pretty gigantic. There's no good reason for the n3DS BOIR to be as rough as it is, it's just sloppy work on the part of Nicalis.
 
A bit annoying as Vita was really the ultimate BoI experience for me. Honestly, of the time I spent platinuming Rebirth, the split was 95% Vita and 5% PS4.
But you can just remote play the ps4 version, right? If you can do that I'm good. My vita gets a lot of use on the couch or in bed but it never leaves the house.
 

True Fire

Member
Nicalis is such a mediocre company. Do you know why people criticize indie games as cheap takes on retro? Because they're thinking of Nicalis.
 
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