• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Phil Spencer admits that developing for two different specs is more work for devs.

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
16,774
7,516
2,055
So you dont recall your previous position on this? Im not going to go back an dig up your comments as this wasnt meant to be a gotcha moment, but there was a clear contradiction with something you previously said that implied cross gen games were a "make it run at all costs" to the effect of it being a shitty port. In my eyes you flip flopped.

Not sure what i said that came across as angry (was it bollocks or bullshit?). Anyway what i was getting at was calling a game "next gen" is more nuanced then people on GAF or the gaming media realize.

A game can be fully optimized to get a performance benefit from the new hardware, but not visually impress or have assets authored for the new hardware. Dirt 5 is an example.

Or

A game can visually look next gen despite not using any new hardware features (a good example is that game developed in china by an unknown team) that looks more next gen running on unreal 4.x then everything we have seen so far from either new consoles

Nobody said min spec doesnt matter. Nobody claimed it wasnt a lot of work. Claiming its more work, doesnt contradict any claim that thing are held back by the lowest common denominator.

That statement you posted doesn't exactly support you opinion that previous gen holds back next gen imo. The entire point is that it doesn't have to hold anything back. Sounded like he was saying Its dependent on the assets authored.

Supporting the low end hardware on gta 5 doesnt hold it back from getting visual upgrades and optimizations with newer hardware (case in point the raytracing people hacked into that game, makes it look great)

I find your stance on this was more black and white prior to leaning that sony wasnt truthful in that entire generations based argument
I am not sure why you keep singing this tune and follow me around, but sure I will keep entertaining and thus perhaps I end up supporting your idea that developing one’s
opinion over time would be a console warring tactics (hint: it is not) if that is where your mind went. Also, not sure where I did a whole 180° on this... at all.

One thing I recall clearly was not being quite jubilant upon learning that Sony was indeed porting some of the previously thought PS5 only games to PS4. Handled like two different SKU’s done by different teams like the Forza and TitanFall examples on Xbox One? Sure, but it still means more effort than could have been spent on the PS5 version.

I expect more PS5 only titles by Sony’s first party during the 6-8 months launch window for them not to break my expectations on a new PS launch. I buy new console HW for the generations experience. PS2 had great emulation of PS1 titles and improved textures and loading times, but I bought PS2 for the new PS2 titles or the expectations of them in its first year, not as a BC console.

I still believe that in the general case the older HW does indeed limit the new console and that is what the author of that tweet meant: min specs matter. If you were building an XSX only title on a good budget you would get different results from the scenario where you are developing for both XSS/Xbox One and XSX.
Min spec of XSS/Xbox One would be holding XSX back in those cases (how can you read that any differently is beyond me), not sure when this went up for grabs.
 
Last edited:

oldergamer

Member
Aug 20, 2004
2,906
2,064
1,575
I need to check their interviews, but I think XSX is still running the same or similar hypervisor + Core OS + Game OS setup as Xbox One... of course with major (improvements requiring breaking changes, changes that required games to adapt and recompile essentially) updates to both Core OS and Game OS.

I think their efforts in preserving software is so ingrained in their company DNA that perhaps it was one of the rebel components that perhaps ironically Allard and co. Left behind to chart a new history for Xbox/Xbox 360 and then others continued with Xbox One.

Spencer’s MS is back to MS roots of software compatibility and to be fair even Xbox One was designed and the HW modified to run under a virtualisation layer (first GPU to be fully virtualised) and allow Console OS (Windows derivative) and Game OS (custom OS) to run side by side and be updated independently. I seriously think it is super cool!

This setup is what is now helping them pull rabbits out of the proverbial hat in terms of enhanced BC (especially on Xbox One titles)... I would also hope the number of titles from both OG Xbox and Xbox 360 increased as they seem to get accolades for the emulation improvements but little to no criticism for the quantity of titles available even with basic enhancements.

With that said, magic has a price... price is slightly lower performance as you still have an extra layer between software and HW and it can explain why MS always goes for slightly higher CPU clocks than Sony (as well as the clockspeed increase very late in Xbox One’s development).

Now, the GameOS side could be swapped or load a new VM optimised for Xbox One/OG Xbox (games do not run off the disc, you always download a recompiled/patched version from MS’s servers).
Agreed. This was started with the xbox 360 os and dev tools. The hardware abstraction has helped them thus far. It also prevents them being locked into a single architecture. Be it gpu or cpu.

I think the performance hit is minimal as they are using something similar to HLE and directly translating hardware calls into what the newer hardware expects.

I think sony is going to run into this issue to a small extent this gen, but more in the gen after this one.

Regarding the games, i think ms has run into issues getting permission for certain titles to be made compatible from various publishers. Some dont want games to be included (EA).
 
Last edited:

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
16,774
7,516
2,055
Agreed. This was started with the xbox 360 os and dev tools. The hardware abstraction has helped them thus far. It also prevents them being locked into a single architecture. Be it gpu or cpu.

I think the performance hit is minimal as they are using some similar to HLE and directly translating hardware calls into what the newer hardware expects.

I think sony is going to run into this issue to a small extent this gen, but more in the gen after this one.

Regarding the games, i think ms has run into issues getting permission for certain titles to be made compatible from various publishers. Some dont want games to be included (EA).
Sony had something similar thanks to IBM with the PS3, but not quite as comprehensive. Call translation and sync points (MS was bragging about their solution for the GPU on Xbox One where they only had to have two sync points per frame for the GPU). Overall, their solution may cost them between 2-4% of CPU performance or something around that range (this is not taking into account CPU ISA change...).

I think Sony is slowly waking up to it and I think both PS4 Pro and PS5’s HW, OS, and DevTools contain a non trivial amount of work to ensure PS6 is not terribly hurt by this strategy. PS6 HW will easily be able to brute force very accurate PS1/2/3 emulation in Software (yes even PS3)... we know Sony values more broad compatibility over than enhancement of small titles and they do not want to spend lots of money developing something that is not a generic emulator and would have to have per title enhancements. I suspect that PS4 SDK and especially PS5’s one is charting a course to allow BC with PS4/PS4 Pro/PS5 in future consoles easily. Sony is pretty much forced by users’ expectations with digital libraries to have BC going from PS4 onward.

I find it unlikely that they will need to drop x86 for example for a long long time (there is the chance to go to Intel if AMD will go belly up... would MS go ARM for XSX2? Unlikely, but I guess we will see).
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
16,774
7,516
2,055
Regarding the games, i think ms has run into issues getting permission for certain titles to be made compatible from various publishers. Some dont want games to be included (EA).
I believe this is because of how MS has implemented the per title emulation scheme: games do not run from a disc, you are downloading a new copy from MS’s servers. I expect Sony’s approach for the non enhanced BC titles to have better coverage thanks to that (especially if they were to announce say PS3 BC one day).
 
  • Like
Reactions: PharaoTutAnchAmun

PooBone

Member
Jan 31, 2009
4,143
104
935
This is equivalent to someone “admitting” that they have skin. Not news, not surprising, not controversial.
 

Almanac

Member
Sep 15, 2019
567
978
460
I believe this is because of how MS has implemented the per title emulation scheme: games do not run from a disc, you are downloading a new copy from MS’s servers. I expect Sony’s approach for the non enhanced BC titles to have better coverage thanks to that (especially if they were to announce say PS3 BC one day).
Wait a minute: XSX runs XOne games natively. This was confirmed by DF (Assassins Creed). They installed the disc directly.

You sure mean X OG and 360 games, right? This is the reason why just a few games are supported. Especially OG X. I hope they still work on this issue and are able to bring more games to the table.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
16,774
7,516
2,055
Wait a minute: XSX runs XOne games natively. This was confirmed by DF (Assassins Creed). They installed the disc directly.

You sure mean X OG and 360 games, right? This is the reason why just a few games are supported. Especially OG X. I hope they still work on this issue and are able to bring more games to the table.
Yes, I meant OG Xbox and Xbox 360 games.
 
Oct 16, 2017
1,319
1,966
405
This is equivalent to someone “admitting” that they have skin. Not news, not surprising, not controversial.
That assumes you were ignorant of what was posted on this forum in the last few months. Xbox customers appear to have goldfish memory of what they themselves said or done in the past, but unlucky for them others are more fortunate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PharaoTutAnchAmun

PooBone

Member
Jan 31, 2009
4,143
104
935
That assumes you were ignorant of what was posted on this forum in the last few months. Xbox customers appear to have goldfish memory of what they themselves said or done in the past, but unlucky for them others are more fortunate.
That’s accurate. I’m largely ignorant of what happens on this forum if it doesn’t directly interest me. Glad the record is straight for anyone who could have possibly thought anything otherwise, but “admit” is a strange word for Spencer clarifying something so basic.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PharaoTutAnchAmun

//DEVIL//

Member
May 28, 2014
1,877
828
580
Phil Spencer, Ladies and Gentlemen.

Good to know everyone got to know this when *squints* the series X and series S launch in a little over a month. I still think the Series S is a mistake and they should've focused 100% on the Series X. At best they should've launched a Series X that was digital only.
How can you say series s is a mistake ?
It’s a cheap next gen console. Period
It will play your next gen games at either 2k or full hd. And it’s 300$. 300$ These days for a console is cheap. Period.

it’s not for you or me , I won’t even look at it. But for most people that Don’t care about graphics or for parents that want an Xbox for their 10 years old. This is perfect console for gifts.
I might another Console for my son next year so he doesn’t touch my console and guess what system it will be ? Probably Xbox series s lol . This way with game pass he will play all the games he wants like Minecraft and fortnight online and don’t bother me lol.

The biggest threat the Xbox series s has is the ps5 digital edition . Full console at 100$ more

if Xbox series s was priced at 250$... it will be a killer and probably the best selling sku next gen
 
Oct 16, 2017
1,319
1,966
405
How can you say series s is a mistake ?
It’s a cheap next gen console. Period
It will play your next gen games at either 2k or full hd. And it’s 300$. 300$ These days for a console is cheap. Period.

it’s not for you or me , I won’t even look at it. But for most people that Don’t care about graphics or for parents that want an Xbox for their 10 years old. This is perfect console for gifts.
I might another Console for my son next year so he doesn’t touch my console and guess what system it will be ? Probably Xbox series s lol . This way with game pass he will play all the games he wants like Minecraft and fortnight online and don’t bother me lol.

The biggest threat the Xbox series s has is the ps5 digital edition . Full console at 100$ more

if Xbox series s was priced at 250$... it will be a killer and probably the best selling sku next gen
Funny that, your son can play minecraft and fortnite RIGHT NOW. You can get a 2nd hand Xbox One S for way cheaper than $300. Alternately he can play on a 2nd hand PS4 so that he doesn't even need to pay for PS+ in order to access fortnite.

Why haven't you bought it yet? What are you waiting for? A ten year old doesn't need a next gen machine, certainly he doesn't need it for Gamepass. Everything you just described can already happen on a 2nd hand vanilla Xbox One. Why would you pay $300 for the privilege when $150 would do?
 
  • Like
Reactions: PharaoTutAnchAmun

yurinka

Member
Jan 19, 2007
10,952
1,759
1,520
Barcelona, Spain
www.capcom-town.es
People still don't get that the X1X has the same Jaguar cores developers have been complaining about for years. The X1X would have 'held back' games more than the XSS. The X1 will be discontinued soon if it isn't already.
They discontinued XB1X, but not XB1S, which sould continue being sold next to Series S and X. MS also said that their games for a couple of years will be crossgen, so I assume that they will wait until then to discontinue XB1S.
 

PhaseJump

Member
Aug 26, 2020
50
55
180
Funny that, your son can play minecraft and fortnite RIGHT NOW. You can get a 2nd hand Xbox One S for way cheaper than $300. Alternately he can play on a 2nd hand PS4 so that he doesn't even need to pay for PS+ in order to access fortnite.

Why haven't you bought it yet? What are you waiting for? A ten year old doesn't need a next gen machine, certainly he doesn't need it for Gamepass. Everything you just described can already happen on a 2nd hand vanilla Xbox One. Why would you pay $300 for the privilege when $150 would do?
"What are you waiting for?"

This is dumb. Obviously you would buy the next gen console for the extra value added by the potential of future games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PooBone

Lysandros

Member
Jul 28, 2020
322
1,111
320
There are other points to consider, XSS has only about 35% of the polygon/rasterization throughput of XSX; as far as i know polygon processing cost doesn't scale down with resolution..
 
Oct 16, 2017
1,319
1,966
405
"What are you waiting for?"

This is dumb. Obviously you would buy the next gen console for the extra value added by the potential of future games.
You are not getting any extra value payng 300 dollars when a 2nd hand $150 Xbox One would serve the job. And in a few years when there was actually going to be future games, the price of Series S would have dropped. It might not be $250 but it would be bundled with free games. Buying a series S at launch has no justification, You are spending 300 dollars, holding onto that console for two years, THEN buy the games that goes with it. When you could simply wait those two years so you can buy the games and the Series S together in a cheaper bundle.

By all means, buy a Series X if you want the best possible Gamepass experience at launch day. But Series S does not do anything Xbox One doesn't already do, and buying the hardware NOW, at its most expensive, makes no sense when you can wait until those new games actually come out before buying.
 
Last edited:

FireFly

Member
Aug 5, 2007
1,130
742
1,270
You are not getting any extra value payng 300 dollars when a 2nd hand $150 Xbox One would serve the job. And in a few years when there was actually going to be future games, the price of Series S would have dropped. It might not be $250 but it would be bundled with free games. Buying a series S at launch has no justification, You are spending 300 dollars, holding onto that console for two years, THEN buy the games that goes with it. When you could simply wait those two years so you can buy the games and the Series S together in a cheaper bundle.
1. Current generation games will perform better on an XSS then they do on the Xbox One, which already has huge frame drops in recent titles.
2. Microsoft's first party next-gen output may be delayed, but third parties will be releasing next-gen games over the the next two years. (And we don't have a full first party release schedule for Microsoft, especially considering the Bethesda acquisition).
3. Even if you're focused on first party games only, through Gamepass, then $150 now plus $250 later is a greater total outlay than $300 now. You're paying more money for 2 years of poor performance in cross gen titles and no access to next-gen exclusives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Almanac

FrankWza

Member
Feb 14, 2013
1,944
595
575
Not the first time I have seen this happening in threads of this kind either. Sidestep/dodge the point and attack, as personally as you can based on what is being discussed... try to find the poster in a clear contradiction somewhere and go for the person’s image to have people dismiss everything they say (basic of an ad hominem).
the ultimate dodge is adding an lol emoji but not commenting. I’ve had a lot of those lately. Happens when you’ve dominated. It’s the white flag wave or seppuku of 2020
 
  • Like
Reactions: Panajev2001a

PhaseJump

Member
Aug 26, 2020
50
55
180
You are not getting any extra value payng 300 dollars when a 2nd hand $150 Xbox One would serve the job. And in a few years when there was actually going to be future games, the price of Series S would have dropped. It might not be $250 but it would be bundled with free games. Buying a series S at launch has no justification, You are spending 300 dollars, holding onto that console for two years, THEN buy the games that goes with it. When you could simply wait those two years so you can buy the games and the Series S together in a cheaper bundle.

By all means, buy a Series X if you want the best possible Gamepass experience at launch day. But Series S does not do anything Xbox One doesn't already do, and buying the hardware NOW, at its most expensive, makes no sense when you can wait until those new games actually come out before buying.
You don't make sense and again, your original point is dumb.

FIrst you ask "What are you waiting for" and now you say "You might as well wait."

Paying 300 dollars is a sunk cost up front that will start gaming "now" (Or in a month, the launch.) and have full access to games in the future.

Buying a 150 dollar One now, gives you games now, and in a few years according to your logic you can then get a cheaper-than-300 dollar Series S, and it would be a better deal all around needing to deal with all of that bullshit.

Numbers don't add up, you need to resell the old hardware to get extra value out of it, price drops might not even happen considering game pass deals.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PooBone

//DEVIL//

Member
May 28, 2014
1,877
828
580
Funny that your son can play Minecraft and Fortnite RIGHT NOW. You can get a 2nd hand Xbox One S for way cheaper than $300. Alternately he can play on a 2nd hand PS4 so that he doesn't even need to pay for PS+ in order to access Fortnite.

Why haven't you bought it yet? What are you waiting for? A ten-year-old doesn't need a next-gen machine, certainly, he doesn't need it for Gamepass. Everything you just described can already happen on a 2nd hand vanilla Xbox One. Why would you pay $300 for the privilege when $150 would do?
He was using my Xbox one X because I wasn't playing it. but I figured I would sell it and I did for 320$ US. it made more sense for me to give him a series S over Xbox one X. even If I had to pay more. simply because after 2021 the one X won't get supported. since MS will only give the One 2021 for ported games.

as to why the game pass? because I don't want to buy games for him. he is moody. one minute he wanna play fortnight, the other he wants to play Forza horizon. and I still need Gold to play online. so 10$ a month is not so bad.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
1,435
1,166
1,555
They discontinued XB1X, but not XB1S, which sould continue being sold next to Series S and X. MS also said that their games for a couple of years will be crossgen, so I assume that they will wait until then to discontinue XB1S.
Outside of Halo Infinite what MS developed titles will be hitting X1 in the next couple of years?
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: osiris_128bits

Kumomeme

Member
Mar 20, 2017
1,272
1,177
450
Malaysia
More work equals more paychecks.
i doubt it be that simple or it be same everywhere. especially for those smaller studios.

and lot of devs out there already burdened with lot of work, (those crunch complain for years) and sometimes, paycheck is not always solution. thats why there lot of situation where former AAA devs just joined indie studio later. all for a reason. devs still a human not a vending machine.
 
Last edited:

yurinka

Member
Jan 19, 2007
10,952
1,759
1,520
Barcelona, Spain
www.capcom-town.es
Outside of Halo Infinite what MS developed titles will be hitting X1 in the next couple of years?
Regarding the big AAAs, for the next couple of years as I remember they only have the next gen only games Deathloop and Ghostwire: Tokyo, which have console exclusive with PS5. The other MS big AAA don't have release year and many of them don't have the XBO logo on their web or recent trailers/aren't listed as crossgen, so would match with what MS said about not releasing next gen only games during a couple of years.

I don't remember the list right now, but MS had several crossgen indies/AA published by them listed for this and next year.
 

Yselacrey00

Formerly 'Andrei90'
Nov 20, 2018
77
137
365
We really didn't need Phil to tell us this. But it should be less work than developing for 2 consoles from different ecosystems.
Some people did need to hear it from Phill. They always use the pc example, which is a really bad one. On pc you don't have to make your game run on specific requirements. You just take stuff out of the game, some effects here and there and see which machine is capable of running the game, there's not a fixated minimum. On xbox you have to make sure that your game can run on the S, that's the difference, that's why series S limits what a Dev can and cannot do.