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[cryptoadam]

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/12496/palestinians-gays

Interesting contrast here. No article to link but Israel just had its pride festival with something like 250 000 people attending (the country only has 8 million people, that is like 9 Million Americans). While Palestinians cant even accept a candid camera gay joke.

Leftist won't care though, they have no problem "intersecting" with dictators/islamist and other gay bashers.

 

[Gander]

Well you are opening the very touchy can of worms called "You can't criticize Islam." That is what it boils down to because when talk about some the of the archaic polices, treatment of women, or any wrong doing by Muslims in the past. That is the answer.

 

[highrider]

I have no problem criticizing fundamentalist Islam or Christianity. The left has always conflated that with racism and it’s a stupid response, but there are also people on the right who genuinely do have a problem with the religion in its entirety, so it’s a self perpetuating cycle of outrage and dumb hot takes. Like any religion, if you take the teachings at face value they are pretty fucked up, so I’m hoping they really liked bizarre metaphors in ancient times.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I am very confused as to why Palestine is the impetus for this thread.

All the Abrahamic religions declare homosexuality abominable, so why is Palestine being singled out here?

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

I thought "there's no place for gays in the middle east" established by now?

 

[Spheyr]

I am very confused as to why Palestine is the impetus for this thread.

All the Abrahamic religions declare homosexuality abominable, so why is Palestine being singled out here?

Go try to hold a Pride event there and you'll see why.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Like any religion, if you take the teachings at face value they are pretty fucked up, so I’m hoping they really liked bizarre metaphors in ancient times.

the thing about christianity is that it can be interpreted in many different ways thats one of the reason why it melded into western culture fairly easily. islam cant be and i hate to use this saynig but 'it is what it is'. its very rigid in its teachings

 

[JDB]

You can simultaneously think Palestinia's stance on gay rights is a disgrace and think Israel's human rights violations are a disgrace as well.
I find it amusing every other thread here ends with a sentence whining about (((the left))). For the love of god start some conversations without throwing shit at the other side.

 

[Composer]

Go try to hold a Pride event there and you'll see why.

Don't act like you care about LGBTQ rights.


And the easiest response to the rest of this thread: just wait another 30 years. This has nothing to do with religion. It's about social progression. America just only recently started accepting gays in the last 40 years. Don't turn around and act all high and mighty as if America + Christianity had been accepting of differing sexualities throughout history. This is like gloating about being in 1st place.

 

[Composer]

the thing about christianity is that it can be interpreted in many different ways thats one of the reason why it melded into western culture fairly easily. islam cant be and i hate to use this saynig but 'it is what it is'. its very rigid in its teachings

This is so asinine it hurts my brain. What's up with 'western culture'? You mean how an entire race of people were decimated from a continent, initiating 2 world wars, imperialization of the known world, and to top it off, responsible for dropping two atom bombs on a society? Those are just highlights. Oh but God no, Muslims cannot be integrated. So short sighted.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

This is so asinine it hurts my brain. What's up with 'western culture'? You mean how an entire race of people were decimated from a continent, initiating 2 world wars, imperialization of the known world, and to top it off, responsible for dropping two atom bombs on a society? Those are just highlights. Oh but God no, Muslims cannot be integrated. So short sighted.

lmao you understood zero of what i just said

 

[Spheyr]

Don't act like you care about LGBTQ rights.

I don't "act" anything. It's one of the few things I agree with Palestine on. But the question was " All the Abrahamic religions declare homosexuality abominable, so why is Palestine being singled out here?" and the OP is talking about the recent Pride event in Israel, hence highlighting their neighbor and foil Palestine's differing views.

 

[Sàmban]

Go try to hold a Pride event there and you'll see why.

I know right? Like that one time fundamentalist Christians were pushing for prison sentences and other draconian measures against lgbtqs in west Africa.

 

[highrider]

the thing about christianity is that it can be interpreted in many different ways thats one of the reason why it melded into western culture fairly easily. islam cant be and i hate to use this saynig but 'it is what it is'. its very rigid in its teachings

Can’t say I agree. The Old Testament isn’t really written that way, it’s paints a picture of a vengeful, petty, and egomaniacal god. You could easily argue that I think. What is more in tune with modern times is the actual teachings and philosophy of Jesus himself.

 

[Spheyr]

I know right? Like that one time fundamentalist Christians were pushing for prison sentences and other draconian measures against lgbtqs in west Africa.

At least they weren't just throwing gays off buildings...

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I have no problem criticizing fundamentalist Islam or Christianity. The left has always conflated that with racism and it’s a stupid response, but there are also people on the right who genuinely do have a problem with the religion in its entirety, so it’s a self perpetuating cycle of outrage and dumb hot takes. Like any religion, if you take the teachings at face value they are pretty IIII up, so I’m hoping they really liked bizarre metaphors in ancient times.

I have never heard of anyone "on the right" who has a problem with religion. Religion is analogous to tradition, which is analogous to conservatism. They are fundamentally tied, especially in America, where the Southern Strategy was deployed in the Deep South/Bible Belt states; that is where your racism comes from.

the thing about christianity is that it can be interpreted in many different ways thats one of the reason why it melded into western culture fairly easily. islam cant be and i hate to use this saynig but 'it is what it is'. its very rigid in its teachings

This statement is one of the most ignorant comments I've seen on Neo-NeoGAF. As Christianity has denominations, so, too does Islam have sects.

 

[Spheyr]

But remember that butt sects are verboten.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Can’t say I agree. The Old Testament isn’t really written that way, it’s paints a picture of a vengeful, petty, and egomaniacal god. You could easily argue that I think. What is more in tune with modern times is the actual teachings and philosophy of Jesus himself.

Judaism and christianity both have rules that musnt be broken and yet people do it and many have interpreted into their own way to fit their lifestyle and with western society as a whole. people will often overlook certain text. there is nothing to agree on this is just how it is. islam on the other hand is very strict in its teachings and there isnt room in it for people to try and change it to fit whatever they would like. that would make you a 'bad muslim' if you only followed the teachings that are convenient to you. and i think its commendable in a certain way. im not criticising any religion like some would like to think here

IThis statement is one of the most ignorant comments I've seen on Neo-NeoGAF. As Christianity has denominations, so, too does Islam have sects.

lmao nah. dont get mad at me because you dont understand religion

 

[Cato]

Don't act like you care about LGBTQ rights.


And the easiest response to the rest of this thread: just wait another 30 years. This has nothing to do with religion. It's about social progression. America just only recently started accepting gays in the last 40 years. Don't turn around and act all high and mighty as if America + Christianity had been accepting of differing sexualities throughout history. This is like gloating about being in 1st place.

Don't criticize them, just wait 30 years and they will be more progressive and problem solved.
You know that standard can be used on evangelical bakers that refuse wedding cake too.

Double standards?

 

[jdforge]

I got my haircut by a barber today and he’s Islamic. He told be he was struggling to find friends since moving to my city. During our conversation he said that at the last barbers he worked at there was a gay who wanted to be his friend. He said that he couldn’t be friends with a gay.

That’s the first time I’ve expreienced Islamic homophobia. It will also be the last time that person gets my money to cut my hair.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

lmao nah. dont get mad at me because you dont understand religion

I don't get mad at trolls, especially the kind that haven't been here for a month.

 

[CaliggyJack]

Don't act like you care about LGBTQ rights.


And the easiest response to the rest of this thread: just wait another 30 years. This has nothing to do with religion. It's about social progression. America just only recently started accepting gays in the last 40 years. Don't turn around and act all high and mighty as if America + Christianity had been accepting of differing sexualities throughout history. This is like gloating about being in 1st place.

No shite because nobody enjoys being in 2nd place.

 

[RokkanStoned]

From what I understand, the Israeli acceptance can vary, since you have orthodox jews as well from some of what I can remember reading. From my understanding being gay is hazardous in most muslim countries, with a few exceptions where you do have some protection, like Turkey and Bosnia from what I remember. Would love if someone could enlighten us on this, I imagine there might be some nuance here I'm missing.
That said, targeting Palestine specifically seems weird, unless it's some attempt at argumentation in regards to Palestine vs Israel, in which it doesn't necessarily refute people's concern with Israel's treatment of palestinians. That said, Israel have a tremendously long history to back-up most of their concerns and raison d'état behind their policies. It's a really tough situation and in regards to people not directly involved with the conflict, I feel like there's a political zealousness to the situation that manifests in both the left and the right.

I wonder how more progressive parts of islam (that's of at least some relevant size) deal with the issue of homosexuality and the path they might show us to how islamic nations and communities at least can soften their approach to gay people.

 

[highrider]

Judaism and christianity both have rules that musnt be broken and yet people do it and many have interpreted into their own way to fit their lifestyle and with western society as a whole. people will often overlook certain text. there is nothing to agree on this is just how it is. islam on the other hand is very strict in its teachings and there isnt room in it for people to try and change it to fit whatever they would like. that would make you a 'bad muslim' if you only followed the teachings that are convenient to you. and i think its commendable in a certain way.

Muslims do the same thing, there’s always a more pure version of a follower. Seeing the broad tapestry of Muslims and its many sects I would think that to be self evident.

 

[Baskin Robbins]

You can simultaneously think Palestinia's stance on gay rights is a disgrace and think Israel's human rights violations are a disgrace as well.
I find it amusing every other thread here ends with a sentence whining about (((the left))). For the love of god start some conversations without throwing shit at the other side.

I agree. The left/right shit should be LEFT OUT of these discussions as it draws a divisive line when you leave it in your posts.
It comes off as bait, even if it's not meant to be.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

I am very confused as to why Palestine is the impetus for this thread.

All the Abrahamic religions declare homosexuality abominable, so why is Palestine being singled out here?

Are you serious? If a Christian denies you a cake or entrance into some post-life existance they have no control over, you just go to another cake shop or tell them to fuck right off. You go to an Islam country and lock lips with a dude as a dude... you will see the difference.

Sin can be punished in Islam like a crime. Sin is used as the boogie man in other Abrahamic religions. Christians during the middle ages, if you can really call them that, are another story but we don't live in that part of history.

 

[Composer]

Don't criticize them, just wait 30 years and they will be more progressive and problem solved.
You know that standard can be used on evangelical bakers that refuse wedding cake too.

Double standards?

Criticism is valid and warranted. But, some of this wasn't criticism. The comments (here and elsewhere) were saying something is intrinsically wrong with Islam. However, what is true is that Islamic society needs to improve. Muslims aren't evil. They need to socio-politically progress. And the truth is it isn't the religions' problem. It's a social issue that needs to be improved. They need to go thru the same process America went thru.

 

[Ke0]

the thing about christianity is that it can be interpreted in many different ways thats one of the reason why it melded into western culture fairly easily. islam cant be and i hate to use this saynig but 'it is what it is'. its very rigid in its teachings

More like the reason Christianity works in Western civilisations is because they aren't theocracies and the separation of church and state, and religious laws have to bow to federal laws. The same thing can work for Islam, point in case is Iran pre revolution. A democracy in which federal rule was the law of the land not religious law. But sadly a certain country didn't like the democratically elected leader so...

 

[CaliggyJack]

That said, Israel have a tremendously long history to back-up most of their concerns and raison d'état behind their policies.

I Don't like Israel's treatment of Palestinians either, but the alternative is fucked.

 

[infinitys_7th]

I guess Bill Maher was right - there are no gay bars in Gaza.

From what I understand, the Israeli acceptance can vary, since you have orthodox jews as well from some of what I can remember reading. From my understanding being gay is hazardous in most muslim countries, with a few exceptions where you do have some protection, like Turkey and Bosnia from what I remember. Would love if someone could enlighten us on this, I imagine there might be some nuance here I'm missing.
That said, targeting Palestine specifically seems weird, unless it's some attempt at argumentation in regards to Palestine vs Israel, in which it doesn't necessarily refute people's concern with Israel's treatment of palestinians. That said, Israel have a tremendously long history to back-up most of their concerns and raison d'état behind their policies. It's a really tough situation and in regards to people not directly involved with the conflict, I feel like there's a political zealousness to the situation that manifests in both the left and the right.

I wonder how more progressive parts of islam (that's of at least some relevant size) deal with the issue of homosexuality and the path they might show us to how islamic nations and communities at least can soften their approach to gay people.

I heard (from the discussion around the YouTube shooter) that Iran "accepts" homosexuality, on the condition that homosexuals forcibly transition to the opposite gender when caught.

This has led to a lot of transwomen (actually just homosexual men who transition to avoid punishment) in Iranian society, including their women's sports teams. A few years ago their soccer team was reprimanded for having 8 MTF players who had not actually started transitioning while they were playing.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

More like the reason Christianity works in Western civilisations is because they aren't theocracies and the separation of church and state, and religious laws have to bow to federal laws. The same thing can work for Islam, point in case is Iran pre revolution. A democracy in which federal rule was the law of the land not religious law. But sadly a certain country didn't like the democratically elected leader so...

Not really necessary and reads bitter. Mosaddegh started secularism but the Shah dialed it to 11 for a quarter century after the coup. Both didn't come to grips with their realities with the Western power block. Mossaddegh didn't acquiesce enough and in fact provoked the western hornets nest while the Shah was so glamored by the west that he didn't see the type of tempest that was brewing in his teapot with the clergy. There is also nothing to suggest Mossaddegh playing better ball with the British yet keeping Iran Islamic enough to keep the revolution at bay while it transmogrified into a more West-Christian like subservience would ever have transpired.

The fact is that 26 or so years is considered too much too soon for bringing a secularized Islamic society into something that resembles the west. And then we wonder why Europe is having issues with immigrants and refugees. Culture shock doesn't begin to cover it.

 

[Bryank75]

Criticism is valid and warranted. But, some of this wasn't criticism. The comments (here and elsewhere) were saying something is intrinsically wrong with Islam. However, what is true is that Islamic society needs to improve. Muslims aren't evil. They need to socio-politically progress. And the truth is it isn't the religions' problem. It's a social issue that needs to be improved. They need to go thru the same process America went thru.

Ah I see what you are saying, we just need to allow them suicide bomb little girls at concerts, run down families in the streets of France and kill any cartoonist that draws their prophet... for another 30 years till they walk in after another mass murder and suddenly realize 'oh, I see now I need to advance socio-politically'

Unfortunately Islam is fundamentally different as it has Sharia law, its own law which they believe is above and before western law. The day that they have enough people to elect their own party to power is the end of gay rights, the end of female freedom and the end of atheism and religious freedom.

 

[Composer]

Ah I see what you are saying, we just need to allow them suicide bomb little girls at concerts, run down families in the streets of France and kill any cartoonist that draws their prophet... for another 30 years till they walk in after another mass murder and suddenly realize 'oh, I see now I need to advance socio-politically'

Unfortunately Islam is fundamentally different as it has Sharia law, its own law which they believe is above and before western law. The day that they have enough people to elect their own party to power is the end of gay rights, the end of female freedom and the end of atheism and religious freedom.

Yeah that's really what I'm saying. /s

Of course not. Don't be purposely thick. Also why is it Islam's fault when a maniac has a rampage but all other religions are off the hook when someone from their sect does something under their fealty to God (Manifest Destiny, nearly all wars, etc etc). You seriously think nearly 2 billion people operate as such? My own Muslim family has even touched a fly their whole life.

Also to note, you sound like every other immigrant hater that has ever lived and will ever live. You're are biased and frankly, judge based on race, making you a racist.

 

[llien]

Interesting contrast here. No article to link but Israel just had its pride festival with something like 250 000 people attending (the country only has 8 million people, that is like 9 Million Americans). While Palestinians cant even accept a candid camera gay joke.

How does this justify what Israel is doing to Palestinians?
"Oh, they are barbarians, so it should be ok to consider Palestine to be part of Israel and 'colonize' West Bank with settlements", hm?

 

[llien]

Judaism and christianity both have rules that musnt be broken and yet people do it and many have interpreted into their own way to fit their lifestyle and with western society as a whole. people will often overlook certain text. there is nothing to agree on this is just how it is. islam on the other hand is very strict in its teachings and there isnt room in it for people to try and change it to fit whatever they would like. that would make you a 'bad muslim' if you only followed the teachings that are convenient to you. and i think its commendable in a certain way. im not criticising any religion like some would like to think here

You are talking about it as if Christians didn't have a solid spot #1 for "number of infidels/witches/witchers killed".

 

[Dunki]

Yeah that's really what I'm saying. /s

Of course not. Don't be purposely thick. Also why is it Islam's fault when a maniac has a rampage but all other religions are off the hook when someone from their sect does something under their fealty to God (Manifest Destiny, nearly all wars, etc etc). You seriously think nearly 2 billion people operate as such? My own Muslim family has even touched a fly their whole life.

Also to note, you sound like every other immigrant hater that has ever lived and will ever live. You're are biased and frankly, judge based on race, making you a racist.

The problem here is that the radical Islam is taking over your religion. We have more and more mosques here in Germany that are teaching radical believes. To remove this stigma that the Islam currently have we have to extinguish the radical Islam. Otherwise people will always be scared of your religion.

just wish Muslim in Europe would be as moderate as in the US but that sadly is not the case here. Most I would judge as radical also because the mosques here get only financed and controlled by countries like Turkey and Saudi Arabia

You are talking about it as if Christians didn't have a solid spot #1 for "number of infidels/witches/witchers killed".

The Islam did the same shit they eradicated whole cities in the name of Mohammed. But the biggest difference to me is that Christianity has drastically changed the Islam is still on a ideology we had in the middle ages. Also we need to get rid of the thought that the Islam is an oppressed Religion. It never was and never will be.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Not really necessary and reads bitter. Mosaddegh started secularism but the Shah dialed it to 11 for a quarter century after the coup. Both didn't come to grips with their realities with the Western power block. Mossaddegh didn't acquiesce enough and in fact provoked the western hornets nest while the Shah was so glamored by the west that he didn't see the type of tempest that was brewing in his teapot with the clergy. There is also nothing to suggest Mossaddegh playing better ball with the British yet keeping Iran Islamic enough to keep the revolution at bay while it transmogrified into a more West-Christian like subservience would ever have transpired.

Calling Mossadegh democratically elected is really a stretch. Imagine if Donald Trump in 2020 decides not to count the votes in California and the Eastern Seaboard, just the states where he wins. Because that's how the only election he stood in went. His appointment as PM came in a time where a previous PM was murdered and Mossadegh later gave the assassin a medal.

Oh and having a referendum with separate voting stations for Yes and No in a time where saying No (to giving Mossadegh absolute power) could get you murdered.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

You are talking about it as if Christians didn't have a solid spot #1 for "number of infidels/witches/witchers killed".

like i said many times in this thread i never said one religion is better than the other or one has done worse to people. ive never mentioned or even alluded as such. i laid out some facts and then you really see where peoples heads are at.

 

[llien]

Notable read: King David Hotel bombing (a terrorist attack; you will be surprised to learn who carried it out)

like i said many times in this thread i never said one religion is better than the other

You talked about people following religion, not the religions themselves and you did imply Islam followers are worse, which I'd agree with with correction of "mostly".

But I know many Turks who are formally Muslim, but don't really care about the rules, even those, which are not that hard to follow (like not eating pork).

 

[5secondrulesucks]

worse? when? dont try and put words in my mouth because you dont understand what im saying. i never said worse or even implied it. i said islam itself is strict and that there is little room for interpretation for it. thats not talking about people or how they follow it. im strictly talking about the religion itself and also how other religions have melded into western culture. thats it. i really dont know how some of you function.

 

[MisterFalcon]

You are talking about it as if Christians didn't have a solid spot #1 for "number of infidels/witches/witchers killed".

If only we lived in a world where the inquisition was the most murderous institution that ever existed.

Statistics[edit]
Beginning in the 19th century, historians have gradually compiled statistics drawn from the surviving court records, from which estimates have been calculated by adjusting the recorded number of convictions by the average rate of document loss for each time period. Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras studied the records of the Spanish Inquisition, which list 44,674 cases of which 826 resulted in executions in person and 778 in effigy (i.e. a straw dummy was burned in place of the person).[51] William Monter estimated there were 1000 executions between 1530–1630 and 250 between 1630–1730.[52] Jean-Pierre Dedieu studied the records of Toledo's tribunal, which put 12,000 people on trial.[53] For the period prior to 1530, Henry Kamen estimated there were about 2,000 executions in all of Spain's tribunals.[54] Italian Renaissance history professor and Inquisition expert Carlo Ginzburg had his doubts about using statistics to reach a judgment about the period. "In many cases, we don’t have the evidence, the evidence has been lost," said Ginzburg.[55]

Between 1250 and 2000 executions in 200 years. There have been weeks this decade in which islamic terrorists killed more for being infidels.

 

[Rendle]

They're a people being actively oppressed and you're wondering why their culture isn't progressing at a steady pace? Fucking lol.

It's hard to put questions into the public consciousness when your people are fighting for their lives

 

[womfalcs3]

I am very confused as to why Palestine is the impetus for this thread.

All the Abrahamic religions declare homosexuality abominable, so why is Palestine being singled out here?

Because the OP has an agenda against Palestine. Disgraceful. The Old Testament says that gays should be killed...

 

[llien]

Between 1250 and 2000 executions in 200 years. There have been weeks this decade in which islamic terrorists killed more for being infidels.

Spanish inquisition was not the only Inquisition Christians had. Portuguese and Roman were acting on their own. However, given that I. process was akin to a trial, it was quite time consuming and rather hard to kill too many this way.

That's why, we, Christians, had ways of killing bad people that were much more effective. On the St. Bartholomew's Day the "right" kind of Christians massacred between 2000 (Catholic estimate) and 70'000 (Huguenots estimate) not so right Christians. On Friday the 13, I was told, we dealt with the evil "head worshipers", the Templars, who also happened to have money, that Philip IV was short of.

Then we had that lovely Crusades campaign, to deal with infidels, with god knows how many killed.

Anyhow, what are the Christian casualties associated with Islamic groups?

 

[Sienna Fuegonasus]

Religion can be kinda radical. This is not surprising at all.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

arguments are always weak when you bring up shit that happened like 400 years ago

 

[Spheyr]

I got my haircut by a barber today and he’s Islamic. He told be he was struggling to find friends since moving to my city. During our conversation he said that at the last barbers he worked at there was a gay who wanted to be his friend. He said that he couldn’t be friends with a gay.

That’s the first time I’ve expreienced Islamic homophobia. It will also be the last time that person gets my money to cut my hair.

Why, did he do a bad job?

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

 

[jdforge]

Why, did he do a bad job?

No he actually did a great job. But I feel uncomfortable giving my money to someone who I know is openly homophobic. Got a problem with that?

 

[Spheyr]

No he actually did a great job. But I feel uncomfortable giving my money to someone who I know is openly homophobic. Got a problem with that?

So he did a great job and his reward is a "Fuck you for not being ideologically pure"