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Paradox Interactive: "The 70/30 revenue split is outrageous"

GenericUser

Member
I didn't even know that there is a 70/30 split on steam, but as I soon as I heard that I was like "that can't be right, the creators of the game deserve a bigger cut". Maybe 70/30 was ok when steam launched back in the 00's but nowadays it's pretty ridiculous if you ask me. I'm not a modern PC gamer though, so I don't know the downsides of the epic store that everybody seems to despise.
 

Kadayi

Banned
edit: I mean it's whatever, I'll still buy Outer Worlds for sure and Borderlands 3 probably, but I find myself much less inclined to take a chance on an indie title on EGS then I would on steam.

Outer Worlds will be on Game Pass the same time as EGS. I'm just going to play it on that. Main game is playable in 30 hours apparently, so easily done in a month. Will pick up later on Steam if it's worth replaying later on.
 
If Epic can offer the same level of services as Steam and still hold to their 88/12 cut then I'll start asking why Steam takes a bigger cut. As it stands Steam offers an order of magnitude more services to both publishers and end users that EGS does. The 70/30 cut becomes 75/25 then 80/20 with higher sales as well. Steam continues to support older titles well after release. I have doubts that Epic will still support anything once it's left the spotlight. They don't even have a complete store up and running yet.

EGS money-hatted away some exclusives. That is the full extent of their developer support system, no wonder the cut is 88/12. In return for writing the developer/publisher a big check, the developers/publishers pull their titles off Steam. In doing so the developers/publishers that are crying foul over the 70/30 have effectively split their customer base and made their cut from Steam sales 0%. I don't know about you but if I'm already moaning about getting a 70% cut my next move isn't typically taking steps to reduce that number to 0%. Giving people a choice of abandoning Steam or waiting a year for a game means that they are shooting themselves in the foot. They'll get their 88/12 from EGS but have fewer sales total which I suppose the hat full of Fortnite money pays for. Shady as fuck.

If EGS was offering just the 88/12 split without the scummy "pull your shit off Steam" stipulation I wouldn't have an issue with it. Epic plays a dirty game though. Let developers/publishers sell the game in both stores and see how the sales work out between them. Personally I hate all the launchers. I run as few programs on my PC as I can without it becoming a brick, so having some launcher running in the background like Steam, Origin, Uplay or EGS so they can get their DRM shit running bugs me. Of them all I tolerate Steam the most. I can play ancient PC titles with little to no issue through Steam thanks to continued support and community forums that solve any problems I might run into. For the 12% cut they're paying, EGS is providing them with just about nothing. You can buy the Epic car for $1200 with no wheels brakes or engine, or you can buy the Steam car for $3000 with all the options.
 

Hudo

Member
This would sound better coming from any developer other than paradox. I love there games especially eu4 but hundreds of dollars of DLC is a bit much.
Taking the words right out of my mouth. Yeah, not saying that Paradox are wrong but they are hardly the most suitable to talk about this. Their DLC policies are actually what makes me stay away from Paradox games.
 
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I feel like this point is huge, Valve offer infinite keys to the dev to resell for free, problem is the devs don't have a popular storefront of their own. I do hope epic grows because steam desperately needs competition, but at least steam isn't shareholder lead so it can take the long view.

How long can epic really afford it's current course? Is it a false gambit?
 
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Blancka

Member
Taking the words right out of my mouth. Yeah, not saying that Paradox are wrong but they are hardly the most suitable to talk about this. Their DLC policies are actually what makes me stay away from Paradox games.

I wish people would stop taking sides based on "Who" says something and actually recognise when a good point is made. Doesn't matter who it comes from in the end. You don't have to like someone to agree with what they say
 

Blancka

Member
Cost of development has gone up.
Cost of distribution has gone down.

Yet it is still 70-30.
Also, why are we only charged 60$. (See inflation)

Because games sell more than ever now and are more profitable than ever due to economies of scale. For examples sake, SWBF2 was probably the most controversial launch of all gaming, with calls for boycotts all round, yet only 3 PS1 games sold more than Battlefront 2. Commercial "failures" are selling better than top 5 games of an entire consoles lifecycle. Distribution costs are also miniscule nowadays, and it's no longer a case of "sell as many copies as possible in the first 2 weeks before the pre-owned market boots you out". Digital sales means games bring in revenue long after launch. Of the top 10 most played games currently on steam, only Dota underlords was even released this year. On top of this, DLC and MTX can be outrageously priced at times (Looking at you Square Enix with your $15 per character costume DLC).

Games are more profitable to make than ever. There's a reason most AAA devs stocks have completely dwarfed what they were worth a decade ago. They aren't keeping games cheap out of benevolence, and in the EU at least, games are getting more expensive in some cases. New switch games are €60 to €70, and while retailers tend to stick to €50-55 for ps4 games, they're often €69.99 for the base version when bought digitally.
 

Hudo

Member
I wish people would stop taking sides based on "Who" says something and actually recognise when a good point is made. Doesn't matter who it comes from in the end. You don't have to like someone to agree with what they say
But I do agree with Paradox? It's just that I also have a criticism towards Paradox' policies that kinda go in the same direction. Doesn't make their point invalid (which is why I think Paradox are right), just as it doesn't make the criticism invalid.
 

Kadayi

Banned
I think there is an argument that Valve probably should revisit their revenue policy, but at the same time I just don't think given the nature of the more robust and far-reaching service they offer versus the barebones nature of EGS, that it's remotely viable to take it down to 12% and maintain the service that they do. I'd look at the existing policy of 30/25/20 and revamp that to 25/20/15 with the same financial targets as before (maybe a bit less on the last target). That way your Indies are paying a quarter instead of a third (possibly even a 5th if they sell well) and your AAA games are generally only paying 15%.
 
So having a digital platform doesn't cost anything?

Sorry but that's bullshit. I can understand a comment like that coming from a Gaf user but someone that should know how much infrastructure costs, cash cards regionalized pricing, etc...

This guy is sucking Tim's cock. "Quote me on that".
It's not that it's worth nothing, it's the fact that it's not as valuable.
 

A.Romero

Member
It's not that it's worth nothing, it's the fact that it's not as valuable.

We shall see. Customers will go to the best platform and so far I don't think EGS is really making a dent on Steam's share.

Personally, this kind of statements and the many things Tim has said have pushed me away.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
Cost of development has gone up.
Cost of distribution has gone down.

Yet it is still 70-30.
Also, why are we only charged 60$. (See inflation)

Yep. I like my deals as much as anyone. But sky-rocketing game costs are why we aren't seeing things like epic, 60+ hour games with Naughty Dog level production values (graphics, music, quality acting and writing etc.). And why when stuff that comes close like Cyberpunk it really strains the finances of the publisher. I'd gladly play $100 plus for such a game, but I know it's not feasible with this fickle, price sensitive market. Hell, just look at the blow back in that thread here the other day about the Final Fantasy Remake being split into parts despite each part supposedly being as long as a typical numbered Final Fantasy game.

Gamers have gotten spoiled with prices stuck at $60 for ages and even more so by all the huge sales and rapid discounts and most games being $20-30 with in a few months of launch. So raising price would be a death keel. So we'll instead see more and more focus on MP games that can be monetized which just aren't my bag. I'm hoping Gamepass and other services help out some as they'll need steady new content to keep people subscribing and it's a great, budget friendly way to play shorter single player games that may up revenue if they get more people subscribing than we're buying said games for $60 a pop.
 

Ornlu

Banned
Taking the words right out of my mouth. Yeah, not saying that Paradox are wrong but they are hardly the most suitable to talk about this. Their DLC policies are actually what makes me stay away from Paradox games.

Same here; I'd be shocked if anyone outside of their hardcore Paradox fanboys actually buy (for example) EU4 with all the DLC's for $300, or CK2 with all the DLC's for $400. And half of those DLC's are non-cosmetic. Instead of making new games, or charging upfront what they actually need/want to keep running, they milk their fanbase dry with drip-fed DLC's. Eventually I think they are going to burn out their fans. I know I haven't bought anything from them since base-game CK2.
 

zeorhymer

Member
Z4BRSWs.jpg
 

sol_bad

Member
Paradox already have their own digital store. Why don't they put more money in to advertising it and improving it's features if Steam costs no money to run and update.
 

A.Romero

Member
I know I sound like a Valve shill or Steam's Defense Force but I really don't think they are abusing.

Could they go lower than 30% and still make a profit? Probably yes. However, despite I love devs a lot, I think I should care more about what do I get as a consumer.

If Steam continues the best platform (and it is, feature wise and specially in countries outside the US) I can't be too concerned if it's a fair deal for devs. Many have tried to put up their stores and most of them have failed.

EGS does not bring anything new to the table except for childish rants by Tim. Give me the best prices or the best feature set, not a lecture about fairness in split shares (specially when it's just a bunch of lies spilled just to put down your competitor).

By the way, I would jump off Steam at any point if there was an objectively better offer. I have licenses in several platforms. I have bought games from Square! (lol)
 
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sn0man

Member
Something I didn’t see mentioned is that Valve appears to be building their platform out to Linux. Something I appreciate in a post windows 7 world. With every passing month Linux gaming is becoming more and more viable. Epic hasn’t commented on that yet.
 

Hudo

Member
Same here; I'd be shocked if anyone outside of their hardcore Paradox fanboys actually buy (for example) EU4 with all the DLC's for $300, or CK2 with all the DLC's for $400. And half of those DLC's are non-cosmetic. Instead of making new games, or charging upfront what they actually need/want to keep running, they milk their fanbase dry with drip-fed DLC's. Eventually I think they are going to burn out their fans. I know I haven't bought anything from them since base-game CK2.
Yeah. I really wanted to get into Stellaris, as I crave a grand-scale space 4X game in the vein of Master of Orion et al. But I ultimately decided to not buy it because reviews suggested that there are some systems and areas of the game that feel "intentionally flat", so that Paradox can later fill that in with DLC. CK2 was also the last Paradox game that I bought and at some point I just stopped buying the DLCs and playing the game altogether... (still a good game, though.)

It's sad because they make good games. It's just that their business model annoys the hell out of me, lol. But maybe I am not in their set of target customers?

But in any case, they are still right with their criticism towards Valve. Especially since I think that Valve don't curate and support their platform as they should with that amount of money they take.
 
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So having a digital platform doesn't cost anything?

Sorry but that's bullshit. I can understand a comment like that coming from a Gaf user but someone that should know how much infrastructure costs, cash cards regionalized pricing, etc...

This guy is sucking Tim's cock. "Quote me on that".
Of course it costs something. But it is significantly lower than the mass production / transit of physical media in general. Any half successful digital business only needs to put a small percentage of their earnings back into actual server upkeep.

I've said it for years now, but the greatest con ever was convincing people that the movement of data from one PC to another is an expensive process. It isn't. Business want you to believe that maintaining server is so expensive progress that requires you an astronomical investment of funds to keep up, but it is. It's very cheap, and it scales with the activitiy of your users. Any digital storefront that ever went out of business never did so because of their server costs, I assure you.

Source: I am a server administrator.

I would say that 88/12 would probably be unsustainable for many companies to make a profit and continue to pay upkeep, but 80/20 at the very least would be a more reasonable split.
 
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Devs should get more of the split but come on. As if Epic is giving 88% out of the goodness of their hearts, they would make it 70% as soon as they have market dominance. No question whatsoever.
 

thief183

Member
IN my business if I propose somone to sell his staff to my shop for 30% of the revenue I'd be loughted off.... more like 10-90 is way more resonable.
 

Acidizer

Banned
Pay to box it and have it distributed to shelves across the world then.

Or sell it on your own site, see how that goes.

"outrageous" is a little OTT.
 
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RedVIper

Banned
I don't get these developers, if you think Steam is taking too much money you are welcome to distribute the game yourselves, you're on PC, you don't need to publish it on steam.
 

yurinka

Member
I can understand it for retail console games specially in the past because there are a lot of costs included, but for digital stores and specially PC ones I think a 30% is abusive. 20% for all PC, console and mobile stores would make more sense.

Pay to box it and have it distributed to shelves across the world then.
The percentage that the developer gets for a retail game is even smaller since there they have to pay extra costs like a more expensive age rating, disk/box/etc costs, distribution, etc.

Nah, PC is an open Platform. Consoles are not. You can just release the games on your own and put them on the console.
I don't get these developers, if you think Steam is taking too much money you are welcome to distribute the game yourselves, you're on PC, you don't need to publish it on steam.
PC is not an open platform because unless you're a giant like Activision Blizzard, EA or Ubisoft games outside Steam or Epic don't sell. Outside these giant companies Steam has a de facto monopoly on PC with over 90% of the remaining revenue that seems is starting to be shared with Epic.

And even if you can release outside Steam, see all that people complaining about Epic exclusives. Unless they are free game jam tiny games, players expect to see their PC games on Steam.
 
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llien

Member
Sony/MS spend billions to develop consoles, support infrastructure (used to be network services that were free, but alas).

On the other hand, what Valve/Steam, which is basically online shop with downloads, is doing is totally fine.
Right?
 
The 70/30 split is outrageous? Seeing as how Paradox Interactive is a publisher not a developer (Paradox Development Studio is the dev studio) I'm sure they'd know all about taking an outrageous split and vacuuming up money away from the creators in return for next to nothing.
 

silentstorm

Member
What Paradox is choosing to forget is that it takes money just to keep servers and the store on, and that Valve has more features to keep track of, or that Valve allows people to sell Steam Keys in other sites and they don't get as much money from those.

Hell, even just making it so you can use payment options requires money to keep active, and Steam has more payment options than EGS, hell, Steam has the Steam Wallet Cards that are mostly used in Asia or countries where Credit Cards aren't used as often, and let's face it, stores wouldn't sell those cards if all the money went to Valve.

Look, i don't know how much Valve could lower the cut or not, but it's not as if Valve is keeping the cut for no reason, at the current size of Steam, all the features(like the forums for every single game and user reviews for all games) they have and even payment options means they do need more money just to keep the store going.
 

Catphish

Member
If there's a developer that knows a thing or two about outrageous, it's fucking Paradox.

I'm not dismissing their point, but the developer with one of the most ridiculous DLC behaviors in the industry isn't going to generate much sympathy from me.
 
Imagine if that extra 16% cut would be the main reason why Half Life 3, Portal 3, Left for dead 3, and Team Fortress 3 get developed in the future :)
I just had a beautiful dream because of this post. Valve was releasing HL3, Portal 3, L4D3 and TF3 as a package like The Orange Box. Only it was called The Brown Box because everyone of us would be shitting ourselves at the sight of such miracle.
 

RedVIper

Banned
PC is not an open platform because unless you're a giant like Activision Blizzard, EA or Ubisoft games outside Steam or Epic don't sell. Outside these giant companies Steam has a de facto monopoly on PC with over 90% of the remaining revenue that seems is starting to be shared with Epic.

And even if you can release outside Steam, see all that people complaining about Epic exclusives. Unless they are free game jam tiny games, players expect to see their PC games on Steam.

This is bullshit. People are complaining about Epic exclusives because of their shitty business practices, their involvement with tencent and their shitty store.

Yeah most people don't love Origin, or Uplay, or wtv other launchers are out there, but it's mostly because they're an annoyance that you have to install to play 1 game that you own.

GoG on the other hand gets lots of support, I rarely see that store getting hate.
 

BONKERS

Member
30% is not outrageous when they charge the same prices as consoles 90% of the time with oodles of DLC. (Meaning even with the 30% they already get a bigger cut as is) Is it a bit high? yes. Maybe valve could lower it to 20-25%.

But you are delusional if you don't think it doesn't cost money to keep a service running that supports 50+ Million people and then also pay all of your employees, keep developing that platform to add and improve features, continue improving linux support, support regions that EGS doesn't care about (and absorbing the cost of doing business in those areas. As mentioned all the pre-paid cards). They allow you to generate keys and sell them wherever you feel like it for a 0% cut. Those of us who have bought a ton of games outside of steam over the years % wise have already give devs a better deal.

I'm sure I can think of more. But where is the outrage on other platforms? They make an even smaller cut on consoles physically (I'm sorry what work does rando retailer #5 do for you other than the equivalent of just putting your game on the shelf same as a digital distrubter that deserves an even bigger cut than 30%?), digital who knows, users have to pay just to be able to play online in an often shitty environment, worse than on PC where the service is provided free to the user.(But just running random shit like this costs nothing right?/sarcasm Sony provides this service and guess what it costs money to do so! Shocker) Certification alone seems to be a black hole of ire by many developers and causes indirect cost. And once upon a time didn't certification and cert for patches cost thousands of dollars? (Meanwhile AFIK always been free to release patches as you please on Steam and no cost to send Valve your game to make sure it isn't a broken POS. This comes with it's own problems however)Like upwards of 40,000$? Patches seemed to have come back to the realm of reason for devs but last I heard Certification will cost you if you fail twice.

They already make a bigger cut than on consoles, it costs less money and time to release on Steam or any other PC digital platform comparatively, and yet they want more money and still charge the same exact prices as on consoles?
. For smaller indie devs , this totally makes sense since their scope and user base is already small.

But for huge companies like Paradox, Ubisoft and the like? Often whom already require their own launcher be used or sell directly on their own launcher?
That comes across as hypocritical and reeks of nothing but greed. Maybe if you believe THAT much that Valve is so evil and that you deserve so much more of that money, should be just like ActivisionBlizz, EA and Epic and the like and ONLY sell on your own store? EA seems to have done just fine keeping their own products locked to their own platform despite the constant negative press EA gets.
Put the effort that Epic is doing into driving the growth of your own platform. No wait, you just want all of the rewards of that but without any of the cost. You want the visibility and user numbers and 100% of the profit without paying for it.
 
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Fox Mulder

Member
I could see the justification of Steam getting 30% as their platform is free to use and providing a quality digital platform costs money. Xbox Live and PSN are paid services that also get a 30% cut of games though.
 
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lukilladog

Member
I could see the justification of Steam getting 30% as their platform is free to use and providing a quality digital platform costs money. Xbox Live and PSN are paid services that also get a 30% cut of games though.

Do you need to pay a subscription to get access to the digital stores in consoles?.
 

Ornlu

Banned
Do you need to pay a subscription to get access to the digital stores in consoles?.

Well you are paying by buying the console from the same company that runs the digital store on said console.

Steam doesn't get paid when you buy your PC.
 

lukilladog

Member
Well you are paying by buying the console from the same company that runs the digital store on said console.

Steam doesn't get paid when you buy your PC.

Or maybe you are getting a discount on console hardware subsidized from their digital store revenue. In that case I think they should charge game publishers 40% after 5 million sales, cheap consoles for everyone! :messenger_open_mouth: . I mean, seriously, sony and microsoft are gonna make, or are starting to make, billions that they didn´t make before, part of that should be used to benefit the consumers instead of reducing cuts to the big game publishers, how much more billions per year do they need?. :goog_unamused:

Ps.- I´ll be disappointed if you guys accept higher than $400 next gen consoles.
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
An example of some of what Steam offers from someone more credible than posters here who somehow manage to get ignored/dismissed whenever they drop such facts by the usual epic trolls that never tire of doing that while repeating the "it's just a launcher" type of bs.


screenshot69unjx8.png
screenshot703aklu.png
screenshot71myknj.png

Read the images in reverse or go to his profile and scroll down until you see that poll then read as you scroll back up, I didn't wanna bother linking each tweet individually with the correct timeline and I wasn't sure how else to show most of it. Another unintentional example:
Not that this kind of feature and service hasn't already been mentioned only to go ignored but hey, this is from devs which to some might count more than posters saying the same things here because they're just Steam fanboys or whatever random excuse to ignore reality.
 
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dirthead

Banned
Steam doesn't offer the average indie developer SHIT. All you're going to do is get lost in a sea of LGBTQBBQ+ExAlpha games.

It's hilarious how people still have blinders on about Valve. Valve is basically an ex-Microsoft shop. Microsoft from when they were brutal competition busting dickwads. So enjoy your worship of some ex-Microsoft stooge who wanted an even bigger piece of the pie for himself (literally).

gaben-640x353.jpg
 

Helios

Member
Steam doesn't offer the average indie developer SHIT. All you're going to do is get lost in a sea of LGBTQBBQ+ExAlpha games.

It's hilarious how people still have blinders on about Valve. Valve is basically an ex-Microsoft shop. Microsoft from when they were brutal competition busting dickwads. So enjoy your worship of some ex-Microsoft stooge who wanted an even bigger piece of the pie for himself (literally).

km403FR.jpg
 
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