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Phil Spencer: The mega-interview on Project Scarlett, PC Gaming and more (PC Games Hardware Germany)

CyberPanda

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German website PC Games Hardware sat down with Phil Spencer and had a good interview, enjoy. (Translated with Google)

Phil Spencer made an exceptional career with Microsoft: In 1988, he joined the company as a 20-year intern, since 2014, he led, among others, the Xbox and Xbox live teams and Microsoft Studios. Since 2017, he has been named executive vice president of gaming for his Xbox and PC gaming employer, with only Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella in charge.

We talked to Phil Spencer about Microsoft's plans for consoles and PCs at Los Angeles's E3 2019, emulating previous generations of consoles, why Xbox and Windows PC remain separate systems, and why an SSD at a game console is responsible for more than just faster loading is.

Phil Spencer: Well, how did you like our press conference?

PC Games Hardware: Great! But where Sony was not there: Why did you present no less than the 60 games shown, but in more detail, with more gameplay instead of render movies and trailers?

Phil Spencer: Funnily, our goal was not to show as many games as possible. We considered which topics we would like to cover at the press conference. The Game Pass was a big topic, first-party games were another - 14 in-house developments, twelve of which will be released next year, there have never been so many. Then there are PC games, keyword PC Game Pass, then xCloud and Scarlett.

➤ PC Games Hardware: And the new Elite Controller ...

Phil Spencer: ... and the new Elite controller, right. A lot of content. Add to that many topics that people want to see more about - Age of Empires 4. And many more we have not even talked about yet. For example, what our Studio The Initiative is doing right now. Or the second team of Playground Games (Forza). What are Rare, Turn 10 and Compulsion? But when a press conference lasts more than 90 minutes, people get a bit worried.

➤ PC Games Hardware: Okay, nobody can blame you for a lack of content. But to get back to the point gameplay instead of trailer ...

Phil Spencer: We opened with Outer Worlds - Gameplay. Second Game: Bleeding Edge - Gameplay, followed by Ori - Gameplay. Game Number Four: Minecraft Dungeons - Gameplay. Halo? Well, that will not happen until 2020. And sure, personally I would have liked to see gameplay of all games.

➤ PC Games Hardware: At previous E3 events, developers were on stage to play live.

Phil Spencer: But usually not 18 months before release! And now without entering into a debate with the Internet: The fans wanted to see gameplay of Gears 5. But because Rod Fergusson (studio chief of developer The Coalition) did not play a campaign on stage, they say there was no gameplay?

Anyway, people on stage? At home in the stream, the vast majority of viewers only see the screen-filling game anyway. This does not mean that it is not good feedback that players want to see something of the campaign of a game that appears three months after the E3. I understand that completely.

➤ PC Games Hardware: Before we forget it: Hurray for the Flight Simulator!

Phil Spencer: Yeah! And how great did he look like? Two petabytes of big map material assembled over the Azure AI. And that was also gameplay!


"The new Flight Simulator will be the game, with which you can bring a new graphics card to its limits as before."


➤ PC Games Hardware:
When did you decide to have him removed ?

Phil Spencer: My colleague Shannon Loftis and Matt Booty had been buzzing the idea for a couple of years. With an external developer named Sobo, we then considered whether and how we could combine the Bing maps with current weather data in real time. I'm not a pilot myself, but Flight Simulator was the game that brought a new graphics card to its limits. And with the new version we wanted to do that once more.

➤ PC Games Hardware: Many of our readers are already getting their aircraft controllers from the attic ...

Phil Spencer: We would not have imagined that the Flight Simulator would be celebrating its premiere at an E3 press conference. But it was perfect: We announce the PC Game Pass and the Game Pass Ultimate, followed by the Trio Flight Simulator, Age of Empires 2 and Wasteland 3. A sign that we are reaping the trust of PC gamers and the PC Really want to show community that we're not just porting console titles to the pc.


"We really want to show the PC community that we are not just porting console titles to the PC."


➤ PC Games Hardware:
Keyword Emulation: The team at Microsoft responsible for emulating Xbox and Xbox 360 games for the Xbox One is already in the making of Xbox One games ready for its successor, Scarlett , Would not it be great to get compatibility with more than just a previous generation?

Phil Spencer: The cool thing about the Xbox One compatibility of previous titles is that the games not only run, but also better. We're not talking about it that often, but the fact is, future hardware will make earlier-generation games look better and play better. We have seen this on the PC for quite some time, but bringing something to the console storage was a real sense of achievement. For example, there was recently 4K support for Xbox 360 games like cameo.

For Project Scarlett's design, we've made sure that games emulated today on the Xbox One will continue to work in the future. In other words, Xbox and Xbox 360 titles running on an Xbox One today also work on Scarlett. And our goal is that all Xbox One games are playable on Scarlett as well. Oh, and your Xbox One or Elite controllers will work with the next generation too.

➤ PC Games Hardware: That would mean that Project Scarlett's announced quad performance could be used to make even Xbox One titles look better?

Phil Spencer: That's where you hit the nail on the head - that's why we want the team working on the Xbox One to do it with Scarlett. Because its members are not satisfied when an old game runs on a new console - but ask each title: Can we build the best possible version? They did not do that for all 360 games, and sometimes they had to work overtime to get them at the same frame rate. Compatibility is not an easy task, but I'm convinced we have the best compatibility team in the world.

➤ PC Games Hardware: You may say that a little more loudly, because for many players this is an important decision criterion.

Phil Spencer: Sure. That's a bit like xCloud. I hear from some journalists that I did not say enough about it on stage. But my point is, I've been showing enough videos, now is the time to put it in people's hands so they can write about their experiences. Also questions like "What bandwidth do I need?" and so on - they are beautiful and good. But if someone has tried xCloud and flashed the experience, then he will say, "I really want that, what do I have to do for it?"

➤ PC Games Hardware: Back to Project Scarlett: If we look at the hardware, your next console looks like a modern high-end PC. At the same time, Microsoft is using Windows 10 and the Xbox OS double-tracked. Would not it make sense to summarize the two?

Phil Spencer: Unlike the Xbox OS, Windows 10 needs to cover countless features and applications. Nobody will connect a ten-year-old printer to his Xbox via USB and expect them to talk to each other. However, one huge part of the task of the Windows team is to make sure legacy hardware and software are supported. But we do not have to support an Xbox console the same way. Sure, games have to run, but dot matrix printers and plotters? (laughs) We cleaned up this program code superstructure on the Xbox, even if we share some things with Windows.


"The ability to directly provide CPU and GPU with data through the SSD will enable the creation of game worlds that will not only be richer, but also more seamless."


➤ PC Games Hardware:
That's what my question was about: A developer who develops for PC and Xbox is happy if he can use the same APIs and does not have to invent the wheel twice.

Phil Spencer: This is our long-term goal, a project called GameCore. If a developer programs Win32 games today, he will find the API interface of our next SDK very familiar, allowing him to keep as many program lines as possible on both platforms. This is of course different from the OS instantiating the APIs, for example, we do not have to worry about enterprise features.

GameCore beats the trail to the origin of the Xbox name: The console was called that because it sits on DirectX and facilitates the development of games, if you can already program for the PC. Over time, both platforms have moved a little bit apart, but with GameCore we have a chance to bring them closer together again.

➤ PC Games Hardware: By default, Project Scarlett will have an SSD. This ensures as with the PC for shorter load times, no question. But how could game developers use that for their titles? For PCs, they can not build on it automatically, because in some cases even traditional hard drives stuck.

Phil Spencer: Thanks to their speed, developers can now practically use the SSD as Virtual RAM. The access times of the SSD approach the memory access times of the current generation of consoles. Of course, the OS has to allow the developers appropriate access that goes beyond that of a pure storage medium. But then we will see how the address space will increase immensely - comparable to the change from Win16 to Win32 or in some cases Win64.
Of course, the SSD will still be slower than the GDDR6 RAM sitting directly on the die. But the ability to directly supply CPU and GPU via the SSD will allow for the creation of game worlds that will not only be richer, but more seamless as well. Not only in terms of pure loading times, but also in terrain mapping. A graphic designer no longer has to worry about when GDDR6 ends and when the SSD starts. I like the fact that Mark Cerny and his team are also investing in an SSD at Sony for the PlayStation 5 ...

➤ PC Games Hardware: ... the manufacturers of multiplatform games, too.

Phil Spencer: That's right! And the engines and tools can implement appropriate functions. Together, we will provide a larger installed base - and developers will do their utmost to master and support the programming of these hardware capabilities. While I do not have a PS5 development kit, I do not think our Minecraft team even has that. But it will be exciting to see how the industry will benefit from the overarching deployment of such solutions.

➤ PC Games Hardware: Does the already mentioned statement 4x relate to the performance of the complete console?

Phil Spencer: No, that's a pure CPU statement. It would also be a little too simplistic to refer to the whole system, as much as I would like to, because so many components flow into it. Take the Xbox One X: In its development, the memory bandwidth was the bottleneck. It had to be big enough to provide content to the GPU without idle time. We could have brought the console to market a year earlier, but we waited another year to get all 6 of the GPU's TFLOPS up and running.

Our primary goal with Scarlett was to improve the graphics capabilities and GPU of the console. Primarily because another goal was to integrate a CPU into the system that can compete with the GPU. Unlike PCs, consoles have historically been "arm-presses" with a strong arm - the GPU - and a weak arm - the CPU, which does nothing other than change frames calculated by the GPU as fast as possible, often with only a maximum of 30 fps.


"Our primary goal with Scarlett was to improve the graphics capabilities and GPU of the console."


Now we are talking about 120 Hertz or variable refresh rates. Because if the timing of the game loop - the core routines of a game - corresponds to the refresh rate, this reduces the input latency and thus ensures a smooth gaming experience. And that depends largely on the CPU and memory bandwidth. That's why you have to see a statement like "Scarlett is x times faster than Xbox One X" a bit more differentiated.

➤ PC Games Hardware: On a console, I can not run benchmarks very well and then compare Xbox 360, Xbox One X and Scarlett. Motto: If I overclock this core a bit, my console creates a few more frames per second.

Phil Spencer: That would be something, 3D Bench on the consoles. (laughs) But that's why we're on the PC. I love it when people put heart and soul into perfecting their gaming experience. For example, my gaming laptop still runs at 1080p, because a good frame rate is very important to me. I do not need a 4K screen. But that's just my personal taste. And sure, we support Scarlett 8K graphics, but we're not telling any developer to only make games with 8K graphics or only 4K graphics.

➤ PC Games Hardware: Who has an 8K TV at home today?

Phil Spencer: Exactly. Scarlett supports 120 Hertz or variable refresh rates and 8K. But will we see games in 120 Hertz with 8K resolution? Sure, that would work, but then you have to do without other things while playing. Our job is to give the developers a range of tools and choices for players.
For example, if you have a 1080p TV today, the games look better on an Xbox One X connected to it, and super-sampling and co. But if you do not need it, you can buy an Xbox One S and save a few hundred dollars.
➤ PC Games Hardware: Funny, by the way, right before the Microsoft press conference, Intel ran its own press event, one of which was to continue producing the fastest CPU. But in all current consoles are chips from AMD.

Phil Spencer: Lisa Su and her AMD team did a great job. You play in a league above your own weight class, looking at market shares and stock price. And their chips are the backbone of Google's cloud - and they're in the near consoles of Sony and us.

I'm not saying anything against Intel and Nvidia - it's just amazing how AMD has held its own in the last five or six years. And it's good for everyone when several competitors spur each other on to innovation and excellence.

PC Games Hardware: Phil, thank you for the interesting conversation!

 
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DynamiteCop!

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8K, there goes that word again that neither MS or Sony are letting go of.

8K, 120FPS even. Just like a particular Gran Turismo demo that Sony showed off last year.

Maybe these consoles aren’t as weak as some would lead you to believe?
They are, that is just their theoretical ceiling. The GPU max resolution is 8k and the max output of the HDMI output is 120hz.

Both can theoretically be done but it would be limited to some smaller scope games like Terraria etc.
 

bitbydeath

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They are, that is just their theoretical ceiling. The GPU max resolution is 8k and the max output of the HDMI output is 120hz.

Both can theoretically be done but it would be limited to some smaller scope games like Terraria etc.

Racing games have never been too intensive either.

Even PS3 had GT running at 1080P, 60FPS
 

DynamiteCop!

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Racing games have never been too intensive either.

Even PS3 had GT running at 1080P, 60FPS
120hz is a feasibility in certain games which run at say 1080p on these consoles given the hypothetical specifications, 8K however in anything beyond simple 2D-esque rendering is not possible.

I have a Vega 64 which is basically the max performance ceiling these consoles will have and I can attempt to run anything you want at 8K and tell you how it performs, it's just not happening.
 

ethomaz

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Looks like a virus site... there is a page "One more step" with captcha before you could enter in the site lol

I never enter in these sites.
 
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bitbydeath

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120hz is a feasibility in certain games which run at say 1080p on these consoles given the hypothetical specifications, 8K however in anything beyond simple 2D-esque rendering is not possible.

I have a Vega 64 which is basically the max performance ceiling these consoles will have and I can attempt to run anything you want at 8K and tell you how it performs, it's just not happening.

I’m simply stating that the evidence is piling up that your assumptions of a Vega 64 max ceiling is incorrect.
 

ethomaz

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Yeap Quake without RT mod runs at 200fps :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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CyberPanda

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Looks like a virus site... there is a page "One more step" with captcha before you could enter in the site lol

I never enter in these sites.
You have malware on your computer, or adware. I recommend the malwarebytes program to remove it, and then try again. I was getting the same warning the other day and now it’s fixed.
 

bitbydeath

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Uh, what evidence? Everything is pointing to that being the absolute compute ceiling.

The evidence of 8K being mentioned numerous times, plus a demo of it in action.

An easy way to measure expectations: can your Vega 64 achieve 4K 120FPS in VR with a AAA title?

If the answer is no then it’s obviously going to be more powerful than that.
 

//DEVIL//

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lol at 8k.

you will be lucky if you get can get big games on 4k and 60 fps on ultra settings.

considering the Xbox X can run 4k from mid to high range settings on PC with 30 fps or lil above in the big games.

people this is a 500$ console + or -50$ . including box, ram, ssd, BR drive etc. for god sake don't get your hopes up.

it's really frustrating when people think its the second coming.

with that being said, I cant wait to watch how new exclusive games look. specially from sony studios and the new Halo in action.
 

DynamiteCop!

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The evidence of 8K being mentioned numerous times, plus a demo of it in action.

An easy way to measure expectations: can your Vega 64 achieve 4K 120FPS in VR with a AAA title?

If the answer is no then it’s obviously going to be more powerful than that.
Have you lost your mind?

Did they state anywhere that the 8K 120 FPS demo of GT Sport was running on a PlayStation 5 or even a devkit? Fuck no, it was a demonstration no doubt running on SLI 2080 Ti's.

Nothing can achieve 4K at 120 FPS in VR with a AAA title, where you're even getting that information is mind boggling.

I don't even know what to say to this, I mean it's that dumb. Hell the Vega 64 equivalent under Navi isn't even out yet and it's $450 MSRP on its own, wow....
 
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CyberPanda

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Again with the 8k? Honestly, for most games they should be aiming for 2k 60fps. But as usual these people can't help themselves.
It’s just PR dribble from both sides, theoretical peak or whatever. But, if they get a 8K game running, it will be like a game like Trine or something. Nothing too graphically intensive.
 

DynamiteCop!

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It’s just PR dribble from both sides, theoretical peak or whatever. But, if they get a 8K game running, it will be like a game like Trine or something. Nothing too graphically intensive.
The theoretical ceiling of my GPU is 8K and 240hz, can it do that? Yes, but in very, very specific instances of low demand games and most assuredly not in conjunction.
 

Journey

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8K, there goes that word again that neither MS or Sony are letting go of.

8K, 120FPS even. Just like a particular Gran Turismo demo that Sony showed off last year.

Maybe these consoles aren’t as weak as some would lead you to believe?


Also, don't forget BC. Playing Panzer Dragon Orta in 4K/60fps on Xbox One X is glorious!! Soon to be played in 8K/120fps with Scarlett :messenger_smiling_hearts:

 
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bitbydeath

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Have you lost your mind?

Did they state anywhere that the 8K 120 FPS demo of GT Sport was running on a PlayStation 5 or even a devkit? Fuck no, it was a demonstration no doubt running on SLI 2080 Ti's.

Nothing can achieve 4K at 120 FPS in VR with a AAA title, where you're even getting that information is mind boggling.

I don't even know what to say to this, I mean it's that dumb. Hell the Vega 64 equivalent under Navi isn't even out yet and it's $450 MSRP on its own, wow....

That’s why they call it next-gen, not current-gen+. :messenger_grinning_squinting:

VR isn’t even possible on PC with PS4 specs so it’s not a black and white conversion of numbers either.
 

DynamiteCop!

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That’s why they call it next-gen, not current-gen+. :messenger_grinning_squinting:

VR isn’t even possible on PC with PS4 specs so it’s not a black and white conversion of numbers either.
I'm sorry but you're threading the line right now.

First off we already understand AMD's GCN architecture like we've been studying it for years, because we have. We already know the level of IPC improvement that Navi and Zen 2 bring to the table and their relative performance to Polaris, Vega and Ryzen. We already know the price points for consumer hardware and we know the computational ceilings for all of this hardware.

Sony and Microsoft can't raise this ceiling beyond minor architectural customization, what they can however do is lower the floor. That's why VR is possible on the PS4, Sony lowered the floor not only graphically, they lowered it in terms of resolution and using interpolation to achieve faked higher framerates, they also push a lot on foveated rendering where it's a less common occurrence on PC.

Hoping for even a Vega 64 level card in either of these systems is a massive ask, and anything beyond it is a pure impossibility. Both systems will undoubtedly be based on an underclocked version of the RX 5700XT which will clock in at 8.75-9 Teraflops, and the CPU a low power variant of the 3700X with again lower clock speeds and likely no additional threads beyond its 8 cores.

Your expectations are simply ridiculous and there's no credence to them not only financially but also computationally.
 
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bitbydeath

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First off we already understand AMD's GCN architecture like we've been studying it for years

Next-gen isn’t using GCN.

We already know the price points for consumer hardware and we know the computational ceilings for all of this hardware.

We don’t know this yet and we’re still in the dark on what Navi 20 brings to the table. (The only card announced to support the already announced Ray Tracing)

Both systems will undoubtedly be based on an underclocked version of the RX 5700XT

RX5900 is used in Navi 20.

Your expectations are simply ridiculous and there's no credence to them not only financially but also computationally.

And your expecting hardware to be used that can’t run Ray Tracing.
 
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120hz is a feasibility in certain games which run at say 1080p on these consoles given the hypothetical specifications, 8K however in anything beyond simple 2D-esque rendering is not possible.

I have a Vega 64 which is basically the max performance ceiling these consoles will have and I can attempt to run anything you want at 8K and tell you how it performs, it's just not happening.

while i agree that these consoles wont do anything in 8k, comparing it to a vega 64 is incorrect to. Console optimization and ecosystem will be able to push graphics well beyond a pc with a similar gpu. just look what Ps4 has done on a 1.8tf chip. show me a
pc 1.8tf gpu with a jaguar cpu putting up similar iq
 

DynamiteCop!

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Next-gen isn’t using GCN.

We don’t know this yet and we’re still in the dark on what Navi 20 brings to the table. (The only card announced to support the already announced Ray Tracing)

RX5900 is used in Navi 20.



And your expecting hardware to be used that can’t run Ray Tracing.
Of course it is, these cards are not using "RDNA", it's GCN+RDNA, it's like GCN+. If you think you're getting Navi 20 in a console which probably won't launch until the middle of next year you're smoking some wild shit man.

In terms of Ray Tracing we don't even know what the implementation is, it could be custom, it could be consuming CU's, we don't know but to think it's going to be 7nm+ RDNA at least on Sony's side when they won't even confirm hardware acceleration is


You guys seem to throw cost out the window when you concoct these hypothetical hardware scenarios, these are $500 consoles man lol.

while i agree that these consoles wont do anything in 8k, comparing it to a vega 64 is incorrect to. Console optimization and ecosystem will be able to push graphics well beyond a pc with a similar gpu. just look what Ps4 has done on a 1.8tf chip. show me a
pc 1.8tf gpu with a jaguar cpu putting up similar iq
Go look up an HD 7850 and see how that performs, it's a near like for like but slightly weaker GPU than what is in the PS4 and see how it handles 1080p. Higher settings and with garbage CPU's it still manages better framerates.

This is all x86, there's no secret sauce bullshit anymore. It's PC hardware and it performs like PC hardware, we don't have custom tech anymore that has unexposed theoretical heights and API's like Mantle, DirectX 12 and Vulkan has exposed the bear metal limitations.
 

bitbydeath

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Of course it is, these cards are not using "RDNA", it's GCN+RDNA, it's like GCN+. If you think you're getting Navi 20 in a console which probably won't launch until the middle of next year you're smoking some wild shit man.

In terms of Ray Tracing we don't even know what the implementation is, it could be custom, it could be consuming CU's, we don't know but to think it's going to be 7nm+ RDNA at least on Sony's side when they won't even confirm hardware acceleration is
<img src="https://systemwars.net/bb/uploads/emoticons/ANYWORD.png" data-url="https://systemwars.net/bb/uploads/emoticons/ANYWORD.png" class="bbImage" data-zoom-target="1" alt="" style="" />

You guys seem to throw cost out the window when you concoct these hypothetical hardware scenarios, these are $500 consoles man lol.

It’ll be custom just like how the PS4 Pro had features from tech that wasn’t available on shelf. If Navi 20 isn’t featured you can bet whatever is in there will be a hybrid of it as it needs to be to support Ray Tracing.

I won’t go down the rabbit hole of what you think Sony has or hasn’t announced.
 

DynamiteCop!

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Why are you talking about this like it is fact?
Because at this point final specifications are already locked down and Navi in ANY regard let alone Navi 20 hasn't even come out to the consumer market yet.

We're not getting space-age technology in the x86 space, it's just not happening and it never will. Like they have they will continue to get 1 or 2 year late hand me downs from a company that is already a year behind their competition.

You people don't use your heads, you don't think of price, you don't think of TDP, you don't think of timeframes.

You throw all of that shit out the window and just spout nonsensical noise.

It’ll be custom just like how the PS4 Pro had features from tech that wasn’t available on shelf. If Navi 20 isn’t featured you can bet whatever is in there will be a hybrid of it as it needs to be to support Ray Tracing.

I won’t go down the rabbit hole of what you think Sony has or hasn’t announced.
Custom? It had Vega RPM added which is a proprietary feature set, that's not customization and it was leveraged in fuck all zero ways. To add to this it was added to a GPU which was computationally outdated by more than 3 years.

HELLO, ANYBODY HOME?
 
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TLZ

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Because at this point final specifications are already locked down and Navi in ANY regard let alone Navi 20 hasn't even come out to the consumer market yet.

We're not getting space-age technology in the x86 space, it's just not happening and it never will. Like they have they will continue to get 1 or 2 year late hand me downs from a company that is already a year behind their competition.

You people don't use your heads, you don't think of price, you don't think of TDP, you don't think of timeframes.

You throw all of that shit out the window and just spout nonsensical noise.
Calm down dude. Why angry? I'm taking what AMD officially said these cards will have, and it's RDNA. They never said GCN/RDNA hybrid. I don't have any reason to doubt them.
 
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bitbydeath

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Custom? It had Vega RPM added which is a proprietary feature set, that's not customization and it was leveraged in fuck all zero ways. To add to this it was added to a GPU which was computationally outdated by more than 3 years.

HELLO, ANYBODY HOME?

It’s OK to admit when you’re wrong. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

DynamiteCop!

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Calm down dude. Why angry? I'm taking what AMD officially said these cards will have, and it's RDNA. They never said GCN/RDNA hybrid. I don't have any reason to doubt them.
Because they're already calling their existing and soon to be released Navi cards "RDNA" and burying GCN in boring technical jabber when it's still a fundamental part of the architecture.

It’s OK to admit when you’re wrong. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Explain a single thing wrong with that sentence, one.
 

TLZ

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Because they're already calling their existing and soon to be released Navi cards "RDNA" and burying GCN in boring technical jabber when it's still a fundamental part of the architecture.
If you believe so, up to you. But at the time being, I'm going to stick with what they said. Proof will be in the pudding years later. Agree to disagree then.
 

DynamiteCop!

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If you believe so, up to you. But at the time being, I'm going to stick with what they said. Proof will be in the pudding years later. Agree to disagree then.
I believe facts, you should also.





^This is from 5700 line of cards...

"AMD Radeon RX 5700 Series With First Gen Navi Have a Hybrid RDNA and GCN Architecture, Next-Gen Navi ’20’ To Be Pure RDNA Based"

They're calling their GCN hybrid RDNA, they're trying to mask it but that's exactly what it is, it's still GCN.

You’re making a lot of assumptions and trying to convince yourself it is fact at the same time.

Could it release with Navi20?
It certainly could.
Navi 20 is going to be their high end line of cards to compete with the 2080, 2080 Ti and whatever lies slightly beyond that. This belief you have is just shrouded in ignorance.
 
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lynux3

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Because at this point final specifications are already locked down and Navi in ANY regard let alone Navi 20 hasn't even come out to the consumer market yet.
Seems to contradict your statements on other forums. When Andrew Reiner disclosed what he heard about next-gen PlayStation vs. Project Scarlett you were sure specifications weren't final.
 

bitbydeath

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Navi 20 is going to be their high end line of cards to compete with the 2080, 2080 Ti and whatever lies slightly beyond that. This belief you have is just shrouded in ignorance.

How else do you think they are going to meet their claims of 8K?
 
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DynamiteCop!

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Seems to contradict your statements on other forums. When Andrew Reiner disclosed what he heard about next-gen PlayStation vs. Project Scarlett you were sure specifications weren't final.
When talking about devkits? Absolutely, those wouldn't be final, they'd be hodgepodge of whatever hardware to get things running but having finalized targets has no bearing on what currently exists.

It still have to be engineered based upon a target, all of these insiders are chickens with their heads cut off and know absolutely dick about anything or else they'd be blabbing specifications. They're not under NDA, they have no legal recourse against them for sharing information in the event they actually had it, it's a bunch of bullshit.

How else do you think they are going to meet their claims of 8K?
By hitting it in some 2D games, Phil Spencer already talked about this shit in detail with Giantbomb. It's the ceiling for development on the platforms, it's something that can be targeted but obviously could only be done with limited rendering demands.

As stated I can do 8K right now, right this very second with my Vega 64, but the results are not going to be anything pretty in a modern game.
 
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lynux3

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Calm down dude. Why angry? I'm taking what AMD officially said these cards will have, and it's RDNA. They never said GCN/RDNA hybrid. I don't have any reason to doubt them.
The RDNA architecture has since been analyzed and confirmed it's really nothing like previous GCN.
 
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lynux3

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When talking about devkits? Absolutely, those wouldn't be final, they'd be hodgepodge of whatever hardware to get things running but having finalized targets has no bearing on what currently exists.
I agree devkits are no where near final form, but they are certainly built around the target specifications.
 

bitbydeath

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By hitting it in some 2D games, Phil Spencer already talked about this shit in detail with Giantbomb. It's the ceiling for development on the platforms, it's something that can be targeted but obviously could only be done with limited rendering demands.

As stated I can do 8K right now, right this very second with my Vega 64, but the results are not going to be anything pretty in a modern game.

I thinking you’re aiming too low.
If PS4 Pro and Xbox X can do 4K now then I think there is a really good chance we’ll see 8K BC games too. (As previously demoed with GT Sport which was said to be running off a PS5 devkit.)
 

DynamiteCop!

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I thinking you’re aiming too low.
If PS4 Pro and Xbox X can do 4K now then I think there is a really good chance we’ll see 8K BC games too. (As previously demoed with GT Sport which was said to be running off a PS5 devkit.)
First off the Pro can do almost nothing at native 4K outside of some edge cases with middling graphics or early generation level releases. The closest it gets in AAA games is like 2880x1620 and that's more on the high end, there's some extremely rare games where it can do 3200x1800.

The general operation of the system though is moreso around 2304x1296/2560x1440 - 1920x2160 (checkerboarded).

The Xbox One X has quite a few native 4K AAA games but it's more the exception than the rule. You get quite a lot of 3200x1800 - 3440x1920 games and ones with dynamic resolution that tops out at native 4K. It's not quite a native 4K machine but it's extremely close.

GT Sport on the Pro is rendering at 1600x1800 (2,880,000 pixels), to get that to 8K assuming linear compute scaling you would need a GPU which is 11.52x more powerful, that's 33,177,600 pixels that need to be rendered... You'd hypothetically need a 48.38 Teraflop Polaris GPU to render GT Sport at 8K.

I'm not aiming too low, I'm being realistic, you've simply lost the plot. The top end for next-gen systems is essentially a GPU which is 2x that of what is in the Xbox One X.
 
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