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Palestine vs Israel: An image of history

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besada said:
They weren't allowed to wear a uniform. They were fedayeen, trained and armed by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. They were used as both terrorist forces and as troops in the Six-Day War. Maybe that impinges into state run terrorism, or a sort of mujahadinsim, but they were based and trained in the previously mention Arab nations with the consent of the ruling bodies.
The only semi-regular Fedayeen unit I'm aware of was the one the Egyptians were operating from Gaza in the 50s, and it was mostly disbanded after the 56 war.
And in any case, such units if existed, were not major part of the forces the IDF was facing in the 67 war.
 
When the British wanted to dismantle the Ottoman empire they used and created the young Turks to mislead the people into thinking that the Ottoman Turkish sultanate was the problem.

When people joined the young Turks to revolt against the Turkish sultan and removed the sultan, the young Turks eventually sold the nation out. It soon became apparent to Ataturk that both the young turks and the sultanate were agents of the British, being used to weaken the Turkish people. It almost ended in complete tragedy for the Turks had ataturk not been as wise as he was. Had turks been forced at gun point to live out the treaty of sevres, we would not exist today.

America still doesn't technically recognise the borders of turkey today, even though it is part of NATO.

I see the same thing with hamas and yasser arafat before. They are agents in this grand game. The Palestinians unfortunately will die or relocate, the powers just need an excuse and that excuse is hamas, another puppet of the powers.

In the next 5 to 10 years i predict we are going to see a mass genocide of all the peoples of that region. These evil men never stopped planning and acting out their aims. Their wars never ended.
 
Remedy said:
When the British wanted to dismantle the Ottoman empire they used and created the young Turks to mislead the people into thinking that the Ottoman Turkish sultanate was the problem.

When people joined the young Turks to revolt against the Turkish sultan and removed the sultan, the young Turks eventually sold the nation out. It soon became apparent to Ataturk that both the young turks and the sultanate were agents of the British, being used to weaken the Turkish people. It almost ended in complete tragedy for the Turks had ataturk not been as wise as he was. Had turks been forced at gun point to live out the treaty of sevres, we would not exist today.

I see the same thing with hamas and yasser arafat before. They are agents in this grand game. The Palestinians unfortunately will die or relocate, the powers just need an excuse and that excuse is hamas, another puppet of the powers.

In the next 5 to 10 years i predict we are going to see a mass genocide of all the peoples of that region. These evil men never stopped planning and acting out their aims. Their wars never ended.
Don't assume evil master plan where stupidity, cruelty, greed and vengeance will suffice.
 
If only those terrorists were not employed by the same hand. In order for the mass extermination of the Palestinians to continue, their leaders need to be seen as arrogant and uncompromising. The Palestinians were set up with HAMAS, it was engineered by MOSSAD and the CIA as well as MI5.

Israel and the powers have all the money and facilities to create such circumstance to their advantage.

Just read on Leo Strauss and his school of thought, then find out how the leaders of these powers are his pupils.
 
Stoney Mason said:
If these times were just a minute off, I could actually believe Kastrioti was APF's alt when he wanted to just cut the bullshit and get down to business.
Mhh. I don't have a problem expressing my opinions here.
 
Kastrioti said:
Stable Democracy FTW.
Islamic Theocracy FTL.

As demonstrated by Iraq, the sort of government running the country isn't the biggest concern. Stability, security, food, power, water...these are bigger concerns than anything else. So even if they were under a theocracy, or a dictatorship, or a democracy, it really doesn't matter if it gets results. Hamas got results, and that is why they were elected.

You seem to have trouble grasping a very simple concept. Secondly, you asked if anyone would want Israel under Muslim control, Jews didn't have it bad under Muslim control in the past. Again, this is common knowledge when it comes to the issue of Israel/Palestine.

Judging from your posts you seem to be one who isn't interested in solutions, but rather, pointless arguments. Your attitude is something the World needs less of, for there to be a chance at co-existence between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
 
FightyF said:
As demonstrated by Iraq, the sort of government running the country isn't the biggest concern. Stability, security, food, power, water...these are bigger concerns than anything else. So even if they were under a theocracy, or a dictatorship, or a democracy, it really doesn't matter if it gets results. Hamas got results, and that is why they were elected.

You seem to have trouble grasping a very simple concept. Secondly, you asked if anyone would want Israel under Muslim control, Jews didn't have it bad under Muslim control in the past. Again, this is common knowledge when it comes to the issue of Israel/Palestine.

Judging from your posts you seem to be one who isn't interested in solutions, but rather, pointless arguments. Your attitude is something the World needs less of, for there to be a chance at co-existence between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
"Jews didn't have it bad under Muslim control in the past." As dhimmis or during the harassment, persecution and the confiscation of property that preceded the Jewish exodus from Arab lands?

Jewish Populations of Arab Countries: 1948 and 2001

Aden 8,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~0 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Algeria 140,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~0 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Egypt 75,000-80,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~100 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Iraq 135,000-140,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~200 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Lebanon 5,000 (1948 Jewish population) < 100 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Libya 35,000-38,000 (1948 Jewish population) 0 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Morocco 250,000-265,000 (1948 Jewish population) 5,230 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Syria 15,000-30,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~100 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Tunisia 50,000-105,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~1,000 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Yemen 45,000-55,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~200 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Total: 758,000 - 866,000 (1948 Jewish population) <6,500 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
Dhimmis were subject to legal and social inferiority, and discrimination was permanent, necessary, and "inherent in the system and institutionalized in law and practice," due to the fact that Dhimmis were not allowed to testify against a Muslim in court. Dhimmis were often subject to violence and crimes committed by Muslims; despite strict regulations to keep them on a lower status than that of Muslims, they often managed to secure considerable economic wealth and occasionally (though extremely rarely) some measure of political power.
In all schools of Islamic jurisprudence, except the Hanafi, the maximum punishment for the murder of a dhimmi, if perpetrated by a Muslim, was the payment of blood money; no death penalty was possible. For Maliki and Hanbali schools of jurisprudence, the value of a dhimmi's life was one-half the value of a Muslim's life; in the Shafi'i school, Jews and Christians were worth one-third of a Muslim and Zoroastrians were worth just one-fifteenth. The Hanafi school, which represents the majority of Sunni Muslims, however, believes that the murder of a dhimmi must be punishable by death, citing a hadith according to which Muhammad ordered the execution of a Muslim who killed a dhimmi.[96]

A peculiar practice developed in Yemen, where Arab tribes collected jizya from Jews, offering them protection. If a Muslim from one tribe killed a Jew protected by another tribe, then the other tribe could retaliate by killing a Jew protected by the tribe of the murderer. As a result, two Jews were murdered, while no direct sanctions were imposed on the Muslims.
Sure sounds like it was a veritable utopia for the Jews, strange why they left so suddenly.
 
All of this over a small piece of land in the desert. B-B-B-BUT MAH GOD TOLD ME IT WAS FOH MEEEE!!!! IT'S IN THE BAAAI BUL!!!!

Someone should start writing about a fictional god that blesed his clan of being the... CHOSEN ONES. Maybe in a few thousands years half the world will follow them like sheep.

castle007 said:
that is so sad :(

and what is their excuse?? "but it is the promised land "

But as a muslim I know for a fact that this will change. Because one of the major signs of judgement day is freeing Jerusalem.

Is that the one where trees and walls talk to muslims to help guide them in killing all the infidels and non-muslims? I'd say keep praying for those virgins, you have a good while to wait on that.
 
One thing you have to say about mormons, at least when they got driven from their lands at least they had the decency to change their made up stories and move their Zion out west.
 
cicero said:
"Jews didn't have it bad under Muslim control in the past." As dhimmis or during the harassment, persecution and the confiscation of property that preceded the Jewish exodus from Arab lands?

Jewish Populations of Arab Countries: 1948 and 2001

Aden 8,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~0 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Algeria 140,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~0 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Egypt 75,000-80,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~100 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Iraq 135,000-140,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~200 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Lebanon 5,000 (1948 Jewish population) < 100 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Libya 35,000-38,000 (1948 Jewish population) 0 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Morocco 250,000-265,000 (1948 Jewish population) 5,230 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Syria 15,000-30,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~100 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Tunisia 50,000-105,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~1,000 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Yemen 45,000-55,000 (1948 Jewish population) ~200 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)
Total: 758,000 - 866,000 (1948 Jewish population) <6,500 (Estimated Jewish population 2001)

Right after the creation of Israel we saw a lot of friction between Jews and Muslims in these lands. Secondly, Israel encouraged the exodus, and there are some Jews who allege that they themselves bombed Synagogues in Yemen to pressure Jews who were comfortable living there, to move to Israel.

Your point doesn't factor in life for Jews prior to the creation of Israel.

Your next point attempts to, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi


Sure sounds like it was a veritable utopia for the Jews, strange why they left so suddenly.

You're trying to show that life wasn't great for Jewish criminals, and that isn't the focus of this discussion. We are talking about everyday Jews in general. We're talking about their freedom of religion and living life in general. As the article states, "However, persecution in the form of violent and active repression was rare and atypical."

I've talked to many Jews on the matter and most agree with the assertion that they had a good life under Muslim rule, especially when compared to being under the rule of others. They know of Jewish scientists and judges that thrived and made large impacts on Jewish society, while living under Muslim rule.

Of course, they don't think it's ideal, they much rather prefer living in a Jewish state. My point was, that Kastroiti's claims weren't based on anything substantial.
 
FightyF said:
You're trying to show that life wasn't great for Jewish criminals
So basically you didn't understand what you read, and... oh wait I forgot who I was responding to for a second.
 
APF said:
So basically you didn't understand what you read, and... oh wait I forgot who I was responding to for a second.

I guess you didn't read the wikipedia article.

I do suppose that with all those facts on one page...wikipedia is your kryptonite. Stay away APF, stay away!
 
Dies Iræ said:
Oh, shit.

Let's dissect this baby.



To begin, this isn't a Jewish issue but rather an issue of state, the nation of Israel. It's secular. Attempting to argue that we're out to "blame the Jews" presupposes that Jews should be, for whatever reason, immune to criticism. Are they angelic, above the law, a priviledged group of oppressed peoples living in a "savage" region? Come now. That's all implied at the outset of your post, and it's idiotic. Religious affiliation has nothing to do with the issue at hand: illegal occupation of the Palestinians by the secular state of Israel. Again, this has nothing to do with Jews. But really, even if it did, what's wrong with "blaming the Jews" if they're at fault?



I'm not sure what your history 12 teacher told you, but your account of the creation of the state of Israel is rather, well, wrong. Great Britain held, due to racist and imperialist reasons, a mandate, through the League of Nations, over the nation of Palestine. It was a nation. Great Britain, not terribly keen on the idea of a "Jewish" Israel and more interested in bilateral negotiations with the Palestinians, became the victim of Zionist terrorist attacks. Naturally, they fled, leaving the Arabs to fend for themselves, with a huge Jewish population (thanks to the Balfour Declaration). The Zionists opposed Arabs in Israel primarily because they wanted a "Jewish" state and democracy would, due to the higher Arabic population, certainly not serve their interests. Obviously the rest of history is self-evident (with back-and-forth conflicts until the penultimate Six Day War). The point is that Zionist plans for the state of Israel predate WWII and their machinations circumvented Western authority. You can't blame Great Britain - they wanted a democratic Palestine with a majority Arabic population. The Zionists did not.

Your glorious account of the Jews fighting "barely-armed" against presumably unwarranted attacks by the "revolting" Palestinians is pure historical revisionism - or perhaps simple willful ignorance. The Palestinians happily accepted Jews being REJECTED by Western Europe. Their "revolt" was against a Zionist nationalist/terrorist movement that aimed to dissolve the Palestinian state, displace the majority of Arabs, and establish a Jewish state. The Zionists were the aggressors in this instance, and the Palestinians defendants of their internationally recognized state of two thousand (!) years. You cannot present history in any other way. The Zionist claim to Israel was false and any military action taken to steal Palestinian land was illegal.

Please.



That's an unsupportable claim since that's exactly what happened. How do you explain the violent, illegal creation of Israel, the violent expulsion of Great Britain, and the equally horrific displacement of the Palestinian people if not as a concerted effort to "take over the land"?



Again, this is a very weak argument. Land is not an eternally owned commodity - it's a legally prescribed region representing a set doctrine of laws and systems. Jews resided in Israel, which was never during their tenure a legally recognized state, several millenia ago. Jews also resided in practically the entirety of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and other regions in North Africa/the Middle East, given their nomadic status. Do they have land claims in Iraq? The Palestinian people, however, had an internationally, legally recognized state with a historical and cultural claim to its land. I like to think that we've progressed enough not to define legal states based around religious claims - those are ideals of a bygone, Crusade-era... Kingdom of Israel, home of Hebrews? No dice.



That's a blatant lie. Again, you're trying to use irrelevant historical pretense to justify something that's about the present moment. After Israel had finished its main illegal expansionism into Arabic territories (ie. Six Day War), clearly defined, internationally agreed upon, although unfairly imposed upon Palestine, national borders were set by the UN (I believe in '65?). To the suprise of few, Israel has not recognized these borders and continued to expand its illegal occupation (into Gaza, the Golan Heights, etc.).

And to think, all of this has yet to take into account the human rights violations taken against the Palestinians and the myriad of illegal invasions of border nations by Israel since '48 (most notably: Lebanon has been invaded 5 times, resulting in the creation and radicalization of Hezbollah).

End scene.

is there a link to verify this?? thanks in advance
 
just make everyone move out. Its too historically and religiously important to all sides to ever agree on one or other faction living in Jerusalem or the surrounding areas. So fuck them all and make it into a giant Center Parcs
 
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