• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hi Guest. We've rebooted and consolidated our Communities section, so be sure to check it out and subscribe to some threads. Thanks!

Phil Spencer: "I know we have to take risks [after Scalebound cancellation],"

Majukun

Member
Jun 19, 2009
11,744
77
830
Not to mention, Sony used that time to create and foster a serie of studios and 1st party IP on the PS1 and PS2 era.
not really... the 360 had a lot of success in the first part of last gen because they were buying exclusives, meanwhile Sony was struggling because they suddenly lost all the exclusive games they didn't have to work for during the PS1 and PS2 era. they were the market leader, so all the titles naturally came on sony's consoles.

things changed when hirai substituted kutaragi at the helm of the brand... he completely restructured sony's first party production, not without its fair share of game canceling action... but he got the job done, he made Sony an efficient and diversified gaming machine... something that Microsoft has not being able to do.
 
Shenmue 3 was a risk that they were offered first before Sony, and that seemingly backfired, at least from a PR standpoint regardless of what profits that series may or may not bring.

Doesn't sound like they are picking their "risks" quite well, or at least Armthorpe following through with faith.
 

Papacheeks

Junior Member
Jan 30, 2013
5,354
2
385
Watertown, NY
This always happens. Anytime a company makes a misstep, unrelated discussion becomes completely derailed by warriors trying to pile on. However, it does seem like there are many more warriors standing by to pile on when it comes to Microsoft.

Maybe blame the internet for making this kind of discourse (unrelated, drive by shitposts) too easy, or maybe its just gaming culture. I'm leaning toward the former, because I don't think this behavior is exclusive to gaming.
Yup, you got us, were just all a bunch of shit posters talking about a game division many of use to love and how it's been slowly devolving into something we dont like. And yes your right talking about a game getting cancelled by a publisher who cancelled other games recently and having a studio with a big legacy go under and cancelling a game revival/sequel and disbanding a studio that people were excited for is just all of us shit posting.

We can close the thread now guys we seem to have done nothing but damage the internet with no good discussion.

We all good fam.
 

Lime

Member
Apr 27, 2008
26,894
0
0
Or like how the next Uncharted game will feature a girl this time
Having not one, but two female protagonists (with one being South African, another half-Indian) headlining a major AAA production is in the context of sexist executive decision-making and their misogynistic assumptions about audiences pretty risky compared to the eleventh iteration of military dude in green armor shooting aliens.

Thank god that someone is willing to do anything mildly new, because the constant factory line of Halos and Microsoft's inept reliance on it is completely and utterly creatively bankrupt.
 

CCIE

Banned
Oct 17, 2013
2,727
0
0
Scorpio will have niche success, and Halo, Halo Wars, Forza, etc to drive sales with the XBox population. That is enough for 95% of the fanbase from what I have seen. GAF is great, but not representative of gaming trends as a whole.

Remember, most XBox buyers love CoD.
 

Ricky Ricardo

Member
Apr 20, 2014
5,200
0
320
ATL, GA (USA)
Do you think there would be less outrage if we hadn't seen the game first, and if Microsoft hadn't cancelled Fable legends, Phantom Dust and closed down project spark, and said no to sequels to sunset overdrive, keeping titanfall on xbox, or making a ryse sequel?

Because it's a culmination of seeing fable and the studio that created it die just this past year, along with phantom dust prior getting canned and the developer disbanded. Scalebound was one of the last early announced titles that people have been waiting on. And it was just the boiling point that people have had it with so far how xbox has been axing games, and also not directly but closing studios.
IIRC, MS wanted Ryse 2, Crytek wasn't interested in continuing their partnership.

To address your larger point, I'm not saying outrage isn't justified. But I am saying that some of it is not legitimate. I hope I'm not being obtuse here, but I'm trying to lay it out as best I can.

Again, there are people who are upset because Scalebound represented a unique project for Microsoft from a famed director and a developer with certain pedigree, so it's cancellation is, like you said, the straw that broke the camel's back. AND on top of that, it leads to pointed questions about the future of the Xbox brand with so little creative output beyond established franchises like Gears of War, Halo, or Forza Motorsports. We've had and are still having meaningful, well argued discussions about these topics.

Then we have people coming into unrelated topics, like the Sea of Thieves or Halo Wars 2 threads and making cancellation jokes, we have folk trying to reverse history and paint Don Mattrick as some sort of champion of the brand, this is the kind of stuff that demonstrates that all the hub-bub is not completely genuine.

Again, there's a lot of honest discouragement and/or concern and then, there's a lot of useless noise from people who should know better and don't care or people who just aren't clued in to the nuances responsible for the situations revolving around MS and Xbox.
 

PandaShake

Member
Apr 2, 2014
1,591
0
0
Not the best pr speak. As others have said, continuing support is the risk. Quitting and cutting your losses is risk aversion.
 
Oct 7, 2014
317
0
230
Lynchburg, VA
One of the only games that would have convinced me to move to Windows 10 to play, and they go and cancel it for no publicly known reason, with people saying that it was Microsoft that poisoned the water. Now we get platitudes and reassurances from Spencer saying they'll "still take risks". Yeah, ok Spencer, keep telling yourself that.

Another year, another reason not upgrade. Oh well.
 

onemanasylum

Banned
Aug 12, 2016
2,955
0
0
Canada
IIRC, MS wanted Ryse 2, Crytek wasn't interested in continuing their partnership.

To address your larger point, I'm not saying outrage isn't justified. But I am saying that some of it is not legitimate. I hope I'm not being obtuse here, but I'm trying to lay it out as best I can.

Again, there are people who are upset because Scalebound represented a unique project for Microsoft from a famed director and a developer with certain pedigree, so it's cancellation is, like you said, the straw that broke the camel's back. AND on top of that, it leads to pointed questions about the future of the Xbox brand with so little creative output beyond established franchises like Gears of War, Halo, or Forza Motorsports. We've had and are still having meaningful, well argued discussions about these topics.

Then we have people coming into unrelated topics, like the Sea of Thieves or Halo Wars 2 threads and making cancellation jokes, we have folk trying to reverse history and paint Don Mattrick as some sort of champion of the brand, this is the kind of stuff that demonstrates that all the hub-bub is not completely genuine.

Again, there's a lot of honest discouragement and/or concern and then, there's a lot of useless noise from people who should know better and don't care or people who just aren't clued in to the nuances responsible for the situations revolving around MS and Xbox.
This happens in every thread on both sides, no point complaining about it.
 

Papacheeks

Junior Member
Jan 30, 2013
5,354
2
385
Watertown, NY
Scorpio will have niche success, and Halo, Halo Wars, Forza, etc to drive sales with the XBox population. That is enough for 95% of the fanbase from what I have seen. GAF is great, but not representative of gaming trends as a whole.

Remember, most XBox buyers love CoD.
But that's the thing they are not driving sales currently. Halo 5 under performed, so did Gears 4 by a larger margin and I want to say Forza has slowly been shrinking now growing.

Games like Uncharted and niche games like Bloodborne have shown first party and exclusive third party can sell consoles.
 
Aug 11, 2016
2,298
4
230
If I were MS I would start a female lead game studio focusing on creating diverse games. They need to create more games for girls to bring in more gamers and expand the audience.
 

dreamfall

Member
Sep 27, 2009
11,611
0
710
d.c. baby!
www.neogaf.com
Damn.

It's a lot to ask the man to do better, but the cancellation is truly saddening. He turned a lot of the crazy pricing/Kinect/online disaster, but this stung. I'd really like to know what exclusives they have lined up. BC has been a god send but justifying Scorpio is getting harder and harder.
 

shinobi602

Member
Sep 28, 2010
33,557
3
0
www.twitter.com
I like Phil overall but I feel like this continues to happen. Our very own MH Williams put up an article going over all the things announced in 2014 that have all but been axed: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/revisiting-xbox-e3-2014-remembering-the-dead

I almost forgot how much.

Every time this happens, fans start questioning him and the platform's direction, Phil gives the standard reply "we're committed to games and first party", and then you get the "Ok, phew, thanks Phil!" though that seems to be waning now.

Thing is, you need to allow your teams to branch out and take risks creatively. That's how you grow a brand and ecosystem and new fan bases. This has nothing to do with console war bs, but Sony does this and it's evident. One of their flagship studios known for first person shooters was allowed to take 5 years to build a post apocalyptic open world RPG with a female lead and robot dinosaurs. Another studio (Sony Santa Monica), even though its initial new IP failed, was allowed to radically revamp one of their biggest and most beloved franchises (God of War). Both huge risks. Sucker Punch is on a new IP. Bend is on a new IP, etc. Naughty Dog took time to develop a new IP that's arguably their biggest yet. That's how these become successful franchises.

Besides Rare, which is basically their new IP testbed though relegated to service driven games, Turn 10 works on Forza, Black Tusk was transformed into a Gears factory, 343 is relegated to Halo...it's just tired at this point. To me anyway, even though I still enjoy those series a lot. I want Xbox around forever. I was there day one with my OG Xbox and fell mad in love with Halo, but damn...give us new and exciting things man. I mean nurturing internal first party talent, not signing more deals that don't go anywhere.
 

CCIE

Banned
Oct 17, 2013
2,727
0
0
I agree games like Uncharted drive console sales. But as some have said earlier, those kind of games take time. Time that MS isn't really willing to put in when their studios can continue to pump out Halo clones and Forza in short order.

Ms is not like Sony, and never will be. They are more of a multiplayer kind of company looking for the next big thing.
 

Bsigg12

Member
Apr 9, 2012
20,743
2
0
Not the best pr speak. As others have said, continuing support is the risk. Quitting and cutting your losses is risk aversion.
It was 3 years of development that wasn't where it needed to be. Spending more money on a game that hadn't shown well publicly and sounds like it was in development hell seems like a bad business decision.
 

Ricky Ricardo

Member
Apr 20, 2014
5,200
0
320
ATL, GA (USA)
This happens in every thread on both sides, no point complaining about it.
I'm not complaining, I'm addressing the notion that those complaining are simply upset for obvious reasons. The "both sides" redirect is meaningless because, depending on what is popular, some side always receives more scrutiny. It was true when the Xbox 360 was the GAF darling, and its true now.

After spending all the time I have on N4G and this forum, it's not like I expect any better.

I'm just here to lend my voice to a more deliberate discussion, while pointing out some discrepancies.
 

_Clash_

Member
Jan 9, 2013
2,078
0
0
For me,

RIP XBOX gaming, I'll keep the actual box around but it's forever different now. Scorpio is DOA IMO
 

Papacheeks

Junior Member
Jan 30, 2013
5,354
2
385
Watertown, NY
IIRC, MS wanted Ryse 2, Crytek wasn't interested in continuing their partnership.

To address your larger point, I'm not saying outrage isn't justified. But I am saying that some of it is not legitimate. I hope I'm not being obtuse here, but I'm trying to lay it out as best I can.

Again, there are people who are upset because Scalebound represented a unique project for Microsoft from a famed director and a developer with certain pedigree, so it's cancellation is, like you said, the straw that broke the camel's back. AND on top of that, it leads to pointed questions about the future of the Xbox brand with so little creative output beyond established franchises like Gears of War, Halo, or Forza Motorsports. We've had and are still having meaningful, well argued discussions about these topics.

Then we have people coming into unrelated topics, like the Sea of Thieves or Halo Wars 2 threads and making cancellation jokes, we have folk trying to reverse history and paint Don Mattrick as some sort of champion of the brand, this is the kind of stuff that demonstrates that all the hub-bub is not completely genuine.

Again, there's a lot of honest discouragement and/or concern and then, there's a lot of useless noise from people who should know better and don't care or people who just aren't clued in to the nuances responsible for the situations revolving around MS and Xbox.
Then complain to a mod, the rest of us having civil good discussion will continue on in this thread. If those people's comments really are being disruptive then put them on ignore and tell a mod. Usually that gets dealt with.

I mean there are people in here saying what your talking about, but they are being ignored at least I'm ignoring them.
 

onemanasylum

Banned
Aug 12, 2016
2,955
0
0
Canada
I like Phil overall but I feel like this continues to happen. Our very own MH Williams put up an article going over all the things announced in 2014 that have all but been axed: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/revisiting-xbox-e3-2014-remembering-the-dead

I almost forgot how much.

Every time this happens, fans start questioning him and the platform's direction, Phil gives the standard reply "we're committed to games and first party", and then you get the "Ok, phew, thanks Phil!" though that seems to be waning now.

Thing is, you need to allow your teams to branch out and take risks creatively. That's how you grow a brand and ecosystem and new fan bases. This has nothing to do with console war bs, but Sony does this and it's evident. One of their flagship studios known for first person shooters was allowed to take 5 years to build a post apocalyptic open world RPG with a female lead and robot dinosaurs. Another studio (Sony Santa Monica), even though its initial new IP failed, was allowed to radically revamp one of their biggest and most beloved franchises (God of War). Both huge risks. Sucker Punch is on a new IP. Bend is on a new IP, etc. Naughty Dog took time to develop a new IP that's arguably their biggest yet. That's how these become successful franchises.

Besides Rare, which is basically their new IP testbed though relegated to service driven games, Turn 10 works on Forza, Black Tusk was transformed into a Gears factory, 343 is relegated to Halo...it's just tired at this point. To me anyway, even though I still enjoy those series a lot.
Great post, and I'd like to add, Sony understands sometimes i takes time to build a franchise, UC1 did what at launch? Pretty low sales, look at it now, they stuck with it because they believed in ND and the franchise. Would MS? Doubtful.
 
Jun 18, 2015
5,025
0
0
If Phil put a team on Viva Piñata 3 I would forgive him immensely.
Please Phil people want that game it's addictive as hell. :(
 

PandaShake

Member
Apr 2, 2014
1,591
0
0
It was 3 years of development that wasn't where it needed to be. Spending more money on a game that hadn't shown well publicly and sounds like it was in development hell seems like a bad business decision.
I'm not debating the decision, but the contextual use of the word risk. Like the last guardian, continuing for so long is a risky decision.
 

Cess007

Member
Nov 22, 2012
6,495
0
0
Mexicali // Mexico
not really... the 360 had a lot of success in the first part of last gen because they were buying exclusives, meanwhile Sony was struggling because they suddenly lost all the exclusive games they didn't have to work for during the PS1 and PS2 era. they were the market leader, so all the titles naturally came on sony's consoles.

things changed when hirai substituted kutaragi at the helm of the brand... he completely restructured sony's first party production, not without its fair share of game canceling action... but he got the job done, he made Sony an efficient and diversified gaming machine... something that Microsoft has not being able to do.
But that's the point. When hard times hit, Sony lost almost all 3rd party exclusives, but they still had their IPs, relationships and Studios created and bought from the PS1/2 era to fall back: Warhawk, Naughty Dog, Gran Turismo, Sucker Punch, Wipeout, Guerrilla, Evolution, etc. (and almost all bought studios created a new IP on the PS3: Uncharted, Infamous, Motorstorm)

That's what MS should have invested at the height of the success of the 360.
 

timberger

Member
Mar 12, 2016
1,336
31
250
I don't trust him. Doubt I'll trust anything from MS again until they announce an interesting game that actually makes it to market again.
 

Dash_Riprock

Member
Sep 12, 2015
9,353
0
305
I agree games like Uncharted drive console sales. But as some have said earlier, those kind of games take time. Time that MS isn't really willing to put in when their studios can continue to pump out Halo clones and Forza in short order.

Ms is not like Sony, and never will be. They are more of a multiplayer kind of company looking for the next big thing.
The biggest problem is that gaming is no where near as important to MS as it is to Sony. MS could (and has) loose billions on the Xbox brand, maybe even can it altogether, and it could be a drop in the bucket compared to their other divisions. Meanwhile the PS brand is the only part of Sony thats doing well, and has been for some time.
 

messiaen

Member
May 10, 2015
597
0
0
I think Sony having Sony Pictures and Sony Music Entertainment has helped them a lot with dealing with creative types, fostering studios and creative talent. Saying they are no different is a little off I think. Look at Bungie and Microsoft. Literally couldn't get along so they had to part ways. I don't think that kind of dysfunction would happen under Sony. Especially with their top studio. I think it just comes down to management and overall disbelief in gaming within the high offices at Microsoft.

Edit: Man I just find it so weird how Bungie and Microsoft couldn't get along creatively but they both have kind of arrived at the same conclusion of long running service type games with expansions and micro transactions. Kind of nuts.
From my experience, there's little difference between businessmen that have worked in the industry for decades and ones that haven't. There is no super art friendly corporation. There are good and bad producers but that's it, really... And everyone has good and bad producers. No company is different from the other. This sentiment is really silly.
 

onemanasylum

Banned
Aug 12, 2016
2,955
0
0
Canada
The biggest problem is that gaming is no where near as important to MS as it is to Sony. MS could (and has) loose billions on the Xbox brand, maybe even can it altogether, and it could be a drop in the bucket compared to their other divisions. Meanwhile the PS brand is the only part of Sony thats doing well, and has been for some time.
Man, this is flat false, Sony has been doing well in its other divisions for a few years now. Playstation is not even their most profitable.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Feb 5, 2013
4,061
85
485
lol this is Phil's specialty. say all the right things to get the fanboys on his side and forget about all the shitty things he's done. 'Looks guys, i totally know what you guys are saying! i am just like you, please believe me. please believe me.'

I shat on this guy just last month in the X1 4k ads thread and a lot of folks got butthurt by my frank choice of words. But he's proved that he's deserving of it. there is one thing to cancel the game and then another to pretend that he wants to take risks and fund risky and innovate projects. no you dont. you just want to buy exclusives just to keep them off the PS4. you did that with titanfall and nearly killed the franchise in the process. you did it with tomb raider and again nearly killed the franchise. he's cancelled games he advertised at multiple trade shows keeping everyone unhappy with their X1 thinking the good times are just a few years away. he forced black tusk to cancel their new IP after unveiling it and made them make another gears of war game.

Don Mattrick was a douche but at least he never pretended that he wasnt. Phill is worse because he wants to be authentic and make fanboys think that he really gets them, but he doesnt get shit. he cuts and run anytime a game doesnt perform or get good critical reception. Sunset was a fantastic game but he let insomniac go away and now they are making marvel. Ryse was pretty terrible but it was to be expected given how it was a Kinect only title for nearly half of its development. he didnt give it a extra year and shipped a shell of a game. then instead of fixing the issues and creating a franchise, he didnt fund a sequel and now they are going out of business.

Imagine if Sony had seen the first months NA sales of Uncharted (111k) and Ratchet PS3 (79k) and said nah, we dont see any potential here. lets make more jak and daxter!
 

onemanasylum

Banned
Aug 12, 2016
2,955
0
0
Canada
From my experience, there's little difference between businessmen that have worked in the industry for decades and ones that haven't. There is no super art friendly corporation. There are good and bad producers but that's it, really... And everyone has good and bad producers. No company is different from the other. This sentiment is really silly.
Totally false, one companies culture can be drastically different then the other, I have worked at them, and it's night and day, saying they are all the same is silly.
 

CCIE

Banned
Oct 17, 2013
2,727
0
0
That is the big difference. MS tries to "buy" a new IP through exclusive deals like those signed with Platinum, Insomniac, etc... Their own internal studios are not allowed to do anything else but Halo, Gears, and Forza for the most part. Now, Rare was given the opportunity to do something different, but they are the exception.


I truly hope it pays off for Rare...
 

messiaen

Member
May 10, 2015
597
0
0
Totally false, one companies culture can be drastically different then the other, I have worked at them, and it's night and day, saying they are all the same is silly.
I have too and it really depends on the people you work with within them.
 

robotrock

Banned
Feb 28, 2010
26,206
2
0
Then you'll fall for another trap.

You'll like the game but it'll never get a sequel.
That's not really a problem?

I'm bummed we never will get Sunset Overdrive 2. But in light of all this other news about Microsoft, I'm actually just incredibly happy and thankful that we got the first Sunset Overdrive in the form that we did.

Plus, I know I have always known it was a fool's game to expect Platinum to actually get a chance to make a sequel to any of their games.
 
Sep 2, 2012
3,021
0
495
Canada
I like Phil overall but I feel like this continues to happen. Our very own MH Williams put up an article going over all the things announced in 2014 that have all but been axed: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/revisiting-xbox-e3-2014-remembering-the-dead

I almost forgot how much.

Every time this happens, fans start questioning him and the platform's direction, Phil gives the standard reply "we're committed to games and first party", and then you get the "Ok, phew, thanks Phil!" though that seems to be waning now.

Thing is, you need to allow your teams to branch out and take risks creatively. That's how you grow a brand and ecosystem and new fan bases. This has nothing to do with console war bs, but Sony does this and it's evident. One of their flagship studios known for first person shooters was allowed to take 5 years to build a post apocalyptic open world RPG with a female lead and robot dinosaurs. Another studio (Sony Santa Monica), even though its initial new IP failed, was allowed to radically revamp one of their biggest and most beloved franchises (God of War). Both huge risks. Sucker Punch is on a new IP. Bend is on a new IP, etc. Naughty Dog took time to develop a new IP that's arguably their biggest yet. That's how these become successful franchises.

Besides Rare, which is basically their new IP testbed though relegated to service driven games, Turn 10 works on Forza, Black Tusk was transformed into a Gears factory, 343 is relegated to Halo...it's just tired at this point. To me anyway, even though I still enjoy those series a lot. I want Xbox around forever. I was there day one with my OG Xbox and fell mad in love with Halo, but damn...give us new and exciting things man. I mean nurturing internal first party talent, not signing more deals that don't go anywhere.
How much do you think it has to do with pressure from higher-ups at MS?
 

CCIE

Banned
Oct 17, 2013
2,727
0
0
Have to agree. Having worked with MS in my current job, I told them politely to pound sand when they attempted to hire me. I've seen enough about how they work.
 

odhiex

Member
Dec 15, 2008
1,346
46
850
Jakarta, Indonesia
twitter.com
To be honest, that is really weak excuses, I expect more from him.

Scalebound is not some little game that has just been cancelled, it is actually one of their (MS) biggest New IP that many fans being excited about.
 

Seiryoden

Member
Jun 25, 2016
731
1
0
SUPER DISCLAIMER: Not all of these games are X360 exclusives.

These were the first ones on the shelf, Halo and Gears are at the back of the wardrobe.



So many great exclusives.