009EspadaSageJay
Member
Thats the crazy thing most of these people have the sex life of a bunny I dont know why some fake characters gets these people in a bind its all make believe.
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Persona 5 Royal To Be Censored In the West, Bigotry of Low Expectations for the Gay Community. Reddit Censors Gay Voices!
- Thread starter DeepEnigma
- Start date
- News
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Localization would keep everything as close to the original product as possible, with a very small amount of changes where necessary (such as idioms and metaphors being changed to better suit the country it is sold in). What is being done here isn't localization, but a malicious attempt at trying to push their own political ideals and outright changing the original director's vision. You know this, but given how you seem to love riding on the SJW Cult's cock, I don't think you really give a shit and are here expressly to troll.
sensui-tomo
Member
"In addition to translation, the localization process may also include:
- Adapting graphics to target markets
- Modifying content to suit the tastes and consumption habits of other markets
- Adapting design and layout to properly display translated text
- Converting to local requirements (such as currencies and units of measure)
- Using proper local formats for dates, addresses, and phone numbers
- Addressing local regulations and legal requirements
I dont know how I can further define localization. Also again i dont see how removing a joke that may offend someone is now all of a sudden political unless we're saying stereotypes are political all of a sudden.
I see that this does fall on deaf ears so I'll just lurk from now on.
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009EspadaSageJay
Member
"Fuck DA2 for doing that and just to make things clear and I'm saying this for clarity for myself and other "Fuck bioware for their attempt at what they call diversity. It's a money grab and they know they were doing it for the wrong reason " and fuck no I dont want all protags to be fucking bi. If you're gonna use a negative stereotype in your game you should have a positive one to cancel out said stereotype."
- What it seems you want is what bioware provides you are asking for characters to be this and that with literally almost 0 connecting context that is almost on the level of the yaoi or anime shipping community. And if you want to just spin and throw darts at a board to make decisions of what character is this or that then you pretty much advocating for fan fiction level writing.
Also "If you're gonna use a negative stereotype in your game you should have a positive one to cancel out said stereotype"
- ill use saints row 2 for example so because Pierce which is black and Johny gatt who is Asian are portrayed as gang banger then there needs to be a carbon copy of them that are cops uu thats not how things work. In fact good luck finishing your project on time because off of creating characters alone your game is about to double or triple in size. Unless your arguing for characters to just be background props that just tick checkboxes
"I know.... did you fucking read what you quoted."
- I dont know why your getting hostile you made a claim that was incorrect and told you the claim you made was not true. You arent the 1st we have had multiple media outlets keep talking about kanji being gay or naoto being trans which means that they didnt pay any attention to the story same thing if they think cloud is trans.
"Can you show me said people doxing devs? I've seen claims but alas nothing to prove it."
- im not going to go dumpster diving for tweets but its not hard to conntect the points when we have mutiple people on reset era do mutiple poles on what needs to be banned from X game. These people doxxed people from CDPR and got to the point where the lead creator mike pondsmith told all the people complaing to STU
009EspadaSageJay
Member
The USA branch is just a mouth piece from what I understand with the Catherine: Full Body they still need to report back to the main japan branch if anything happens dont know if that still the same. Of course the media outlet is happy these outlets wrote articles for months to years on end saying how gamers are dead all of that blew up in there face. If atlus does what they did with Catherine full body it will be a some what stop gap on this situation the oboious parties wont be happy but those people dont buy anything to begin with and big media outlet reviewers dont even pay for the games they have to review.
sensui-tomo
Member
Breaking my own statement, damn but back on point. Please read that quote again. I said "you'd be surprised how many dumbasses think yusuke and kanji are gay" and I went on that tangent about kanji being the whole toxic masculinity aspect personified. Meaning I know full well kanji wasnt gay. And anyone who pushes that or the Naoto is trans thing is wrong .(Naoto's problem being that of workplace sexism and only thought being a man would solve things because of sexist workforce etc etc) and yeah being hostile didnt help sorry about that, that 100% my bad.
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Hypereides
Member
Essentially; "You're gay, but I know what's best for you. Trust me, I'm your ally".
I can't...
Anyway, wasn't the idea of P5R that it was supposed to add more content. Not take it away.
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EDMIX
Member
To be clear, I'm saying I want the entire medium to progress....
mcjmetroid
Member
Sadly though for me it was the only part of the game that made me chuckle.
Man, people are making such a big deal out of one little forgettable scene. Why people love to make gaming so complicated for themselves?
I tend to enjoy controversial humour though
Bullet Club
Member
DW74
Member
What a hill to die on.
A battle for the ages.
It doesn’t seem to occur to many people that video game development itself is an act of censoring from beginning to end. It’s an iterative process where you’re continually asking yourself “should I put this in or not”, “is this appropriate or not”, or “is this what I want to say or not?”.
I bet some people would lose their fucking minds if they knew how much “inappropriate” stuff is on the cutting room floor that they never even knew about. Movies and television too!
To the Japanese: What the fuck is it with you guys with pedophilia and incest??
A battle for the ages.
It doesn’t seem to occur to many people that video game development itself is an act of censoring from beginning to end. It’s an iterative process where you’re continually asking yourself “should I put this in or not”, “is this appropriate or not”, or “is this what I want to say or not?”.
I bet some people would lose their fucking minds if they knew how much “inappropriate” stuff is on the cutting room floor that they never even knew about. Movies and television too!
To the Japanese: What the fuck is it with you guys with pedophilia and incest??
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LegendOfKage
Member
davidjaffe
Weighed in on this one. For a while the "if the government did it" argument was bothering me, but then towards the end of the video, it's admitted that censorship can come from outside of the government. The actual change also seems to be about predatory behavior rather than character age. If the change was just to make a 16 year old character 18, I don't think many people would care. That could be argued to be a change focused solely on localization, although I personally feel it shouldn't be necessary anyway, because the entire game clearly takes place in Japan. At that point, it's almost culturally insensitive, ironically enough. As if to say, "this game might be set in Japan, but those people think the wrong way." Clearly that depiction of the characters isn't illegal in the US, as the game was released that way years ago.
Then again, as said before, the change isn't really about age.
For me, if changes should be considered censorship comes down to a single question. "Is this change being implemented due to a question of morality?" You answer that, and you answer the question. When someone complained about a sexualized pose in Overwatch, the change the developers made was censorship. When the developers of Overwatch released their game in China and removed all references to homosexuality, that was censorship. You can argue that it's self-censorship, but it's still censorship. When Blizzard punished that streamer for voicing his support of the protestors in Hong Kong, that was censorship. It may have largely be the result of trying to protect their sales in the name of free market capitalism, but that doesn't mean it wasn't censorship. The reason for the change isn't what matters, it's the reason for the petition of the change in the first place. And if that reason is "morality," then the change is censorship.
Criticism obviously isn't censorship, but if media gets changed to fit the moral values of a critic due to their criticism, how is that not censorship?
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
I don’t know why game devs don’t realize that they will never win with these people.
They put gay characters in their games, it’ll be why aren’t trans people in it. You put trans characters in it, it’s why aren’t non binary people in it. You put non binary people in it, it’s where are the pronouns? You put pronouns in it, it’s you didn’t put the right pronouns. Then it’s you didn’t make the character gay the right way, or trans the right way, or non binary the right way. Then it’s of course they didn’t make the trans character right, because you don’t have any trans developers working on your games. “It’s not the job of a straight white male to craft a trans character, only a trans developer should craft a trans character!”
It’ll go on and on forever and ever until devs put their foot in the sand and say fuck off. If you don’t like the game, don’t buy it. And just like every game with faux outrage, it’ll sell extremely well. Just like Kingdom Come Deliverance did, among others.
They put gay characters in their games, it’ll be why aren’t trans people in it. You put trans characters in it, it’s why aren’t non binary people in it. You put non binary people in it, it’s where are the pronouns? You put pronouns in it, it’s you didn’t put the right pronouns. Then it’s you didn’t make the character gay the right way, or trans the right way, or non binary the right way. Then it’s of course they didn’t make the trans character right, because you don’t have any trans developers working on your games. “It’s not the job of a straight white male to craft a trans character, only a trans developer should craft a trans character!”
It’ll go on and on forever and ever until devs put their foot in the sand and say fuck off. If you don’t like the game, don’t buy it. And just like every game with faux outrage, it’ll sell extremely well. Just like Kingdom Come Deliverance did, among others.
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Hawks Eclipse
Member
I was considering writing a reply to post #255 with a similar angle to what you laid out so well.
The target audience is one that would want the game to depict Japan as faithfully as possible, this would include their stereotypes and black humour, which I think is what that scene falls into.
I think you've boiled it down perfectly, though I would like to add the caveat that it has to exist in a finished form and then get changed thereafter to be considered as censored.
In P5R's case, the black humour of Ryuji being dragged away by the audacious gay duo might not stick the landing with everyone but I am of the opinion that it should be kept intact since that was the original intention of whoever wrote it.
Hawks Eclipse
Member
I think it's fine if developers make changes in the creation process due to feedback from all sorts of people.
I wonder if part of the problem is because there might be genuine requests mixed along with the screeching.
To use a rough analogy: Imagine I'm selling burgers and I have customers who genuinely want burgers with no beef on the menu, perhaps for health reasons.
Along comes a small group of SJWs making lots of noise asking for the same thing but for 'progressive' reasons.
Do I forgo my genuine customers' requests in order to stick it to the SJWs? Or do I alter my menu and have the SJWs smell blood in the water?
Personally, I'd alter the menu for the genuine customer's sake. And if the SJWs think it means they can make more demands, they'll be rejected accordingly when their demands diverge too far from the reasonable.
My point is, maybe it's not always that the devs don't know how to put their foot down, it just isn't at the appropriate point yet.
TheGreatYosh
Banned
PedoEra still not happy. I won't be picking up Royal.
David Jaffe is right. There is one of my fellow straights in the game depicted as a predator. I think Atlus should change that too.
If the change was just to make a 16 year old character 18, I don't think many people would care. That could be argued to be a change focused solely on localization, although I personally feel it shouldn't be necessary anyway, because the entire game clearly takes place in Japan. At that point, it's almost culturally insensitive, ironically enough. As if to say, "this game might be set in Japan, but those people think the wrong way." Clearly that depiction of the characters isn't illegal in the US, as the game was released that way years ago.
Then again, as said before, the change isn't really about age.
For me, if changes should be considered censorship comes down to a single question. "Is this change being implemented due to a question of morality?" You answer that, and you answer the question. When someone complained about a sexualized pose in Overwatch, the change the developers made was censorship. When the developers of Overwatch released their game in China and removed all references to homosexuality, that was censorship. You can argue that it's self-censorship, but it's still censorship. When Blizzard punished that streamer for voicing his support of the protestors in Hong Kong, that was censorship. It may have largely be the result of trying to protect their sales in the name of free market capitalism, but that doesn't mean it wasn't censorship. The reason for the change isn't what matters, it's the reason for the petition of the change in the first place. And if that reason is "morality," then the change is censorship.
Criticism obviously isn't censorship, but if media gets changed to fit the moral values of a critic due to their criticism, how is that not censorship?
David Jaffe is right. There is one of my fellow straights in the game depicted as a predator. I think Atlus should change that too.
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Barnabot
Member
JAMMA
Last warning for console wars
Wait, so would you want to buy the game if it was the uncensored version *but* the devs hadn’t originally framed these characters as predatory while still having the same behavior? I mean, which is it? Do you want completely uncensored games or do you want games to fit your bias too?
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TheGreatYosh
Banned
Are you talking to me?
No. I'm not buying it because they're making changes to the game because some mentally ill predators didn't like seeing themselves in the game. Ree should be happy that they are being represented in a game.
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HelpYouFall
Member
All I wanna know, is the crazy cool Batman cat in this or not? That stupid grin he makes when he finishes an opponent is the best thing ever lol
PC Specialist ad banned for perpetuating harmful gender stereotypes
An advert for a bespoke PC retailer was banned for perpetuating harmful gender stereotypes of women.The TV ad, below, f…www.eurogamer.net
Tell me about it.
I meant moral or ethical obligation (or even financial interest) of course the state can and will bend you into a pretzel.
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Exactly, it is always about power and you can never have enough power especially if you get a taste.
Best not to give the taste to begin with.
RiverMan
Neo Member
"Should I repurchase a game that took well over 100 hours to finish the first time, now with 40 more added on?"
Thanks for making that decision for me, Atlas USA! Enjoy having $60 less now that you've listened to people who will still find something else to complain about. After all, you're catering to the same 'audience' that is mad because Ann has breasts.
Thanks for making that decision for me, Atlas USA! Enjoy having $60 less now that you've listened to people who will still find something else to complain about. After all, you're catering to the same 'audience' that is mad because Ann has breasts.
Mitsuda Maniac
Member
Don't try to fool yourself into thinking your decision is going to cause Atlus financial woes. They have already calculated this themselves and have decided they will earn more money by "catering" to those who actually want the change (unfortunately they are probably right). Glad you are principled I guess, but you are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of this thing. It is a business decision by Atlus to make more money, just not the outcome you personally desired.
RiverMan
Neo Member
Yeah, out of principle I'm not buying it. Though I would like to see them take a hit for this, the point isn't how it will affect them in the long run. If somebody doesn't take a stand, who will?
I'll stick with the version where the cat forces me to go to sleep. Unless they decide to patch vanilla P5 too. In that case it's trade-in time.
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Pejo
Member
Here's the problem with this food analogy. The SJWs aren't there to buy burgers. They only eat kale, and kale is not served at the burger joint.
I genuinely believe that a lot of the screeching to cause censorship is just because these people want to reduce the enjoyment of others. They are such narcissists that they take every non homage-like reference to their "identity" as an attack.
It's not like having this joke removed from the game has helped at all. If anything, people are now hyper aware of the joke that was originally made, and the original content in the original game and JP version of Royal. I find it hard to believe that there's a homosexual anywhere in the world that read this news and said to themselves, "Yes. This is how we gain acceptance, I can sleep easily now." It's strictly there as a reductive measure and a public beacon.
I mean you don't see plumbers go to Twitter every time someone does a buttcrack joke.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Man, people are making such a big deal out of one little forgettable scene. Why people love to make gaming so complicated for themselves?
As has been stated numerous times to you, some people have principles that they stand by. Not change and ignore when it suits them. Censorship is censorship.
TheKingKRoach
Member
Even though I rolled my eyes towards the scene, I think censorship is redundant, since it's empty lip service towards westerners without actually doing something about the writers who wrote that portion or fighting for LGBT rights in Japan. They didn't learn from what Nagoshi did. This activism of gatekeeping faithful adaptations certainly isn't helping gay and trans people in Japan.
There's a lot of people using this as an excuse to be xenophobic and imperialist towards Japanese developers, and it's really disgusting. Video games will never be considered art until people stop treating games as products, free to censor and add all sorts of corporate crap to. Censorship included, as we don't see controversial books like lolita and mein kampf being censored or banned for sale in America.
If they said that they were simply changing the scene to be more faithful to the original intent (As speculation is pointing towards the original English localization leaving a lot out of context), instead of the whole PR stunt they did, they wouldn't have the PR nightmare they have now.
That said, between the fact that the added content is disappointing, it's a $60 rerelease of a game that is $20 nowadays, the unnecessary third-party PS4 exclusivity (When the previous rereleases were handheld games, and considering that SEGA and Atlus are big enough to not warrant an exclusivity deal), the announcement of content being cut from the game before launch to sell as DLC, the fact that the PS4 Pro support is pretty bad, and this whole nonsense, I'm personally not going to buy it, and just get Doom Eternal and Half-Life Alyx instead. Those games actually look like love and care was put into them. Atlus has been milking their IPs to death. The game was already selling below expectations in Japan (alongside Sakura Wars). It's going to flop in the West too, considering they are releasing at the same time as a lot of other games.
People damage controlling censorship and all of the bullshit that Atlus has done over the years clearly aren't listening or making strawman arguments.
There's a lot of people using this as an excuse to be xenophobic and imperialist towards Japanese developers, and it's really disgusting. Video games will never be considered art until people stop treating games as products, free to censor and add all sorts of corporate crap to. Censorship included, as we don't see controversial books like lolita and mein kampf being censored or banned for sale in America.
If they said that they were simply changing the scene to be more faithful to the original intent (As speculation is pointing towards the original English localization leaving a lot out of context), instead of the whole PR stunt they did, they wouldn't have the PR nightmare they have now.
That said, between the fact that the added content is disappointing, it's a $60 rerelease of a game that is $20 nowadays, the unnecessary third-party PS4 exclusivity (When the previous rereleases were handheld games, and considering that SEGA and Atlus are big enough to not warrant an exclusivity deal), the announcement of content being cut from the game before launch to sell as DLC, the fact that the PS4 Pro support is pretty bad, and this whole nonsense, I'm personally not going to buy it, and just get Doom Eternal and Half-Life Alyx instead. Those games actually look like love and care was put into them. Atlus has been milking their IPs to death. The game was already selling below expectations in Japan (alongside Sakura Wars). It's going to flop in the West too, considering they are releasing at the same time as a lot of other games.
People damage controlling censorship and all of the bullshit that Atlus has done over the years clearly aren't listening or making strawman arguments.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
I agree, I think devs should take feedback and adjust accordingly. But I think it’s easy to tell what’s being demanded for compliance and what’s actually genuine. The sonic movie thing was genuine. It looked absolutely horrible and everyone knew it. The persona thing is not genuine. I think these days many people can tell the difference when something is legit, and something is forced compliance for power and control.
The problem is the latter groups will never be happy. So if you start giving in you set a horrible precedent and basically give a group of people who are never satisfied Carte Blanche to just force them to change their game/art/creation to the will of the outrage mob. That’s where I have a problem. This is the developers art, they should be able to create it in their own image. How they see fit. Being forced or pressured or bullied into changing things all the time takes away these creative liberties.
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Hawks Eclipse
Member
The analogy's point is that maybe some of these seeming concessions to SJWs are actually meant for the genuine customers who did request something which overlaps with the SJW demands.
And I suppose you're approaching with the idea that most SJW demands are so ridiculous and/or petty that no normal person would ever want something which happens to align with their demands.
Hawks Eclipse
Member
And in my post, I was wondering if it's possible that part of the perceived problem of pandering is because there might be overlaps between genuine demands and those from the mob.
I'm also of the opinion that the creator's intent should not be restrained by mob outrage. That said, I do entertain the possibility that some changes would be made regardless of the outrage.
Just to be clear in case my earlier reply wasn't seen, I'm not a fan of what I've read about that change for P5R though I'm also rather curious as to what the end result reads like.
009EspadaSageJay
Member
The problem is these people complain and dont buy anything there are countless games that have tried to appease these people and it fails. These people dont support anything that's the bigger problem and most of the time this stuff has irrepressible consequences and does nothing but kill the ip or the company in the process. Most of these people also complexly over look context which is why MEA turned out the way it did and people have very vocal negative opinions about it them turning the krogan race into wimps is one of them. Like I said in a previous post these people want to play nothing but fan fiction or ergo especially when these people want like 80% of the character to be gay especially in games where sex is completely irrelevant like Mortal kombat.
009EspadaSageJay
Member
A business decision that has a net negative financial outcome? Who is this going to please 3% of the player base while upsetting 70% also atlus doest not have endless cash flow this will hurt them P5R and Catherine full body and Tokyo mirrage sessions already didn't sell well in japan or here.
009EspadaSageJay
Member
Alright I think we reach a common understanding
LegendOfKage
Member
I agree, but only to an extent. Personally, I would say unless the criticism or concern originated from entirely internal sources, even in those instances it would still be censorship. The example that comes to mind is the beta of Street Fighter V. In the beta, one of the female characters slaps her own butt in an animation. I'm sure that people complained, and if that inspired the change, I still consider that to be censorship. In the full game, the animation is zoomed in so you can't see the butt slap.
RiverMan
Neo Member
Exactly. How are they profiting? The only community celebrating this decision is the most hated hellhole on the Internet. Atlus chose Misery Mire over their actual customers.
And guess what! They're not happy! They've made it clear in their feedback they're still not going to buy the game for a hundred other reasons. You've given them this inch. They want a mile. Why wasn't the same censorship applied in Japan? Where are Akira's gay romance options? Ann is too "sexualized." What's this I hear about some sex pest teacher!? Problematic, problematic, problematic.
Mitsuda Maniac
Member
I hate Reeeee, but they have a much larger site with many more users and far more pull within the gaming industry. Average Persona fans also don't care about this and will be buying Royal.
009EspadaSageJay
Member
They arent but someone in the company is probably feeding them some BS about how REera is like 80% of the gaming population and they just take there word. These companies think getting good press with kotaku,ploygon and gamesport equals good sells. I havent met a causal gamer yet that went to those sites and bought stuff based off of what they said. What normally happens is they go to gamestop ask bob what came out and should they buy it. And the hardcore gamer has been avoiding those sites like the plague since last gen. 90% of the people complaing Where are Akira's gay romance options? Ann is too "sexualized." What's this I hear about some sex pest teacher!? ect. These same people are in the anime shipping and yaoi community they completely negate context and forward thinking the only thing they want is to complain about why x is not this because of some made up reason.
009EspadaSageJay
Member
"I hate Reeeee, but they have a much larger site with many more users "
Not when there have been mutiple reports about how barely anyone post discussions or even vists there sit to participate in discussions.
"and far more pull within the gaming industry. "
Easy to do that when you blackmail dox and use social terrorism
"Average Persona fans also don't care about this and will be buying Royal. "
The average user thinks P5R is a rip off that should of been $20 DLC. And isnt going to buy it at launch
The in between costumer is already having second thoughts about the game. And is just going to buy base P5 for $20 and call it a day or stick with the version they already have
The hardcore fans have already started to cancel there $100 CE editions and are boycotting the game.
To make up for these losses everyone over at ReEra would have to buy 5-6 copies each to make up for these losses.
TheGreatYosh
Banned
They are still upset over at ReetardEra. "Alt-lus Right strikes again" lol. It's too bad he doesn't live up to his username.
Solid Snake asking the question we all want to know.
Solid Snake asking the question we all want to know.
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JSoup
Banned
Was this article linked? It's a large thread full of battalions of text.
nichegamer.com
Report: Did ResetEra Orchestrate the Censorship of Persona 5 Royal? - Niche Gamer
We have now learned that ResetEra may have orchestrated the outcry over Persona 5 Royal, leading to its censorship.
nichegamer.com
Hawks Eclipse
Member
If I work your description in to my analogy: it'd be as if instead of merely adding non-beef burgers to my menu, I changed it such that I only sell non-beef burgers.
Then yes, that would be sort of business suicide, since this is effectively chasing away all the genuine customers who came for the beef products in the past.
However, if I simply added non-beef burgers because there were genuine requests for it, people could still lament that I am giving an inch to the SJWs. This is the problem I am wondering about.
Hawks Eclipse
Member
I'd mostly forgotten about it, sadly.
Street Fighter 5 sparks "censorship" debate
There's a vociferous debate ongoing within the fighting game community right now over what some have called "censorship…
www.eurogamer.net
A few things: originally I wrote "in a ready-to-consume form" as opposed to "in a finished form" but chose the latter because it's shorter, so thanks for reminding me that sometimes I should stick to being longwinded haha.
I don't know if the beta animation would have raised the rating above T, but I personally would have preferred if they kept the butt slap visible. It's such a goofy, signature move of R.Mika and so well animated.
infinitys_7th
Member
Are they going after the Kamoshida arc now and saying the game makes it comedic?
Fucking idiots never even played the game. They'll want it scrubbed like that TMS dungeon.
infinitys_7th
Member
Let's be real - if Ren and Goro could make a buttbaby in the Cognitive World, Era would be all over that and would demand leather fetish gear for their boi Goro to parade around in.
The only sexualization they think is wrong is of women. Probably because they got rejected so much that they internalized it like other incels do.
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kurisu_1974
is on perm warning for being a low level troll
Shit like the first post is why i completely deleted my Reddit account last month. First a post I made got deleted becasue I called something (NOT someone!) "retarded", some time later I got ganged up on in a movie thread for just floating the idea that "women direct less movies because they are usually less interested in visual arts and more into music and writing" which apparently made me some kind of nazi mastermind and then I said, fuck this whole thing. I hate alt-right as much as I do super woke idiots so there's no place for me on Reddit.
Sorry for the off topic rant.
Not really sorry.
Sorry for the off topic rant.
Not really sorry.
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