Hellgardia
Member
It is actually the first MOBA type game i have ever been hyped about. The graphics look superb and i'm liking its gameplay so far. I'm keeping an eye on this one
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Paragon, MOBA from Epic Games (PC/PS4, 2016) [Up: First Gameplay, Crossplatform, F2P]
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
- Start date
OdysseusVA
Banned
Just received an email from EPIC about linking my PSN account for upcoming tests on PS4.
VincentMatts
Member
Me too and done.
serversurfer
Member
Oh? How would one go about getting in on that?
VincentMatts
Member
I think you just create an account on paragon site. Thats what i did.
Evolution of Metal
Member
I have some really bad news about the Paragon's business model (potential, as it is in Alpha)
Disclaimer: Clearly I do not have the full experience or research of this game. It is still in alpha and everything is a subject to change. Epic Games themselves said that they will do an announcement on the business model in the future. I put solid 5 hours into playing the game and some additional time digging through the alpha forum.
Here is an Epic's overview of their card system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP134KryWBg
Long story short, card system is a combination of runes+items speaking in LoL terms. Your character has the capacity of 6 base cards + 18 upgrades. There are many cards in the game, hundreds if not thousands. The deck can be up to 40 cards, you will need some variation during the game because you select the deck before you see enemy heroes. For example, you may want to have some armor penetration or increased resistances as an attack damage carry depending on the enemy heroes. Some of your cards are for the early game only, like a health potion card. All in all, your deck affects your in-game stats which highly impacts the game.
The way you earn cards is troubling: the same way as you earn them in heartstone. You open a booster pack of 5 cards that contain random rarity cards. Mostly commons, you can get an entire booster of useless commons. In alpha, there is no way of getting the cards that you need other than opening countless packs.
For all the people that know popular MOBAs, that is already a red flag: you might play an ability powered character without Magic Penetration card in your deck, you are at a huge disadvantage versus tanks. I haven't explored the game enough to know item requirements for every character, but I can already tell you that starter decks are full of inefficient cards and booster packs contain some highly valuable stats. At the moment, I haven't encountered Rare or above rarity cards. Who knows what kind of unique stats those cards contain.
This does not end here, there are two currencies in the game. "Time Currency" is similar to Influence Points in LoL, it is earned through the regular play and can be boosted with currency boosts. Another is presumably a premium currency which you cannot earn playing the game. The shop is not functional in Paragon, but I would be surprised if heroes weren't sold for Time Currency. You cannot buy additional card packs for the "Time Currency" now, you get them as level-up rewards. It is very likely that players will be able to spend "Time Currency" for booster packs in the future.
I have played many MOBA games: LoL, Dota 2, Smite, Dawngate, Infinite Crisis, Arena of Fate and Heroes of the Storm. Where LoL has some early f2p game artifacts like runes, most other games have moved away from such systems. Of course Dota 2 is the best model with all the heroes available from the start and overall the only paid items are cosmetic. HotS doesn't give you heroes for free, but it doesn't have any stat-altering items either. Even the Infinite Crisis game had a generous hero and rune payout to free players that did not cause significant disadvantages. If Paragon card system remains as it is now, then the game is going to be by far the worst MOBA game for non-paying players.
To sum up, the game offers a significant advantage to players that acquire specific cards (either lucky boosters or investing $). There is no room for the luck-based collectible card mini-game in the PVP MOBA game.
PS I could evidence all of that with screenshots, but I would rather not do that. Instead, I can upload a screenshot of all 13 OT5 heroes just to show them to people that aren't in alpha:
Disclaimer: Clearly I do not have the full experience or research of this game. It is still in alpha and everything is a subject to change. Epic Games themselves said that they will do an announcement on the business model in the future. I put solid 5 hours into playing the game and some additional time digging through the alpha forum.
Here is an Epic's overview of their card system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP134KryWBg
Long story short, card system is a combination of runes+items speaking in LoL terms. Your character has the capacity of 6 base cards + 18 upgrades. There are many cards in the game, hundreds if not thousands. The deck can be up to 40 cards, you will need some variation during the game because you select the deck before you see enemy heroes. For example, you may want to have some armor penetration or increased resistances as an attack damage carry depending on the enemy heroes. Some of your cards are for the early game only, like a health potion card. All in all, your deck affects your in-game stats which highly impacts the game.
The way you earn cards is troubling: the same way as you earn them in heartstone. You open a booster pack of 5 cards that contain random rarity cards. Mostly commons, you can get an entire booster of useless commons. In alpha, there is no way of getting the cards that you need other than opening countless packs.
For all the people that know popular MOBAs, that is already a red flag: you might play an ability powered character without Magic Penetration card in your deck, you are at a huge disadvantage versus tanks. I haven't explored the game enough to know item requirements for every character, but I can already tell you that starter decks are full of inefficient cards and booster packs contain some highly valuable stats. At the moment, I haven't encountered Rare or above rarity cards. Who knows what kind of unique stats those cards contain.
This does not end here, there are two currencies in the game. "Time Currency" is similar to Influence Points in LoL, it is earned through the regular play and can be boosted with currency boosts. Another is presumably a premium currency which you cannot earn playing the game. The shop is not functional in Paragon, but I would be surprised if heroes weren't sold for Time Currency. You cannot buy additional card packs for the "Time Currency" now, you get them as level-up rewards. It is very likely that players will be able to spend "Time Currency" for booster packs in the future.
I have played many MOBA games: LoL, Dota 2, Smite, Dawngate, Infinite Crisis, Arena of Fate and Heroes of the Storm. Where LoL has some early f2p game artifacts like runes, most other games have moved away from such systems. Of course Dota 2 is the best model with all the heroes available from the start and overall the only paid items are cosmetic. HotS doesn't give you heroes for free, but it doesn't have any stat-altering items either. Even the Infinite Crisis game had a generous hero and rune payout to free players that did not cause significant disadvantages. If Paragon card system remains as it is now, then the game is going to be by far the worst MOBA game for non-paying players.
To sum up, the game offers a significant advantage to players that acquire specific cards (either lucky boosters or investing $). There is no room for the luck-based collectible card mini-game in the PVP MOBA game.
PS I could evidence all of that with screenshots, but I would rather not do that. Instead, I can upload a screenshot of all 13 OT5 heroes just to show them to people that aren't in alpha:
Hope the game is good enough to warrant such a F2P model.
You can do that kind of shit if you are first, or if the game is really really good. Reminds me a little bit of Dirty Bomb.
I'd like to see some % differences and what kind of rewards you get from leveling up (just playing). If there are tiered rewards and daily stuff that get you a large % of the way there (alas only one role/spec) it's... still pretty bad.
Need hard numbers though.
You can do that kind of shit if you are first, or if the game is really really good. Reminds me a little bit of Dirty Bomb.
I'd like to see some % differences and what kind of rewards you get from leveling up (just playing). If there are tiered rewards and daily stuff that get you a large % of the way there (alas only one role/spec) it's... still pretty bad.
Need hard numbers though.
OdysseusVA
Banned
Any more info on the PS4 tests? I received the one email about upcoming tests and linking your PSN account but nothing since.
KeyChainDude
Member
Good question, I'm waiting for news about it too
You do realize that we are under a NDA with the alpha and non of this is supposed to be posted or shared outside the alpha forums of this game? Second of all like you said this is an alpha, a little early to think any of this is going to be final when they have plenty of time to adjust things accordingly.
Evolution of Metal
Member
Hard numbers are impossible, the shop is offline. The currency is a floating number so far, no value attached to it. A hero might cost 1000 or it might cost 5000.
There are some daily rewards, account level-up rewards, you also level-up heroes like in HotS. Daily rewards were mostly bonus currency (Like LoL daily win), level-up rewards seem to be a card pack (5 random cards) per level. I don't think that I have got anything from the hero level-up, it is a pretty progammer-ish UI at the moment: gives you buttons and text, some elements are easy to miss because they are in plain text and without any effects.
People on the forums have mentioned the crafting system. It is not present in the game, nor has any strong Epic's word about it. It might be a solution to the problem, it might be the Heartstone crafting which is pretty slow, or it might be flat out useless as a rune combined in LoL. Still, these cards are mainly for major flat stats increases as opposed to small boosts (like League masteries/runes), or giving some extra special effects like Black Ops 3 abilities.
If you loved Smite, this is a pretty similar spin on MOBA. Vertical aspect of the game is probably the biggest difference: high-points of terrain and some abilities can launch character very high. Regular jumps are small, maybe 1/2 character's height.
Oh, my twin brother played the game while I watched over his shoulder. I am under no NDA. Wink wink. But to answer your question seriously, there is no harm discussing this business model. Edit: maybe there aren't too many videos as I thought, but still, there are videos of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOqhLcG0A4M So there is no way that Epic Games are so dragonian about it, if you have thousands of people playing, someone will expose it. They knew that, otherwise they would have never opened the alpha like that.
I just wanted to give you the heads up was all man just in case. Some harm can come from people who skim over your post and assume that this is how the game is going to launch when it's still in alpha and plenty of time for things to be changed.
This is worrying, as I agree that there is no room for luck-based progression in any type of competitive multiplayer game honestly.
First PS4 and cross-play Online Test is this weekend. Very excited to finally play this.
If you are already in on the PC tests, you just need to link your PSN ID to your EPIC account, and you will be able to play on PS4 as well. They are really trying to get meaningful cross-play feedback, so if you have both, consider playing on PS4.
Check your emails for details and possible invites.
Here are the details from the Paragon Subreddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/paragon/comments/44zmoa/online_test_7_coming_this_saturday_first_ps4/
If you are already in on the PC tests, you just need to link your PSN ID to your EPIC account, and you will be able to play on PS4 as well. They are really trying to get meaningful cross-play feedback, so if you have both, consider playing on PS4.
Check your emails for details and possible invites.
Here are the details from the Paragon Subreddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/paragon/comments/44zmoa/online_test_7_coming_this_saturday_first_ps4/
OdysseusVA
Banned
I didn't get invited for the PS4 tests 
Okay guys, I have to say, I was really hyped about this when it was first teased. But the card system they have, what amounts to basically the shop from Dota... does anyone actually find it fun?
Seems too hardcore for me to get into it, quite enjoyed how Heroes of the Storm did away with the shop and items and all that. Can't play LoL or Dota simply because it's too complicated for me. Guess I'm a scrub.
And also I really hate cards. And cards in videogames. Hearthstone is dumb. Warframe has dumb cards. Witcher 3 has a crappy card game in it I never touched. I hate them all.
Seems too hardcore for me to get into it, quite enjoyed how Heroes of the Storm did away with the shop and items and all that. Can't play LoL or Dota simply because it's too complicated for me. Guess I'm a scrub.
And also I really hate cards. And cards in videogames. Hearthstone is dumb. Warframe has dumb cards. Witcher 3 has a crappy card game in it I never touched. I hate them all.
Enordash
Member
For games that seem to be shooting for some sort of eSports scene, the inclusion of deckbuilding (and therefore randomness) seems questionable at best and blatantly microtransaction hungry at worst. Paragon and Paladins are two games that I can think of that seem to be doing this. I haven't personally tried either, but I'm certainly worried about it. Posts in this thread are just reinforcing my concerns.
Don't worry, as someone who works with eSports, this game will never get a big scene. For that to happen it would take a miracle. If Blizzard barely could, what chance does Epic games have?
They have said themselves they're not building it with the competetive scene in mind, it's supposed to be "for fun". If you're going to break out into the big league you have to make it for the competetive players from day one. That's how Dota 2 was made.
Enordash
Member
Although there was never any risk of me breaking into a hyper competitive scene, this deflates my excitement quite a bit. I played Magic for many many years and burnt out hard on the randomness involved there. Modes like ARAM or Assault are one thing. Potentially losing because someone had better luck opening packs or dumped tons of money into buying is a whole different world and really turns me off.
Dictator93
Member
Gwent is quite an amazing sub-game in the game. It is even fantastic to play in real life with other people. Wildly OT though.
--
I wonder when and if I will be granted BETA testing access.
I know it's popular, just don't see the appeal whatsoever personally. To me it's crap.
Evolution of Metal
Member
The game is impossible to spectate aswell. Has a ton of big and dense effects, AOE spells, narrow and high terrain, faily small and fast single-target projectiles. Small travel time, but really hard to notice unlike League auto attacks and projectiles. You cannot have a bird's eye view because the characters would be too small to see. If you scale the world of LoL and Paragon to the same size, Paragon's characters would look like frogs compared to LoL champions. It is impossible to see shit during teamfights too.
I don't think that Dota comparison makes too much sense. The game is almost a carbon copy (in terms of mechanics and rules) of Dota 1, just with Source make-over. It inherited a ton of esports players and therefore had a million dollar tournament before the open beta happened. Most of esports titles haven't started as esports titles, they just got super big and attracted both competitive players and viewers.
serversurfer
Member
I just got an email this afternoon telling me to link my PSN account so I'd be eligible. Did you get/do that?I didn't get invited for the PS4 tests
OdysseusVA
Banned
Yeah, I received that email on the 14th of Jan and linked my PSN account the same day.
Forsaken82
Member
It's crap yet you have never played it...
least you can do is play these "Crap" games before you even go about calling them all crap.
If you've played something like Magic and thought it was crap, thats great and all, but not every card game is the same. I thought Card games like Magic were crap too... and then I played games like hearthstone and even Gwent and have definitely grown an appreciation for them.
I've played Hearthstone for hours. I beat Witcher 3 (avoiding Gwent after trying to enjoy it) sunk many hours into Warframe, and I have alpha Paragon.
So what do you know about what I've played?