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PC (4K) HDR monitors are coming in 2017

SeeNoWeevil

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Jan 11, 2015
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Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
Aug 3, 2012
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Holy shit, when did strobed OLED become a thing? That'll be the ultimate gaming panel, by far. Assuming latency is low. Hopefully it'll appear in TVs soon, 60Hz flicker isn't really doable in a monitor up close to your face.

VR displays have had it since the Rift DK2 - that's what "low persistence OLED" is referring to if you see that term.
https://forums.oculus.com/community...e-101-how-low-persistence-reduces-motion-blur

BlurBusters has some good details there. I was wondering if they might strobe each frame twice or something (clear but double-image), but nope, it's a straight-up 60Hz, so I'd expect CRT flicker like they said.

90Hz works well on VR. Strobed 4k/90 would be a good compromise if they had that available as an option. (That goes for this one and the other high frame rate 4Ks coming up)

Edit: neat little detail there - I didn't know the BlurBusters guy had talked to Palmer about it.
mdrejhon said:
In late 2012, I told Palmer about LightBoost gaming displays, which helped inspire him on his low-persistence journey
 

llien

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Feb 1, 2017
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What does it mean, when monitor that is merely covering sRGB gamut is said to "support HDR"?
 

Durante

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peter.metaclassofnil.com
What does it mean, when monitor that is merely covering sRGB gamut is said to "support HDR"?
The same thing it means when people say that a monitor or TV with a standard IPS panel, even if it has expanded color range, "supports HDR": that it can interpret the input signal, but not really reproduce the intended effect.

The marketing name for actually doing HDR as intended is "Ultra HD Premium". The Acer x27 and its ASUS pendant conform to that spec.
More information.
 

Imp the Dimp

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Not sure if I'm missing the point but why spend 2k bucks on a monitor when you are likely better off just getting a well received TV? Too big for some people I guess?
 

laxu

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Not sure if I'm missing the point but why spend 2k bucks on a monitor when you are likely better off just getting a well received TV? Too big for some people I guess?

Few TVs have full array local dimming backlights. None of them support over 60 Hz input at 4K. Most of them are too big to comfortably use as desktop monitors and have much higher input lag and response times.
 

Durante

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Not sure if I'm missing the point but why spend 2k bucks on a monitor when you are likely better off just getting a well received TV? Too big for some people I guess?
Well, first of all, anything larger than 40" isn't really usable as a monitor in a production setting, and I want a single display device which can serve both content creation and gaming needs. Smaller TVs don't have local dimming backlights, which makes them "HDR" at best.
Secondly, no TVs do more than 60 Hz input at 4k (and it's actually still somewhat rare to get 60 Hz at 10 bit HDR in 4k without chroma subsampling).
Thirdly, input lag even on the best TVs is in the 35 ms range with HDR, while most G-sync monitors are in the 0.25 to 4 ms range.
 

Alexious

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Nov 5, 2015
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Few TVs have full array local dimming backlights. None of them support over 60 Hz input at 4K. Most of them are too big to comfortably use as desktop monitors and have much higher input lag and response times.

Nailed it. Size is main problem for me
 

Kaako

Felium Defensor
May 20, 2007
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apod.nasa.gov
Well, first of all, anything larger than 40" isn't really usable as a monitor in a production setting, and I want a single display device which can serve both content creation and gaming needs. Smaller TVs don't have local dimming backlights, which makes them "HDR" at best.
Secondly, no TVs do more than 60 Hz input at 4k (and it's actually still somewhat rare to get 60 Hz at 10 bit HDR in 4k without chroma subsampling).
Thirdly, input lag even on the best TVs is in the 35 ms range with HDR, while most G-sync monitors are in the 0.25 to 4 ms range.
Why are TVs so far behind still on input lag? Is it a hardware/processing issue?
Also with the introduction of HDMI 2.1 and VRR, can we see TV manufacturers take input lag more seriously and improve it? I don't think think VRR will solve the input lag issue but the overall experience should be much smoother compared to now, yes(?)
 

Arulan

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Dec 14, 2010
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Why are TVs so far behind still on input lag? Is it a hardware/processing issue?
Also with the introduction of HDMI 2.1 and VRR, can we see TV manufacturers take input lag more seriously and improve it? I don't think think VRR will solve the input lag issue but the overall experience should be much smoother compared to now, yes(?)

It's mostly due to TVs being designed for a passive viewing experience, rather than an interactive one. Yes, processing does add a lot to it, which is why a lot of TVs now do offer a game mode which turns that off, but even so, it's still not as fast as what you'd expect from a monitor.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the Acer X27 reviews. If it reviews well, that or the Asus variant could be my next display.
 
Nov 13, 2016
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Well, first of all, anything larger than 40" isn't really usable as a monitor in a production setting, and I want a single display device which can serve both content creation and gaming needs. Smaller TVs don't have local dimming backlights, which makes them "HDR" at best.
Secondly, no TVs do more than 60 Hz input at 4k (and it's actually still somewhat rare to get 60 Hz at 10 bit HDR in 4k without chroma subsampling).
Thirdly, input lag even on the best TVs is in the 35 ms range with HDR, while most G-sync monitors are in the 0.25 to 4 ms range.

That's amazing! My ASUS ROG PG279Q (1440p, 165hz, g-sync) has between 20-25ms of input lag on a full black to white transition (which IIRC is how TVs are measured) and I thought that was great. Well, I suppose I should've done better research before picking up that ASUS. :p
 

laxu

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That's amazing! My ASUS ROG PG279Q (1440p, 165hz, g-sync) has between 20-25ms of input lag on a full black to white transition (which IIRC is how TVs are measured) and I thought that was great. Well, I suppose I should've done better research before picking up that ASUS. :p

I think you are mistaking response time and input lag. Response time is the time it takes to transition from one color to another (black to white or gray to gray for example). Input lag is the lag caused by TV processing. The best TVs now are somewhere in the 20ms range which is actually pretty good. I have both a <10ms 144 Hz display as well as a 4K TV with about 21ms input lag and at least for me both are just fine.

Your PG279Q has only a few ms of lag, entirely unnoticeable.
 
Nov 13, 2016
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I think you are mistaking response time and input lag. Response time is the time it takes to transition from one color to another (black to white or gray to gray for example). Input lag is the lag caused by TV processing. The best TVs now are somewhere in the 20ms range which is actually pretty good. I have both a <10ms 144 Hz display as well as a 4K TV with about 21ms input lag and at least for me both are just fine.

Your PG279Q has only a few ms of lag, entirely unnoticeable.

That's a common mistake, but definitely not the case here. Tom's Hardware seems to agree with the measurements I took with my own equipment. What they are calling "absolute input lag" is definitely in the low 20s on my monitor. My LG B6 is about 10ms slower (total 30ms) in game mode using the same testing method. The lowest I've ever measured was about 10ms on a Hanns-G monitor a couple years back.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-pg279q-rog-swift-27-inch-165hz-monitor,4428-7.html
 

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Sep 27, 2006
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So 24" is dead? 27 inch simply feels large for stuff like RTS and moba. Plus I'd need a ned desk to get proper distance.
 

dr_rus

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May 3, 2007
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ASUS PG35VQ 200Hz 3440x1440 UltraWide with G-SYNC HDR



The current information is a bit thin on the ground in terms of specification, but we’re prepared to add what we do know to a bit of educated speculation. The panel is a 35” 3440 x 1440 (21:9 ‘UltraWide’) model with a native 200Hz refresh rate and support for Nvidia G-SYNC HDR (30 – 200Hz variable) to keep tearing and stuttering in check. The other aspect of this is the HDR (High Dynamic Range) capability, with support for HDR10. This model features an FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) solution with 512 zones on the backlight, allowing some sections of the screen to be very bright and some to be very dim. This compares favourably in terms of contrast performance to most LCD monitors, which simply have a single backlight controlled as one unit. As with all G-SYNC models, the backlight will almost certainly be ‘flicker-free’. It also makes use of Quantum Dots to enhance the colour gamut and hence potential range of shades and vibrancy potential offered by the monitor. The DCI-P3 colour space is supported, so a colour gamut of at least 125% sRGB is expected. Finally, 10-bit colour will be supported as this is another ‘G-SYNC HDR’ and HDR10 requirement.

This seems to be the first non-4K HDR monitor announced, if I'm not mistaken?
 

Siddiqui

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Aug 20, 2013
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Looks like Samsung's gaming HDR monitor might be first to market. This is an unboxing of the CHG70 - Freesync 2, 144 Hz, QDot, 1ms. I'm not a big fan of curved monitors though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJK8Hz-XXoo

Looking forward to the review. I'm guessing this is a VA panel like their last gaming monitors so it should be much more affordable than the FALD monitors. They were planning on having a Gsync version eventually as well. There's also the s27hg50 popping up at random places which was supposed to be a flat version with the same specs but the s25hg50 ended up just being a 144Hz TN panel so it might be the same with this.
 

Machspeed007

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May 27, 2011
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I've followed the discussions on HDR PC monitors, here and in other places, and I'm not convinced that FALD on a PC monitor is so much better for HDR. I've seen an youtube video with the mouse pointer moving over the black screen and.. I don't like it at all.

I mean, FALD could be an acceptable solution for watching movies and TV programs.
Not so much for displaying static low-key images like we don on a PC monitor.
I would much prefer a color correct, high native contrast panel, where I can disable FALD and/or edge lighting altogether. I could live with an uniform backlight as well.
 

dr_rus

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May 3, 2007
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Just FYI both 27" 4K Gsync HDR displays are now officially delayed till 1Q18. No word on the 35" UWs but since they are using a different panel they may be fine.

Got to say, HDR launch has been pretty weak so far in PC space, in both s/w and h/w. Most games which are coming out over the next months aren't even mentioning HDR support on PC. Best HDR displays right now are those based on a 60 Hz version of the same 27" 4K LG panel which are hardly the best option for gaming and they do cost a lot as they are generally positioned as "pro" monitors.
 

Daante

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Sep 19, 2007
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Dell UP2718Q review: (4k , 60hz, 384-zone LED backlight HDR monitor)

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_up2718q.htm

HDR Gaming

"This is not a gamers screen of course but it's one of the first to market with true, well-implemented HDR support. It has the necessary high end spec for HDR along with a great local dimming implementation that we will talk about more later on in the review. HDR gaming from a PC is still in its very early stages and achieving HDR effectively from a PC is actually still very difficult. We won't go in to the details as we will move too far away from talking about the monitor, but there are operating system, graphics card and software considerations all to account for - not to mention the very limited support for HDR in PC games themselves right now. This screen is equipped nicely to support HDR gaming in the future, with all the necessary specs and features to offer a great experience. It is likely though that you would want to limit any gaming to slower paced games, not fast FPS or fast racing games as the UP2718Q is not really equipped to handle those as well. Response times are a little slow, and you are limited to a 60Hz refresh rate.

There are some 27" gamer-orientated displays coming later in 2017 with similar high-end HDR support as well, so if HDR gaming from a PC is what you're interested in you may be better waiting for one of those. Options like the Acer Predator X27 and Asus ROG Swift PG27UQ for instance will offer similar specs and local dimming implementation, but will also offer a high refresh rate of 144Hz, NVIDIA G-sync support, faster response times (in all likelihood, certainly when using higher refresh rates), lower input lag (since G-sync screens are invariably next to no lag), and even ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur) for blur reducing benefits.

The other area to consider here is console HDR gaming. Thankfully that part of the gaming market is a bit more mature, and it's far simpler to achieve HDR thanks to the enclosed nature of the system - no software, graphics card or OS limitations to worry about here. If you have a console which can output HDR for gaming such as the PS4, PS4 Pro or X Box One S then the Dell UP2718Q will support those over the HDMI 2.0a connection.

The screen conforms to true HDR specs as we've already mentioned (and will discuss more later), and will support 3840 x 2160 Ultra HD resolution and offer a wide colour gamut for boosted colours as well. Given the consoles are limited to 60Hz refresh rate, and you cannot use features like FreeSync/G-sync or ULMB with them there is less of a gap between the UP2718Q performance and the likely performance of the gaming HDR displays we mentioned before. Yes, those will probably have faster response times, a better controlled overdrive impulse, and probably a lower lag but the performance of the UP2718Q is still likely to be close behind at this 60Hz console gaming limit. It is also likely to be on par or better than many LCD TV's out there in this regard. It will of course be a much smaller screen size than a HDR TV is likely to be, but the point here is that it can probably handle some console HDR gaming pretty effectively if you want to. It's not the intended market for this screen, but it's still a good possibility.
"[/B]

Conclusion:

In wrapping up this massive review it feels important to remember the target market and uses for this Dell display. It is a high-end screen aimed at colour critical work, professional users and HDR content creators primarily. No doubt it will attract some attention from early adopters keen to venture in to the world of HDR from a desktop monitor for gaming and videos as well, but those are not really the intended application. We will talk about that in a moment. The UP2718Q does offer an excellent option for professional use, with the wide gamut backlight and massive range of presets and colour spaces making it ideal for those wanting to work with varying content. An Ultra HD resolution for super-sharp images, the 10-bit support colour depth and features like hardware calibration and the very good uniformity correction function separate it from general screens. Even if you ignore the HDR support, the UP2718Q is an excellent option following on from other previous UltraSharp Premium screens.

Overall it's a bit mixed when it comes to HDR support although the screen is certainly future-proofed for high end true HDR uses. It's just that we're not convinced the rest of the HDR journey is there yet. This is not through any fault of Dell's or the display, but more to do with how the current PC and monitor HDR market is right now overall.

If you are an HDR consumer and have the necessary HDR input sources figured out, then this is one of the few choices around right now. There are some other so-called HDR screens out there now, but most won't meet true HDR10 specs or have the advanced backlight systems that the Dell provides so that helps distinguish this as a high end HDR option. Just don't underestimate the complexities in actually getting HDR to work or finding the content just yet from a PC.

The screen will set you up nicely for the future as it becomes more readily available, but don't be fooled in to thinking there's loads of consumption options out there right now.

Where HDR is more settled at the moment is with external devices like Ultra HD Blu-ray players and games consoles. They should work well from the UP2718Q thankfully and make use of the true HDR performance offered.

If you are a content creator trying to develop HDR content then the UP2718Q is an excellent choice as the true HDR spec and well-implemented local dimming backlight system make working with HDR content very possible."
 

dr_rus

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Yeah, worth pointing out that Dell's UP2718Q is using the same LG panel which is supposed to be used in all three announced so far 4K 27" Gsync HDR monitors early next year - but it's running at 60Hz in UP2718Q's case (and lacks Gsync of course). So this review should give us a pretty good idea of IQ and issues, the things which will probably change between 60 and 144+Gsync panels are pixel response times and input lag.