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Persona Community Thread |OT4| The Golden Number

kewlmyc

Member
Dec 15, 2011
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What kind of outfit would that even be?

Link me something and I'll maybe do it.
Just have her in a purple suit fighting shadows with a dildo bat. That pretty much sums up the Saints Row boss. Pure badass hilarity.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Oct 16, 2012
10,506
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Back to argument from authority, then?
But it's... not?

That's not how that argument works. Or even looks like.

And argument from authority is not immediately fallacious in general. That's sort of the mistake that a ton of people make.
 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
26,542
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Again, so snippy.
You're not giving me much to work with here.

But it's... not?

That's not how that argument works. Or even looks like.

And argument from authority is not immediately fallacious in general. That's sort of the mistake that a ton of people make.
I'm not an authority, anyway. I'm a student. I have some perspective from authority.

It is, he's saying that I'm making a mistake because I'm under-qualified, implying he has more authority over me.
No. This is anything but personal, for the record.
 

Gazoinks

Member
Aug 19, 2013
6,907
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CA
Policenauts is really great. Finishing up this should put me in a good position to replay the Innocent Sin fan translation again.


The work on this was a whole other level, though. Extraneous cursing aside, they did a bang-up job.



Very professional work.
What is the game itself like?
 
What is the game itself like?
Basically a giant visual novel with point and click and occasional shooting.

If you don't enjoy dialogue trees with massive amounts of detail put into the world and easily missed content just from not examining thing, you might not be into it. But oh, if you do...

Oh yeah, and some guy named Hideo Kojima made it. He's famous for games about giant robots.
 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
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You've yet to actually refute my point? Everytime you try, you fall back on what's popular or authority.

You sure make it seem that way.
What is this, a court of law? I don't have to refute anything.

You're inferring a lot from nothing. It's not personal. The argument didn't even involve you to begin with. You just jumped in because it was framed as "P2 is terrible" when I never said anything like that.
 

Gazoinks

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Aug 19, 2013
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If you don't enjoy dialogue trees with massive amounts of detail put into the world and easily missed content just from not examining thing, you might not be into it. But oh, if you do...
Pft! The worst things!

I'll have to check it out sometime, sounds like my kind of thing. Is it as crazy as Kojima's MGS writing or had he not gone insane by that point?
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Nov 5, 2005
52,177
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SF Bay Area
I'm getting my degree on this very subject, so not the sort of armchair design wiz that permeates gaming side, if that's what you're wondering.
You do realize there can be a bit of a stigma to game design specific degrees in the industry, yes? Especially towards the heavily theory-crafting types (if that's their main passion/focus/mindset and can't really contribute/create/implement anyway). At least in my experiences with former colleagues over the past several years.

For the sake of argument: grinding is an objectively bad mechanic. Do people really enjoy having to pour hours upon hours into repetitive battles just so they can progress in the story? It's bad game design to force a player to do this.
If the battle engine is enjoyable/fun/good enough, I'll go out of my way to grind. I loved grinding in something like the Grandia games.
 

Daimaou

Member
Sep 18, 2011
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What is this, a court of law? I don't have to refute anything.
That's kind of the point of arguments.

You're inferring a lot from nothing. It's not personal. The argument didn't even involve you to begin with. You just jumped in because it was framed as "P2 is terrible" when I never said anything like that.
Yet again, so snippy.
 
Pft! The worst things!

I'll have to check it out sometime, sounds like my kind of thing. Is it as crazy as Kojima's MGS writing or had he not gone insane by that point?
It's not as crazy, but it gets pretty out there. Has a few enjoyable plot twists, and great characters. The music is a little bland, aside from a few stand out tracks. I'll probably do a post-mortem on my blog when I'm done.
 

Acid08

Banned
Feb 4, 2008
40,966
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Bay Area, Cali
You've yet to actually refute my point? Everytime you try, you fall back on what's popular or authority.
You don't have an actual point. You're just saying that no one can be wrong over and over again.

Game design doesn't work like that. The designers have to make choices by deciding which mechanic/graphic/song/whatever is better than another one. It comes down to taste and preference but they still have to make that choice in the end. They can make the wrong choice too. If 95% of players HATE a mechanic then do you really think the developers are happy with their effort? Or are sitting around defensively saying "well we can't be wrong because we thought that was the right choice"?
 

kewlmyc

Member
Dec 15, 2011
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...Maybe I'll just stick to normal clothes/in-game outfits for these pictures.
It was a joke. Considering Saints Row has you wearing any outfit and looking like anyone you want, it would be hard to pinpoint that the SR Boss should look like.
 

Daimaou

Member
Sep 18, 2011
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You don't have an actual point. You're just saying that no one can be wrong over and over again.

Game design doesn't work like that. The designers have to make choices by deciding which mechanic/graphic/song/whatever is better than another one. It comes down to taste and preference but they still have to make that choice in the end. They can make the wrong choice too. If 95% of players HATE a mechanic then do you really think the developers are happy with their effort? Or are sitting around defensively saying "well we can't be wrong because we thought that was the right choice"?
Ad Populum.

As I said, games are primarily a business, and thus there is an impetus to reach as many people as possible. On that metric, one game can be "better" than another. But taken as an art form? No, this doesn't matter.

Edit: To elaborate, because their pay hinges on the success of the game, devs have an interest in how a game performs in the eyes of the mainstream audience. If they didn't have to worry about that, do you think they would be that concerned whether everyone loved their game or not?
 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
26,542
0
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Los Angeles
If the battle engine is enjoyable/fun/good enough, I'll go out of my way to grind. I loved grinding in something like the Grandia games.
A lot of people like grinding and it's a success when a battle system hooks you that way, but if it's necessary - if you need to do it in order to progress - someone screwed up somewhere. It's a very blatantly bad thing to let happen. The only reason I'm not calling it a design choice is I suspect it's not, more often than it is.
 

Acid08

Banned
Feb 4, 2008
40,966
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Bay Area, Cali
If the battle engine is enjoyable/fun/good enough, I'll go out of my way to grind. I loved grinding in something like the Grandia games.
Being forced to grind and doing it because you want to are different things though. If a game is forcing me to grind then it isn't designed well.
 

Sophia

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Feb 8, 2008
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I enjoy Persona 2's battle system. It's basically FFX's system.

I just don't like the tarot card aspect. :<
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Nov 5, 2005
52,177
0
0
SF Bay Area
You don't have an actual point. You're just saying that no one can be wrong over and over again.

Game design doesn't work like that. The designers have to make choices by deciding which mechanic/graphic/song/whatever is better than another one. It comes down to taste and preference but they still have to make that choice in the end. They can make the wrong choice too. If 95% of players HATE a mechanic then do you really think the developers are happy with their effort? Or are sitting around defensively saying "well we can't be wrong because we thought that was the right choice"?
I don't think it's fair to say something's objectively a good or bad design choice in general. Something like grinding (repeating a certain scenario a certain amount of times before moving on to the next section) could work well for a tutorial, i.e. fighting game combo practice - until you can do the basic links and chains consistently and understand the timing for which specific attacks connect with each other, you can't try out the more difficult ones.

It's like saying CG is objectively bad and everything should use practical effects. Everything's just a tool, it's all about how you utilize and implement it in terms of the whole picture.
 
Dec 1, 2004
26,791
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South Carolina
www.neogaf.com
Here's something interesting if your curious, a SMT III: Nocturne Prototype, originally under the name of SMT III: Vortex.

It contains some interesting stuff.
  • Maya and Lisa 3D models and Lisa talking in a cut scene, which I;m guessing were used as prototypes for the Nocturne engine to see how it would work.
  • Lilith had more involvement in the game in some form, other than being a demon to have in party.
  • Louis Cyphre having a look more akin to SMT I and II.
  • A completely different UI interface compare to the one in game.
  • A different battle UI interface, which in included Moon phases instead of the Katsuguchi phases found in the game, a bar at the top for which I don't what it's purpose is, demons having a bigger involvement in negotiation from what it looks like. And battle taking place in what looks like nothingness.

One more thing.....
SMT wrestling has the deepest lore
I WANT YHWH AND THE HITOSHURA IN VGCW WITH THOSE INTROS NOW NOW NOW NOW.
 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
26,542
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Los Angeles
You do realize there can be a bit of a stigma to game design specific degrees in the industry, yes? Especially towards the heavily theory-crafting types (if that's their main passion/focus/mindset and can't really contribute/create/implement anyway). At least in my experiences with former colleagues over the past several years.
Yeah, I understand. I don't think I'm really going that deep here though, to where that would be a concern.

Yet again, so snippy.
Yes, we have established I'm snippy. I have nothing against you though!

I don't think it's fair to say something's objectively a good or bad design choice in general. Something like grinding (repeating a certain scenario a certain amount of times before moving on to the next section) could work well for a tutorial, i.e. fighting game combo practice - until you can do the basic links and chains consistently and understand the timing for which specific attacks connect with each other, you can't try out the more difficult ones.

It's like saying CG is objectively bad and everything should use practical effects. Everything's just a tool, it's all about how you utilize and implement it in terms of the whole picture.
Fair enough. A lot of things are more than the sum of their parts.
 

Acid08

Banned
Feb 4, 2008
40,966
0
0
Bay Area, Cali
Ad Populum.

As I said, games are primarily a business, and thus there is an impetus to reach as many people as possible. On that metric, one game can be "better" than another. But taken as an art form? No, this doesn't matter.

Edit: To elaborate, because their pay hinges on the success of the game, devs have an interest in how a game performs in the eyes of the mainstream audience. If they didn't have to worry about that, do you think they would be that concerned whether everyone loved their game or not?
Yeah, I think game developers want people to like their games. Fucking duh. You're absolutely crazy if you think otherwise. And it isn't just a sales thing. They're putting something they're passionate about out there for the world to experience.
 

EMT0

Banned
Dec 7, 2012
5,009
0
0
Yes, we have established I'm snippy. I have nothing against you though!
Just gonna leave the passing comment that being overly snippy makes you seem a bit standoffish; getting into a debate while remaining snippy just leaves a bad impression.

But in other news, this is me right now with the twist this thread has taken recently

 

Daimaou

Member
Sep 18, 2011
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0
Yeah, I think game developers want people to like their games. Fucking duh. You're absolutely crazy if you think otherwise. And it isn't just a sales thing. They're putting something they're passionate about out there for the world to experience.
"Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia." -Kurt Vonnegut

Edit: Yes, I realize the irony here of me quoting a famous author.
 

Acid08

Banned
Feb 4, 2008
40,966
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0
Bay Area, Cali
I don't think it's fair to say something's objectively a good or bad design choice in general. Something like grinding (repeating a certain scenario a certain amount of times before moving on to the next section) could work well for a tutorial, i.e. fighting game combo practice - until you can do the basic links and chains consistently and understand the timing for which specific attacks connect with each other, you can't try out the more difficult ones.

It's like saying CG is objectively bad and everything should use practical effects. Everything's just a tool, it's all about how you utilize and implement it in terms of the whole picture.
But tools can be implemented poorly is what I'm trying to say. Tools themselves aren't objectively bad, you're totally correct. But I do think it's fair to criticize how people make use of them.
 

Daimaou

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Sep 18, 2011
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Was only a matter of time before someone brought this out, really.
I think games would be in a much better place, in the sense of being taken as art, if devs could actually follow that advice and not have to worry about sales.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Jan 11, 2012
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Estoma Sword brah, Estoma Sword
All I know is that if it wasn't for Doping and Mediaharama, much of that game would've been intolerable. That and Enduring Soul or whatever it is that lets you come back with full HP.

I'd probably use a FAQ for the old FF games, to be fair.
Honestly I don't know how people beat NES FF2 or DQ3 without a walkthrough.

How about an Andy Warhol of Rise.


This but with 9 Rises.


Joking aside, where can I view your art? I love fan art, well... the majority of it.
That's a lot of pictures of Kanji you got there, Makoto.
 

Sophia

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Feb 8, 2008
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I think games would be in a much better place, in the sense of being taken as art, if devs could actually follow that advice and not have to worry about sales.
It's simply impossible to ignore sales. In any medium. Especially not when the games themselves are so expensive to make in the first place.

The reality is that developers and artists must simply balance their vision with the needs of their consumers. That's where the truly good games come from.

Honestly I don't know how people beat NES FF2 or DQ3 without a walkthrough.
They're not terribly difficult games. They just ask the player to invest some time into exploring. Which is not an unreasonable request if you're playing a game. :p

Final Fantasy 2 has a totally abusable level system anyhow. >_>;
 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
26,542
0
0
Los Angeles
I think games would be in a much better place, in the sense of being taken as art, if devs could actually follow that advice and not have to worry about sales.
Both desires can co-exist and do for many studios, but it doesn't matter since any dev who wants to make games for a living is going to worry about sales. This is why the Super Meat Boy guys were upset their game was buried on XBL, for instance. As anti-corporate as they are, they want those sales.
 

Daimaou

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Sep 18, 2011
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It's simply impossible to ignore sales. In any medium. Especially not when the games themselves are so expensive to make in the first place.

The reality is that developers and artists must simply balance their vision with the needs of their consumers. That's where the truly good games come from.
Not really, there are tons of great free games made for very specific audiences. Some of those even go on to get full retail versions.

Edit: I suppose there's the caveat of "and make a living off of it."
 

Sophia

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Feb 8, 2008
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Not really, there are tons of great free games made for very specific audiences. Some of those even go on to get full retail versions.

Edit: I suppose there's the caveat of "and make a living off of it."
Those games don't come truly free however. They're cost the time and dedication of their creators. If they wish to continue it as a hobby, they have to accept the limits of what they can do on no real budget and compromise on their ideal visions anyhow.
 

Lunar15

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Jun 15, 2011
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Thanks Style! I actually went into paint and muted the red a bit so it matched the dengeki cover a little more.

Alright RiseGAF, we takin' over.