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[Loxley]

*edit - Why are people getting so angry at this when PA are clearly making fun of Kickstarter scams (of which there have been plenty)? Are you so annoyed with PA simply existing that you'll just ignore the content and context of the comic for the sake of making jabs at it?

The Banner Saga is the only Kickstarter I've donated to, really looking forward to it, especially th free multiplayer that's slated for this summer. Unfortunately, yeah, statistcially at least a few of these games that are getting funded will likely never see the light of day (not talking about the Double Fine/Wasteland 2 success stories).

Ok, this first page is ridiculous. Context people.

For the last week or two, Penny Arcade has been linking and pimping out a number of different Kickstarter campaigns. They're Kickstarter supporters, people. Just read through their last couple of posts.

Then this week, an actual Kickstarter scam comes out. So they make fun of it. Just that scam, and the type of people who unfortunately fall for them.

It's... painful to read GAF at times.

Yep. I've become convinced over the years that GAF has a chunk of users who's sole purpose on these boards is to hijack every thread about Penny Arcade -regardless of the content - and just talk shit about it. I actually find it pretty amusing now since it happens like clockwork every time.

 

[jooey]

I think a ridiculous number of people on this site construe things in the most negative way possible and are completely lost when it comes to subtlety/things not explicitly disclaimed in bold lettering.

Oh, there's no "think" about it.

 

[DarkKyo]

I like PA but when they are wrong, they are really fucking wrong.

A gaming webcomic making fun at the faults in the world of gaming? Oh my god no way.

PA isn't saying kickstarter doesn't serve a good purpose here and there, but a lot of kickstarter pages are like this fictional one here.

 

[Opiate]

Then please, oh mighty kickstarter sage, enlighten me, please

Kickstarter is still a crock of shit IMO. Maybe I'm "missing the point" but I don't see ANY point in giving someone money unless they give me a product in return. But hey, I work for the money I have.

My point really is that it's just the newest thing that caters to people who have more money than sense. Pet rock? Snuggies? They might as well make Kickstarter ads AS SEEN ON TV!! It's basically the same shit, you're just "donating" 19.95 instead.

The first and most important point is that the major video game companies aren't very good. Even if we were to dismiss all subjective arguments, their balance sheets over the past five years (EA has lost billions, Ubisoft has lost hundreds of millions in the last two years, Take 2 is also net negative since the generation began) as well as market capitalizations (EA, Take 2 and many others have seen capitalization plummet to a small fraction of their highs) indicate that these aren't brilliant companies making great decisions. In addition, the rise of companies like Zynga, Rovio and Gameloft -- even if you do not personally like them -- indicates that the traditional, major players are leaving huge gaps in consumer needs; if EA/Activision/Etc. had been successfully meeting the needs of all gaming consumers, then these until-recently tiny companies never would have had a chance to grow in to huge competitors.

As such, it's entirely possible that they are missing significant opportunities. If you believe that these publishers are missing an opportunity -- that is, if you believe there is a way to make money that they are missing -- an efficient way to bypass them is something like Kickstarter.

That is what you are missing.

 

[Gravijah]

people actually thought they were making fun of kickstarters in general? really? really?

 

[Opiate]

A gaming webcomic making fun at the faults in the world of gaming? Oh my god no way.

PA isn't saying kickstarter doesn't serve a good purpose here and there, but a lot of kickstarter pages are like this fictional one here.

Yes, this strikes me as correct.

This is particularly true because Kickstarter is still quite new, so of course in its early stages scams are going to be common as people figure out how the Kickstarter "system" works and can begin to readily distinguish between "Yes, these guys can definitely make a real, great game" and "these guys are frauds hoping to make a quick buck."

 

[Tellaerin]

Oh shit they finished the new Wasteland? I was under the impression that it wasn't even close to being started, but who knows I don't live in the future.

I think PA hit the nail right on the head, KS is ridiculous. What's wrong with having game COMPANIES that are well established for making GOOD GAMES ALREADY make games? It's only been working well for the past FOREVER

The fact that game COMPANIES don't greenlight the games that a lot of us WANT them to? If the existing system was as working as well as you seem to believe, I'd've had my Wasteland and (real) Shadowrun sequels years ago.

Let me throw the question back at you: What's wrong with people throwing their money behind the products they want to see made? Why are you so heavily invested in the idea of protecting the status quo? From your comments here and in other Kickstarter threads, I'm getting the impression that you either work for a big publisher or own stock in one, because you act like Kickstarter's threatening your livelihood whenever you post something like this. And it's making it very difficult to take your opinion seriously.

 

[Shaffield]

people actually thought they were making fun of kickstarters in general? really? really?

Seriously, I have been very disappointed by 90% of this thread.
Tycho has positively mentioned some Kickstarter project in almost every news post over the last few months, they are just making a damn joke about the hilarity of the scams on the website.

They are pretty bright dudes and they obviously see the difference between Double Fine and that stupid lottery asshole

 

[bonesmccoy]

edit: sangreal beat me!

Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

Of course there's some 'risk' involved, but there is with any pre-order purchase you make.

 

[bishoptl]

blah

Holy shit you're annoying. Be annoying elsewhere.

 

[Feep]

Holy shit you're annoying. Be annoying elsewhere.

I was cool until he dissed Snuggies.

Snuggies are awesome.

 

[sangreal]

I suppose someone could have posted some of Kickstarter's ToU for Coal to read, since it's clear he was operating almost purely on assumption:



Of course there's some 'risk' involved, but there is with any pre-order purchase you make.

I did :|

 

[Patapwn]

Their approach was way too obvious... I recommend being more subtle next time

 

[bonesmccoy]

I did :|

lol, sorry!

 

[HK-47]

Did people really not get that they are riffing on suspicious projects?

 

[Alexios]

Holy shit you're annoying. Be annoying elsewhere.

Thank you.

Edit: ok guys, thread title was different at first, some other members got carried away with knee jerk reactions, but I'm pretty sure there's little of the "PA sucks" stuff past the first page so you may as well continue discussion in ways more meaningful than just pointing out mistakes in the early posts or even claiming the majority of the thread is like that, when it isn't...

 

[NEO0MJ]

The line "You can online with friends...or you enemies" never fails to crack me up.

Anyways, it is amazing how many failed to grasp it.

Holy shit you're annoying. Be annoying elsewhere.

I wish I had one of you "baned!" GIFs at hand, but I dont.

 

[rpmurphy]

The recent Kickstarter hubbub must have gotten to GAF, since this isn't even the first comic they made about the site: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/05/23
Almost a year ago...

 

[mclem]

Has a single game came out from kickstarter yet? Like in actually released and you can buy it?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jwishnov/sequence-a-rhythm-roleplaying-game?ref=live

You may possibly have heard of it.

Someone on this page *definitely* has.

 

[Proven]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jwishnov/sequence-a-rhythm-roleplaying-game?ref=live

You may possibly have heard of it.

Someone on this page *definitely* has.

Sheesh, and he gave away the game on GAF? I didn't even know that Kickstarter existed back then.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

This thread is now about Feep.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Did anybody mention the Ron Paul: THE VIDEOGAME Kickstarter SomethingAwful ripped to shreds recently? That one was pretty funny, though it did manage to get around $10,000 before people caught on it was just a shitty HTML5 game with Earthbound sprites.

Not that I oppose kickstarters mind you (hell I funded Republique just to annoy that one Twitter guy Neogaf was going on about last week), but there really are some 'scam' kickstarters out there and I think that's more what Penny-Arcade's poking fun at.

 

[NervousXtian]

Your post is stupid & full of BS.

Kickstarter is one of the best things to happen to gaming in the recent years, that's a fact, not an opinion. Yeah, maybe not every game will turn out TEH BEST EVER, but at least we get a CHANCE of getting the kind of games WE want, not the kind of games EAs focus testers want (i.e. shit like Mass Effect & Dragon Age 2).

The fact that Wasteland 2 only exists through Kickstarter is proof enough that you understand shit about this stuff. "It's" obviously NOT working well and hasn't been working well for a long time.

No that's still an opinion.

Also, do we have to resort to hyperbole about how EA (etc) is the only one making games? Yet ignore things like Bastion, Jamestown, Frozen Synapse, Terraria, Binding of Issac, Trine 2, Legend of Grimrock, Amnesia, and many more great indie developers who've succeeded sans KS.

Wasteland 2 isn't proof of anything but Wasteland 2 being wanted by a rabid fanbase who always wanted a sequel. But even more likely it also brought in fans because the original box art for Wasteland was badass and many people never played it but remember the box.

A few really big KS is not enough to give any kind of definitive verdict on KS being "needed" as a true alternative funding source for the long term.

 

[Munin]

I find the people in this thread who apparently.think Kickstarter has somehow only existed since the Double Fine kickstarter really amusing.

 

[NervousXtian]

I find the people in this thread who apparently.think Kickstarter has somehow only existed since the Double Fine kickstarter really amusing.

I don't think that's entirely the case, but that was definitely a turning point in the gaming community of making KS seem viable for large projects.

 

[Ramblin]

Kickstarter and PA in one thread? Can we incorporate npd into this discussion?

 

[Htown]

So nobody actually put the relevant part of the news post in here?

There was a fairly high profile hoax/scam thing on Kickstarter for “Mythic: The Story Of Gods And Men” that was swiftly pulverized by community sleuthing. As suggested previously, one is - in many cases - funding the “idea” of a game, ideas being a quantity in ready supply. If they had been less stupid, less obvious in their ruse, they could have taken in their eighty thousand dollars and then promptly evaporated. We may expect the next villain to utilize a more sophisticated approach.

Despite not wanting to be the Kickfather, it seems like it keeps happening. Not every time I want it to, of course: it’s not actually something I have control over. I can’t make things succeed. But as a medium, as a rebroadcasting apparatus to the microcommunities that can bring something like this to fruition, my body will suffice.

It is my preference to link projects late in their “lives,” after they’ve already succeeded, which implies a certain volume of crowdwisdom - this is an effort to minimize the incredible, almost historic potential I have to disseminate fraud. I directed you to Zombicide and Ogre specifically because their lavish attention to the “stretch goal,” add-ons, and pledge structures seemed like technology others could leverage. These teams also represent considerable slabs of cultural beef: legends in each case, whose failure to perform would damage their existing businesses. For creators of sufficient lineage, Kickstarter is more blackmail than funding source. I feel that we can rely on that grim pressure.

Even so, these two projects have seen jumps that are virtually nonsensical; you’re welcome to compare their numbers now to the ones in Wednesday’s post. In a truly Meta level of commentary, the Zombicide team asked if they could do a Cardboard Tube Samurai stretch goal, and I said yeah, but what I didn’t say was that the goal they set was way too high and they would never actually accomplish it. They seemed excited, and I didn’t want to harsh their mellow. But I’m thinking I was probably wrong.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Fixed. Subtle, but very important difference. Still I see Kickstarter as useful since it allows games that otherwise would never have been greenlit, to actually get made. However they could certainly do more to protect users from scammers.

*shrug*

That's the risk I run fronting up money to get a game that wouldn't otherwise be made.

.

 

[Hatten]

The problem with KS is simple: if you look at the TOS it says nobody is supposed nor obliged to deliver anything

Read it all, nowhere you'll find a clause saying "promises to backers must be fulfilled"

So the john videogames character is right on the money

KS actually can't do anything once the guy who posted the project gets the money, they can only do something during the pledge, not after

If "john" decided to take your money and run there's nothing you can do

A guy once told me nobody would do that because his reputation would be destroyed forever, but truth is there's a long line of people that doesn't gives a crap about reputation and would trade theirs for some easy money right now.

3 months ago I talked to a chick running a KS for a music-related site or something and she wouldnt stop bragging about how it was "my money now" and she could do anything she wanted with it, even not trying to make the product at all.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

So many people are ready to attack kickstarter on this basis. Yet, the bulk of backers know precisely the risk they'e getting into. I've backed ten projects, and with all of them I thought "gee, I hope this works out." That's... that's the culture. Why shouldn't I spend my money on a promise? I'd rather back a game I love the sound of that might get made rather than some DRM-infested half-game that the big publishers have pushed out.

 

[Hatten]

Look I'm not saying you shouldn't use KS, just that without a failsafe cases like this will will keep happening.

And no, most backers actually expect the game will get done, not that the guy will take the money and do nothing, but with the current TOS there's nothing stopping that from happening

 

[sangreal]

The problem with KS is simple: if you look at the TOS it says nobody is supposed nor obliged to deliver anything

Read it all, nowhere you'll find a clause saying "promises to backers must be fulfilled"

So the john videogames character is right on the money

KS actually can't do anything once the guy who posted the project gets the money, they can only do something during the pledge, not after

If "john" decided to take your money and run there's nothing you can do

A guy once told me nobody would do that because his reputation would be destroyed forever, but truth is there's a long line of people that doesn't gives a crap about reputation and would trade theirs for some easy money right now.

3 months ago I talked to a chick running a KS for a music-related site or something and she wouldnt stop bragging about how it was "my money now" and she could do anything she wanted with it, even not trying to make the product at all.

did you actually read the kickstarter TOS before bumping this thread (they've already been posted in this thread more than once). Because the terms say exactly what you claim they do not:

Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

While Kickstarter absolves themselves of liability, there is nothing stopping you from suing a project creator.

 

[Hatten]

While Kickstarter absolves themselves of liability, there is nothing stopping you from suing a project creator.

So you would spend no less than $1,000 suing some guy for what, 50, perhaps 100 bucks that you donated? you plan to do that every time some wise guy tries to raise money for a fake project?

When you buy something at walmart and it doesnt works you return it to walmart and they deal with the manufacturer. What you are saying is akin to going all the way to China to return a defective toaster

That quote from the KS TOS is the typical fine print that makes it impossible for consumers to get their money back, because the process it's so complicated it's not worth it, so they give up.

 

[sangreal]

So you would spend no less than $1,000 suing some guy for what, 50, perhaps 100 bucks that you donated?

KS is the equivalent of saying "yeah this car has no brakes and I can kill myself, but I could always sue the corporation that makes it and get my money back". Unless you include damages (which in this case would be almost impossible to prove) you would spend several hundred times your donation on lawyer fees

When you buy something at walmart and it doesnt works you return it to walmart and they deal with the manufacturer. What you are saying is akin to going all the way to China to return a defective toaster

You can be defrauded on every transaction you make on a daily basis. I'd still love to know why you claim:

Read it all, nowhere you'll find a clause saying "promises to backers must be fulfilled"

That's almost a quote of what the terms actually do say.

 

[Hatten]

Don't try to twist what I just wrote, the terms mentions rewards, not the promise which is to finish the project in full, and say the project creator, not KS, should refund the backer. If the project creator disappears you are SOL, and if he doesn't complies again, what are you going to do? get a second mortgage to pay for a lawsuit? go ahead...

And I would love to know exactly in which transactions I make on a daily basis I can be defrauded that easily, unless what you do all day is answer nigerian scams.

 

[TAJ]

Wow, that Mythic scam was incredibly lazy.
They didn't even bother to make samples of the swag. They just (obviously) shopped a logo onto photos of a shirt and bag.

 

[kuroshiki]

You can be defrauded on every transaction you make on a daily basis. I'd still love to know why you claim:


That's almost a quote of what the terms actually do say.

Eh.

Sorry, while I don't care how people spend their money (back KS or whatever) but your statement is naive as hell. Theoretically, yes, you can sue for $2.99 ice cream melted or milk gone bad. Remember though, theoretically, you're also guaranteed to have a freedom of speech. But try to say N word in the front of black person to exercise your freedom.


Just because in theory it works doesn't necessarily mean it works in the real world everytime.

 

[disappeared]

I can't believe the amount of over-reactions in this thread. Both ways.

I laughed at the comic.

Comedy, serious business.

 

[RockTurtle]

am i late with this one?

 

[Htown]

The problem with KS is simple: if you look at the TOS it says nobody is supposed nor obliged to deliver anything

Read it all, nowhere you'll find a clause saying "promises to backers must be fulfilled"

So the john videogames character is right on the money

KS actually can't do anything once the guy who posted the project gets the money, they can only do something during the pledge, not after

If "john" decided to take your money and run there's nothing you can do

A guy once told me nobody would do that because his reputation would be destroyed forever, but truth is there's a long line of people that doesn't gives a crap about reputation and would trade theirs for some easy money right now.

3 months ago I talked to a chick running a KS for a music-related site or something and she wouldnt stop bragging about how it was "my money now" and she could do anything she wanted with it, even not trying to make the product at all.

You really bumped a two week old thread for this nonsense?

It's simple. If you don't want to take the risk, then don't. Kickstarter backers are willing to risk their money to fund these projects, in order to make possible products that otherwise wouldn't exist.

It's that simple.

 

[Bolt Vanderhuge]

am i late with this one?

They were wrong about online DRM not being a big issue but they were right about "that guy" buying it anyway.

 

[Eusis]

They were wrong about online DRM not being a big issue but they were right about "that guy" buying it anyway.

I kind of expect people didn't seriously expect there to be this much trouble anyway, at least not beyond the initial burst for the first few hours or day at worst. It's kept me from buying anyway despite pre-ordering!

 

[Hatten]

Great article from The Verge: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/27/3099051/backers-rights-what-kickstarter-funders-can-expect-when-they-pledge

Backers have not entered into an investment contract by donating toward a project, and because contributors are offered no financial return of any kind the legal implications of an investment contract are non-existent, says Bradford.

"Contributors on reward or pre-purchase sites are offered no financial return of any kind," he writes in the Columbia Business Law Review. "They are promised only a product or service — a consumption item. Therefore, no investment contract is being offered. And, because investors on reward or pre-purchase sites are not offered stock, notes, or anything else that falls within the definition of security, federal securities law does not apply."

The result is a crowdfunding model that offers backers no entitlement to products they've supported. Kickstarter officials contend that the company is simply a venue that provides the marketplace, and while the cost of a successful project is shared widely, users will not receive company protection for the risk of loss using the platform. Kickstarter is a buyer beware market, and as the backer's rights are limited to its Terms of Use, the system in its current form relies on the collective force of the community to keep its individuals safe.

 

[NoirVisage]

I'll never support any existing KS, but i'm not mad at those who put their hard earned money toward helping to develop a game that normally wouldn't have been made. Sure there are risks but i'm pretty sure its common knowledge by now, pledger beware, but if $25 gets me a 50% chance of seeing a strategy RPG/ harem comedy starring big booty sistas become a reality, i will take that risk.

 

[Aselith]

Don't try to twist what I just wrote, the terms mentions rewards, not the promise which is to finish the project in full, and say the project creator, not KS, should refund the backer. If the project creator disappears you are SOL, and if he doesn't complies again, what are you going to do? get a second mortgage to pay for a lawsuit? go ahead...

And I would love to know exactly in which transactions I make on a daily basis I can be defrauded that easily, unless what you do all day is answer nigerian scams.

The project is part of the rewards.