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Phil Spencer admits that developing for two different specs is more work for devs.

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Deer/Dur
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The Codemasters guy said it was a simple process 🤷‍♂️

This is a guy who has actually done it for real.
Its about more than just implementing an extra build. That build still needs to be QA'd and pushed through all the hoops required for publication. Its a lot more work across the board.
 
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Kssio_Aug

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My god, concern trolling once again!
Who didnt know that? And how much different it is than PS4 / PS4 Pro and XOne / XOne X?
 

Panajev2001a

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My god, concern trolling once again!
Who didnt know that? And how much different it is than PS4 / PS4 Pro and XOne / XOne X?
Not much... ah PS4 Pro and Xbox One X,.. you can count the games purely designed around them and that are maxing them out on... well... ah yes there aren’t any and most games just get a prettier coat of paint (in some cases a minor one too) and the games are designed around the limitations of the base HW. Good point there ;).
 
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Dolomite

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All this time people have been acting like all devs needed to do was flip a magic switch or something, guess this proves that wrong.
It's not flippingg a switch, but it is as simple as MS requiring a single GDK that allows for optimization of specs for multiple SKU's. Programming for Windows, S/X at once is efficient, but obviously more steps than coding for a single SKU.
 

DarkMage619

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Not much... ah PS4 Pro and Xbox One X,.. you can count the games purely designed around them maxing them out on... well... ah there are not any and most games get a prettier coat of paint (in some cases a minor one too) and the games are designed around the limitations of the base HW. Good point there ;).
Well MS makes games for multiple platforms. PC development requires code to run on multiple configurations. This is par for the course. It's the price paid to reach the mass market. Videogames shouldn't only be for the wealthy.
 

Panajev2001a

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Well MS makes games for multiple platforms. PC development requires code to run on multiple configurations. This is par for the course. It's the price paid to reach the mass market. Videogames shouldn't only be for the wealthy.
Again, let’s sidestep the comment about cross-generation / multiple HW specs development and the whole minimum common denominator stuff and jump into Phil “Che Guevara” Spencer (limiting the expensive more powerful HW to help the S the people’s console... 🤔)...

 
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DaGwaphics

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All this time people have been acting like all devs needed to do was flip a magic switch or something, guess this proves that wrong.
In many cases that is all that will be done, moving some internal sliders. But, you still have to playtest and monitor everything on two systems now instead of one, along with the finetuning that goes along with that.
 
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Jigsaah

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I think how much work is gonna depend on the developer and will range from flipping a switch to "we literally cannot run this game on Xbox Series S". I get the feeling the S is going to go the way of the Kinect. People are going to rail against it to the point that Microsoft caves and discontinues it. They end up releasing an Xbox Series X all digital edition.

It never made sense to me that 12 TF vs 4 TF meant 4k vs 1440p and that's it. There has to be cuts in other areas. Framrates, asset quality, something.
 

FrankWza

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I think how much work is gonna depend on the developer and will range from flipping a switch to "we literally cannot run this game on Xbox Series S". I get the feeling the S is going to go the way of the Kinect. People are going to rail against it to the point that Microsoft caves and discontinues it. They end up releasing an Xbox Series X all digital edition.

It never made sense to me that 12 TF vs 4 TF meant 4k vs 1440p and that's it. There has to be cuts in other areas. Framrates, asset quality, something.
i said this in another thread. It don’t think it will be out for the whole gen, especially when a pro model arrives
 
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danielJackson

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All this time people have been acting like all devs needed to do was flip a magic switch or something, guess this proves that wrong.
Yeah it is frustrating how many times xbox gang just doesnt understand how things work, and still spam their PR words as truth.

"2s vs 4s"

"Only loading times"

"Flip switches"

"Easy, just drop 4k to 1080p"

"12tf is much more"

I know it is probably the loud minority and majority are sane people like us "Sony ponys".

Good that official sources can debunk some of the madness.

My guess is that it gets difficult when devs dont target 4k on xsex, then they have more to do than drop res.
 
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FrankWza

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Well MS makes games for multiple platforms. PC development requires code to run on multiple configurations. This is par for the course. It's the price paid to reach the mass market. Videogames shouldn't only be for the wealthy.
they need to hold back progress to reach a mass market? Can’t they just sell over 100 million units without doing that? Other console manufacturers have done it a few times.

and isnt game pass the greatest deal in video game history? How is that only for rich people?
 
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RaySoft

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All this time people have been acting like all devs needed to do was flip a magic switch or something, guess this proves that wrong.
Without having read it yet, Mr. Spencer deserves Kudos for, seemingly, being this transparent. It's so easy for corps spinning this shit, so it's refreshing to just hear the truth.
 
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oldergamer

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Again, let’s sidestep the comment about cross-generation / multiple HW specs development and the whole minimum common denominator stuff and jump into Phil “Che Guevara” Spencer (limiting the expensive more powerful HW to help the S the people’s console... 🤔)...

it's ok if you admit you are wrong, and were wrong after praising all the sony "launch" titles before finding out they were actually cross gen. it's ok... you can keep going on with your "held back" bullshit all you want, as i'm sure you still believe in "generations".
 
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Panajev2001a

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it's ok if you admit you are wrong, and were wrong after praising all the sony "launch" titles before finding out they were actually cross gen. it's ok...
I am not happy those are cross generation. I would have preferred it if at least some or most had been PS5 only titles that dropped the PS4 support. PS5 users are getting less titles that push the new console forward than they could have (unlikely that Sony has separate teams making completely different ports sold as different SKU’s).

Never said cross generation games need to look shitty, but they are not what drives me to the new HW and the new HW forward. Unnecessarily tethered and limited by the base HW.
 

Kadayi

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Playing this like it's notable when they're basically not making games that are platform exclusive it versus for XSX, Series S and PC is kind of funny.
 

oldergamer

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I am not happy those are cross generation. I would have preferred it if at least some or most had been PS5 only titles that dropped the PS4 support. PS5 users are getting less titles that push the new console forward than they could have (unlikely that Sony has separate teams making completely different ports sold as different SKU’s).

Never said cross generation games need to look shitty, but they are not what drives me to the new HW and the new HW forward. Unnecessarily tethered and limited by the base HW.
Actually I seem to recall I was arguing that cross Gen ports could actually be decent, and gave a few past examples created by external teams. I recall you making certain comments about "as long as it runs" and implying something to the effect of shitty port code, and a bunch of other bollocks.

When i look at this, I think to the effect that no game is ever built from the ground up for a specific gen. There's more code reuse between generations and between port versions then armchair developers on this forum would typically know or understand. There are game engines that are scalable and have specific components rebuilt for performance, or to access specific hardware each gen (Unreal engine 5 for instance), but there is literally NOTHING build from the ground up for each gen. No development studio is coming into this gen saying "welp we better start over and throw away all our code to make something really impressive". Unreal 5 updated the core engine code and added paths for the new hardware, while basically not reinventing the wheel with the rest of the engine.

Art creation is the only real place where I think people unknowingly want developers to start over. In most cases art/visuals are what get the true reboot each gen. However, that takes time to author, and its visual/art style that is what separates a current gen game from looking "next gen".
 
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Damian black

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I mean, even the core 360 impacted development for games in a certain way and those consoles were 90% identical in hardware. Of course here the ripercussions will be significant, because the hardware is different between the 2.
 

Riky

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First off, who said the devs were thrilled by it?
And, this time we have an "odd duckling" out with even less ram than the "baseline".
I didn't say anything about being thrilled by anything.

Xbox One S had less Ram than Xbox One X , yet all the same games were developed for it, all of them.

This is a situation Devs have been dealing with since the PS4 Pro appeared.
 

RaySoft

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I didn't say anything about being thrilled by anything.

Xbox One S had less Ram than Xbox One X , yet all the same games were developed for it, all of them.

This is a situation Devs have been dealing with since the PS4 Pro appeared.
No, the Xbox One X had MORE ram than the One S.. these facts are important.
One S were the baseline. Series S is NOT the baseline. This is the whole point the devs are speaking of.
 
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Riky

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No, the Xbox One X had MORE ram than the One S.. these facts are important.
One S were the baseline. Series S is NOT the baseline. This is the whole point the devs are speaking of.
We've seen two third party games so far Yakuza and DIRT 5, launch games no less. And both manage 1440p modes on Series S just as MS said.

So I'm sure Devs will cope, just as they did previous Gen.
 

RaySoft

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We've seen two third party games so far Yakuza and DIRT 5, launch games no less. And both manage 1440p modes on Series S just as MS said.

So I'm sure Devs will cope, just as they did previous Gen.
Are those next-gen titles? I just ask...
 
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Riky

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Are those next-gen titles? I just ask...
What actually is a next gen title? How does it work on PC? Is it something that is made only for a certain spec of machine. Let's take Titanfall that came out at launch on X1, it was next gen until a 360 port arrives later, then it wasn't?

If I look at the minimum specs to maximum specs on PC releases the gap is far bigger than the gap between Series S and X.
 

Almanac

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I have a question about the thread title: did Spencer ever deny that it’s more work?
I don't think he ever denied it, but some people here denied it.

To be fair one has to take into account that developers have to put more work into their titels for the new PS OS features as well. It may have an impact on overall performance, because time and effort has to be put into it.
 
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FrankWza

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I don't think he ever denied it, but some people here denied it.

To be fair one has to take into account that developers have to put more work into their titels for the new PS OS features as well. It may have an impact on overall performance.
thats fair. But isn’t that for the sake of progress and moving the industry forward? At least potentially. The other way youre just holding back.
 
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Boswollocks

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When the XSS is sent to the farm, it will become a stream machine.

What does this mean for Carmacks law (console are 'twice' as efficient as PC because it is one, closed environment/spec)?
 

RaySoft

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What actually is a next gen title? How does it work on PC? Is it something that is made only for a certain spec of machine. Let's take Titanfall that came out at launch on X1, it was next gen until a 360 port arrives later, then it wasn't?

If I look at the minimum specs to maximum specs on PC releases the gap is far bigger than the gap between Series S and X.
ok.. this is MS' new direction this comming gen. This is what Sony ment by "believing in generations". The Series S|X are going the route of PC's now, with the SDK catering for this. All their games will have option for uncapped framerate so that stronger hardware down the line will take advantage.
In my mind a next-gen game doesn't have to be a game that was "impossible" on last-gen*, but a game that leverage the new hardware in such a way that brings about new techniques in the industry. In other words, when you take advantage of a set list of attributes that elevates your process beyond what you could do before... etc..
A next gen-game is the kind of game that is started it's initial planning around the next generation of consoles. (simple as that. We trust our devs enough to take adv. where they can)

* Nothing is impossible, it's only the definitions that change. You could i.e render Toy Story 3 on a Commodore 64, if you have some years to spare. The PS5 UE5 demo could also be done on the C64, albeight with 100 pixels on screen. (you wouldn't be able to see anything, but the logic could run regardless (simplified) etc.. Everything is in the eye of the beholder and everything is relative.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Actually I seem to recall I was arguing that cross Gen ports could actually be decent, and gave a few past examples created by external teams. I recall you making certain comments about "as long as it runs" and implying something to the effect of shitty port code, and a bunch of other bollocks.
So I am now arguing with a windmill of a memory you think you have of something you think I might have said :LOL:. I have half a mind to reply in the same aggressive vein, but that would be even more pointless than attempting an answer. If you have to be nasty you can ignore me, I do not recall having tagged you.

Concise reply in pictures:



In words/wandering stream of consciousness:
The more diverse HW you target with a single application the higher the costs or the lower the utilisation of the potential of each HW and QA will be impacted too (which will siphon resources/time off)... not sure when this went up for grabs.

Can you throw more teams at something and do parallel product development... sure, in some case it can help (but throwing people at a problem might not lead the improvements in development one might hope), but then do you need to maintain the same feature set designed for the highest end HW capabilities (which is the rea lead platform)? Can the two teams work fully independently? Do do you need to launch at the same time? Can you sell it as separate products?

Sure, VF2 Genesis did not hold back Arcade VF2’s development and features, but it is for reasons that should be as obvious as bad the metaphor was :).

... and then we have code re-use and rewrites (which some do) vs custom backends targeting the new HW capabilities with more or less abstractions (which others do), and use of middleware (which lots do). All nice and correct, but orthogonal to what we were talking about and you know it if you were not trying to jump on my neck. Not sure why you wanted to start this, isn’t it easier to ignore me if you hate talking with me mate instead of acting up?
 
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